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Second chesedname.
AZ: The other solution “One rov in one shul in one community” that I have mentioned previously (HIRE A SHADDCHAN THAT WORKS FOR THE SHUL) seems to me like a better one.
AZ: I agree the compensation scheme is not working, but the replacement you suggest will cause its own set of problems.
If it is implemented, I hope I am wrong.
“GAW: The only service a shadcahn can provide to the singles is getting them quality dates (and helping with the technical, advising were asked and approprite).”
I don’t compensate my plumber, electrician, etc. for effort, (to use your example) only results.
If the plumber asks for payment (before starting) even if the problem is not solved, they may not be hired.
As I have said before, I have no problem if this compensation scheme is stated before the shaddchan starts. I do have an issue with this becoming the norm.
First date = 10$ all inclusive.
Second = 10 – 20 (lounge or similar 10, games or similar 20)
Third 45 – 75 (Food plus possible parking).
And that is all paid by the boy. I would feel better if this new “charge” was only paid by the boy as well, as he already has an advantage in the dating process. The girl may feel there is less of a choice to continue.
anuran: When you want a Lakewood boy, you have to find a source for Lakewood boys (i.e. a shadchan). That is a large part of the problem. If you marry local (as most did back then), a “professional” shadchan is not needed.
Lo Yitzloch: I would suggest that if you are spending that much time per date, you should state your fees up front and make them sign a contract, charging per date (or per hour). You will find that you will have a lot more time.
AZ: You are (incorrectly?) assuming getting a date is the ends (and deserves compensation) instead of the means to the end. That is due to the sorry state we are in, where girls need to fight for dates, not spouses.
“This is fair compensation”
Why? (I keep on repeating myself) Effort is expended whether there is a date or not.
Results are only a shidduch. Pay for effort (no need to EVER do so in halacha IIRC) or results.
“3 dates is clearly in the ballpark and they shadchan should be compensated.”
With all the checking done, one date is “in the ballpark”.
“the community would benefit greatly if it became commonplace”
You mean those who don’t mind paying (rich who can already throw money at the problem) and shaddchanim. I’m not sure about the community.
AZ:
Throwing money at the problem will work for those who have it.
If someone would announce publicly (and put up a bond) that there is a 100K reward for anyone who gets his daughter a shidduch, it will work just as well if not better on a case by case basis. I just don’t see why this is different than paying to get on a list. There is still the point of 3 dates being arbitrary, perhaps A date is better.
The problem is when you expand the rule to the Klal, not the individual who does so on their own accord (which is not a bad idea in any case).
There is no chiyuv to pay for effort when there are no results (as I pointed out earlier). At best it’s Lifnim M’shuras hadin. 3 dates is not a “result”.
If the issue is effort, then the cost should be for getting on the list, which already exists for many shaddchunim.
AZ:
1: There is no reason to place additional tzedaka requirements on the community for no reason. Telling me “the community will pay for it” with all of the other good causes that are not being paid for (like tuition!) seems unlikely to say the least.
2: Unfortunately quite a few, taking into account the 10+ years they may have been in shidduchim. The additional cost will also make girls “think twice” about going on that “third date” (as others have pointed out).
3: As far as the second point, your “200 girl” case is valid, so hiring a single shaddchan for the entire Brooklyn (or even Lakewood) will not work. A smaller scale (such as a shul) will.
This is not to say I am against paying to get a shaddchan to look at a girl (as per my first post). I am more against it becoming the norm (it MUST be paid) and the arbitrary definition of “success”, vs. the tangible result of a shidduch.
AZ:
People without money will be left out (and unwilling to try, due to lack of funds), even at a younger age. We already collect for the 28 year olds, are you ready to collect for the 19 year olds? Many parents can’t afford 150$ to “take a chance”, which can be multiplied 20 to 30 times (possibly) per girl.
A better idea would be for the community to pay a shadchan full time to work in a community, with tips/bonuses allowed? for successful shidduchim (similar to what has been done in the Five Towns area). This way the shadchan will work for everyone, not only those who can pay the “entrence fee”.
The shaddchan, like your plumber, can charge a fee up front for the “house call”, or for the “hours worked/dates gone out”, successful or not.
Saying this after the fact does not create a chiyuv mamon, since no benefit was given.
If this idea is implemented across all/most shaddchonim, it will cause a larger crisis than the current one.
charliehall:
Without a subsidized public option, the “actuarial” cost of entering will be too high for anyone to use when they get their condition (as well as anyone else in the individual market, due to the mean costs including those who join sick). The insurance companies will demand full payment up front for the year (even with a “rebate” for high profits, which will only be if there are any after the costs are paid), and the potential insured will not be able to enter without subsidies.
