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I agree that the “age gap issue” is a significant issue but I still believe that it is not the root of the cause, it’s a byproduct.
If all shadchanim were the most wonderful people in the world (and I’m not saying they’re not, I’m just assuming they’re not for the sake of discussion), how would the age gap issue be solved? The 22 year old boys would still be redt (in the most relaxed, pleasant fashion) the 19 year old girls, and would still marry them!
(I’ve been out of shidduchim for many years now so I wouldn’t know either way. Even when I was in shidduchim, my friends and I were not the type to make ridiculous demands.)
Same here (the difference is I never encountered a nasty shadchan, B”H); I’m assuming there’s some validity to the claims that it’s not that way nowadays, just because I hear it so much.
Thanks for your opinion, but I’m not quite sure what you are disagreeing on.
I’m disagreeing with what extent of the problem is age-gap related, and what extent is from other causes.
Once faced with the magnitude of the age gap issue, everything else pales (especially considering that, as we agree upon, most boys are married early in their “dating career”).
Hence, while I can relate to your frustration with your experience with pushy shadchanim, I can’t agree that it’s a significant part of the problem.
Similarly, I can also relate to the frustration of a family with a girl who doesn’t seem to get much interest because of a financial issue or something similar, but I can’t attribute the overall shidduch disparity to financial issues (although b’derech hateva, it very well might contribute to the problem for specific families).
I also disagree that all efforts are futile since the boy will anyway go out with whomever he wants. I believe the NASI initiative began with monetary incentives to shadchanim. Hence, faced with more choices of the more mature girls, the boys would be more likely to go out with one. Anecdotally, the stigma of a boy marrying a girl the same age or even older than him seems to have been drastically reduced, and some shadchanimm, at this point only motivated by altruism, do try to redt the older girls first.
Dr. P,
I wasn’t familiar with your position, but now that I am (at least more so), I will tell you why I disagree.
Since, as you agree, there is a disparity in the number of girls and boys “on the market”, even if every other issue were solved, there would still be many girls unmarried!
The reason the shadchanim harass the boys is because it’s so hard for some of the girls to get someone to go out with them.
With all of the problems in shidduchim (shadchanim, picky boys, picky girls, money demands, unreasonable parents, etc.), the vast majority of the boys are married within a year or two of starting to look. The major issue is that there are just not enough of them for the amount of girls there are.
Even if you were to argue that many boys are being delayed because of pointless dates (and despite your anecdotes, it’s doubtful that this is really such a major issue, as frustrating as it might be), if the mentality would be to marry someone the same age, any boy who was delayed would marry someone his age anyhow, and not contribute to the age gap problem.
Dr. Pepper,
Having read your post, I want to clarify; do you think licencing shadchanim should replace the encouragement of closer-in-age shidduchim, or supplement it?
HES ALWAYS ON THE CR!!!!!!
HOW WOULD YOU KNOW?
Exactly why the Roshei Yeshiva tell people to stay in learning.
The difference is that it’s not just a benfit for those learning, it’s a benefit fot Klal Yisroel as a whole (I’m not talking about “sitting in Kollel”, I’m talking about learning).
Mah she’ein kein with the shiduchim, where what might be better for a particular individual (or many individuals), is not necessarily a benefit for the broader society.
That is exacly what I have said previously regarding going to work vs. staying in learning.
There’s a metaphysical benefit to learning which can’t be factored that way.
OK, I thought 80 was giving you away, but he said he wasn’t.
the technical difference between OU(D) ice cream and Chalav Yisroel Ice Cream?
The OU is not claiming to have supervised the milking. “Chalav Yisroel” ice cream would only receive that designation if the milking was supervised and that milk tracked until the ice cream was packaged (unless it was under Feif Un’s hechsher ? ).
I don’t know if that’s true, but even if it is, if you would only eat CY you wouldn’t know that (even if it were true), and you would be happy with what you have (i.e. CY) since you wouldn’t know any better.
Unless you used to eat C”S.
Yes, because the poster using the name currently in use as Mod 80’s subtitle claimed computer analyst as her occupation.
When I call him to discuss potential shidduchim in the yeshiva for girls my wife knows, he does not look at age or anything the letter encourages. If he believes the appropriate match for this 20 yr old girl is a 25 yr old bachur, he says so, the same way if he felt a 20 yr old was the most suitable match.
