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Rav Moshe in Even ho’ezer 62 uses the “tarud bemelachto” heter to allow women to swim with a male lifeguard, while saying that wives of talmidei chachamim should not do so. Does he mean to allow a man to have such a job? Possibly not.
1 – brisk doesn’t have its own standard. You don’t have to be a top bochur to get in; you have to come from a Yeshiva which is alloted a certain amount of slots and have a recommendation from the rosh Yeshiva thereof. There are guys in brisk who aren’t very into learning, don’t keep sedorim, etc .. The vast majority are big bnei torah, but there’s not much hashgocha there. You make your own goals, standards, and choose who you associate with.
The top guys in brisk aren’t any better than the top mir talmidim.
The number of talmidim who go to brisk is a good yardstick to determine a few thing, including how integrated the yeshiva is in the core yeshiva world, if they allow college, what kind of guys go there, etc…
It’s not holier than thou. My Yeshiva doesn’t send anyone to brisk (there have been a couple of exceptions) but it’s still a great place with accommodations for very yeshivishe bochurim.Ujm, there is a heter for photographers, that when one is “tarud bemelacha” busy with work, they are not meharher – “the velt” says this, and i can look into it if there are teshuvos (im sure there are in general, but not sure if this heter is mentioned).
Re YouTube – i agree that YouTube isn’t a place for any ehrlich person, besides kiruv and the like. Whether it’s technically lifnei eiver or not, i don’t know. It’s also not tznius for a jewish woman to have her face all over the world.
I realize my post wasn’t clear – rabbi dietz does not have a chaburah in derech chaim. He has his own shul on ocean parkway between n and o, closer to o.
Also, regarding the psak i received from rav belsky (it was in regards to my mother a”h) the Internet was quite different then. That was 7 years ago. I don’t know if it would still apply.
That being said, gye is one of the only resources where mevakshei Hashem of all stripes – increasingly including the less yeshivishe crowd – can find chizuk and help one another.
A filter which can be turned off at will is not sufficient in halacha.
While it helps in some circumstances (like for women only if there’s ALWAYS a lot of people around in an office setting – as heard from rav belsky) there is a chiyuv in halacha to prevent nisyonos whenever possible.
This obligation is derived from many sources, notably bava basra 57b, regarding one who has two roads to go on, one with nisyonos in shmiras aynayim, and another without. Not only is a person obligated to take the road without nisyonos, he is even called a rasha if he chooses the other road – even if he does not look, because it is sinful to bring one’s self to a yatzer hora; maybe he won’t succeed? And even if he does, he will have wasted energy that could be used for nisyonos presented to him min hashomayim, that are part of his life plan.
Now if someone went down that road… He’s supposed to watch his eyes and do teshuva for going down the road, not give in and say “why should i bother, I’m going to be called a rasha anyway,” that’s pure yatzer hora at his finest.
Shmiras aynayim is a pasuk with the same obligatory weight as any other negative mitzvah in the Torah.
Chazal are full of statements which proclaim the frailty of man when it comes to taavos. Ain apotropus le’arayos; there is no safeguard against cohabitation sins. Al.taamin beatzmecha, do not believe in yourself (that you can enter nisyonos) until you’re dead. Dovid hamelech was chastised for this, after asking Hashem to test him, to be like the avos.
Those who think one can go into the outside world(or even inside..a chasuna, a kiddush) without practicing tools to fulfill the mitzvah of ahmiras aynayim, are just as folly as those who say that abstaining from lashon hora makes one a “frummie”.
because whenever one actually triea to practice shmiras aynayim, they “open their eyes” to a huge breadth of challenges that they had never addressed. Their vision was left to rote, and they had no idea what they had let into their eyes, much like when one begins to examine their speech after years of neglect, they soon discover how much work they need to do to avoid lashon hora, nivul peh, etc.
Telling people to just “be strong” and mock those who have filters as “weak,” is not only against the Torah, but it leads others to sin and not protect themselves.
May Hashem grant every yid the power to resist the yatzer hora in all of his machinations, from within and without, during this time pf introspection and be zocheh to build the beis hanikdash with the tears cried in teahuva for our sins.
Ujm, derech chaim caters to a very broad spectrum. There are mainstream guys, mitzuyonim, and a lot of bochurim who need extra help in learning, which they specialize in.
I’d recommend rabbi dietz’s night chaburah. He learns with middle aged and older men, many of whom did not have a yeshiva education but are frum. He also has a unique maariv minyan; shemoneh esrei is like 11 minutes.
