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The response to that (to Ubiqiuitin’s last several posts) is that dying al kiddush Hashem can only take place by definition if a person can’t get away.
I disagree. I think it can still be dying al kiddush Hashem, it’s just assur to do so.
I still think that my understanding of the Gemara is correct – we daven to be on the level that we would be ready and able to give up our lives al kiddush Hashem if faced with such a situation, but we are not davening to be in such a situation.
Wring IMHO on two counts.
We’re not discussing davening, we’re discussing yearning.
R’ Akiva didn’t say “when will I reach that level”, he said ” מתי יבא לידי ואקיימנו “.
I think the whole thing got combined with goyish customs as far as combining the wheat kernels with confetti and then finally leaving out the wheat altogether
That’s what I suspect happened as well.
Unless someone can show me a source in the seforim for throwing shredded colored paper, I remain skeptical.
So why don’t (didn’t?) you understand the difference between two women with one man vs. two men with one woman?
Joseph said the exact opposite of the above
No he didn’t.
What we hope and wait for, and what we put efforts (including davening) into, are not always the same.You keep equating the two, though, which is why you need to alter the simple meaning of the gemara, and why your arguments continue to be not against what Joseph actually said, but against what you think his words imply.
My arguments were mostly against what he said.
I don’t think so.
And even R’ AKiva as you point out tried to avoid it too.
Right. Not a stirah, as I said.
We are a religion of Life. Ubecharta bechaim, Vechai bahem. The things we daven for over and over are chaim. chaim aruchim, chaim shel shalom etc, Zachreinu lechaim melech chafets bachaim, melech chafetz bamisah al kiddushc hashem. There are (Few) examples I gave where we daven specificly not to have suffering or nisyonos (like R’ Akiva had). There is not a single Tefila that Ican think of where we ask for the opportunity to be killed AL kiddush Hashem.
Right. Not a stirah, as I said.
There si no source that says we should hope for that. The gemara in question does not say that and does seem to imply that. It sounds like Comforting anguished talmidim, and yes to focus on the positive even in that terrible situation that R’ Akiva tried to avoid and would have avoided if he could. H couldnt avoid it so he accepted it with Ahvava. As we would hopefully
He said he waited his entire life for the ability to demonstrate “b’chol nafsh’cho”.
But if we had a choice we would avoid being killed al Kiddush Hashem..
Right. Not a stirah, as I said.
I dont think this kind of death focus is a healthy focus and is not part of our religion
It’s not a focus on death. It’s a focus on the fact that our lives were given to us by Hashem for the purpose of serving Him, to the extent that if He asks us to give it up, we will be able to do so b’ahavah. That’s why it’s not a stirah to live our lives to serve Hashem, because that is why he gave us our lives, and at the same time, to yearn to to demonstrate that fact by giving up our lives should that be what He asks of us.
That’s different than what you originally said, that we should spend money on it.
Frankly, it would be wasted money.
I’ve never heard of another such version.
I just want to add that although it’s an interesting discussion, I think we need to focus more on living al kiddush Hashem before we can focus on hoping and waiting to die al kiddush Hashem.
Since why not hope when that time comes to die al kiddush Hashem they leave you alone and you can go on living.
The point he is making is that when it’s time anyhow, one should hope to die al kiddush Hashem.
R’ Akiva said he was always waiting for the opportunity to give his life for kiddush Hashem. He actually tried to run away from the Romans, though. There is a seeming contradiction, but it really isn’t. We don’t try to die, we try to live, yet we (should) hope to die al kiddush Hashem. There is indeedba dichotomy between what we put efforts towards and what we desire, but that is what Hashem wants from us.
I don’t really think Joseph said anything incorrect; the arguments and examples brought against him are all against what seems to be implicated in his words, (but really isn’t), but not against what he actually said, which is basically the gemara.
To say that teleportation cannot exist and is only a thing of one’s imagination is limiting our responsibility to fulfill Hashem’s Will.
Hashem’s will is expressed in the Torah. I don’t think included any of the Taryag mitzvos is to invent a teleporter.
The way Hashem created the world is that people with a financial incentive to invent new technologies will do so.
If someone (or some company) felt that it would be possible to invent one, and lucrative financially to do so, they would. The fact that nobody has (probably because nobody has the technology to do so) is in no way a violation of Hashem’s will.
