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There is a universal like/dislike button at the bottom – it is called “submit”. It is not a Jewish way to have majority by vote in lieu of a discussion! I am OK with a vote button after, say, 70 opinions are expressed on a topic.
@CTL, yes, on the other hand, having history in other parts of the world, gives the rest of us appreciation for every side of sholom we get here. Or at least, should give us. Many people take the view that this is the Esav’s way to approach us now in a kind way, after trying the hard one.
BT movement is also due to Tzahal, it started in large after six day war that made some Jews re-evaluate their positions. And Chabad was there to help them.
I am not sure about EY, but most yeshivos in US, outside of Aish, etc do not accept BTs off the street. Most BTs happen during formative teenage/college years and many of them happen thru Chabad, there is no denial of that. So, L Rebbe must have done, wrote, something right! Also, according to my trusted L source, when L Rebbe was choleh and meshugas started, Rebbe’s secretariat was against it and was OK with publicizing that they have nothing to do with the meshugas.
> poskim are clear that one who only has a short amount of time to learn should learn halacha
I learned from a Lakewood Rav that dividing time in 3 parts – Torah/Mishna/Gemora – means that all 3 need to be finished at the same time, that is one needs more time spent on Gemora, and he meant all 3 areas in a general sense, that is Tanach/Halacha/Ability to reason, not daf yomi. I saw this in writing also, but can’t recall the source right now.
Interesting to see how CTL’s views differ from many others, where I think most of us here came in 20th century. Maybe gives us a just glimpse of how Spanish and German Jews felt when there were tragedies in their countries – after they were settled there for multiple hundreds of years… same goes to Arab/Polish/Teimenis ..
Avira, re: letter, my source is a footnote in a sefer that I am not 100% sure is unbiased. This is a full footnote, not abridged. So, if you need to check out further, you would need to find the letter in an archive. But N0 seems to be pointing to more accessible writings.
This learnt discussion is well above my head, but it convinced me to avoid Brooklyn on shabbos!
My question – given the subtlety of the issue and, in some cases, lack of clear psak – is it all 1/0? That is, if we have some allowing, others – not, would carrying be always considered hillul shabbos by those who do not allow, or it maybe something like “ok b’dieved” or “ok when going for a mitzva” or “ok when not observed by public”?
anon > , it’s funny but you don’t mention the largest reason for the need for a second salary. Yeshiva tuition
this is true, but you can look for additional options. Wife can stay at home while kids are small, if she likes it; no need for “universal pre-k”, kids can chant alef-beis at home and with friends. Some parents are educated enough to teach some of the classes also. There are cheaper schools with inferior general education that you can supplement at home with online classes or full-fledged schools. Time you have with your kids is worth the effort.
n0 > working people should learning more. Both during their work and by taking off more.
Sort of. I just would not call someone who learns and works a “working person”. He is a Talmid Chacham (if he is) who supports himself, or who does chesed and gets paid for it (that chesed may include to his wife so that she does not need to work, or to work that hard, or can buy herself a dishwasher or a second dishwasher or jewelry).
“During work” would be fine for builders and pub-owners but not for plumbers or lawyers.
Taking off more – this is where our society is not doing well. We have people working 80 or 0 hours a week, with no option in between. In part, this might be Americanization – goyishe Europeans work less and have longer vacations even without any Daas Torah. Maybe we need a part-timer movement. Recent trends in work-from-home are definitely helping – at least those who want to, but also creates new challenges: hope that nobody is billing clients and learning Mussar at the same time!
sechel> conmen practice was for the husband to work, and the wife to stay home,
My family still did that until kids grew up, and then my wife switched from stay-home to WFH.
frumkeit is also a made-up category.
Maybe people should spend more times involves in Torah & Mitzvos rather than thinking how to fit into categories.
Chaim Volozhiner was not yeshivish, he was Rosh Yeshiva.
I agree with those that this is cultural/aspirational. It may lead someone to be better than they’d be otherwise, or it may make someone think that dressing up the right way is good enough, no need to spend hours learning and years to improve your middos.