Pet rocks must have been the most cost effective, psychologically eye opening fad in history
Gadol – if MO were sitting and learning and not involved in goyishe media/mingling with them, then i don’t think anyone would object to them having goyishe names. It’s they who need the separation the most; they indeed haven’t been mekabel the Torah, and are more assimilated than the generation who left litzrayim. Names, dress, philosophy, language, behavior, everything is copied and pasted directly from the goyim.
Rav avigdor miller writes that even though there were gedolim who were against it, there are tremendous benefits to having pictures of tzadikim in one’s house… He also criticizes Judaica stores for selling pictures of zionist leaders.
Rav belsky had several pictures in his house, not just his office, of rav reuven, rav yaakov, and i believe rav shlomo heiman, but i don’t remember that very clearly.
Rav boruch ber didn’t like getting his picture taken, but one time he met an American jew whose parnosa was in photography. To support a yid, he put on his hat, made a big smile and posed for a picture
Anything can be debates internally; as in, what do chazal mean, but chazal’s authority in all areas of philosophy, worldview, psychology, sociology, history, science, etc…are dvar Hashem.
Hakirah should be read “hakiur”, the ugly
When something is in the Torah, any scientific evidence to the contrary is disregardes. Torah is an absolute; science is simply not. It’s a handmaid of Torah, not the other way around.
We’re accomplishing our tafkid in our time; our generation has its purpose, challengea, and special set of goals.
If i were alive in previous generations, I’d fall prey to the yatzer hora, like rav ashi learned from menasheh.
aside from the rambam’s statements about astronomy and his son, rabbeinu avrohom’s seeming expansion of it to cover other areas of science, which rishonim question chazal’s conclusions at all? in drush, many do, like the radak and ibn ezra, but they give reasons for doing so. they aren’t saying chazal are wrong, but rather that they must express their 70 ponim latorah understanding which as a rishon, they are entitled to do. after which time, no one else engaged in such study, even in drush, but definitely not in chazal’s statements such as killing lice on shabbos, etc..
you’re parroting online talking points without giving a stitch of evidence, much like your theories on orthopraxy. they’re just hollow. achronim across the board enshrine every word of chazal as torah misinai; check out the beer hagolah from the maharal, gr”a, and tons of others.
gadolha – just how is the standard 9-5 work, 2 hours at home, 8 hour sleep, and 1 hour learning (well, if you can call it such) “balanced”. The american standard for a baal habayis is anything but balanced. it’s weighted heavily on the side of gashmius. a kolel lifestyle is one of the only viable options for as long as it can be maintained; ones rachmana patrei…sometimes a person needs to spend a lot of time working, but that’s an ones, not a balance.
Nomesorah, I’m not sure which is a bigger assumption… Evolution being true itself, or that a hardline anti-everything Yeshiva man would accept it as fact.
The author of maaneh l’igros was r. Yom tov Schwartz; he learned iin chachmei lublin, and at one point probably was a talmid chacham, who was broken during the war and had emotional problems. The way he writes has a total lack of kovod hatorah. Rav ovadia yosef likes some of his torah, but criticizes him for not giving proper respect to rav moshe. Needless to say, he never had a following, as rav moshe was rightfully recognized as the manhig hador by virtually everyone.
Time for truth; i wasn’t giving him legitimacy, i was saying that the only issue anyone ever had with rav Moshe, erroneously so, was that he argued with the magen avrohom and other early achronim.
Rav elya ber has not distanced hinself from rav aharon; just he spent more time in brisk, but I’m sure rav aharon had an influence on him. Stamford moved to monsey, and I don’t believe rav Meir says shiur anymore, but i have no reason to think he was not actively involved in the monetary side of things when he was leading/founding the yeshiva.
Nomesorah – those yeshivos are very well known in the yeshiva world, especially south fallasburg and stanford, the latter having one of the finest standards in the olam hayeshivos. South fallsburg is known as an American brisk, where it’s as good as you make it, but they’re not hawkish…zichron melech is also a very established, respected yeshiva.
If you’re right, it would support your claim that rav aharon held that way, because all three of the above were started by talmidim of his; rav chaim Epstein zt”l, yblch”t rav elya ber, and rav meir hershkowitz
No one seems to address this – lo ra’inu aino rayah. Not seeing is not a proof. How can scientists prove that a species is extinct? They can’t. Where does rav hirsch write that we would discard our views if proven wrong scientifically? Rav schwab writes quite the opposite – that if science would disprove a statement in chazal, we would “shecht our reasoning as a korban” in the way avrohom was ready to sacrifice his reasoning for Hashem by akeidas Yitzchok.
