Rabbi Chaim Kanievsky and the modern State of Israel

More Zionist nonsense.
Regarding your quote:
“The Chazon Ish encouraged people from overseas to settle in Eretz Yisrael as it is a positive commandment, and he felt that Yiddishkeit was more prevalent and easier to practice there than in the diaspora.”

So, if you would actually be a better Jew, including less of a Zionist idolater, for example, if you were to move there, then that quote would make sense. But if moving to E”Y would increase your worship of the Zionist idol (or otherwise negatively impact your Judaism), then the Chazon Ish and Rav Chaim would obviously never dream of telling you to move there.

Incidentally, the greatest halakhic decisor of the “Modern Orthodox” of today, Rabbi Herschel Schachter, also stated as above, in a lecture he gave a number of years ago in honor of the Zionists’ idolatrous “Independence Day”.

Your “PERSONAL COMMENT” also seems odd.

First, it was the Satmar Rav who was the first (publicly and in a published sefer) who “advocated for dismantling the State of Israel “peacefully”.”
He wrote that the Zionists could go to the gentiles and tell them to take over without hurting any Jews CH”V, and the gentiles would figure out a way.

You asserted, with zero basis in fact and reality:
“Even if we ignore the fact that there is NO WAY to dismantle the state without killing MILLIONS OF JEWS, dismantling the State of Israel would certainly cause MILLIONS OF JEWS to leave Eretz Yisrael permanently.”

This is, of course, false. When the Soviet Union fell overnight, it did not result in any deaths of millions, and most still stayed put exactly where they were (except the ones who wanted to leave to Western countries, which is perfectly possible now under the Zionists). There is no reason to expect differently here.

@commonsaychel

If the moderators of this Coffee Room did their jobs correctly,
this “nutjob” would have been banned from this website

This is, of course, false. When the Soviet Union fell overnight, it did not result in any deaths of millions, and most still stayed put exactly where they were (except the ones who wanted to leave to Western countries, which is perfectly possible now under the Zionists). There is no reason to expect differently here.

[katans fantasies]

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LOL.
katan persists in parroting his blinders on approach , still living in the nineteenth century.

The world has seen many things happening since.

According to katan there was no Syrian civil butchering of each other, no civil Yemeni butchering of each other, no Iraqi , no Libyan, no Yazidi genocide…

And the list can go on.

I cannot find another title for katan than the following :

a broken tape recorder with no apparent independent thinking capabilities ….
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@non-political
“religious zionism” by any other name is nothing new: “dati leumi”, “shabtai tzvi”, “notzri”, “jews for j”, “jews for z”, “sons for molech”, its all permutations of the same stupid false moshiach.

As stated, the Satmar Rav noted that if the Zionists actually cared about Jewish lives (which they of course do not) then they could go to the gentiles and have them take over – bloodlessly. Your attempting to bring proofs to the contrary from various world conflicts of course do not prove anything.

[katans reality denying fantasies]

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It’s about time you realized that I do not care about the Z .

Not what they should have done .

Not about what they could have done .

I bring clear proofs to the nature of the monsters who surround us and how they behave towards their very own kin .

This is plain reality .

Within sight of anyone not lazy enough to open their eyes.

There is no reason whatsoever why they would be more kind toward the millions of your innocent brothers and sisters.

If you are still in doubt , the gruesome realities of oct 7 should force your willfully shut eyes , wide open.

Any supposed saying of SR of decades ago has no relevancy whatsoever to the stark reality right here in front of us.

If anything , it would be a question mark on SR ‘s feeling of obligation towards the well being of millions of yehudim in EY.

If SR would hold , like somejew fraudulently tries to propagate on these pages , that halachik p/n protections do not extend to yoshvei EY , because of the 3 shavu’ot, then SR ‘s supposed saying would make more sense.

As would your reality denying posts.

After all there are no real and valid halachik p/n concerns for yoshvei EY ….

So we do not need any reality based and really working solutions for the yoshvei EY . ….
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To Hakatan

You accuse Yankel Berel of being a Zionist idolater. Could you define what that means?

@yankel-berel, you wrote:

If SR would hold , like somejew fraudulently tries to propagate on these pages , that halachik p/n protections do not extend to yoshvei EY , because of the 3 shavu’ot, then SR ‘s supposed saying would make more sense.

I never said that “p/n” has anything to do with being “yoshvei EY”, i said that one cannot break the Shalosh Shevios for pekiach nefesh.

In (very) short, that means that if goyim – chas v’shulem – threaten masses of jews, our kosher responses are: make peace, give gifts, run away, and pray to G-d. What we are not allowed to do is organize an army and physically fight the enemy.

There is a lot more to say about both sides of the mutar/assur of the 3 shevios, but the foundational concept is as above. One cannot fight the non-Jews with violence because of pekiach nefesh, and that is both explicitly stated by Maharal but also blatantly obvious in context of the shevios that are fundamentally about dealing with the dangers of gulis (galus).

@qwerty613 – Many of us have asked Mr. Small to explain his position on several occasions and his response is to fire off the same tired statements from various Rabbonim. There is no substance to his arguments. He will not expain what within Zionism – and especially RZ – is idolatry. There are only claims that “Zionists worship a state, not G-d”, an argument relevant 80-125 years years ago, but not relevant today.

