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huju > There is not much that can be done, and Biden has done them.
The first and main thing he did – he discouraged investment in oil industry. I am not going to list specific examples, it is all of the taken together. Current investment requires a hope of future returns.
Second – he (his state dept thinkers) had a theory that we should not scare Putin too much at the beginning. “If we escalate, and then he disregards, then we have nothing left short of nuclear, better start a little, so that he will be afraid of the rest”. This was a spectacular failure, we let Putin down by making him think that he can get away with murder.
3. Related – rescinding opposition to NordStream 2, prolonging German commitment to Russian hydrocarbs and, again, letting Putin think that Europe will have to listen to his diktat.
4. Destroying relationship with Saudis right when we needed their help.
5. Starting inflation 6. Denying inflation. 7. Boasting that inflation is over before it is over risking prolonging it.
> Anyone like him.
It says – many tried to be like him and failed.
youall should realize that nobody will value your group by the seforim you say you learned, but by your behavior.
Could not buy gas today because I bought bread today.
catch > It is unhealthy to allow yourself to become so immersed in political commentary that you lose sight of your own true values.
I third this. r Twersky talks about Yitzhak understanding that this is not Esav by voice. That is, Esav, despite his respectful behavior towards his Father, still was talking to him harshly. He, apparently, could not discard the language he was used to with his friends. R Tersky concludes that we should be careful not to bring language from the outside inside our houses. Same applies to YWN.
And I did hear people in summer camps in Catskills some time ago talking to R Kamenetsky there.
Gadol, a good question. I do not hear much about going to vacations from most Rabbis I know. Usually, a reason to cancel a class is a bar mitzva or a trip to Israel. I heard descriptions of summer trips to mountains when their kids were young. Maybe I am in a wrong crowd.
Old yishuv had high spiritual achievements, but their economic situation was dire. They were collecting for poor in EY all over Europe, whether poor or rich. I believe part of the lack of economic prospects was hostility of local population, limiting what and where Jews could do business.
If you do want to blame Zionists, I think a case can be made that they put priority on ideological land acquisition v. economic development. At some point in 20-30s, the donors wanted to spend money on developing Tel-Aviv into a manufacturing center that would create jobs and bring more people in. Instead, money were spent on kibutzim that were not economically productive.
Looking back at Delta/Omicron period (Sep 21 – Feb 22) – that was the longest high-death period in US (taking 1K out of 3K per mln total covid deaths) was the time when boosters started:
US started at significant numbers in October and took it to 30% of population
Israel had 40% of population boosted by Oct 1,
UK started as slow as US but got to 60% of population, others similar or higher.It is suggestive that slow/lack of boosters contributed to higher mortality during this period, but not a clear proof: UK had peaks before that could have contributed to immunity, some other countries – Poland, Hungary also had peaks (but much shorter ones).
Avram,
I do realize Bourla is presenting his side of the story, of course. The thing about such books is that the books is visible and personal, it is not a casual interview, so authors generally adhere to facts that are known publicly or to other people outside of their close circle. So, I would trust him on such facts. To his credit, for example, he brings put a couple (not much more 🙂 of favorable episodes about Trump/Kushner/Bibi, despite overall feeling that his politics is different. And he brings negative stories during Biden admin, but does not connect dots to the top…As I said, I do not recall now whether he was attacked privately or publicly about the booster and he mentions that they turned around quickly after digesting Israeli data. I think it is a believable story illustrating a mixture of emotions and political leanings interacting with facts and responsibilities.
This story also means, exactly as you say, that before getting Israeli data, Pfizer thought that the vaccine is effective against Delta – and it partially was.
Lostspark > I do not have enough time to do research on every decision I make that’s why I’m supposed to trust professionals. Professionals have taken advantage of that trust enough times that the unwashed working and uneducated masses are becoming wise to it.
Lostspark, I am with you on that. I see 2 separate questions here: specific trust on covid, especially during early lack of information, and general trust of authorities.