The big deal here is those subsidies, which only shift money from Medicare Advantage(?) and other programs to the new “Medicaid”. Not a bad idea in general, but not really a cost cutting help. Especially since the subsidies go into the pockets of the Insurance Companies.
What we agree would have made a large reduction in costs is tort reform and/or a Federal HC system with salaried doctors (like the VA) to create “fixed” costs, but neither of those are in the interests of the Democrats (or Republicans, for that matter), even if they are in the best interests of the fiscal (and very possibly physical) health of the nation.
Mayan_Dvash:
Like the connection. Not necessarily Dovid HaMelech himself (who was supposed to be when he was, and was given 70 years only by Adam), but Esav could have been someone like David. The potential was there (which explains why Yitzchak wanted to give Esav the Brachos).
Thank you.
In A Song YBC3
Because there is nothing worse than brother vs. brother.
It makes me sad.
Otherwise I agree with Kilo’s first response.
Mz. Cheerful:
And Leah Immainu was “expected” to marry Eisav. Sometimes you don’t marry who you are expected to, and it is a bracha (not to compare learning boys to Eisav C”V, just to use the concept).
And always be yourself. The endgame is not to get married to anyone, but to the right one for the real you. If someone fakes it, C”V that someone can just end up unmarried when the truth comes out.
B’hatzlacha.
oldmanhonah:
Action packed like bang bang?
I find WWII history (perhaps “The Youngest Partisan”) is good with that.
Otherwise try the lists mentioned above.
If your (older) child is a good reader (or for teen girls) I would suggest anything Agatha Christie.
It comes highly recommended. 🙂
For a younger child that does not get scared easily I would go with “the butter battle book”, if the child does, try “fox in socks”.
BP Totty: Hear Hear! I second.
AZOI.IS said:
“Not neccesarily, the unmarried guys, as they age, often just want a more modern lifestyle including TV and Movies and a more cool, possibly less Tzniusdik girl. Few go to the lengths you describe.”
And the girls are not willing to go out with such a boy, it seems. The girls stick to their ideals, and because of it, can’t find a boy?
Is this a crisis or a matter of choice?
I can only try:
Its not only affinity, its also exposure. Without exposure, children will not be aware of the possibilities out there.
In addition, for the yeshivish world, anything labeled an elective will be dismissed by rabbaim who will push for learning instead. The only possibility is an either/or, and that takes money (as you point out).
agree with feivel. Also so the children have something to gamble when playing Draidel.
“I know there are posters here who have careers which require advanced math and/or scientific knowledge.”
BS”D
That would be me.
i think we are in this world of preparation and purification of our Neshama for a very very short time. this is not a nice theoretical thought. this is the meaning of our lives. this is THE Emes.
i think we should not spend it in an environment of pritzus, letzonus, kalus rosh, apikorsus and tumah
Therefore…….. Feivel will support me in Kollel & pay my full tuition so that I can learn in peace 🙂
What I really think is that people need to make a serious cheshbon if they are really “learning” or just sitting, and how they intend to contribute to Klall Yisroel via their learning. If they will make a significant contribution, than the Kesef Mishna applies and they should only learn (and don’t need any additional Chol).
However, to decide what each boy (or girl) will be doing for the rest of their lives (parnassah, advanced studies or not) at the age of 14 is a disaster, unless what I posted earlier is true and the gedolim are pushing the Khal into a state of dependency on purpose (similar to what happened in EY) in order to force boys to stay in learning. If they are, who are we to argue?
So my short answer to ICOT is no, but only to allow someone to decide to become a doctor, engineer, etc. if they so desire, and not to decide before high school to limit our children.
“How else can they work in the real world if they cannot read and write?”
Perhaps that is exactly why what you saw is being done.
It has already happened in EY, there is no reason why we should think it is not being implemented in the US.
Artchill: “I have always been against the wealthy parents bailing their kids out of trouble caused by misbehavior.”
The parents or the kids? The parents have the right if they so choose (any different than George W.?) as they pay for it, and the kids don’t know better.
And you are correct, that the English department is at best ignored, if not denegrated, by the Hebrew department, and that is also a cause of the lack of derech eretz.
And in many schools outside NY, nothing is mandatory. Wasn’t there something recently about Lakewood yeshivos that they will stop teaching english subjects after fifth or sixth grade?
MaKesher:
What do you mean by “today’s society”?
bombmaniac:
That is my bottom line as well. The VA does the best job of the three, since they do not pay-per procedure (possibly the main reason for health care inflation), and has a strict, evidenced based formulary.
BS”D
charliehall:
Good point on the chronic illness, that is why in many states there is specific HIV drug coverage (which is well paid for).