> Rav Ovadia is a Godol
He is a Gadol and a Chacham. As I wrote before gedolim are indirectly elected. Chofetz Chaim did not declare himself a godol. He travelled around, selling his seforim, giving discounts to groups who will learn them … when other Rabbis started sending their shailos to him and to pasken by his seforim, he became the godol.
CTL, thanks for a correction. My family was running businesses in areas with less developed markets. At one of the businesses, it became imperative to only use family as employees to avoid being arrested by out-of-control “workers” for “exploiting” them.
But being good to workers was not out of character for Jewish businessmen. A friend told me a story of his family’s business that was overtaken by Soviets, then Nazis, then again Soviets. When the owner came back home from Siberian labor camp, his family gone,, his factory equipment gone, the goyishe workers offered to work for a year for free if he were to rebuild the factory. He replied that he saw enough in the camp to understand that there will be no free business and left.
On Igros Moshe, the question is whether his position is applicable today. Of course, R Moshe opened this line of questioning by using sociological arguments himself.
Did the life changed enough to re-evaluate? I don’t know in this case, but I already remarked before about a clear case where IM is not used properly: in his argument (for those who are working and according to your reading are already baalei gaava!) that college is not necessary because one can lead normal life without it. That was said when college was an exclusive institution, when now “college” is a basic requirement for respectable employment and often reduces to remedial middle school. This is not a fantasy and not an emanation about R Moshe’s views on eruv as in the other thread, but a simple fact.
It maybe it is worth re-reading published polemic between R Dessler an (anonymous) R Schwab. If I recall correctly, R Dessler acknowledges that Frankfurter approach produces observant people, but not Talmidei Chachomim – and the latter requires Litvishe approach. Interestingly, by now, we have Litvishe yeshivas being recommended for everyone, albeit not in the Frankfurter approach. As relevant to this topic, pre-WW2 writings about exclusive learning are probably directed towards a tiny minority of Jewish community.
Avira, I was concerned that you misuse Rema with an emphasis that Torah debates presumes striving for Emes rather than showing off sources for your side. And the more you know, the more is your responsibility to stay with emes. This is not controversial, this is throughout mesora.
On Igros Moshe, there are several teshuvos. I looked just at one, I think he is suggesting several possible shitos – whether we accept that Rambam, and your conclusion is only under one of them.
I personally have no questions on R Moshe’s shita at the time & place he was. It is hard to put oneself into a different circumstance or to prove that to others, but I was, for about a year, part of a remote community that had no leadership and learning, and I spent a year running a school’s Jewish dept, leaving math to others, even as I was more qualified to run the math dept. I don’t even remember who was running the math dept, I had my priorities straight.
Sechel, I am sorry we all jumped on you at the same time! Consider it fortuitous that you were brave enough to ask a question and discovered a kesher to your Rebbe!
Avira,
I was going by a secondary source that, upon further reading, might not be fully unbiased. Looking for hard evidence, I see only one specific reference that is obscure, but meaning seems to be clear.letter to Joseph Apfel, 1956 – suggesting not to translate Frankel’s Darkei Hamishnah: I am afraid that zealots in England will attack you because they consider him min and apikoires because R Shimshon Rafael Hirsh battled against him.
or IM YD 4:36?
Avira, again, it is a problem – you quote YD 246 stopping in a middle of the sentence skipping – justification (so that people not see chacham working and disregard Torah) and asur for rich ones. And another _kulah_ (Rema’s words, sic!) for the ashirim to take willing donations to support Torah, etc, etc.
I agree that others disagree and the R Moshe and others recommend (to whom? to what degree?) the opposite, but we can’t even have a discussion if you can’t quote Sh’A straight. I am not ready for CNN style discussion where every side digs up their best arguments without overall concern for truth.
Not sure why you think I am suggesting to stop support Torah learning. To the opposite. Same as R Moshe writes 50-70 years ago that without full-time learners we will have no Torah left, I am among those who think that there will be no Torah left if we will not abandon extreme measures that might have been necessary and teach people derech eretz in all senses, wonderfully illustrated by your last words.
