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ZD, I’m confused. Previously, you stated that you didn’t know the case. Now, you say you feel the media reports are fairly accurate. How would you be in a position to know that?
Iced, that’s ludicrous. Should any defendant who takes the stand automatically be exonorated?
WIY, As I stated previously, I don’t know anything about this case. I therefore make no judgement either way. ZD also did not claim any knowledge of this case, and therefore I question his prejudging.
The threshold for bringing the authorities in is “raglayim l’davar”. This is determined by a posek based on halachically accepted means, but certainly does not require video evidence.
ZD, you keep on repeating how bad the aveira is, but nobody’s disagreed with you about that. No matter how destructive and evil such behavior is, it doesn’t prove the guilt of a particular individual.
ZD, they would first have to prove yichud, and even if they did, although that would certainly reflect poorly on him, it wouldn’t prove a bigger crime.
My point to GAW is that he seems to assume yichud, and I don’t know how he knows that there was.
He called you WIY?
GAW,
I have no knowledge of this case, but why do you assume the burden of proof, even regarding yichud, is on the defense?
Why do people assume that it’s of little importance to the community? Because they aren’t privy to the investigations and precautions taking place without publicity?
Just because you don’t know something, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
MSS,
Of course, hatzlocha in everything.
Eman, I believe you’re making the same mistake MSS made, confusing NASI’s different programs with each other.
Popa,
Why do you assume that jihadists prefer out of town girls?
MSS,
There’s no way around it, you were calling them liars.
Did you call or email them yet to ask which program they are referring to?
Popa,
Since when is fanaticism based on halacha?
but i won’t bore you with the details.
Why the change in approach? 😉
MSS,
Instead of remaining ignorant and degrading a legitimate organization (essentially calling them liars), why don’t you contact them, and find out which project they are referring to. Then you can post your apology.
MSS,
I don’t think you’re talking about the same project as the ad.
TORAHPSYCH: Aderaba. If it’s completely uncooked than it’s completely fine. Also known as “Kidra Chayta” as mentioned in S”A.
2scents: Your right, everyone should ask theor LOC, however according to what I remember, putting raw meat right before shabbos is more accetable.
Actually, it depends on what you call “right before Shabbos”. If it’s put in right before candle lighting time, it still has enough time to become a little cooked before shkiyah, which is a problem.
The heter of kidra chaysa might not be so applicable nowadays.
I hope not!
MediumThinker,
No, his comments are not as nasty as some of the posts which appeared here. But having pointed out the incorrect and unnecessary rebuke, he’s holding himself to a higher standard, which I don’t think he’s holding up to. Maybe, as you pointed out, I’m doing the same.
In 30 years, there will be no more MO young people since all the kids won’t be frum
Their ranks will be filled by Yidden from Chareidi backgrounds who are looking for a less stringent lifestyle. Maybe the title “MO” will be replaced by something else.
Yichusdik,
What you describe in an old phenomenon; anyone to my left is frei, anyone to my right is a fanatic. Nothing new here, and of course the ones to the left will always perceive those to the right as having “quiet paternalism or prejudice”, justified or not (and, granted, it certainly is at times justified, as are the accusations directed the other way). That’s just human nature. And paradoxically, the same “holier than thou” attitude expressed by those on the right is present by those on the left. Just look through these boards as a sample – you’ve been as guilty as anyone. You just think you’re right, so that makes it okay.
Here’s a question for those who would not consider a shidduch with health issues. Let’s say you find and marry someone in perfect health. You have a child. The child has health issues. Do you forget about marrying off that child?
So you’re suggesting that one should date someone with health issues, when (s)he could just as easily date someone without health issues, because there’s a possibility that they will have a child who is unhealthy? I don’t understand your argument.
Or to answer your question directly, no. And that’s not hypocritical.
Be well, see you bein hazmanim on the halacha threads!
Yichusdik, I think you’re we have to separate what you see on these boards from real life.
The issues you are referring to are certainly dealt with, although in a less public way. I find it anachronistic to claim that abuse, corruption, etc. are still swept under the rug.
And although you are now clarifying that you only meant to criticize some anonymous posters in the CR, your posts do not come across that way.
MediumThinker,
My point is that it’s kind of paradoxical to criticize criticism for its own sake. The nature of the criticism isn’t really germane. The bottom line is that the critics on either side feel they are justified by virtue of being right. As far as not being nekamah because the point is to prevent further attacks, I don’t carry much hope that it will be effective. It is, in my opinion, to what realistic purpose (to borrow his phrase).
I also don’t feel that my response to Yichusdik is so much an attack as a dialogue (although I can’t be sure how it actually comes across). I give Yichusdik enough credit to feel that he might see some truth in what I am saying – more than I give the posters who wrote some of those demeaning comments on the other thread – and believe that we can have a productive conversation.
You seem to have it in for me? don’t you?