DY
How have you been? Its been a whileI just noticed this. Thanks for asking. B”H terrific. I have a lot to be thankful to the Ribono Shel Olam for.
Is a misah meshuneh any death not from natural causes? Or perhaps only a painful death? I’m not sure how much you can be medayek, but in R Chaim Kanievsky’s letter to the Yifrach, Frankel, and Shaar families, he uses the term “misah meshuneh al kiddush Hashem”. If every instance of being killed al kiddush Hashem was a misah meshuneh, those words would be superfluous.
Your examples of a hypothetical reprieve for R’ Akiva, Chananya Mishoel and Azarya, and Daniel, are all poor examples, since the alternative would be continuing to live, but that wasn’t the discussion.
You have to wait.
I know there is a chassidishe minhag to make a “hadlakah” and have live music (I don’t know the rationale for it), but I think even they agree to the basic ide of “miktzas yom k’kulo” not applying until the day.
No, we’re people.
Also, why are we “flying klis” if we’re not flying?
Moderator 105: So nice of you to look into this, when so many ppl here are ignorant to any minhag they never heard of? Closed mindedness i guess?
No one has yet to bring a source for confetti.
Dancing at a wedding is brought in Chazal.
Nusach Ashkenaz doesn’t have that phrase.
Dying al kiddush Hashem doesn’t require a nisayon or even a misah meshunah (I guess depending on how you define misah meshunah) .
Why is confetti included in that? How is it a siman brachah?
No
I don’t think it’s about who is going to snitch on whom.
The presence of someone who will not get involved in any inappropriate behavior serves as a natural restraint on those who otherwise may have done so.Correct. See רש”י in the משנה in :קדושין פ.
Because נשים דעתן קלות.
Why is everyone assuming teleportation means flying?
Probably because she mentioned “flying klis”.
Lynnbrook, , a village in Nassau County was renamed Lynnbrook in 1894 by reversing the two syllables in Brooklyn. It was done because many of its residents cane from Brooklyn
Interesting fact.
Lynnebrook
No, the other one.
Well if your chulent is too watery, my first suggestion would be less water.
Are you a chef? How would you know that?
What’s the name of that pizza shop on Madison and 55th?
Ike is short for Isaac.
They’re prutzim, though. Did you ever see the loud colors they dress in?
It was a yes or no question.
If you retract tour qualifications, go back and read the “comprehensive analysis”.
All I asked for was for a *single* word.
Have you stopped beating your wife? Just a simple yes or no answer, please.
Pretty sure he meant the father of an eight day old boy (or the sandek).
Now your blank post was moderated before the link, so it didn’t help. Also, the link covers two posts, and you only put one blank post.
I know that because I saw your post (the first one under the link) for a milli-second since it was the last post moderated. But it really is blocked.
The one under it (second one under the link) hasn’t been moderated yet, but it is also blocked.
That entire post is visible to me.
I guess it depends on the browser, so two posts it is.
Lol. The mod(s) approved my post in the wrong order, so it didn’t work this time.
I had written, “Yes, when editing, it gave me the option to log the edit, and give the reason.
I had written s instead of a.”
Yes, when editing, it gave me the option to log the edit, and give the reason.
I had written s instead of a.
.
When you wrote “Apparently not”, what were you responding to?
I think this is an eitzah, without needing to be a computer programmer.
Put the link after whatever you want to say in the post, then send a blank (or meaningless) post to be blocked. The following post should be visible.
I wish they would just fix this mishugas, but meanwhile, I think this works without any fancy tags.
I blocked one post, which only said “testing”.
What’s wrong?
Could be. However, I often hear complaints that the schools are too demanding, often asking for documents verifying reported income which also contain private information.
The schools often find themselves in a no win situation.
Does that work?
Testing
What if I put a second (blank) post instead?
PSA: How to post links without blocking the post below yours 📢
Meh. Nobody’s getting into hot water for their kids’ school being closed for a few weeks.
You forgot PEMDAS. Maybe next time don’t do math while jogging.
Ok, let’s do the math. $500k per child. Divide that by 15 years of schooling (nursery, kindergarten, pre 1-A, 1-12) and you get >$33,000 annually per kid. Is that reflecting expected inflation? Presumably, salaries will also go up. I’m not sure what the point of the numbers is.
WTP, how about we choose the day the third Beis Hamikdash is built?