I think R Hirsh’s disagreement w/ scientific (Wissenschaft) method is not just w/ Frankel but also with other Orthodox school of R Ezriel Hildesheimer. R Hildesheimer though also considered Frenkel treif, so you may want to analyze their differences to understand Frankel positioning.
And even further, it seems that later German sources – R Weinberg – quote Frankel with more respect, maybe because there is less urgency in the machlokes. So, it may be true that at the same time, Frankel initiated a movement that let people astray, and have some valid points to make.
Why is this important? Maybe because we should not through babies into the mikvah: just because someone disagreeable mentions an idea, does not always mean that the idea is wrong.Avira, maybe you are talking about IM YD 2:109
If we want to compare attitude of inheriting positions to old times, see Shmuel Alef 2:22,
Shmuel Alef 8:3, Divrei Hayamim II 12:1 how it worked for those with nevuah. Some interpret even Gen 27:41 and similar as a caution against strict inheritance rules. Gemora takes yichus into account in Berachos 27b, but see Menahos 53a, Moed Katan 25a.YS> However, they did choose to not publish many letters and speech transcripts for a variety of reasons. There’s no dishonesty, it’s just that things meant for a 19th century German Ba’al HaBatisch audience are not necessarily the type of Torah that resounds today. … Nor did he have the idea that a Rebbe is no longer needed, since we have his writings and everyone can just learn from them. Yiddishkeit needs teachers. No one can learn Torah from books alone.
1) R Soloveichik criticize modern man for conquering the space, but losing connection with time, while the Jews can relate to Avraham Avinu, etc. – but we got to admit that our times seem to be changing much faster, probably appropriate as zman moschiach is accelerating. So, translating R Hirsh from 19th to 21st century is nothing comparing with what to do in our days. Thus, R Moshe’s hatan can (controversially) claim that R Moshe would be OK with his grand-daughter learning Gemora ..
2) If we pre-screen Talmidei Chachomim for appropriate opinions to our times, we lose the sense of that dynamic. It is instructive to see evolution of R Hirsh’s thought in response to challenges of his time – to learn how we should be doing it now. This is why Bavli is learned (al pi Maharal) – because it gives us a methodology of thinking, not just the psak halocha. We need the same in modern environment. I do understand temptation to present modern Torah as easy digestible static Mishna – R Hirsh is this and R Aharon is that, but we don’t pasken from the Mishna and do not spend most of our lives learning it.
CTL, my family background is somewhat similar to yours, but your family were smart (or pessimistic) enough to do their business in US where they can afford showing their chesed side. One of my ancestors shared ownership of his businesses with the workers (presumably at the early time of growing worker movement) and soon was kicked out of the business. Next generations learned the lesson and tended to do the opposite – have family members in business. Your family also had family member in business: voted D- and shared their wealth, but did not socialize the ownership, right? None of the “you did not build that” thing?
n0, you do need to have an ego to run for office. Most of them have a good and bad tzad. Bill Clinton who, for his times, was considered a bor, was very excited about public policy, not less than in his other tzad. Maybe T is less polished than others (or does not feel a need to be as polished). Biden (not even touching on any allegations here) ran for president his whole life – and did not really articulate any passion when he finally got in. What was he doing it for? Did he forget along the way? I suspect he decided to run this time just to prove Obama wrong for dismissing his VP advices and his prospects for running.
see Sotah 21, Rambam hilhos teshuva 10:2, Netivos Olam, Netiv Ahavat Hashem perek 2, Alei Shur v. 2 p. 152
Avira,
you need to be more clear where you quote Sh’A and where you introduce other ideas, because you are not just confusing me, you are confusing yourself. He is not saying “for example, a Rav”. He specifically says – Rav of the City. If someone else says something that you want to rely on, shoin, bring that quote.I agree though that the quote may not be straightforward. Rema starts with “yesh omrim” and then says “Rav of the City – this is done in all medinos Isroel”. Either, he includes only Ashkenazim in all medinos isroel, unlikely, or Rav of the City is paid everywhere – despite Mehaber’s original shita. And what then does Mehaber mean? So, maybe Rema brings Rav of the City as a proof to demonstrate that there is no absolute prohibition for healthy people. Is the sky the limit? Rema does not say.
