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And I agree with popa.
Except that it’s not only krumsters like you.
It’s all types of krumsters. 😉
“.1157” is the number of girls who will be left out if ch”v a twenty four year old guy marries a twenty year old girl.
I know where. In the dorm, with a madrichah and an eim habayis or whatever they call it.
The whole idea of being away for the year makes me uncomfortable, but the setup doesn’t have to be where a man has personal interaction, which is not controllable in sherut leumi, AFAIK (though to be honest I really don’t).
I don’t think recent events should be blamed on the concept of seminary in EY (which I am against as the default), but on those particular circumstances.
Unfortunately, the lack of safeguards is not unique to this seminary, or to seminary at all.
It is indeed not simple for a girl to leave in the middle of the year, which is why your point is well taken. I just don’t think it’s comparable to sheirut leumi where it’s illegal to leave, so while I agree it’s a bad idea, I don’t think it’s yehoreg v’al yaavor or even stam assur.
And I’ve told you a million times to stop exaggerating.
What do you mean?
(This was not facetious.)
I assume that your disclaimer was.
I was under the impression that sherut leumi was assur because it’s compelled. A woman is allowed to have a male supervisor, as long as she can quit at her discretion.
That said, I agree that it is imperative that the seminaries have oversight, and that they be set up in a more secure way than some of them currently are.
I think it’s also both unrealistic and somewhat ethically questionable to artificially push forward boys who are not ready to get married.
FTFY
Having reread the OP, I’m with Syag. I’m highly skeptical that someone would actually tell someone that they’re nervous that his relative is a stalker or predator.
Randomex, You can’t say that one year, all the boys decided to get married to girls younger than the previous norm had been, causing an instant gap to be created…
Right, but why can’t you say it happened gradually?
I think it’s both unrealistic and somewhat ethically questionable to artificially hold back girls who are ready to get married.
Their paranoid reason for refusal says more about them than about you.
What is their paranoid reason, and what does it say?
What is the age of the people who aren’t mean?
You called her a girl. At 26!
Contrary to what DaasYochid said there, everyone will want to marry them
Well to make sure then, we’ll have them wear tzitzis (with techeiles) and tefillin.
.1157
Avram, there’s no point in making diyukim and speculating on a poster’s sinister intentions.
You wrote, “two wrongs don’t make a right. One spouse acting badly does not validate the other spouse acting badly”, and you are 100% correct, even considering both spouses equally.
I also agree that there could be underlying issues which can be difficult to articulate. However, this could go either way, it’s not husband or wife specific.
So is it a good thing or a bad thing if the sheitel covers the knees?
Syag, popa was addressing the OP.
Is he beating me now?
I think most of us assume it’s some type of two family house, likely a basement apartment. It’s quite reasonable and normal for someone to be particular about a tenant in that situation.
I have no problem discussing it as a social issue, but I think I asked a very relevant question, which nobody has yet answered:
What do people seemingly find objectionable about renting to a single male?
To be more specific, is it discrimination based on class, or are there practical considerstions?
Regarding the specific case you mentioned, Gamanit made an excellent observation.
Oh, good, it counts even if I post it, instead of you.
It’s a little unfair, though, since I am involved in more discussions/debates with you than the others.
A few points in response:
1) You are equating her being wrong with him being right. It doesn’t work that way.
2) Not being cruel and vindictive is very much a Torah value, not merely a modern fabrication.
3) ???? ????? are the precise words I heard from a dayan regarding a case where al pi din he is not obligated to divorce her, but he should for Gan Eden purposes. I am not knowledgeable enough to go through all of the relevant halachos with you; as I said, it’s a guess.
4) Yes, I think he can withold for custody issues, but for Gan Eden purposes the arrangement should be based in the children’s best interest, not his or even “justice’s” best interest.
5) There is no question that there are cases where the marriage is unsalvagable. I think this should be determined by an objective party, according to Torah values rather than modern values, and when it is determined, and all other matters are reasonably settled, he should, and should be encouraged to, give the get.
