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I just lost money to a Nigerian businessman. 🙂
Promised me lots of money if I sent him my CC #.
Send me your CC# & Code on the back & we can discuss our “problems” 😉
Who cares what others think. You do what you feel is right, Torahdik & Yashar, and if others don’t like it, we will see who is correct after 120.
“gavra_at_work, Increased demand may be part of the cause of the expectation, but once everyone expects, the girls that do support (without giving up the new car) are limited.
Not a bad theory, but, in fact, the vast majority od boys do get married.”
Of course, because they can marry 20 year olds!
aries2756:
You are discribing the current system (for many players) well.
I am sorry, but I still think this whole thing is disgusting and is more like the commodities market or finding the right shoes for the right dress than it is actually for two people to find the person they really like and want to spend the rest of their lives with, building a future for generations.
The tone of this whole thing is undignified and wrong. Then when you see analysis comparing someone solely by the variable on being in their very low 20’s versus approaching their mid 20’s, and setting a price on that, I have to say this entire thing is absurd and this organization should be ashamed for putting an actuarial outlook to human beings and family life.
In the deli they charge by the pound. For a future wife and mother, you dont charge by the year. Disgusting!!
Your approach is called “head in the sand”. It is mistakenly thought to be used by the ostrich, when being faced by a lion. In order to avoid being eaten, the ostrich sticks its head in the sand. If it can not see the lion, it is thought, then the lion can not see it, and the lion can not eat the ostrich.
Fact is, we have a problem. Denial will certainly get us nowhere. You may disagree with the proposed solution (I do as well), but there is still a problem, and putting an actuarial outlook to human beings and family life defines the problem well.
DY: Cherrybim put it well; I have nothing to add to the “Kovea Itim” point. JCP, WalMart & Target are hiring. You may not get exactly what you wanted, but at least you will have a job. And yes, there may be very good reasons why not to take the job, but
then you have to look in the mirror and make up your mind that a job is not worth it (which it very well may not be).
As far as “full time support”, we agree that it reduces supply to those that can not afford. Increased demand may be part of the cause of the expectation, but once everyone expects, the girls that do support (without giving up the new car) are limited.
“I think the emotional onaa that this “project” is putting on financially strapped people,”
What about tuition? Should that be reduced too- or be free? Isn’t that putting a strain on struggling families? Health care? Cost of living?
This is a necessity like any other.
In case you haven’t noticed, the older single who post here don’t seem to mind-The people who are standing on the sidelines offer criticism but no viable solution.
I agree. If you can’t pay full tuition, you should beg borrow cheat or steal to get it. Why should tuition be any worse than a shaddchan!
🙂
I have addressed it. It IS an age gap thing – supply and demand.
And as others have pointed out, Age gap is only part of the lack of supply. Removal of supply (by “full time support” & “not Kovea Itim / minyan every day”) is also, if not as, important.
An additional point:
I actually do know a number of single boys. They are either:
1: Looking for full time support (and are not getting it as of yet)
2: Not interested in marrying someone who will make them go to minyan 3 times a day.
One of the problems is that girls can’t afford the former, nad are unwilling to marry the latter.
In Europe 10+ children was quite common. So there was certainly at least as much, if not more, population growth. And as others pointed out, there was an age gap there too, as it wasn’t uncommon for notably older bochurim (or even widowers) to marry considerably younger brides. So the question still remains, what’s new in the 21st century that makes this a new problem? The suggestion that the problem was simply ignored (or oblivious) for hundreds of years, and simply allowed to fester, doesn’t shtim.
Lower childbearing mortality. I do admit that if 2% (just making up a number) of women die in childbirth, then the crisis would not exist (as is now).
More work = better schools = more students = more money for school owners.
Simple Algebra.
But seriously, can she answer if the Avodah was done with someone in the Heichal, does it have to be redone or not?
🙂
apushatayid:
OK. That very well may be one of the Chesronos of the path chosen.
Der Geller:
The way I see it, the Gedolim have conflicting goals as regarding what needs to be done for Klal Yisroel (for a simple example, pay for yeshiva and learn in Kollel). Sometimes a tough choice needs to be made for the best of the Klal, and one ideal is prioritized, even though there are others that will lose out.
Social engineering? Machiavellian? Maybe. But there have never been more learners and Kollel men since the Bais HaMikdash.
Not without more info.
For example, is it a Da’as Yochid? Sha’as Ha’dichak? Hefsed Meruba? Who else agrees with the p’sak?
Eidiyos ?,?
?,? ???? ????? ??? ????, ???, ???? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ????. ??? ??, ???, ??? ?? ???? ??. ??? ??, ??? ????? ??? ???????, ??? ???? ??? ???????; ??? ????? ???????, ??? ???? ???????. ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????, ???? ???????; ???? ????? ???? ?????, ?????? ????? ???????. ??? ??, ???, ??? ???? ??????. ??? ??, ???? ????. ??? ??, ??? ????? ???? ??. ??? ??, ???; ????? ??????, ?????? ??????.
Why is there no response to Lechayim120- Everybody seems to have conveniently skipped that one!