But even according why can’t at least some people try to do things an ideal way? If you are inspiring to be a Talmid Chacham, why not try doing an hour a week? Maybe sell esrogim once a year, or peddle your own seforim, like Chofetz Chaim did?
PS I am not consistent here though – I get ads from an ehriche local yeshiva offering free car washes from the students and I do not have a heart to use the service. I’d rather force my own kids.
n0, a fair point. It was more popular to get by in older time by doing simpler things. I don’t think it was completely easy – there are many gemoras discussing details of farming, and it is clear that even what we consider the most boring job of a farmer (which maybe 80% of people were engaged in) has a lot of things to think about. If you think, when we talk about “Creative” jobs (emulating the Creator), the farmer is literally the one who creates new plants from seeds. Maybe that is the reason we have so many mitzvos for the farmers – from bikurim to hamotzi – so that we don’t get carried away by our own creativity. There is a reverse joke also: a farmer shows his field and is reminded – you did this with G-d’s help. He says – sure, sure – and then shows uncultivated land – and this is what He did without me. But back to your main argument:
so, first, it is still possible to earn money while keeping your mind on the Gemora – gas station, store attendant … there is nothing embarrassing here. See R Yitzele Peterburger above. Maybe moral hazard is in play – people can get more in terms of money and insurance from social program and other support than from earning a living. This is a well-documented problem in black community.
2nd, not everyone earned their living in simple jobs. Merchants (not every socher is smart, pirkei avos). Proper ones would limit their activity to what is needed. I heard a story about Persian Jews who would travel for 2 weeks to get some rare carpets, then come back, sell them, and learn the rest of the year. Can this be done in modern professions? For sure, accountants can work tax season only. Maybe lawyers and real estate agents can.
3rd, in our times, it is possible to choose a kosher profession, where you are not wasting time to earn livelihood but actually doing something that Hashem wants you to (in fact, even a farmer does, but you can always argue that a goy next door can do that). How about being a surgeon, a pediatrician, invent something in medical technology [reportedly, when someone in Slobodka made fun of Einstein, Alter called him (a student, not Albert) an idiot]. I asked a Rav whether a surgeon deserves recognition for chesed, he said – if his motivation is for chesed, not for money (he can still get paid). So, it is possible.
Now, is any of the above easy? Not, of course. Ok, so these are harder mitzvos.
anonymous seem to be right about two JTS-es. Wiki says
“Jewish Theological Seminary Association” was founded with Morais as its President in 1886 as an Orthodox institution to combat the hegemony of the Reform movement.[5] The school was hosted by Rabbi Henry Pereira Mendes’ Congregation Shearith Israel, a sister synagogue to Mikveh Israel.
In October 1901, a new organization was projected entitled the “Jewish Theological Seminary of America,” with which the association was invited to incorporate.
R Morais was already niftar and Rev Mendes stepped down either in 1901 or 1902.
About 100 days after Schechter’s appointment, the Agudath Harabbonim formed, principally in protest, and declared that they would not accept any new ordinations from JTS, though previous recipients were still welcome.
Anyway, given that Schehter came from a Chabad family, we are firmly back to the topic, and let Chabadnikim explain how one of their own founded JTS-2.
Dear Mod, I am very sympathetic with your situation – you are the only one(s) have the pain reading all the stuff that does not pass the thresholds. I still follow my (Kotzker) Rebbe who suggested that the “best” way to achieve sholom is by throwing emes away …
in this case, I am particularly heartbroken that you chose to keep my worthless opinion posted, while censoring long list of references to Tanach and Gemora that I collected. I am sad that, admittedly, my in-you-face way of posing what I think is a serious question, you felt a need to delete the words of scripture as you felt the honor of your teachers needed protection.