Abortion is being portrayed as if it were something in shulchan sruch, where the magen avrohom says one thing and the elya rabba another, and rav moshe ignores them to deliver his own psak. Rav moshe deals with rav yaakov emden(an acharon who actually isn’t given as much weight as the kreisi uplaysi, for instance), but there aren’t that many sources on the subject, much less an established precedent as if they’re in the rishonim and nosei keilim. Rav moshe was, as i said, literally on the level of learning of an early acharon, as anyone can see from his dibros moshe.
In psak, rav moshe often argues with achronim, he was criticized by some who didn’t recognize his gadlus in learning, like the author of maaneh le’igros, who had his own issues… zionism, Holocaust denial (as in, denying the causes thereof), etc..
I think “most rabbonim” quoted here refers to shul rabbis and communally involved modern Orthodox or black hat wearing religious zionists, to be honest.
Time for truth – well said. Modern orthodoxy is a mirror, usually, of liberal but centrist goyim. At the time, most liberal goyim were opposed to abortion, and it was considered somewhat radical to support it. MO rabbis had no blowback for being against it. Nowadays, most MO people believe in it (and other abominations), and even some people with velvet fabric on their heads spout “right to privacy” nonsense and the slippery slope argument. That’s why many MO rabbis shifted. You want to know what MO will say next year? Take out a new york times magazine from 5 years ago, and it’ll match up almost perfectly.
You’re right that they pick and choose. This is probably the only teshuva from the tzitz eliezer that they know, much like the only rambam that they know is his shitoh about being supported by the community to learn. It’s honestly pathetic.
As for the claim that the tzitz eliezer is more grounded than rav Moshe – how much shimush have you had in psak to make such a vlaim? Rav Moshe was very meikil, and had no problems allowing things that the majority didn’t. If you eat cholov stam (which im sure the above posters do) then you should not dismiss his psak on abortions either. The psak is “unusual” because they’re used to rav moshe allowing everything, so when he says no to something – emphatically so – rather than listen to the manhig hador, they turn and dig up whoever they can find who says what they want to hear.
Rav Moshe was also from alonr. Rav avigdor miller called abortion infanticide.
Reb E – the same people who do follow those kulos from rav Moshe are the ones who now cast him aside in favor of whoever will grant them what they want.
Amil – there’s no child expense to pay from that time, so why don’t money? Also, you’re assuming that the torah’s position is that a life begins the moment of conception, because the only two perspectives you’ve heard are “my body my choice” and “life starts at conception”. The first one sounds better, and it’s “empowering” so you go with it.
The gemara says that until 40 days there’s no neshoma. Many states also want to restrict it to about that time, when a fetal heartbeat can be detected.
Also, for “strong independent women”, why do they need child support?
Reb E, no one’s dismissing him. Being rov of a hospital is wonderful. Writing teshuvos is also great. Having government rabbinical jobs is neither good or bad, it’s just a parnosa, it doesn’t show gadlus. He was a legitimate posek and i use his sefer myself(not that he needs my haskama).
But in the big picture, he was one of hundreds of influential rabbonim in the 20th century. Rav Moshe was one of…3 or 4, who built up klal yisroel after the war, and was on the level of an early acharon in learning. He’s up there with the chazon ish, brisker rov, rav aharon kotler, and maybe one or two others.
Polling data would find that Americans are wildly against most of the 7 mitzvos being capital offenses. Does that matter? Are Americans’ views what we base our values or sense of normalcy on?
I agree it’s a lot easier to live modern Orthodox lives where you are as integrated as possible with goyim if you think like them, but what relevance does that have to the rest of klal yisroel who never considered it, and only asked “mah yomru hamitzriim” when it’s about kovod shomayim?
Rav Moshe writes…
but but but..the tzitz eliezer! Let’s run to this sefer that you probably can’t quote a single psak therefrom besides thia, a sefer rhat was written by a big person but who had no more influence in the Jewish world than dozens, hundreds of legitimate poskim.But rav moshe, who literally shaped klal yisroel in America abd abroad, where without him, we’d have no hadracha in the 20th century after the Holocaust…
But but but….
Gadol – 99% of the time it’s not being “forced” on her. She did something she’s old enough to understand the results of. Live with it and don’t kill.
Smerel, i made a similar mistake in taking the Tanya’s useage of that pasuk and thinking it’s in gemara – the gemaras maskanah is that it means cleansing, but i did think of a way to make the tanyas pshat fit in with a maharsha there, but it’s not the pashut pshat when you see the gemara.
