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Points well taken. Question. If you disagree with the hashkafos taught by the school/seminary why are you (or your children) in that school?
Mine are not (as I pointed out earlier).
KFB:
Very good point. However, we Yidden have decided not to trust an Eid Echad running a business (in general).
She is more than welcome to open with a notice where the Hechsher would be: “Run by Very Frum Woman” (She can even have two verys). I don’t think she will get very far.
Assuming the question is regarding Dying, no.
Hashem will take me when He is ready to do so. I trust Him that when it happens, it will be for the best.
Furthermore, the famed Machlokes between Bais Shammai & Bais Hillel (whether it is better to be born or not) applies here as well. Once Hashem takes me, I can no longer do Avairos, and it is much easier to do an Avairah than a mitzva.
BJJ teaches in Ivrit?
Michlala is not a Seminary. It is a college. Different Idea.
As far as the OP, if you actually want to learn something and not party/chessed/”frum out”/reprogram, why not BJJ?
kfb:
I don’t see the issue. Do you work for others without payment? Or with the promise that “If I am successful, then I will pay you”?
If so, please come work for me. I promise (Beli Neder) that if we make money, I will pay you a salary. If not, you will be stiffed.
oot for life
I don’t understand. You are saying the choice is Gedolim or Parents. OK. But in your previous post it seemed to me as if you were saying it was teacher vs parents with rav. Is the teacher following gedolim and the parents/rav not?
I’m used to a small town community where the teachers and parents work together very closely (and are often the same people). That could be why I’m shocked by the comment.
My experience from Sem reports (which is what I base my comments on, not my children’s teachers, who I have good things to say (and don’t try to pasken)) is that they don’t really care about Halacha. They have an agenda to make everyone agree to there own personal feelings (or their husbands’) on what the halacha should be, and CLAIM that is what the Gedolim want. The last thing the teachers want want is for a girl to verify or ask questions to an actual Rov, Posek or Gadol.
Both the Shulchan Aruch and the Rambam (which I understand why the mods don’t want to post it, it is Issurei Biyah 21:7) hold there is no problem whatsoever. For someone to make up a machlokes without showing any sources, when it is “Offen in Shulchan Aruch” that it is Muttar, is highly suspicious.
I’ve just heard too many first hand stories of “If you don’t have two sinks, you’re eating traife” and “Girls are not allowed to talk on the street” from girls schools & Sems. They do not have a Chezkas Kashrus in my book.
That is a pretty strong accusation care to elaborate?
The old “who do you follow? The Gedolim or your parents?”
Common enough.
The Rambam Issurei Biyah 21 (and the SA agrees):
? ????: ???? ??? ???? ???, ??????, ????? ???? ?????? ???, ??? ??? ?? ???–?? ??? ??? ?????. ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????, ???? ????? “????? ????? ?????? ????” (?????? ??,?)–?? ??? ??????, ??? ??? ??????. ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????, ?? ??????, ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????, ?? ?? ?? ??? ?????–??????? ?????? ???, ??? ????? ????? ??? ??????.
Go to your teacher, and ask her to show you sources. Never take her word for it.
My teacher told us today
Understand that your teacher has ulterior motives into creating separation between you and your parents. Chances are she is not a posek, and she does not know Halacha.
YOU go ask your own Rov (as in the Rabbi of the shul that you and your father daven). Not some “teacher” who never read a Shach.
It seems that there are some people posting who confuse Litvish with modern.
Completely incorrect. The litvish gedolim (such as the Moetzes in Europe, Rav Moshe, Rav Aharon, Rav Shneur, etc.) Pasken L’Halacha that an actual mechitza is not required at events, just separation, and that families should sit together at the Shabbos table even with other families (Famous story with Rav Shneur regarding that point). The Chassidish Gedolim (Ger, Satmer, etc.) held L’Halacha that men and women should be separated by mechitzos, not eat together on shabbos, etc.
The source of the Machlokes is how the Bais Hamikdash was set up during the Simchos Bais Hashoeiva.
The story goes that at the first Moetzes in Europe, there was no mechitza set up (the women were on a balcony). They were all ready to start, when the (IIRC) Gerrer Rebbe threatened to walk out because the lack of a mechitza was against his shitta. L’maan Hashalom, they gave in, and ever since, the Agaudah has had mechitzos.
Toi:
If you want to start a new thread regarding Rabbi Dr. Lamm (and the “Speech”, feel free. Don’t hijack this one.
As far as the points (as per my understading of Rav Moshe Shapiro): Torah contains the blueprint of the briyah. “Nistakel B’Oraysah U’Bara Alma”. Some, like Avraham Avinu, were able to “reverse engineer” the Torah based on the Briyah. Some (for arguements sake, lets say Shlomo HaMelech) are able to understand the Briyah via the blueprint. Almost all (those not on the level of Avraham Avinu or Shlomo) are unable to understand one from the other. Therefore they need both sources, as they complement each other.
