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Is it a lack of bitachon to live within a budget, and to have (almsot) every penny figured out?
No, but if taken to an extreme it might be emotionally unhealthy.
cherrybim,
OK, I got you. I thought you were talking about texting for pikuach nefesh, which is highly unusual.
I tried to post an excerpt from an article titled “All In The Numbers: A Mathematical Explanation For The ‘Shidduch Crisis'”, written by Ariel Halpert, Ph.D. (mathematics) which appeared on the Jewish Press’ website, but it hasn’t posted. He comes to the conclusion that there’s an age gap based discrepancy, based on data from the U.S census.
Unless you are texting your bakashos to the ribbono she’ll olam.
Nah, He’s got a Kosherphone. ?
Using a cell phone during davening or when a Rav is giving a shiur (whether answering it or texting or looking at the text) is worse than those kids who text on Shabbos.
They’re both bad; why do you think this is worse?
The exception of course is Pikuach Nefesh.
Then during davening or a shiur is better than on Shabbos? (I’m not sure I got your last point.)
Joseph – The younger they marry the lower the divorce rate. Those marrying in their low 20s have a lower divorce rate than those marrying in their upper 20s and 30s.
That’s not relevant to this point, which is about how early in their 20’s the boys get married; the reasoning not to push the boys into getting married younger than 22 (which I agree with) is that at 19-21, they’re not mature enough. Also, if this statistic is true, it’s also not clear which is the cause and which is the effect – maybe those with some relationship issues take longer to get married and are more likely to get divorced.
This is true across the frum spectrum. And in the Chasidic world where they marry as young as 18 and 19, they have a notably lower divorce rate than in the non-Chasidic world where they marry a bit later.
I don’t know where you get the idea that the divorce rate is different in these different communities, but even if so, you have failed to demonstrate that it’s because of age; perhaps those in communities who tend to marry younger also tend to endure a bad marriage without divorcing.
binahyeseira,
The boys don’t need to go to shadchanim, they’re in such high demand that the shadchanim are running after them. The big shadchanim go to yeshivos in Eretz Yisroel and interview and take records of the boys.
Try your best to see past what is, you’ll agree, a completely superficial issue.
I think zahavasdad made a great point. No matter how low the percentage is (we hope very), we still must do our utmost to find any perpetrator, and do whatever it takes to stop him.
I think his analogy is terrific for another reason as well. Just as something untzniusdik would draw much more attention in a library of seforim than in a secular library (which has considerably more), so does such horrible behavior stick out much more in the Torah world than in the broader society.
the girls go to professional shadchanim and the boys do not
The boys don’t have to. The shadchanim try desperately to get as many boys’ names as they can.
DY: if everyone listens to MP/AZ and refuses to rett shiduchim to 18/19yr old girls, they won’t get married.
Sure they will, just a year or two later.
This excerpted from The Jewish Press’ website:
All In The Numbers: A Mathematical Explanation For The ‘Shidduch Crisis’
Ariel Halpert, Ph.D.
Posted Jan 23 2008
Data from the U.S. Census of 2000 provides supporting evidence that our community is growing in size. From the mid-1970’s to the early 1980’s, the number of children within the New York frum community born in a given year as compared with the number born in the previous year increased by just under 1% per year. So for example, if 10,000 children were born in 1975, then approximately 10,100 were born in 1976. Then, from the early to mid-1980s, this rate increased to nearly 1.5%, and by the mid-1980’s the rate was over 2%. These numbers may not sound like much, but when viewed within a demographic model, the results can be significant.
Using the above numbers along with a simple demographic model, and assuming that the age gap between husbands and their wives averages around 3 years (with a range of 1 to 5 years), we can estimate ratios of single men to single women who are 1 to 5 years younger than them.
For single women age 20, the modeled ratio is approximately 90%, which means that for every 100 single women at age 20, there are only about 90 single men who are 1 to 5 years older in the pool of potential marriage candidates. For single women age 25, the modeled ratio is only around 80%, and for single women age 30, the modeled ratio drops to around 60%.