He’s getting it from a zohar or arizal, kol tivu de’avdin etc…
either of which can take the pasuk to mean that al derech sod, but in pshat, that’s not how chazal understand it.
Nomesorah – what truth am i not following? We’re not achrai to delve into how the environment can be damaged. We’re commanded to investigate and guard our health, and even then, there is an approach to not investigating…some things are better left samui min ha’ayin, and hezek won’t come from it. Rav moshe said that about dor yeshorim, not as a ruling against it, but as an idea to not require it. He did not use their services, nor does his family.
And yes, reality is determined by the pesukim and even by what chazal say. We go to doctors because the Torah says we can wnd ahould.
Remember besulim chozrim?
Chanan….or he was right, and lo ra’inu ainoh rayah. Not seeing isn’t a proof.
No, the other way around – politics needs to be based on Torah, which this isn’t. This is just sticking it in the face of their enemies, no kovod Hashem or kovod hatorah.
“Endangering the poor”
Easy solution; don’t do the thing that makes them have to get abortions. Sin has consequences.
AAQ – that’s exactly what i think tendler thought; and it’s evil at its core. When it comes to mitzvos “Hashem will forgive us”, nu nu, it’s only a mitzvah… But when we have non torah based political interests…. that’s a different story. For that, we’re moser nefesh.
Chadgadya – that would be “melaveh”, OPs term “malveh” is correct
Zaph, i meant that no one uses kol kach in conversation; you’d say “azoi gut” or something. I agree with you very much that without a basic command of Yeshiva terms, you’re not going to understand a lot of achronim.
Yabia; why not speak Hebrew? Well, for starters, no one did until some secular thugs hijacked it and made it in their image.
Using “kol kach” gave yourself away
Religious zionism, the mamzer of the unholy union between nationalism and superficial, thoughtless judaism, was never, and will never be accepted by the mainstream. It leaves more jews dead than secular zionism, and its goals represent rhe contamination of all we consider holy.
Breaking minhag yerushalayim, even if a rov somehow thinks it’s ok to go up, would be unconscionable if not for the blindness that zionism causes. The number of jews it puts in danger should also be sufficient reason to forbid it, but zionism is an egel hazahav which does not allow these rabbis to see what’s clearly in front of them.
Comparing that to minagim based on rishonim (like eating indoors on shemini atzeres, it’s tosfos) or gedolei yeshivos (like rav yisroel saying to make kiddush before tekios) is mind boggling.
Putting jews in danger puts one outside the category of oseh al daas beis din patur, even if we were to say that the rabbis being followed are legitimate baalei horaah.
Interesting that this same supposed baal horaah was moser klal yisroel beyad akum to advance what he thought was the saving og lives that were at risk from bris milah. Tell me how a supporter of tendler justifies endangering jewish life to walk up on har habayis, which is no chiyuv, but not for bris milah, which is a mitzvah?
Gadol – i refer to controversial rabbis like rabbi kook and rabbo yoshe ber as rabbi, but i draw the line at people who get the government to attack jewish people for keeping mitzvos.
A place that has a possibly more familiar feel to it would be the bostoner kolel. Boston is known both in the states and in eretz yisroel for being extremely welcoming and warm. There are BTs, and many FFBs there.
While i don’t do it myself very much, i enjoy seeing people with copy/pasted goyishe values being triggered by black and white shulchan aruch, gemara and tanach. That’s a form of trolling i suppose.
Yiftach wasn’t chosen because he could solve klal yisroels problems. He had a lev tov and was full of zeal for torah and klal yisroel. He was not a “gadol”, as he was unlearned.
He represented how even the lowest among the people – an outcast who was born to an unwed mother, grew up among warriors and rough men – had superb character that eclipsed the best of the goyim.
Tendler was also not a talmid of MTJ – he was in YU.
Many, many gedolim had children who didn’t follow their derech. The fact that most of rav moshes children were not only frum but gedolei torah who grew up in a hostile environment is astounding.
That he had one son in law who turned out to be modern is not surprising; most people at that time were not what we would call yeshivishe, either his daughter wouldn’t fit with a yeshivishe guy and she needs to get married to, or tendler was a bochur who didn’t wear his hashkofos on his sleeve…or it could be he hadn’t developed those shitos yet. The possibilities are numerous, but none of them point to rav moshe being accepting of zionism, modern orthodoxy, or violations of halacha including ascending har habayis.
There’s also no way rav moshe would allow breaking minhag makom, as the rabbonim in yerushalayim had long since forbade the practice, even if (and there isn’t) there was a legitimate heter.
Also, rav dovid and yblch”t rav reuven are neither zionistic or modern.