Toi:
That is why I brought in Rav Moshe Shapiro, whom without the concept sounds strange.
Think of it as what we see (the path of Avraham Avinu, who saw Torah in the Briah), vs. what we know conceptually (via the Torah). Both are needed to get full perspective of the Emes of the Ribbono Shel Olam.
I’m still trying to get my mind wrapped around the concept myself. (And I personally don’t hold of it, but it seems to be a valid shitta even by some of the Charaidi sector)
What is the problem with eating at someones house with teenage girls
Never heard of it. Have heard of the problem with eating someones house, or the problem with eating teenage girls.
People are friends not food.
Cut into its simplest terms, Torah Umadda means that knowledge of non Torah subjects is a worthwhile pursuit for its own sake.
My quote from above seems to disagree.
It seems (and I don’t really know) that Rabbi Dr. Lamm understands Torah & Mada as two sides of a coin, with both being necessary ways to get to Hashem’s Emes. As Rav Shapiro explained a concept (not Torah U’Madda), there is the Briah, and then there is what is behind the Briah. One should understand both, and one without the other is lacking.
In Lakewood it’s impossible to keep up! Now whether this is due to the lack of caring from the rich people here or maybe because every Schnorrer in the world comes collecting from them and they don’t have enough to go around or because there is a very high percentage of poor people here -I don’t know. S/o could start a topic about this because it seems talking about Lakewood is the favorite subject of the day!
I’m not interested in bashing Lakewood, or any other community (If you could call Lakewood a community). If someone else figures out why Lakewoodians (if they can be called that?) can’t keep up, please let me know.
Maybe it is a big city/small city thing (and Lakewood is a big city, over 100K people!)
From Wikipedia, quoting Rabbi Dr. Lamm:
Torah, faith, religious learning on one side and Madda, science, worldly knowledge on the other, together offer us a more over-arching and truer vision than either one set alone. Each set gives one view of the Creator as well as of His creation, and the other a different perspective that may not agree at all with the first … Each alone is true, but only partially true; both together present the possibility of a larger truth. (ibid, p. 236)
Sounds like something I heard B’shem Rav Moshe Shapiro.
Boruch Hashem, I believe you are wrong, especially in the out of town communities. I can’t speak for Williamsburg, but where I live and where my relatives are (three different communities), we make sure everyone in the community has food and medical care. What else is a community for? Satmer Bikur Cholim is supposed to be famous for this!
If you are first worrying about shidduchim now you are way too late.
It doesn’t matter at this point.
Well since that time Lakewood acquired kedusha and must be noted as such. You have to be kidding me. I dont know where to start! The crowded lake for taschlich? The open celebrations on Simchas Torah? The learning and davening opportunities that go on as we speak? The minyanim with yidden of every kippa type? From the border of route 9 Lakewood and Toms River, up to Howell just after Shop Rite and out to Jackson and Brick. The wonderful and beautiful things that go on are countless. Lakewood, other than Yerushalayim, is the place to be. If one has an eye for what is beautiful, you will find more than enough in Lakewood.
All wonderful, but you don’t define “Kedusha” the same way Chazal do. (Which is OK, and I am just making a disclaimer). If you think Lakewood is anything, you should have seen Bavel!
It’s like the guy standing at the Kosel with a sign: “Collecting to go to Uman for Rosh Hashana” 🙂
I would argue that outside Yerushalyim, Lakewood is second best place for too many reasons to list.
You probably mean “outside Eretz Yisroel”. Slip of the fingers.
To add:
Getting your child into a school is a nightmare.
Taxes on homes are high.
No english for high school boys (I don’t know if this is still the rule).
And the biggest reason:
And you have to live in New Jersey, the armpit of America, and the home of Jersey Shore (Note: I have never seen the show, but have heard about it in the news).
That being said, there are many good things about Lakewood. The Yeshiva alone is a good reason to move there.
If I recall correctly, the miraglim were punished for saying loshon hora on the land of Eretz Yisroel.
And the Meshech Chochma said a Holocaust will arrive because they called Berlin (or Lakewood), Jerusalem.
This seems to be the key to the whole problem. Why do the communities to whom these people belong allow them to be destitute, to the point where they need to ask other yidden for money at Chassunahs? Why isn’t their local Tomchei Shabbos (or Bikur Cholim) helping them?
It’s to prepare you for the rest of your life as boys… you know, getting a good education, including a masters degree, so you can support your family… working 8-12 hour days just to make ends meet… training your mind to be analytical so you can understand the insurance policies, mortgage documents, and retirement/bank accounts your tzaddik won’t have a clue about…
Second.