I feel like Eli Hakohen, whose story I referred to – he survived the bad news about his family, but not about Hashem’s ark … I can only think that you mis-copied-pasted and meant to delete my opinion and post Tanach quotes. If this is what happened, pls remove my words and restore the words of Torah.
If it was in my face it wouldn’t have been a problem. Your ‘long list of references to Tanach’ are often, as above, followed by opinion on what probably was meant or flippantly applying a tzadik to your present day scenario in ways lacking respect of people of their stature. It was those opinions which I had deleted.
Thanks for asking.
I also wonder at the quality of modern leaders who are able to educate their offspring to become capable rebbes and rabonim.
As you have become bolder in your cynical comments regarding halacha, rabbis, leaders and frum community members it has been more difficult to approve your posts with a mere edit. Please try to curb your negativity toward Torah life, or better yet find someone who can help you understand it better.
There is a ref above to halakha favoring Rav’s son for the position. Could you refer to this halakha, I’m interested to hear it. I am familiar though with multiple references favoring meritocracy: R Yehuda refusing to see someone who is “20 gen from Ezra” – I’ll see him on his own merits, but if not …
selections of Roshei yeshiva based on comparison of ocean v. harif. There is a gemora where two T’Ch are taken to burial to EY over a narrow bridge, and the idea that Rav ben Rav has priority over Rav ben non-Rav is condemned.Yes, there is a concern of non-selection of R Akiva instead of Raban Gamliel because of his lowly yichus.
> RCA passed a resolution in 1948 permitting microphones
It took time to get consistency in psak over electricity. See early psak about refrigerators. It is not necessarily about not following mesorah, but a normal situation with new physics. Were Rashi to be suddenly confronted with electric devices, we don’t know how he would originally pasken. You can imagine tosfos having a field day.
Avira, of course, I just had one. I am just suggesting that we need to deal with non-perfect situations. And sholom might indeed override the concerns. And the Rav who suggests it is not necessarily “meikel” but can be simply correct in balancing concerns.
At the end, maybe the kid could bring a loupe and inspect his own salad.
Avira> point is that halacha allows and encourages taking tzedaka to learn. I showed you that in plain words of shulchan aruch and rema
I am looking back, I don’t see how Avira transfers allowing accepting of support for a Rav and for a sick person to an average kollel member. Also, not clear from that quote – is it accepting tzedokah, or accepting support in the form of salary for a Rav in lieu of time he is not working. And accepting tzedoka from non-Jews. First, you seem to be stretching the ruling too far, and second you are not acknowledging your stretching.
and, at the end, there is also a question what is wrong with following S’A l’hathila approach for healthy people – work a little and learn the rest? This is a problem similar to what Chabad has – not only the approach is questionable, but the insistence that other approaches are invalid. It may be a problem inherent to all modern mass movements – you need to convince and motivate the followers and the easiest way is to call everyone else hazerim. Ain’t emes though, so you won’t get Hashem’s haskomah.
> says anything about Mussar as Rav Yisroel Salanter explained it
Someone already asked R Salanter about this. He said – in the Gemora. Questioner: I can’t find your answers in my gemora. R Salanter: they are in _my_ gemora.
conservatives started in Europe, I think.
Avira, of course, but so is rov cabbages, at least the ones I buy. But coffee seems to be not aware of all sicknesses cows might have, those mentioned in gemora and the modern ones caused by their unhealthy lifestyle and modern stress.
coffee, you do realize that you probably ate some treifa from whatever hashgoha. I presume your shochet checked the lungs, but how about all other possible problems that Gemora mentions?
Did your cow went a full physical? did she have heart problems, high blood pressure, diabetes, covid? Did she eat fruits and vegies and exercised daily according to modern recommendations? Likelihood that each particular cow was already treifa is pretty high. And the more different cows you consumed – the higher the chance. If you ate a hot dog – you probably ate pieces of 100 different cows in one bite.
I also vote that historically C- came from R-. That does not deny that there is some gray zone between MO and C.
A better question is – where did R come from? Usual response is to blame Haskala, Napoleon, etc. But why we do not see anyone from Bnei Brak becoming Reform currently? Because, over time, we developed counter-measures and defenses. We did not have those defenses when R started.