(His Ph.D is in mathematics.)
hello99,
You mention: “focusing on superficial traits, money, problematic personalities, lack of experience and guidance, shadchanim, unmarriagables, ease of being good girl over boy”.
These would explain why there are so many singles, but not why there are so many more girls than boys (a fact clearly observed by shadchanim). The fact that there are actually about 5% more males than females (a fact which I just read in this thread), if applicable to the frum world, would make one wonder then, why there are so many more frum girls looking for a shidduch than boys. This should force one to realize that the main issue is age gap. I can’t understand why you would think that it only “may” be a minor factor, when it is so clearly a major one. The facts of a 3-4 year age discrepancy with a 3-4% annual population increase leads to the inevitable conclusion that there’s a gender discrepency; I can’t begin to understand how this could be “debunked”.
I agree with you that there would be a tremendous drawback to having boys get married when they are not yet mature enough. As to your issue with making girls wait, that’s only indirect; the direct attempt at a solution is to convince boys (who are ready) to see “slightly older” girls. Although this would obviously slow down the rate of 18-20 year old girls getting married, I don’t think anyone is telling them that they must wait.
please don’t just assume that this is not a problem in our society/community because it is a MAJOR one!!!
Did anyone here claim that it’s not a problem? The only debate here is how “rampant” the problem is.
The pain that anyone who has experienced this horror has suffered, should be enough for we as a community to take action, without having to resort to claiming that it is a very frequent occurence. I frankly don’t know how often it does or doesn’t occur (I haven’t seen any statistics), but it almost minimizes how bad it is, when people feel the need to claim that it’s common rather than an aberration.
And although discussing that there is a problem is not loshon hara, I believe that making it seem like it’s widespread is loshon hara on our entire community, and if it’s not as widespread as being claimed, it’s motzi shem ra. Again – I don’t mean discussing it per se, but discussing it as a frequent occurrence.
anon1m0us, your math was awful (maybe there was a typo?). I quote your original example:
There are 105 boys born for 100 girls. AT year 18 there are 1,890 boys vs 1000 girls. Argument sake, 10% of the girls marry. That leaves 900 Girls versus 1,790 boys left. Year 19: There is now 1900 (another 1000 girls reach marriageable age after 18 years) girls and 3680 boys.
You multiplied the 105 boys by 18 (needlessly; there aren’t too many 1-17 year olds getting married!), and you got 1890. That equation, although meaningless, is correct. Somehow, though, when you gave the corresponding number of girls, 100 became 1000. In reality, multiplying 100 by 18 would yield 1800, so the discrepancy would be 1890 to 1800.
If I understand your question, abusing Hatzolah would be calling them for what you know to be a non-emergency. Calling them for what you thought might be an emergency, but turned out not to be, is not abusing it.
Happiest,
To repeat what others have said, even one case is one too many.
If there are indeed hundreds of cases (and the experts seemed to imply that it’s B”H not thousands), that’s hundreds too many.
However, “rampant” shouldn’t be defined by numbers, it makes more sense to be defined by percentages.
You indicated that you know a dozen or more victims (whom you met after you “started figuring things out for yourself”). This makes sense – people tend to seek out and find others with similar issues and experiences, but it’s not an indication of how widespread the problem is or isn’t.
I don’t think loshon hara or motzi shem ra on our entire community is justified, or even needed. I still agree, of course, that every reasonable step has to be taken to prevent even one more case from chas v’shalom occurring, no matter how rampant it is or isn’t.
If you are in it l’shaim shamayim, you shouldn’t let it upset you.
Would you say the same thing to a rebbe who didn’t get paid?
anyone know how to do the gorel ha Gra
I did it for you; it came up Bamidbar, 29, 29.
?
anon1m0us,
Daas: the census does take into account population growth, hence you can see the increase from various years.