On first one, I know some Rabbis who found a reliable frum public helath professional and listened and referred questions to him. For me, R Meyer Twersky’s letter sounded right – in the time of confusion, it is not enough to follow one doctor, but you need to select a safest of several opinions.
generally, I think, the problem of, especially American, medicine, is a rule-based approach. You give a pill or cut something off and the problem is solved. Nedorim ~50 bring up a doctor who refuses to treat a patient who is eating a bad diet for a sick person – a hard squash. So, you would often need to combine seichel with medical advise. For example, I was told by an observant allergologist that certain test should not be done – it will produce a long list of products to avoid without serious benefit.
At the same time, modern medicine produced undeniable benefits and the testing procedures in US are working. Many researchers complain that they are too slow and expensive delaying treatments.
So, you need to look at the data case-by-case, you can’t make overall judgment.
Syag > So you didn’t really mean we should think for ourselves. You meant we should make a decision that had sources that had logical support in your eyes
Right. Sorry for the confusion. I define “think” along this dictionary definition “using thought or rational judgment; intelligent”. If you mean “think for ourselves” as “being free to have any opinions we want”, this is not what I was talking about.
I think I quoted above a recent analysis from Yale showing higher mortality among Republican voters after introduction of the vaccine [developed under Republican president]. I don’t know whether this is a fully veritable paper, but I am not sure what “thinking” can be done ignoring such evidence.
Again, as I described, it well may be that you live in the information environment where other information sources are used to the degree that contradicting information is simply discounted.
But back to my original statement that you guys are responding. If you can provide an alternative history of your thinking on this topic, I’ll be happy to hear.
Avira, as I said, you are probably right, I used incorrect term, thanks for the correction.
To clarify, his sevorah was not to eat healthy, but he was given money for the purpose of improving health, so spending his money otherwise would be geneiva.
As to eating healthy, I pointed above to Nedorim seemingly approving of a doctor who refuses to treat patient who is eating things inappropriate for a sick person.
Syag > You torched every one of us who thought for ourselves.
Syag, I recall I was delving into tens of references that people were posting here trying to see what those positions are about. There were other posts that took positions without much logical support. I actually asked a number of them what is the source of these opinion and generally did not get answers.
There was Ottoman empire that enforced the law. See a book by Simon Sebbag-Montefiore “Jerusalem” for a good overview and references to history of the city, you might find references to this question there.
n0, you may be right: ambience is easily observable. So if hashgaha pays attention to it, and clients see and confirm that, then actual kashrut might become secondary. Also, any effort is not free. If hashgaha, or the business, spend more on that part of the business, then either it becomes expensive or, more likely, corners are cut somewhere else.
Lostspark > Please tell me how I should think as I’m not qualified to do so for myself.
Someone got the point! Thanks. This is exactly what I am (gently) suggesting – think for yourself. Do not rely on random opinions, including mine.
jackk > You must have more evidence than a talk show segment that by Trump in 2016 saying to black voters “what do you have to lose”, they all became republicans.
not all. Just some. It seems to be an accepted wisdom among sociologists. Look it up.
Avram, your timeline sounds similar to what I recall from Bourla’s book. Delta started like June, maybe by July Israelis reported to Pfizer their findings that vaccine effectiveness against Delta falls after several months which was not the case with Wuhan covid. Then, Pfizer announced a booster idea (probably, several weeks before official request). So, Bourla says they immediately got angry responses (I do not recall now – public or private) as this seemingly did not match official line that Biden defeated the virus. But after Pfizer shared the data, gov accepted the logic. A classical case of emotional partisan reaction later over-ridden by seichel.
while on the topic, there is a feeling of total breakdown of communications under Biden. First year is full of discussions with Warp Speed, Trump calling, Kushner resolving problem with some officials. During Biden times, Bourla is stuck dealing with specific gov people with no calls to Biden or Kamala or Hunter. And it is clear who Bourla likes. Biden told him that he knows other people who lost family in the Shoah and Dr. Jill smiled at him in England …
In addition to the above, US trade rep called him at home before going public with giving away Pfizer’s IP to the “world”. Bourla argued against. Bourla’s teenage son listened to the conversation and commented afterwards: “do you realize that she called you just to check the box she talked to you, she did not care about the points you were raising”. Bourla pickup up the phone and called
Biden and resolved the question. Oops, did not happen.Avram > it’s fun to create broad theories with preconceived notions and little actual information while accusing your opponents of doing the same!