MichaelC:
The statement (Tznius is the antidote for women) is a quote from the Vilna Gaon. And that is logical, based on each gender’s individual Ta’avos (as I have posted many times before, even though the Gaon doesn’t need my Haskama).
Omer Davar B’shem Omro Mevi Geulah L’Olam.
Even I’ve heard of Wilhelm’s. I’ve never been there, but have heard good things.
I have been to the Buzz, and did buy some housewares there.
All good places. I’ll echo MoodcheDoovid.
Any gesheft run by frimme yidden.
old man: Just as you are moida that a shul must adhere to the shul’s minhag in havara, so too in the case of the OP’s Yeshiva they are correct for insisting that they adhere to the Yeshiva’s minhag in havara.
So the yeshiva is now a Sem teacher, making things up and saying they are assur so that the students should follow what they personally think should be done?
You are being Motze La’as on the Yeshiva! If it was a minhag, they would have said so, not said the students are not Yotze.
(And yes, this is common from stories I have heard from sem girls, so it is not Motzi La’az. I have just never heard this behavior happening in yeshivos, where they respect Halacha).
Perhaps he heard from his Rebbe a Sephardi Sefer Torah, and understood it to mean Trop?
It is a given that the Sephardim have more correct pronunciation than the Ashkinazim (with the AYIN & whatnot).
getzel1:
1: Will the yeshivish schools not take Chassidish children?
2: Starting a school in someone’s home is normal, because it lowers costs. If they have the money to start in a storefront, Kol HaKavod. Both options are “tackled correctly”, but the families affected have to do it. They can’t wait back and expect others to do the work.
As a final note, both mayself & my children have been in classes with 29 children (and did not see any detriment). I believe it depends on the quality of the Rebbe.
As far as slamming kollel, please tell me why a “shana rishona” needs cleaning help.
Pashut. She is commuting to Downstate (or Upstate?) every day to get her degree in OT/PT/SP/RN/NP, and her husband is a slob. Unfortunately, she really wanted to get married, and her Chossan wanted to live in Lakewood and was brought up in a dorm since 9th grade.
Alternatively, her mommy is paying for it in fear that if her princess does any cleaning work, she might break a nail (or her neck, due to her 6 inch Stiletto ZONAH (TM) shoes).
Ice Cream!
gavra we are talking hasidic schools
Why? Will the Yeshivish schools not let the Chassidish children in? If so, we should protest, just like the Schools that don’t let in Sephardim!
why are you so sure someone has some extra room, or will lend their living room for classes.? would u lend ur home?
If my child was in the class & was unable to go to school any other way, then yes. Also, why can’t you go up to 29?
with all the hocking aside
Our Gedolim have many times said and cried out in public that much of the problem of kids at risk etc lays in the fact that our classes are overfull, yes the average class in the chasidic schools in Lakewood is over 27 kids per class, so now lets do the math, lets say there are 20 kids to place,
There is Satmar (one class per grade,mesoras avos (one class per grade), Bais avroham (3 classes per grade),Toras emes (one class per grade)Rachmistrivk (one class per grade)Rav Wosners cheder (one class per grade)
A total of 6 schools,and 8 classes
if you were to place another 2 or more kids per class you will have 29 kids per a class!
i would not want to teach or have my child in a class of 29 kids
WADR, I think there are more than 6 schools in Lakewood (although I am not sure). In addition, you (and the teachers) may not have that choice (to not have 29 children in a class). YOU can always open a new school, if you don’t like it, and the Rabbaim can leave/quit.
Finally, you did not answer why you can not open a new school in someone’s home.
Look, if you want to solve this part of the problem, you need to use market forces.
Increase supply! Go out with the guy who doesn’t want to learn, but wants to be an Erliche Yid. The YU guy, the Chofetz Chaim Guy, the College guy, and the working guy.
Not that it will solve all problems, but the solution will be incremental, with little pieces falling into place. This is one piece.
As for PBA’s suggestion, you forget the purpose of girls (as per brainwahing in Sem): Support a Kollel Boy! They have no ability to unite; they are hopelessly indoctrinated, and only time can release them. (somewhat 🙂
I don’t see the problem. Either go up to 28 children per class, or have the 20 that are left out open their own (new) school. I’m sure someone has some extra room, or will lend their living room for classes.
“wouldn’t even listen to their rabbeim if told to stop. They are ungovernable and out of control.”
Would anyone consider them OTD? 🙂
100%.
sam2 and GAW- the gemara needs a limud and its a major sugya about kds of nidda not being mamzeirim.
Aware. Thank you, but irrelevant to our current question.