Or you skipped OfCourse.
Not one bit. There is still ZERO mention or discussion about demanding more accountability from our boys.
I’ve posted this before, but I think its worth repeating:
We do not have an “older girls / age gap” shidduch crisis
What we have is an “under qualified / under motivated” boys crisis. In other words, a quiality / confidence crisis.
So the only logical choice for a 25 y/o boy,is to date a girl 5 years his junior. To do otherwise, would make him look foolish
Solve the quality / confidence crisis,and you “solve” the shidduch “crisis”
And you never will, as long as the yeshiva system stays in place. So tell me, who cares if the boy is 19 or 22, if the boy is just as underqualified?
Your issue is a general sociological problem, that men are just getting more stupid. Read the article I originally posted on the thread (prior to this). Google “the atlantic all the single ladies”.
gavra_at_work-
I would hope that once one reaches twenty they realize that they are not a youngster anymore and that they have to mature.
If not then I agree with you 100% that if at 22 (or 40 for that matter) they are still on the same maturity level of a teenager then they should not even be thinking about getting married.
But do either happen in the yeshiva atmosphere?
Source is beginning of the fifth perek in Bava Basra, by the Leviyasan Gemorahs.
I agree with that. I am just surprised that you actually seem to think it is also a good idea.
All the reasons why it is a bad idea don’t apply in the yeshivish world except two:
1: Beis Medrash pays in, Kollel gets paid.
2: No BC (which again makes no sense whatsoever).
popa_bar_abba
It will not happen, but it is the only non-neis solution.
Dr. Pepper:
With all due respect, yeshiva guys at 22 are no more mature than they were at 19 (they have not had any experiences that would teach them responsibility, etc.), and no more ready to support a family than they were at 19.
I’m not disagreeing with you that many are immature, bit that is just as true at 22 as well. At least at 19 many have not picked up Yeshiva dorm habits!
(personally, I think 19 has to come along with BC until they are ready, but I don’t think the roshei yeshiva would go for it (which I can’t understand at all! They would rather the boy wait to get married? That makes the issue worse.))
Finally, we are already in a “divorce crisis”. If the couple had no choice other than to be “protected” under their parents wing (as being younger), they could figure a way to work it out (assuming they are normal and CAN be married).
No. When the Roshei Yeshiva implement their “boys married at 19” idea, that will be a gamechanger. This is nothing, and possibly less than that.
heh heh. 19 year old guys.
We’d have a different shidduch crisis. Women not being willing to marry kids.
Only if you call a 19 year old kid straight out of sem a “woman”.
I certainly wouldn’t.
gavra_at_work: guys getting married at 19? i think thats a bit young, no? although on the other hand i do think its important for boys and girls to marry young so they can grow together…
Why? Because they need to be able to earn a living? 🙂 Kollel is cheaper than bais medrash tuition!
Any concrete suggestions from the esteemed members of the CR to help facilitate the setting up of older singles?
Guys should get married at 19. That way the overbalance of girls will move the other way.
BTW, I hope that is the “behind the scenes plan” That AZ/Moshe discusses in the letter via the “structural changes by the Roshei Yeshiva”.
While I am at it, AZ, the money has to be put in an escrow account by a reputable law firm, not some vague promises that the money will be available when needed.
See the Rambam in Perek 11 of Hilchos Eidus where he defines Am Ha’aretz from that Gemara as someone who we can assume doesn’t keep Halacha (because we have seen that he is not learned and because he does not have proper Derech Eretz).
Sounds like a good definition to me!
Interestingly enough, I was listening to Rav Schachter’s shiur online last night right after reading this thread. (Mods don’t let links to YUTorah, but it’s titled Shiur #21-Yevamos-Chazara under R’ Schachter.) He quotes that some people still hold that we are all Amei Ha’aretz Bizman Hazeh (because no one accepted to become a Chaver in front of 3 Chaverim) and that he was once by a Rosh Yeshivah in E”Y who wouldn’t give him anything that needed Terumos and Ma’asros taken off because no one can trust anyone else Bizman Hazeh for Terumos and Ma’asros.
It is one of the Brisker Chumrahs. I’ve seen it in practice, and have posted it before IIRC.
Also add to you list Pesulei Eidus, etc. from ????? ?? ? that yitayningwut posted.
Your landlord is not responsible for your property. Everyone who rents needs to have renters insurance.
Ditto
GAW – “1: I am married to a wonderful person (with wonderful children, BH).”
Sorry, got you mixed up with another poster.
No Problem 🙂
GAW: And what do Chazal talk about an Am Ha’aretz in regards to usually? (And yes, I’m assuming that Bechol Makom means most places, not everywhere.)
I didn’t make that assumption, and I never counted. When you are done going through shas and you have counted, please let me know 🙂
GAW: I’m pretty sure that Gemara is only talking in regards to Tumah Vetahara.
Sam, see Rashi there.
Consider yourself lucky -that people want to go out with you.
Sorry to say, here in Lakewood nothing has changed!
I thank Hashem often that:
1: I am married to a wonderful person (with wonderful children, BH).
2: I don’t live in Lakewood (not to disrespect others that do, but it is not for me).