fair question, but I was really struck by similarity of messages and also by intensity. I will save you rehashing actual information, we discussed this here before. Say, “most dying now are vaccinated”. Obviously, as most, esp elderly are vaccinated, and those who were not already had virus so many times. etc. Not saying that all arguments were obviously ridiculous. Some were plausible, if you are charitable. (some athlete just died! vaccinated?! myocarditis?! ). But, when every say third argument is totally off-the-charts, it is sad.
common > Democatic Senate committee just released
could you summarize? I am not gonna to read that
common > so now i have gone from being a mazik to being uneducated?
Avram > but I don’t listen to radio talk shows.has v’shalom, did not want to offend. I have traced how this info-virus was unleashed (and I am sure Chinese and Russian fake fbook accounts helped). Now, after the virus circulates, you can get it from “community transmission” (remember when first covid cases were traced to overseas thavel, and then not). So, heimishe people who would shutter if you suspect them of having a treifa phone, who speak only mama loshen – learn the “ideas” from someone who heard it from someone who received a fbook message.
And, of course, that fbook message was not a random ad, but fbook uses all internal information it has about that person to produce something that that person is most likely to accept/like/forward, or whatever you do with fbook messages.
SN is asking an old question – can a group break a minhag of their ancestors and later insist that their minhag needs to be respected.
I saw this mocked in a short-term: when a kibutznik asks a RY to send the child home because he is not following minhag of his father. The response – he _is_ following minhag of his father, that is completely rejecting what the father was doing!
One might argue that a couple of hundred years, as SN does, that a couple of hundred years is not much different.
About a group: Maybe you mean Chofetz Chaim 10:12?
general principle, when making aveira about a group that is impossible to identify (say, using false weights for many customers), the teshuva is to provide public services, such as water fountains. So, maybe providing free seforim to tzahal will work …
Avira, you may be right. I am not sure what is considered commercial during 19th century travel. I imagine, small inns and bakeries. Probably not pas akum, not sure.
I am not, H’V, telling people not to go to vacations, just suggesting not to see this is a mitzva or dvar kavua.
Just because your neighbors are going and it is “a thing” to do. I saw one smart school asking on the application – what camps/vacations did you children go to? Seemingly as background info on how much financial help you would require. Maybe it is the usual thing.
As I mentioned recently, if you quote a pasuk directly, an Yid will admit to it, whatever his level of stubbornness or ignorance is! Mi kamocha …
A historical tidbit: doctors recommended to Netziv to go on vacation to the lakes. He ran away from there back to Volozhin, he could not stand idleness …
On the other hand, R Grozdensky and others were “summering” away from Vilno towards Grodno (Druskene), but probably formed a community there so were not totally idle.
Also, R Salanter took a trip to the “waters” and even ate pas akum bread there. he explained that he would be ok to eat stale pas yisroel bread instead, but he was gifted money to improve his health and using money to eat bad food instead would be stealing. I did not know his source before, but it seems to be Nedorim 50 where a doctor sees the patient being fed with hard food and refuses to treat him: what is the point of treating a patient if he has an unhealthy diet!? Modern doctors should take this to heart.
By mistake (AKA hashgaha) my finger got stuck on a radio talk show in the car, and it helped me understand where is common & other like posters getting so worked up: in five minutes, I heard Fauci/someone died from myocarditis – VACCINATED?/most dying now are unvaccinated/why didnt they test the vaccine!?/ multiple times… I give the credit where it is due – posters here at least try to have a dialog about it rather than just shouting like this guy and his callers.