As for lawsuits, the Feds can withhold funding for these programs to states that don’t pass reform, just like they did with highway money & the speed limit.
Third, the USA is made up of multiple cultures, and (I know you may not like this if you are a “liberal”, but its how I feel and think is true) certain cultures view certain “bad” things, such as dependency, fraud, and single parenthood / WIC babies as acceptable. The country as a whole is moving closer to the average citizen (let alone inhabitant) becoming more willing to accepting these as the norm. And if you attempt to change the culture, the “race” or “ethnicity” card is played.
The “public option” is feared (see the Joe Lieberman interview in the WSJ) to be the first step to single payer/canadian type system, in which doctors must follow the guidelines and are not allowed to work outside the system. In addition, the “proposed minimum coverage” will (correct me if I am wrong) disallow HSA plans with high deductibles, which is the only real “insurance” product out there (the rest are coverage).
Also, we talk about “the wealthiest society”. America is split by culture, and many of our citizens/cultures are not in that “wealthy society”, but are stll counted in the average (which throws it off). When a ceratin group is known to have a large percentage of its male youths in prison, they are not part (for worse, and it is not a good thing) of “the wealthiest society”.
Last, who says what type of care will be offered (or should be)? as the President said, take the pill and not the surgery, but how about pain? Why should we, as the taxpayers, pay for a drug for someone else with fewer side effects? AND WHO SHOULD DECIDE?
If part of the bill would be that only generic drugs (not more expensive versions) are covered (with the excption of illnesses where there is no generic that does ANYTHING), then that would also help. Why cover Lipitor if Zocor works 95% of the time just as well?
I have my own ideas on how Universal HC should be done (a VA/Kaiser Permanente type system), but that is well off.
I look forward to your response.
PY: Once again, it is the choice of many schools not to spend money that they will never be able to raise back. This may be due to poor alumni connections, but (mostly?) due to many of the HS themselves pushing the students not to get a high earning (i.e. college/masters educated) job, and the parents not really caring either.
I am not familliar with the programs you mention, but it sounds like something DRS would encourage.
charliehall:
I agree, with a number of caveats. There is a limit as to how much one must spend to “do a mitzva”. I’m not sure (much to my own chagrin) that there is a mitzva to spend money to help an Aino Yehudi, and it may very well be assur to do so with no payment/as a gift (If Rabbi Tendler spoke about this as well, please tell me). In addition, the idea of the country going bankrupt & under the influence of China (who does not allow religion to be taught to those under the age of 18!) is a factor that must come into play.
More so, there is no chiuv to have “punitive damages” when a doctor makes an honest mistake. If the President would add real tort reform to the proposed law (or push for it from the Oval Office), I would think this is more about health & less about ideology.
Last (and greatest), anyone can walk into a hospital’s ER and get treated, and can not be forced to leave until stablized (which in extreme cases, can take over a year). So this does not seem to be a direct point of Pikuach Nefesh in either case. It may only prove what Chazal say regarding “Bechol Meodecha”; There are those who favor their money over their life.
NY Mom: I know it sounds horrid, but I meant doing so without the shadchan (but giving the shadchanis if it works).
If they have gone out on “more than four dates”, they can restart without a shadchan if needed.
itsallyourfault:
How about a family member of hers. It he/she says: “I saw itsallyourfault and he wishes he could get a second chance” or similar, that would be more informal but still allow her not to say no to your face.
Go for it. Worst thing that will happen is she will say no. Why wait if you think she could be the one?
Just don’t make it seem pushy.
A different tack (although youdontknowme has some good advice):
Try to go out with someone who is normal, instead of someone who fits into the box of what you are looking for. Is 5 years in Kollel that neccessary versus just 2 (just as an example). Someone who wants to live OOT is also given a short stick (even though they are normal for everything else :-), perhaps that is the direction you should try.
If you are willing to look outside the box that has been created for you by society & Sem, you will Bezras Hashem find many normal boys who just don’t have an exact “fit” into our current society’s expectations, but who will make an amazing spouse and father who will buld a home of Torah.
B’hatzlacha and may we hear simchos.
G@W
PY:
Advanced classes cost money for supplies & teachers. The schools have made the decision not to pay for these, and therefore have lower tuition.
I also think that the boys schools in the five towns (specificly DRS of which I know a little about, but others to a lesser extent), as well as a number of the girls schools there, do allow a child to prepare themselves for excellence in both/either Kodesh or Chol (to use your terms). The costs are also more than triple what has been posted for an average brooklyn school (for DRS).
Where I am, the boys yeshiva HS do not have “Chol” up to the level that I would like, but at least the schools do take it seriously enough that a graduate has the ability (if they apply themselves in HS) to go to a normal college if they so desire.