No, just for your distasteful choice of SN (and accompanying profile).
my comment however was more about how this might creep into a drasha as a “look how much better we are then them” type message.
I guess you’ve don’t frequent chareidi rabbonim’s drashos. Why do you assume that the themes are about putting others down? And isn’t that assumption actually demeaning chareidim, by assuming that it’s most important issue (or at least an important issue) is putting down the MO? This is not at all the case, in my experience (nor the reverse when I’ve heard drashos from MO rabbis).
He didn’t attack the whole chareidi community just those that criticize him.
That’s not really true. His line, “when serious issues that are plaguing the Chareidi community come to the forefront…” is clearly implying that these issues don’t plague other communities, and I think we all can guess which types of issues he’s referring to.
the difference between one whho kills for pleasure and one who does it in self-defense.
His point was that the the “assault on Modern Orthodoxy” is to no realistic purpose and without allegiance to our sources (which he’s probably right about). If his attack is a reaction to being hurt, that sounds like nekamah, which is also to no realistic purpose and without allegiance to our sources.
It seems that the answer to the question posed in this discussion’s title, “Who Should be Giving Tochecho to Whom?” should have been answered, “neither”, rather than with a scathing rebuttal.
Yichusdik,
Why is your attack any better?
I know Rabbi Pruzansky’ community pretty well and what happens there is totally at odds with what he said.
I don’t have any first hand knowledge, but as I posted earlier, I’m also skeptical.
Why would he fabricate a statistic which only demeans his own community? Strange.
I have an issue with any website that allows “Jimmy Savile” as a screen name.
Period.
You should be embarrassed.
I am being dan l’kaf z’chus that the owner of the website does not yet know about this. But now that I Googled the name, I agree that such a despicable person’s name should not be used as a SN.
Sushee,
What are you doing about it?
Crisis,
As a Modern Orthodox rabbi, wouldn’t Rabbi Pruzansky have a pretty good sense of how many young adults his from community go OTD, even without firm data? (Although honestly, from an outsider’s perspective 50% seems to me to be a gross exaggeration).
My answer is 13.
You changed the question, so you got a different answer. The answer to the OP’s question is still 14.
If the question was “1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 – 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 x 0 = ?”, the answer would be 12.
IOW: why are we getting worked up over a clearly false set of data?
Because there are some bored people who like to fill their time by putting down other people (and this seems to be occurring on both sides).
Popa,
Niskatnu hadoros. This study is a year more current.
Maybe that helps also in a business that requires shaking hands?
The handshake is not the business itself, it’s a personal touch which encourages a closeness (cordiality) which makes it easier to do business.
Feif,
Not a bad idea to leave the CR, but probably for the wrong reasons.
I for one, who consider myself anything but MO, do not harbor an ounce of hatred towards MO Yidden, although I may strongly disagree with them in many areas of hashkafah. All of my peers, fellow “chareidim”, feel the same way as I. The sinah occasionally posted here is not a reflection of the real world (in fact most of the people in my peer group don’t even have regular internet access). this is a good reason to either leave, or at least not partake in these types of discussions.
The silly posts you saw here were probably written just to elicit the reaction they did. The bored bochurim who wrote them are probably giggling at your response.
Hopefully, you’ll use the time, otherwise spent here, doing more productive things (which is the other real reason we should all leave).
Be well!
50% of the graduates of Modern Orthodox high schools are no longer Shabbat or Kashrut observant
That implies that they once were Shabbat and Kashrut observant, unlike the theories put forth by some posters here.
However, this study, even if true, does not disprove, in any way, the validity of Modern Orthodoxy as a legitimate path towards avodas Hashem. Modern Orthodoxy, widely considered less stringent than “right wing Orthodoxy”, might very well simply be more appealing to those who tend towards lesser observance.
In other words, what hasn’t been demonstrated is what is the cause and what is the effect.
I personally do not agree with many of the ideals espoused in the name of Modern Orthodoxy, but this study, if true, would still not support my opinions.
As far as the actual halacha:
Syag:
But I will be sure to let the Rav know that he made a mistake about the coffee and grounds being a mixture.
You could let him know that if his sevara is based on the Chazon Ish in O.C. 53, who says this about sand which accumulated in a filter through which mostly clean water is being poured, there are two distinctions:
1)The CH”I states that the sand doesn’t move (because of it’s weight) which is visibly not true with coffee, in which you can see the coffee grounds floating in the water accumulating atop the grounds.
2)That’s not considered a mixture because you have no interest in the water touching the sand, but that’s not the case with the coffee; you obviously need that contact for the coffee’s flavor to be infused into the water. Ayil Meshulash,in 4-40-(111), makes this distinction (he is referring to a case where there are tea leves in a filter, through which water is being poured). Also in 4-7-(19), Ayil Meshulash (in the name of R’ Nissim Karelitz) rejects the notion that the water in the wine sediments (which, as HWGA said, would have been the source for a heter) is not a mixture, based on a clear diyuk from the Chazon Ish and Mishna Berurah.