The explanation for this informational virus seems simple: Trump invited a lot of working/minority voters that were former happy recipients of the “donations” that Dems took from Republicans by asking them “what do you have to lose”, etc. So, now “uneducated” are becoming a arger segment of R- votes and plenty of pols and entertainers address these voters with populist rhetoric. I don’t think it made things worse overall for the country – average citizen IQ (hopefully) did not decrease, it is just that before these people were in the lefty craziness world and I never heard them, and now they moved to the right. Democracy has it’s price, I guess …
Where in the Torah does it say to take vacations? (beyond shabbat, chagim, shalosh regalim, shmita)?
It says in my siddur in the kiddush: “sheshes yamim saavod”. Not sure whether this is counted as a separate mitzva.
rw, the rules of law allow for attacking military even if they behind population, but do not allow attacking population at large. Bibi and Trump seem to have the right idea – work with other Arab countries that have plenty of other reasons to cooperate with Israel. This will eventually decrease Palis role as a symbol of Arab/Muslim unity (as they ignore all Arab-on-Arab atrocities) and will bring Palis to accept some reasonable co-existence.
I don’t think we here should be giving advice to Jewish ladies how to do the shidduch. They are getting the Jewish nation going for centuries despite all the hardships caused by goyim and Jewish men.
n0, I live “OOT” as you’d call it. Thus, I meet all kind of people out of their natural environment or see them during brief stays there. I talked about a number of issues with people with various, but do not interrogate them about every minhag. I generally separate people by their middos , learning, not whether they wear same socks as I do (confession: _some_ socks preferred, I am not 100% open minded).
re: disappointment – cosmetics are allowed & encouraged, won’t they lead to a future disappointment?
so, just need to make sure that disappointment does not happen before people learn more about each other, as Syag says. Thus, the pictures should be as good as the cosmetics – and not better – to prevent early disappointment.All I know about cosmetics is from Gemora, and it says that cosmetics are different according to income (even as we try to make some of it affordable to the poorest ladies by allowing peddling cosmetics). Thus, a Talmid Chacham can see pictures and presume that cosmetics is of the same quality (see above) and thus make judgement – how long the shver will be able to support the learner.
> trolling MIGHT mean saying things to intentionally anger other people who posted messages.
like if I say that SQUARE_ROOT is usually not rational.
It is an interesting question to what degree Yidden were learned. Of course, it changed over time and country. Difference between Vilna in 17th century and Morocco 10th century might be more than between Lakewood and Tom’s River.
Stam, a lot of gemoras discuss various behaviors of population that are not very learned. Say, making nedorim left & right seemed to be quite popular. It seems that classicial amei haaretz were at least “culturally Jewish” – we presume that they did maaser but not sure that they did. To appreciate that – would you say about a Reformer or a socialist – you presume they keep kosher but just in case, I won’t eat there? unfortunately, not …
I think one presumption is that Am H. knows Tanach (without Rashi) but not Mishna. Thus, you should admonish people if your words have a clear support in a posuk (not just a hint0 and, presumably, they’ll listen.
You can probably get a better picture if you go through Gemora cases where Rabbis make a takanah based on what majority of people will do or accept.
As to realities, I mentioned here before R Moshe’s daughter’s shidduch according to my reconstruction of minor missing details: apparently she identified the boy in her college, found out that his father is on beis din with her father, approached the boy in the library with a chemistry question; after chemistry was identified, she hinted to her father; who approached the boys father, who, in turn, approached the son, who assured the father that shidduch is already a done deal.
CTL ,some things are just ok to ignore, do not think that any readers will take it seriously.
When we try to reconstruct “traditions”, I think we have a confusion here: some quote how it was in their families or around them, others claim halachik positions from previous generations that probably tried to make those real traditions closer to the halachik ideal. So, both are right.
Your friends, and your parents’ friends, could be intermediaries. Mine were.
It is legit for someone (Alter Rebbe) to celebrate being freed from (Russian) prison – and for his students to continue celebrating. And for other friends to join a l’chaim. What’s the big deal?
Syag > I was just commenting on your import of secular education.