Why did your R”Y sign it, if he doesn’t believe in doing what he signed asking people to do?
Here’s how I see the issue. Although it’s clear that closing the age gap would alleviate the numbers disparity, that doesn’t necessarily mean that a closer in age shidduch is better for the individuals involved.
If a bochur asks his R”Y for advice as to whom to marry, and the R”Y feels that he needs a younger girl (personality, maturity, etc.), then he can’t very well recommend for this bochur that he marries an older girl – it would be lifnei iver.
Similarly, if a girl (or her parents) would ask for advice (even from one of the signatories), it would seem that the best advice for her would be to try to get married as soon as she’s ready, and not wait just to help another girl.
So although there may seem to be a contradiction, there really isn’t one. On a societal basis, closer-in-age shidduchim would be beneficial, but on an individual basis, it might or might not be.
A R”Y signing in favor of the ideas of NASI is agreeing to the societal benefit, but not necessarily that it’s to the benefit of a particular individual.
Are you a computer analyst?
How would that prove anything?
I don’t think he changes character. What example do you have of that?
HaleiVi, real-brisker, DaasYochid, ZeesKite. 😉
mdd,
Oomis said “ALL”.
I am not 100% but i believe it was started after the war
The Chofetz Chaim had his famouds Kollel Kodshim before the war.
Hagaon Daz.
I prefer Basken Rabbis.
Funny, thoughtful, and poignant. Thanks.
cherrybim, Shoprite sells CY ice cream? Which?
He is not referring to what is considered C”Y by most people who use the term.
We would call that ice cream “chalav stam”.
There was a story a few years back about a rov who left in disgrace when he was accused of stealing money from the shul. B”H he was eventually cleared, but a good deal of heartache could have been avoided had everything been more transparent.
That’s another reason that Aries’ advice is very prudent.
Meanwhile, I’ll join Mod 80 and retract as well.
I’ll rephrase my skepticism and say that I don’t know if there are ghosts that are visible but not tangible (i.e. you can put your hand through them).
Rebbe used to come home on Friday night.
Does the gemara indicate that Rebbe was not tangible (which seems to be the property of these “ghosts”? I’ll see if I can find anything on it.
an incident indisputably witnessened by two Gedolai Yisroel, when they were bachrim.
Are you referring to the story with R’ Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld as a bochur and the banker who came back to give a check to the widow who used to pay to have kaddish said, and needed to marry off her daughter when she fell on hard times?
I believe in these as well, but they don’t seem to fit the same characteristics as the classic apparitions.
Did you try him at home?
I’m not saying it didn’t or doesn’t happen. I still don’t have proof that it can or does.
Are there times he’s available in yeshiva?
If R’ Moshe said it’s Chalav Yisrael, that’s good enough for me.
Did he refer to it that way conversationally?
mewho,
Important warning. I’ve seen such things happen as well.
The proof that it happens is the fact that many people have experienced it in many different levels. Many more people have heard raps, knocking, things falling, than those who (were lucky enough to) see them.
Many people also claim to have been abducted by aliens.
Cold Stone Creamery
Not C”Y according to common usage of the term. (Yes, technically according to R’ Moshe, the heter is that it’s considered C”Y.)
My family loves the Nok Out bars (chocolate – reg. size w/nuts, mini plain).
what you dont realize is that kollel is a relatively new concept introduced within the last 100 yrs
By whom do you think it was introduced, and why?
why aren’t the Lakewood rabbeim insisting that guys only date girls within a certain age range?
Because they prefer to recommend, rather than insist; why make a “gezeira” which many won’t follow (they’re not Chaza”l to make a gezeira anyway).
the Gemara says that those who die before their time hang around until their time.
With a visible form? Also, it says they “float around” (Rashi, Chagiga 5a). Do they come down to ground level?
Besides ZeesKite there is at least one or two other Joseph’s on this thread.
But not more than 12 (so far).
I wasn’t serious!
Try clicking the contact YW button at the bottom.
ZK,
Would you prefer the subtitle “my mommy named me eclipse”?
shein – Why do fathers often support their son-in-laws but not their sons?