6) Although I’m no expert, from the little I’ve read, you misunderstand the purpose of the cherem d’Rabeinu Gershom regarding a forced get. It is not so that she can prolong the marriage indefinitely; it’s to prevent him from easily divorcing her at whim. In no way, shape or form does this indicate that there isn’t a point in time at which it’s clear that she should accept the get.
There are still BlackBerries?
Maybe no more immune, but more likely to have experienced a traumatic event.
Throw burkas on them
If you would know how to learn b’iyun, you would have chapped that it was a backhanded compliment. 😉
This all may be true at a point where the marriage is salvageable. I am talking about point where it is not.
There may be children suffering, and her reasons may have been wrong and immoral, and she may herself be guilty of cruelty, but in that situation, it is indeed spite.
Obviously, there is no law specifying that, but I’m wondering if the law would apply to unspecified bases for discrimination. The fact that it wouldn’t ordinarily be noticed is true, but I am curious about how the law looks at it anyhow.
Instead of asking whether the husband shougive the get, how about asking if the wife has the moral right to ask for the get?
In some situations she does, and in some, she doesn’t.
I do not see why the husband is morally obligated to give the get.
Because in a situation where the marriage has no chance of working, the motive for him to withold the get would be revenge, which is immoral.
RebYidd, is that true? If someone has an irrational hatred of people with middle names consisting of seven letters, they can discriminate in all situations?
What do people seemingly find objectionable about renting to a single male?
It was even in context!
🙂
Adapted from the Rechnitz shidduch thread, so that it can go into the report card thread:
PAA, you seem to spend a lot of time delving deeply into the sugya of why we shouldn’t spend a lot of time delving deeply into one sugya.
The lawyers in the room can correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that the owner of a two family house can discriminate based in the number of letters in the prospective tenant’s middle name, if he so desires.
Could be, but I’ve always heard the story in the context of the mystical concept I described, which is mevuar in Nefesh Hachaim and other places.
Sam, it’s a well known story, said over by enough learned people that it warrants understanding.
????? ??? ??”? ?’ ?”?
Ah, that’s what popa meant when he said he lived in anchorage.
Specific mareh m’komos would be helpful.
Off the top of my head, with kablanus, since he took responsibility for the job, which he can do at any time, his work is on his own time, so he’s considered to be working for himself.
Shutfos is considered as he is working for you as well, because you profit from the fact that he is working on Shabbos.
Randomex, if you think I’m blaming her, you’re wrong. If she’s turning to an anonymous forum for advice, I’m guessing that the problem isn’t just with her lack of rest, there’s a relationship issue. I think what I told her is excellent advice for anyone in a relationship.
Well said, interjection.
I don’t think that’s a general rule. I could see someone blaming society, for instance, for being too decadent and making someone who can’t afford the decadence feel bad (I still think it’s more proper and healthy to work on the middah of mistapek b’muat than to rant against fancy cars, watches, vacations, etc.)
As I said, I’m willing to listen to a reasoned, well articulated complaint against society regarding shidduchim and older singles, I just think it hasn’t been made yet in this thread (for the reasons I’ve given).
Excellent, PAA. I believe this is what CA was referring to.
No, Goq, you can’t use an old ticket to avoid paying at the troll booth.
I think we’re mostly in agreement, because my main issue was indeed the agreement with the secular supervisor. There are two points with which I’ll disagree, though.
1) there is a specific problem in that the way our society portrays women is such that if a woman is older and unmarried she may feel bad/pitied/worthless etc.
I don’t think this is a women’s issue. The older single men seem to be expressing a similar sentiment.
2) there is a dearth of things which women are led to feel accomplished about outside of marriage
I don’t think that vacuum exists. I think the issue is that nothing is as valued as her role in marriage, not that other things aren’t considered accomplishments.
I believe that your statement that “I don’t know if there is a simple answer or even any answer at all” shows that we are much more in agreement than disagreement; if there’s possibly no solution, anger and blame are sorely out of place.
In fact, your statement, It’s a combination of societal values plus insensitive people. nicely sums up my position.
than you must be typing with your eyes closed
Please explain. You are being very cryptic, and I don’t have ruach hakodesh.
Syag, I’m sorry for the pain you went through. I would still like to hear what we can do better (as a society, rather than as individuals).