Yes, but you didn’t.
Since the population is increasing, there are more 19 year olds than 23 year olds. Hence, despite overall parity (or even slightly more males), for shidduch purposes, there is great disparity.
Did you look at the census article? Click on the right side link for population growth.
No, I’m granting those stats, and that they apply to the frum world, just not to the shidduch scene (since the boys are generally older than the girls they marry).
In addition, there was a study done by the US dept of LAbor that seems to indicate that there is a 51% chance in the US for boys being born. See the Chance Magazine article “Does Having Boys or Girls Run in the Family?” By Joseph Lee Rodgers and Debby Doughty
Why do you think frum people are not affected by the same statistical outcomes as the rest of the world?
Again, both granted, but there is still great disparity when it comes to shidduchim.
Your analysis to AZ of how the problem increases as they get married is correct (although the numbers are way off). However, the disparity is in reverse, because of the fact that the boys are generally older than the girls they marry.
well the better optical reader on the 6gig one is more important that the ram because of so and so.
I’m not much of a computer expert, but I’ve heard that the newer machines and software need more memory, so don’t necessarily assume that you’ll have enough just because it exceeds what you have now (any of the experts can correct me if I’m wrong).
If you are texting when davening, you probably should not be davening at all.
Wow. What an interesting “all-or-nothing” perspective.
Sounds like Avoda Zara to me.
A totally unfocused davening is very possibly “nothing” (see Minchas Shlomo 1).
I would say it’s not worth the possibility of bracha/shem Hashem l’vatala.
I might as well tell you that I have a serious shortage of guys
How could that be? There are 104-107 males for every 100 females! 😉
anon1m0us,
Your mistake is that you are not accounting for an increasing population.
anon,
1) Any cause for people to not marry would add to the problem. I didn’t argue on this point, just on your assertion that the numbers are equal.
2) If the 18 year old girls would marry 18 year old boys, we would not have the problem anywhere near the extent that we do. It’s the 18 year olds marrying the 22 year olds which is the issue.
3) I have no idea what the census has anything to do with it. There are simply more 18 year old girls than 22 year old boys (and vice versa, but it’s rare for an 18 year old boy to marry a 22 year old girl).
I have no idea if your scientific “fact” has any validity, but it seems from comparing the size of Bais Yaakov enrollment to yeshiva enrollment that it’s not the case.
OC,
Did they pay you yet?
tobg,
Why would one tie tztzis every day? If a garment needs tzitzis, they would stay on.
The reason we use a special garment for tzitzis is because our contemporary clothing does not have four corners.
SO in essence, there are more than enough guys who sit and learn for learning boys and enough guys for girls who want working boys.
I disagree. You’re not accounting for the age discrepancy and increasing population.
Itche,
Guf naki requires more than lack of incontinence (assur lhafiach bahem).
See Igros Moshe, O”C 4, 4 who says that it is assur to go without a talis katan because of al titosh toras imecha.
He also says that this is true for any minhag, and certainly for tzitzis with which one is m’kayem a mitzvah.
It’s possible, therefore, that the normal exceptions to keeping a minhag don’t apply here.
I have heard, though that some poskim consider activities such as ball playing to be an exception, because the tzitzis might get ruined; ask your LOR (I think most say to wear it even then).
I missed an older post, so I’ll answer it first.
DY – Do you think Litvish girls with Chasidish boys is a more palatable or appropriate scenario than with YU boys?
That depends on the individuals involved, but my point is that in the vast majority, both won’t work because of the cultural differences, even if we ignore the “frumkeit” issue.
Neither a so-so ability learner (who is putting his fullest into his learning) or a strong abled learner is an am ha’aretz. So this am ha’aretz business has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
That’s actually relative; I didn’t mean it as an absolute, I was using this statement of Chaza”l to show that how well someone learns is a direct factor in his development as a ben-Torah.