That’s not a rule; I know of cases of fathers supporting. It probably is more common that way, though, because of supply and demand. I’m not advocating for it, I’m just saying why I think it is that way.
apy – Can you please clarify how you understand it?
What’s not clear?
???? ???? ???? ?????
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oomis – In fact the Gemarah says that a man who does not teach his son a trade, teaches him to be a goniff (or something bad like that).
Yes , Kiddushin 30b – ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ??????: ?????? ?”? ??? ????? ????? ??????
You left out the gemara at the end of the mesechta, 82b – ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? .
Your point wasn’t about squeezing the shver; you said ALL men should work and limit their learning to “free time” (your capitilization).
We can debate how many people are “learning” full time who should be working, and we can debate how many people should be learning more than they do. But B”H your approach is not being followed, or it would be the end of Klal Yisroel as we know it; it would be a tragedy of the first order to stifle the development of talmidei chachomim.
squeak,
Just ask the school administrators whether there are more students in the younger grades, and ask the shadchanim whether they have more names of boys or girls, especially the older ones.
Why would the R”Y bother to sign on it if there’s no point?
The age gap theory assumes ( it’s intuitively correct, and, I believe, statistically proven) that more children are born each year into frum homes than in the previous year. There will therefore be approximately 3% more 20 year olds (both male and female) than 21 year olds; 6% more 20 year olds than 22 year olds, and 9% more 20 year olds than 23 year olds.
The problem worsens (percentage-wise) as these singles age. Say for example, in a given year, there are 1100 23 year old boys and 1000 20 year old girls. After 3 years, let’s assume that 900 boys got married. That means that 900 girls got married as well. There are now twice as many girls as boys in this age group.
Baal Boose,
1) Sure there was a point, that it’s not a numbers issue, rather it’s the fault of the way the litvish do shidduchim.
2) This is where you missed the point. The problem is that the boys are about three or four years older than the girls they marry, and since our generations are ??”? growing, there are more girls of marriageable age than boys (19-21 is generally marriageable for girls, not boys). My next post will explain in more detail.
3) I was stronger than I usually am because your tone was one of anger at the yeshivas, yeshiva bochurim, and roshei yeshiva.
4) What facts? All (or most) anecdotal observations (some of which I happen to agree with).
6) Yes it’s a problem, and if the numbers were reversed, the problem would likely be too many demands from the girls’ side.
7) Making more than the shver or father? Highly doubtful, certainly conjecture (at best, anecdotal).
8) I was addressing Oomis.
C) Do you advocate instead, that the shver should promise support and then renege? In many cases, the shver willingly tightens his belt to support his son-in-law. I also know of cases in which the son-in-law gave up the support when he realized that his shver was struggling. In (after?) point D), you seem to concede that the norm is not the ungrateful son-in-law squeezing his poor helpless shver, so we may agree on this more than disagree.
D) Your idea of equal support is a fine idea, but how could you expect to mandate it? If the numbers were equal, it would probably pretty much happen by itself.
.???? ?
Has anyone ever theorized that Joseph might be a moderator?
Yes- there might have been a whloe thread about it once.
Genig shein !
What possible reason could there be to lie to a seven year old for tznius?
I don’t think the OP’s question was specifically about lying to a 7 year old, I think it was a 7 year old who asked a general question.
And the gemara itself discusses lying for tznius – relating to matters between husband and wife.
is that acceptable in the frum community…?
That’s a broad spectrum. The answer is that it’s acceptable to some and an oddity to others.
poor mods! they have to …
Forced labor?
I agree with Charlie, though.
Is anyone else besides me sick of this Joseph shtick yet?
I’m almost there.
There are ads for organizations which help abused spouses and children published in our most widely read newspapers. There are public forums and speeches about it. Mishpacha just finished a serial about it. What more do you think should be done?
If you marry someone with a decent income, it should be doable.
I wouldn’t.
I did it.
Besides R’ Akiva, how many can you name?
It’s clear from the gemara in Kiddushin and Menachos that it was standard procedure (machlokes Rashi and Tosafos whether for those from E.Y. or those from Bavel).
Rabi Akiva stands out for several reasons, including that he was an am ha’aretz when he left, for the amount of time he was away, and for the specific mesiras nefesh that his wife Rochel had (she became estranged from her family).