We had Rabbis denouncing them, we had R Hirsh trying to defend remnants of his community, but probably not enough. R Salanter thought that nothing could be done. At some point, he went to Western Europe, abandoning Lita, saying that it is possible to affect people who are at the bottom but not the ones who are still on the way from the top to the bottom. I am still not sure that there was no better way – modern yeshivas, not just one volozhin, chabad houses, etc. So, you can say that 18-19th century O- Jews caused, in part, Reform.
Sq Root, where does he not get the credit? Sure in the eyes of Hashem and probably his friends also.
And how is it different from a regular FFB person who goes to the yeshiva after high school?
Is it that he (a) pays and loses money v. kids whose parents pay? (b) he chose himself rather than under parental and social pressure?AAQ>> “BLACK-HA(UGH)TINESS”
Avram > <vehemently disagrees>Ugh, I thought it was a good pun. If it does not apply to you, then it is not intended for you!
I am referring here to people changing their family/community mesorah based on some theories, however elevated. Why does a grandfather in a turban or in a beret need to endure his grandson in a hat just because the grandson won’t find a shidduch otherwise?
here is a related mesorah: R Naftali Amsterdam, who actually had a smicha, was dressing so lowly that his wife complained to his teacher, r Salanter and the Rav paskened that while preventing haughtiness is definitely a good middah, but doing what a wife wants is chesed that overrides working on your middos, so he somewhat upgraded his dress code.
When R Amsterdam (who, I think, never was in Amsterdam) arrived to EY unannounced to prevent excitement and went to the house of his chaver R Itzele Peterburger (who taki was a Rav in that city while on vacation from his humbleness), the neighbors said – Hello Rabbo, to which he replied – I am not a Rabbi.
Now, my question is: why did they know he is a Rabbi if he was not dressed in a black hat?
as we are speaking about chumros, what do you think about stopping on a freeway rest area and using a bathroom in a McDonalds? R Yaakov Kamenetsky has a chumra about it. What do you think?
It is not automatic to have one teacher. R Meir had two (or three) teachers. He tried out w R Akiva first, did not hap it, went to R Yishmael, and then went back to R Akiva. But these two illustrious teachers were not enough – he would also run after Acher’s horse on Shabbos. And then he married Talmida Chachama, and learned from her also.
Yserb > We cannot just read books (no matter how holy) and have that be our Rebbi, we need a person who is dynamic and understands his talmid and the world.
Yes, this is exactly what I was trying to express, thanks for clarifying it. I am comparing a written approach (there is a nice greek word for that that I misremember) and oral, with latter being passed through the people.
Avira > Every lther talmid in the world will tell you that he said it was bedieved.
If this were about eruvin, your argument has weight. but about milk – no. One might think that the sons, who are Talmidei Chachamim, were exposed multiple times to situations where milk was discussed at home. Even if they did not halav hacampaniesat home, I am sure there was a simcha somewhere where this was an issue.
coffee, interesting stories.
In the first one, Rav may understand better than the kid how important relationship with mechutonim are long-term, so it might be time for the kulos. All concerns about mechutonim kashrus level shold have been addressed before the shiduch.
In the 2nd story, Rabonim may have relied on hazoka – everything from that mshgiach or around them is always kosher. And maybe, also, any sofek could create a medauraite problem of ruining the simcha.
what was that about a signed letter that was forged (i.e. had parts that were not shown to the signer)?!
If true, this is beyond the Pale, and these people should be put in cherem and sent from the Pale to Siberia. Where is the Czar when we need him?!We insist on eating hot food to show we are not tzdukim. Maybe same applies to eruv?
One interesting argument I see in this discussion – if some shita is constructed in a way that invalidates all eruvin (or, if I can expand – invalidates what was normal practice before) – then it is apikoirosus, not chumras. Thus, if there is a kosher eruv, one must carry. There is probably a loner list of activities that one must similary do because of people asurim what used to be matir. I’ll leave it to others to suggest them.