Sam or Toi: A source for Yichud? Mashmaos in Rambam is that Niddah is included & Dioraysah, but I would love to see an explicit source.
GAW: It’s a Machlokes between Tosafos and the Rambam whether or not Niddah is an Ervah.
Sources? (Not arguing, just want to look it up myself).
oomis1105:
Actually, an Ervah is someone who the Torah discribes with the term “Ervas ….. ” (that we lain on Yom Kippur Mincha). In the Gemorah, they are refered to collectivly as “The Arayos”, and in singular it would be “an Ervah” (IIRC).
Niddah is somewhat of a middle ground, not quite the status of a “real” Ervah (such as a sister in law, for example), but also not Muttar. I would have to do more research on the Gemorah there.
And that would have made it right – Yichud (not mamesh arayos)versus potentially committing suicide? Even the Torah does not say a boy and girl who have been intimate together are chayav misah (unless she was an arusah or an eishes ish). To the contrary, he is supposed to marry her. And that IS mamesh arayos.
For most of our history, you would have been correct. However, in this day and age, most young women are Niddos, and that in of itself is an ervah (not weighing in on Yichud, which may only be a Takana (depending on Pshat in Avoda Zara 36B)).
Is there no Rebbe or grand Rabbi who can fix this? is this depressing situation completely without a remedy?
Not if he wants to keep his job as Rebbe.
AZ:
What do you say to BTGuy? If a shaddchan believes that the best girl for a specific guy is a 20 year old, what gives you (or a shaddchan) the right to pass her over for a 22 year old?
Why does any of this matter?
Because just once, I would like to wake up at 11:00 AM. After 120, when asked why did you miss Z’manim, I will be able to give sources. 🙂
I like scenario #2, however, that is very rare.
I think the second scenario is a real rarity.
I see it happen all the time. I guess it is different where I live.
DY: WADR to BTguy, I believe his main issue is that we should not be manipulating the system at all. Assuming shaddchonim (and others proposing shidduchim) have the best interests of the couple in mind, the shaddchan proposes what he/she thinks is the best shidduch. To pay out so that the second best shidduch is proposed does sound wrong.
And if I had one point of rejection to that disgusting organization that stands out for me, as of late, it is the idea that a young lady of 23 has to have a value and price tag placed on her, for that very sole reason, (to the tune of about a thousand dollars) in comparison to someone 21 or 22. That, to me, is the definition is disgusting and no solution at all. It is a deli counter approach to the sanctity of family life. I suggest this organization is eroding the sanctity part of family life.
Hello BTGuy 🙂
And I agree with the idea that a price tag based on age is repulsive (as if it has not already happened without NASI). However, your statement of:
this organization should be ashamed for putting an actuarial outlook to human beings and family life.
IMHO is incorrect. Quantifying the problem is critical to finding the solution. Now your opinion may be that there is no problem, or that you do not like any solution even though there is a problem. I don’t know what you see, but I see too many girls who want to get married (or even date) that are just getting older (and I’m talking about 28-32, not 21 year olds). I see that as a problem.
Now I’d like to tell you about another person I know. He insisted that his son get an education. He went to Israel for a year, then went to school. He was in yeshiva in the morning, then went to school in the evenings. He got a degree. After that, his father asked him, so, are you looking for a job? He said no, I’m going to sit and learn. I have the education so that when the time comes I can work. With that safety net, I’m ready to learn for a while.
This guy went on to sit in kollel for almost 10 years, and when he needed to support his family, he went and found a job almost immediately.
I see more of this than the other method, for those that end up going to college (or go to college part time before learning in EY for a few years). If they are in Kollel without anything, they end up never going to college (in my experience), or getting a BTL and law (with support).
Hi gavra-at-work. You certainly do care what other people think. You commented about my view of that disgusting Shidduch organization with great zeal, admittedly offering no thoughts of your own. Based on your vehement “crititque” of my reaction, I would say you do care what others think. “Know thyself.”
100%! But it shouldn’t affect your Avodas Hashem!
Edit: To clarify, there is nothing wrong in caring what yenem thinks. After all we want to be “Noam Lebriyos”. However, when fear of what other people think interferes with your Avodas Hashem, that is a problem.
Make a cheshbon, discuss, & decide what Hashem wants, and go with it. Don’t decide based on what yenem will think.
P.S. My response to you on the NASI thread is that it is helpful to quantify the problem in order to propose a solution (I do not argue as far as their solution being incorrect, go back earlier in that thread), instead of not looking for the root of the problem. If that upsets you, I apologize.
predate Chasidus and do in fact have valid sources
OK, who says I can ignore Z’man Kriyas Shema & Tefillah? I know there are many Yeshiva Bochrim eagerly awaiting your response.