@Non Political – The RZ movement is not at war with the Charedi world. The Charedi world is titling at windmills a la Don Qixote.

SQUARE_ROOT – So come live here yourself, big talker… It’s somewhere between amusing and annoying for Yidden who actually live here to watch the nonsensical give-and-take between the armchair Zionists and anti-Zionists sitting thousands of miles away…

HaKatan – He wrote that the Zionists could go to the gentiles and tell them to take over without hurting any Jews CH”V, and the gentiles would figure out a way.

If he said that at all, as a לו יצוייר, I don’t know. תכלית למעשה he refused to participate in any demonstration or other activity where Arabs or other non-Jewish agitators would be involved. This fact is solidly documented. The geopolitical map has changed dramatically since 1948 (when there may well have been better alternatives, but that is a totally moot point now). Which ‘Gentiles’ would you suggest contacting now? The British aren’t interested in coming back. America has no desire or legal framework to take over a foreign country, despite Trump’s meshigassen about Canada and Greenland. The UN of course have proven themselves as being very pro-Jewish and effective peacekeepers… Maybe offer Erdogan a head start on rebuilding the Ottoman Empire? Or offer ‘Haman’ a new Persian-Iranian Empire? Seriously, get real. The Divrei Yoel זצוק״ל was not in favor of mass murder of Yidden רחמנא ליצלן. Try to get the idea.

> In (very) short, that means that if goyim – chas v’shulem – threaten masses of jews, our kosher responses are: make peace, give gifts, run away, and pray to G-d. What we are not allowed to do is organize an army and physically fight the enemy.

I understand that this was modus operandi of galus, but did your 3 shevuos extend to not fighting anytime, anywhere?

at the end, there is a halachik way to deal with shevuos via hatarat nedorim.
“when you made the shevua, did you think that there will be a Jewish state in Israel with an army and arrows that can hit Haman in his office 1000 mil away?”
“no”

somejew:

In (very) short, that means that if goyim – chas v’shulem – threaten masses of jews, our kosher responses are: make peace, give gifts, run away, and pray to G-d. What we are not allowed to do is organize an army and physically fight the enemy.

There is a lot more to say about both sides of the mutar/assur of the 3 shevios, but the foundational concept is as above. One cannot fight the non-Jews with violence because of pekiach nefesh, and that is both explicitly stated by Maharal but also blatantly obvious in context of the shevios that are fundamentally about dealing with the dangers of gulis (galus).

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Shulhan Aruch permits , no mandates , violating Shabbos to physically fight against an enemy that attempts to seize even ‘kash vateven’ —since it begins with kash and ends with lives (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim, siman 329).

Thats not an agada sefer . [without a specific source – just maharal – without the possibility to look it up]

That is THE ultimate halacha sefer for all klal yisrael for the last 500 years.
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An excellent proof by the way [according to you] – like the shut avnei nezer that the 3 shavu’ot are not binding lehalacha.
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@ AAQ

“there would have been a large socialist caliphate – from the river Nile to the Caspian sea, maybe even joining USSR.”

Exactly. Per an extensive report, published by MINITRUE, such a calaphite would be a wonderful place to live. The very embodiment of justice, security, religious tolerance, and a thriving economy that will benefit all its citizens.

This discussion was started by YWN’s biggest TROLL,
for the specific purpose of TROLLING.

If the moderators of this Coffee Room did their jobs correctly,
this discussion would never have been approved,
and even now, this discussion should be deleted by moderators.

I guess we were not zocher to more than a ten day break from this mindless cut and paste drivel

Somejew and katan are fraudulently dreing a kop.

They all claim that its preferable to rather let millions of innocent yehudim die , than be over on their corrupted version of non existent halachik shavu’ot.

This THE line dividing them and the majority of klal yisrael.

You can find any other weasel words to get out of acknowledging this true and extremely important halachik schism between us.

But this schism exists .

And is liable to have far reaching repercussions.

They should go back to the root of their mistaken thinking and carefully retrace their halachik deliberations to make one hundred percent sure their reasoning is foolproof.

Otherwise they will be guilty of megaleh panim batorah shelo kehalacha and on top of that be guilty of being mafkir damam shel harabim.

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Zushy, shoin, don’t establish a state, just move to those areas under current governments that are there. I am sure they’ll understand you.

Reminder

A] the following is somejew’s “psak” :

this is somejews language , copied and pasted :

In (very) short, that means that if goyim – chas v’shulem – threaten masses of jews, our kosher responses are: make peace, give gifts, run away, and pray to G-d. What we are not allowed to do is organize an army and physically fight the enemy.

[somejew]

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B] the following is maran habet yosefs psak in his halacha sefer the shulchan aruch :

halacha mandates , violating Shabbos to physically fight against an enemy that attempts to seize even ‘kash vateven’ —since it begins with kash and ends with lives (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim, siman 329).

Will repeat again :

mandates to …. physically fight against an enemy.

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This is the question mr somejew –

How do you fit A with B ?
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