If someone of “so-so” ability will really learn b’hasmodah, with proper bikush haemes, he will eventually learn quite well, in fact better than the lazy genius. If a boy doesn’t yet learn well, his development will be, to some degree, behind (if he’s a harder worker, he’ll eventually catch up and surpass those of superior talent).
He is not literally being “koneh” her – he is making a kinyan in her. If she needs an invitation to show up to her own wedding, I don’t know if things are starting off on the right foot.
I have not heard of this before.
Another vote for Dollar Tree, although many items are not consistently there.
Because its halacha.
So is bein adam lachaveiro.
It’s been added.
Anyone who talks, should be thrown out , no chances!!!
Oh please, just one more chance?? Please?
DY – My question was based on hefsek as I noted later, so then I assume it isn’t any better off.
Why should the discussion be limited to hefsek? Life’s not so simple, there are almost always multiple things to consider.
You seem to imply that someone who tries his fullest to learn will have lesser middos and religious maturity than someone is better able to learn. I totally disagree.
You are oversimplifying my position. There’s obviously more to it than that; you can find two people equal in both, yet one can be greater than the other.
However, don’t deny the ability of the Torah which one has learned to make changes in a person. I reiterate: ein am ha’aretz chassid.
Apparantly it is one step below being called an “apikores”.
No, as oomis pointed out, it has a totally different meaning and connotation.
It would seem that they have used the exact same reasoning as the Rosh Yeshiva of the Mir.
The point of “hechsher tzedek” (which is neither a hechsher nor tzedek) is to trivialize genuine kashrus and denigrate those who really beleive in it.
The point of R’ Finkel’s initiative (this is the first I’ve heard of it) is to peserve, as 600 said, “vehaya machanecho kodosh”.
Not always.
No, not always, but it’s a positive factor.
Daas – How well they are able to learn or how well they try to learn?
Both. I agree that the latter is more important to the RS”O, but the former is important as well. Ein am ha’aretz chassid. If a woman feels she needs someone with both aspects, it may be perfectly legitimate.
pba,
Al tifrosh min hatzibbur. If the tzibbur is singing praise to Hashem and glorifying His Shabbos, you shouldn’t be shmoozing. (Nor should I be shmoozing.)
real-brisker,
Sorry I couldn’t elaborate in my post; I was in the middle of aleinu. ?
You’re right that it’s bad, you’re wrong in your choice of words “as far as I’m concerned this is not any worse than talking straight out.”
You probably meant that it’s no better. (Although you’re right that it’s technically just as bad, it is not as disruptive (as Wolf said), and it also shows some level of embarrassment, which is better than someone not even acknowledging that it’s wrong.)
I wonder if he is th emost misunderstood person in the CR.
Not by everyone.
binahyeseira –
pacman: off-topic, but what exactly is the question:
is it?
1) if i wanted a working guy, why did he need to be able to learn?
2) if i wanted a learning guy, why would i want that?
3) since i’m not going to be his chavrusa anyways, what does it matter how well or not well he learns?
Pac-Man –
binah – 3.
PM, you don’t think how well someone learns has an impact on their middos and religious maturity?
Getting the nasty shadchanim under control will not end all shidduch problems, but it would solve some and it definitely has to be done…
Denying that these shadchanim exist doesn’t help the situation. If you never had to deal with any of them- I envy you. But they are out there.
I’m not denying it, I’m questioning the extent of it (I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m just countering your bad experience with my good experience; I don’t think we can ever come to a conclusion on this), and questioning the extent that such an issue would have on the gender/age disparity issue.
Both.
I’m wondering why were seeing suggestions that “litvish” BY type girls should go out with “YU types”, but no suggestions that they should go out with chassideshe boys.
Lechayim120,
Halevai a girl should have an issue because two boys agreed to go out with her!
Anyhow, it’s not a great idea because it’s hard to really focus properly on one person while simultaneously (not literally) seeing someone else.
I’m not a mod, but I forwarded your request anyhow ([email protected]).