I’ll tell you why -because s/o who isn’t the biggest Macher or come from a rich or Yichus family -no one Redds them anything.
Maybe before now. Now, the phone rings for the guys because they have a pulse and a Yarmulka, and not for girls, who many just don’t get called.
To quote Yeshaya HaNovi (Beshaim Hashem):
? ?????-?????? ????-????????, ?????????? ???-?????? ??????, ???????? ????????????? ??????, ????? ??????; ?????-?????? ?????????, ??? ????? ??? ??????. {?}
? ????-??? ????? ??????, ???????????? ?????? ?????????? ???-????????????, ?????????, ????????? ??????????; ?????????????, ???????????. ? ?????????? ????? ????????? ????????????, ??? ??????–????, ????????? ???????????: ???? ?????? ??????-???, ?????? ??? ????????. {?}
Did I misunderstand?
Yes. As I then said..
“miritchka is correct though, as well.”
who said “better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all”.
I am aware of Reish Lakish, though it is an interesting question where and when it applies. See Yevamos 118B, V’Dok (especially the last four words).
apushatayid:
I’m not saying it is not better to be married than not, but to claim being single is worse than being abused/Anusah is just crazy.
Nathan Bedford Forrest
Not without the willingness on the part of the spouse that something is wrong, which most shlubs can’t even dream of.
A lifetime remaining single is perhaps the worst life a girl can have.
Sad, and obviously false.
Abuse, perhaps. Being used as nothing but a receptacle, maybe. Single? Nothing wrong with being single.
miritchka is correct though, as well. It is just the absoluteness of your comment that is wrong.
What makes someone be considered as “Off the Derech”.
Someone who is content to be stagnant, and not grow in Avodas Hashem. They are off the path of Avodas Hashem, as someone who is not an Oleh must be a Yored.
Someone who wants to grow, even if they are currently low, is an Oleh and “on the Derech”, and vice versa.
?”? ????? ?”? ?? ????? ???? ?”? ????? ?????? ???? ?’ ?????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? ????? ?’ ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?’ ??? ?? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??”? ????? ?????? ???’ ??? ???? ??? ??? ?”? ??? ?? ?”? ?”? ???? ???? ??????
Brachos 47B.
Worst decision I ever made. I was desperate, and I settled big time.
Not uncommon, given the “crisis”. In the secular world, the problem is more common, except that there the girls are more willing to remain single. (Google “the atlantic all the single ladies”). Many guys ARE deadbeats (although “kollel” can cover it up, for non learners). And yes, better to be single than marry someone who has no ability to treat you correctly.
I am not a spokesperson for NASI, nor am I in any way affiliated with them, with that said; Has NASI ever billed itself as the champion of the aniyim? Is NASI the only group out there involved in shidduchim? If anyone has an issue with a shadchan who is part of this program, dont use their services, even if it is through a vehicle outside this program.
No, but they have billed themselves as looking for a complete solution. This is a path to more problems for most of the poplulation at hand.
What about those that can’t afford it?
Is NASI abandoning the aniyam of Klal Yisroel?
One good thing has come out of this….Shein and I have found some common ground 🙂
????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? (Nedarim 81a)
cinderella- Why is this disturbing? Professional shadchanim work all day and night, not 9-5. Is it disturbing that your son’s Rebbe gets paid for teaching your kid Torah? Why should they not get paid for their hard work?
Most people can’t pay the rebbe either, but he still teaches. Most Rabbaim also doesn’t get paid on time, but they still teach.
Professional shadchanim are businessmen/women, just like Doctors & Accountants (who also provide a needed service, which may even be a mitzva). Don’t begin to compare them to our Rabbaim, who swaet with little monatary reward Leshaim Shomayim.
I don’t like this at all.
1: The money is in whose bank account? Ribbis and or controls are a definite issue here.
2: They are perpetuating the crisis instead of solving it. Throwing money at a problem never solves it (see: inner city schools, specificly the Kansas city project).
3: Poor girls don’t have a problem? It proves their interest is in Gelt, not helping those who need it the most.
Now to their defense, they probably feel that they have tried everything else, and this is the last thing they can try.
However, any real solution will not occur until there are major structural changes in the system, which is imbedded and there are too many players who would lose out if there was a change.
and many others continue to hate it for the duration of the year and are traumatized by all the homesickness etc. But for shidduch purposes they pretend they loved it and that they grew so much from the experience.
Sad and sadder, but very true.
Since the men “get the front” (like the way my 16 year old sister cries for it,” I get the front!”) the women fel second class. thats all.
The argument goes that the men can’t sit in the back, as that would be “behind” a woman. The counterargument is that a Mechitza can be placed between the front & back, and men can still sit in the back.
And I thought it was the story of a 70 year old guy climbing Zion Canyon in Zion National Park, and how others can follow.
You know, a story of “inspiration and perspiration”.
In other words, when they fish, and by mistake pull up octapus or shark , whose mashgiach is standing on the boat or over seeing the processing that they ONLY take out the TUNA fish and dump the rest back?
The star K has a moshgiach checking every fish.