I thought I explained my position at length. I consider secular education useful for a large part of Jewish community in order to find the right parnasa and be productive members of Jewish community and society in general. I think this is not against Torah values and there are authorities that hold same way. I am less confident that there is no risk sending kids to college and thus I am all for making college safe – Jewish/local/online colleges, or at least colleges with strong communities.
Syag > And by the way, “i didn’t feel anything” is what people say to a third party when they don’t want to tell you what they are thinking
I agree here. I hear from people that they are under pressure not to sound too picky, so they are coming up with such answers. And also we should nit press ladies into marriage. They will be mostly the ones raising the kids looking, and behaving, like the gentleman they are planning to marry. They have a right to like those middos.
Avira > take a look at the kind of young people who are working/going to college and not yeshiva under 25. they’re people you would agree are not very religious, by and large.
this is a good question. Are you looking at whole Jewish campus population? Then, yes. But it is not campus that made them less religious. The question is about observant people who go to college. I know quite a number who are observant, some are learning while in college, going to campus or community shuls. I did not meet people who came to campus and stop being observant because they heard something from the lecturers, although maybe I am just not in places where I could meet such. When I was in college some time ago, the campus Rav was of the opinion that kids are of certain condition before they come to campus, some are ready to go off-the derech and just waiting to get out of the house (he was dealing mostly with MO). Maybe you mean that in certain communities, the learners are respected and those who do not succeed go to college and thus are already vulnerable.
again, my experience is biased to mostly seeing college-educated observant people, and not those who go there and do not come out well. What is your experience? I presume you see more of the input into the system.
ujm, we indeed bring a story of Yochanan as an extreme example, not as a typical case. We also have an educational system that learned from the previous times.
Avira > what do you think happens after a 19 year old leaves seminary and goes straight to college and work? … unless the girl or boy does something to fortify themselves,
By this time, B’H the young person had about 15 years of Jewish schooling. Should we expect that they are able to fortify themselves by this time (I presume parents, friends and community did not abandon them)? I would understand that there could be some difficult cases, but the majority should be able to withstand going to classes or work.
There is a question why Yaakov needed to go to the yeshiva after learning with his Father. The answer is that Shem was teaching how to live in a goyishe world. So, maybe those yeshivos whose graduates are not ready to face the world, should add such subjects.
Avira > what do you think happens after a 19 year old leaves seminary and goes straight to college and work? … unless the girl or boy does something to fortify themselves,
By this time, B’H the young person had about 15 years of Jewish schooling. Should we expect that they are able to fortify themselves by this time (I presume parents, friends and community did not abandon them)? I would understand that there could be some difficult cases, but the majority should be able to withstand going to classes or work.
There is a question why Yaakov needed to go to the yeshiva after learnign with his Father. The answer is that Shem was teaching how to live in a goyishe world. So, maybe those yeshivos whose graduates are not ready to face the world, should add such subjects.
> as someone who has previously mentioned that he has traded Torah values for higher education I can see why that would be your assumption.
I am not sure what is the point of the above insult, but I am actually asking questions here, not making any assumptions. See question marks at the end of the sentences.
the shadchan goes to the war “with the army [s]he has”.
What is usually the basis for proposed matches? Are shadachnim capable of evaluating middos? Are potentially abusive husbands matched to strong-fisted women?
How do potential kallos and their families evaluate effect of learning on the bachur? Does someone in yeshiva gives objective feedback if someone comes late, takes other’s place in shul, etc or is it generic “he is a wonderful bochur” for everyone?
19th century Republicans were not on TV. The way I learnt indeed that when TV came up with the colors, they put Dems as blue so not to associate them with the Soviet Reds.
There was a shidduch crisis 60 years ago – it was Jews marrying other peoples. The alleged “shidduch crisis” is not about how to approach people, it is about rapid growth of the community, B’H, and thus, there are more boys than girls 3 years younger. Even without shadchanim, girls would want more mature chatanim, and boys would want younger kalos.
I am thinking one of the problem of the current system is that there are many people who do this professionally that may disregard matches that are not advantageous for the shadchan. A solution is simple – try helping singles find a match through your own contacts.
I mean BideNero