It’s suposed to be why the first of April is called “April Fools”, since only “fools” would believe a conception without a human father happened on that day 🙂
(9 mo. before the Dec. 25 time)
Happy holiday(s) for me for all of these days, except those who follow the spagetti monster. They get a Happy Pirate’s day, an “Ahoy!”, or an “Arrgh!”.
Isn’t the title by definition an oxymoron?
Mrs. Tzippi:
(Let me first say up front I do have some negius, as I am well aware of Moshe’s work in the field).
The point being made (which is a good one) was that assuming the girl wants to marry a learning boy, she is in a better “position” (and therefore brings more to the table) if she gets married later than earlier (as she will have more saved up). Its only the “crisis” that makes people (read: boys & their mothers) think that a younger 19 year old girl is better for them than a more settled (and more able to support) woman.
Your point is a different discussion: Why are the girls insisting on someone who will B’Davka NOT support THEM!?
(as required by the kesubah, as many have pointed out)
Unless, of course, you hold that one may not mention Dvarim Assurim to say they are Assur 🙂
(Note to mods: attach to prior post)
MM:
The person in the case was not frum, and the point was to say how what they were doing was assur (and changed once they became “frum’).
So there is good reason referring to such an issur m’doraisa in a book written by and for frum yidden would be considered one of the main points of the book.
feivel:
What you said seems to be Calvinist. Please explain how this interacts with the ideas of Bechira, Halachah, and the concept of a “D’var Rishus”.
Thanks
G@W
rwndk1, and get CE credits at the same time, charging their company’s and making profits for the org. that sponsors.
One of the problems of Jewish novels is that the editor/publisher will edit out any “buzzwords”, even if they are used by frum yidden.
For example, a friend of mine (a well known jewish author) has told me that he had to get the concept of “a girl who is a friend” across (in a platonic sense), without mentioning the boy & girl were friends.
This is without the controversy caused by some rabbonim/authors who decide to go the “Israel Trade Co.” route, V’Hamaivin Yovin.
“An engagement is not a pot of soup.”
Wise words.
And the point is a good one as well. 🙂
oomis1105: A Shaila (in this case) is not neccessarily to a Rav. The Bais Shmuel in question says its (breaking up) OK if “many people are asked”. That would (seemingly) mean that advice was asked from multiple sources, none of them having to be a Rav. They could be a grandparent (Parents may be Nogayah), Rebbe, Morah, Shrink, Social Worker, etc. People with whom the guy/girl feels comfortable discussing the issue and are aware of possible problems / are experts so that they can give good advice.
oomis1105: In fact, the Magen Avraham there (as quoted by the Be’er Haytev) specificly states that one gets a mitzva by inviting guests, even if its not included in that definition of “Hachnasas Orchim”.
BS”D
WolfishMusings:
That is exactly the “Machlokes” between the shaddchan & the OP. Is one allowed to talk/date/get married outside the oversight of a shaddchan.
It seems to me that this is similar to the story with the storm, where after the person is nifter in the storm he complains to Hashem “But I Had Bitachon!”; and Hashem answers that I sent you a boat, helicopter, etc. but you didn’t take it.
The shidduch crisis is also a “storm”, and when Hashem sends someone (boy or girl) your way, you are best off taking His help.
oomis1105:
I was just as surprised when I learned the halacha.
The fact that it does not qualify as “Hachnasas Orchim” does not mean it does not qualify as “Gemilus Chessed”. The point which I was trying to make (for that point) was technical, not that it should not be done.
Jothar said: “When Chazal tell us “al tarbeh sicha im isha” (pirkei avos), they didn’t say “but the mitzvah of Hachnosas Orchim will be destroyed if we say this!” clearly there are ways to do both.”
Well said. Especially since that Chazal is dealing (IIR) with Ishto Niddah 🙂
jewishandworking22: Look at SA that MM & I brought. That is why we do it @ the chupah.
One should remember that Ynet is an Israeli site, and many people in Israel (correctly or not) view Charaidim (not Orthodox, what they would call Dati) as people who sit and contribute nothing to society, take their tax shekels, blackmail the government, and most of all, don’t serve in the army and would mostly prefer an Arab government.
I think the comments would be directed at any seeming “Fifth column”, deserving or not.
MM: or mutual agreement.
MM:
Number one its in Even Haezer, not Yoreh Dayah (we are not dealing if the girl is a traifah 🙂
Two, if you read the Beis Shmuel there, what he says there is a seperate chairem (“Hakehillos”, not “Geonim”) is only if the breakoff is not mutual, or “many people are asked”. Meaning that for no reason it should not be done unilaterally, but if one’s Rav tells them to break off (perhaps with a second opinion), the chairem does not apply.