I’m not trying to cast aspersions on the posek with whom you consulted. Maybe I’m wrong (although I’m pretty sure I read the Ayil Meshulash correctly), and maybe you misunderstood him.
HWGA:
Haven’t you learned mishnayos in your life?
The second mishna in the 20th chapter of mesechta shabbos, which is on 139b, clearly states that this is muttar.
You would have served your cause better to quote the Shulchan Aruch (319 – 9), because the Ran and others learn differently than Rash”i, and the Shevisas HaShabbos (as quoted by Ayil Meshulash; I didn’t see SH”HSH inside) says that it’s because they hold there are borer issues in that case.
Despite the fact that the S.A. paskens like Rash”i, in this case, I believe there would still be a problem of borer.The coffee holds back the water for a little while, and I don’t think we can view the entire process, from the pouring of the water over the grounds through it’s exiting with the coffee flavor absorbed in it, as one action without the tachlis of borer. In the case of the wine sediments, we are viewing it as one complete process. See Ayil Meshulash, 9 – 6 – (21) (he doesn’t make this distinction explicitly, because he’s not discussing coffee).
Oomis,
Understood, you make a very good point. However, often people post here a halacha as halachah peshutah, to mattir that which is, at the very least, controversial. As much as we’d like to think that people are intelligent, discriminatory and honest enough not to follow a halacha they found posted online, I’m sure many people do. I also, as I explained to Syag, don’t necessarily think that anyone who posts something in the name of a posek is quoting him correctly, or for that matter is really quoting a qualified posek.
Please take anything I post here as my own opinion, backed up, as much as I can, by traceable sources and, hopefully, sound sevara, but of course, one should follow a psak they have received from a legit posek, not my opinion or that of any anonymous poster.
I don’t know, I think asking a posek is pretty much all that I need to determine if something is okay or not.
For yourself, yes, (if he’s a legit posek and you understood his answer properly), but from my perspective, I can’t accept a sevara which makes no sense to me based on someone on the internet quoting an unnamed posek whose only qualification is that he doesn’t have any brothers- or sisters-in-law (of course this is my [attempt at a]sense of humor).
Thank you everyone for your posts. I would just like to clarify that I want to start a magazine for frum preschool children, similar to the highlights magazine.
The current large frum publications all have sections for children, so hatzlacha in competing.
Maybe nothing important happened.
A brother in law doesn’t need to have married sisters, he could be referring to his wife’s brother.
He obviously doesn’t have any of those either, and the same question applies (if we continue to be way too literal): why does that qualify him to pasken?
…coffee through a filter is NOT borer. The only thing I remember is that the water goes in and comes out after passing thru the coffee. They were never considered a mixture
It’s a mixture as it sits in the grounds cooking the coffee.
I asked a posek, not someones brother-in-law
Sorry, but I think you’ll need a better source than that. Besides, why does the fact that someone doesn’t have any married sisters qualify him to pasken?
The kli revii is necessary for the bishul aspect
Implied in the requirement for a kli revii is the fact that a kli shlishi would not be okay (which is certainly true according to the Aruch Hashulchan and Mishna Berurah). Since the A.H. and M.B. don’t mention, AFAIK, the heter of a kli revii, it should still be assur (unless the water is below yad soledes bo, in which case even a kli rishon would be okay).
obviously there were, and still are, big Rabbonim who hold it’s fine.
I’m not sure how the “were” turned into “and still are”. Instead of asking if certain roshei yeshiva allowed mixed seating, why don’t you ask if they allowed mixed socializing? I suspect that you know what the answer would be.
I pity you for thinking that people who don’t do things like you aren’t religious.
I think you mischaracterized his post.
Sam,
I’m not sure that’s not, in a sense, the case over here.
The same level of harchakah which one should attempt to keep when possible, may not be assur in certain circumstances.
For example, even if we assume that separate seating is in the category of “meod meod”, and one should initially arrange a wedding as separate, that doesn’t make it unacceptable to sit in mixed company for a business meeting.
I’m not sure everyone would agree that it’s permissible to use on Shabbos as it is not “heat brewed” during the process.
But it bothers me when they say it’s wrong to have it.
Al tarbeh is not a halachah, merely advice – not that it means don’t follow it, but you shouldn’t base a psak on it.
Let me get this straight – it bothers you when someone says it’s wrong to disregard Chazal’s advice?
Also, is ???? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ??? also merely advice, despite it appearing in the Shulchan Aruch (with the word ????)?
I should point out that the bishul issue is not as clear cut as the borer issue; a kli shlishi might be okay (although that’s not the majority opinion), but I’ve never heard the requirement for a kli revii. Once you’re past kli sheini, I don’t think there’s a difference.
How does Gevalia (brewed) coffee compare to Taster’s Choice (or other instant) coffee?
No comparison.