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TLKY:
Neither Yankees nor Southerners have it wrong.
The German “ow” versus the ashkenaz “oh”, for example, can be described as a different dialect and neither is any more correct than the other as they are essentially the same.
But when it gets to an “oy” instead of “oh”, and “yuntiff” instead of “yom tov”, and vowels being completely switched around (and perhaps even in the case of a kamatz being practically erased as a distinct vowel from patach), it is long past being considered a different dialect.
TLKY, I take your word for that, but, the fact remains that nearly everyone pronounces all the vowels almost the same and there are too many current variations for it to all be authentic.
My example from England was, I thought, an excellent illustration. I’m not aware that they have a mesorah to say a sh’va as a kamatz; it’s obviously a dialectical issue that came via their exposure to their host country.
As well the example of yumtev and yuntiff: again, liShitasam, it should be yoimtoiv. (As pronounced, “yumtev” is actually closer to a cholam than choylam.) So where did yumtev come in? Again, it must be a local corruption.
So these other variations, like choylam, also are likely attributable to the same thing.
Is this not clear? Luhavdil, look at the different pronunciations in American English? LA, Chicago, NY, FL, TX, et al. have some pretty noticeable differences. But, for Lishon HaKodesh, we’re talking about mesorah, not culture.
So why are these variations still being perpetuated?
YehudaYona:
There’s a difference between holding on to your mesorah and holding on to a shibush. My “yumtev” illustration from earlier should indicate how absurd this is.
If you listen to Jewish music recordings of ashkenaz kids in England, you will hear their pronunciation of a sh’va as a kamatz. This seems to be a local/dialectical issue, and not that they have a different mesorah than other ashkenazim.
Teimanim, despite the length of their mesorah, have still lived that mesorah in an Arab country. So it’s not unlikely that their mesorah has been, over the years, adapted to the local dialect.
I would guess that this is also how Sefardim (Persians being notable exceptions) came to pronounce both patach and kamatz as a patach. Listen to the languages and dialects of their host countries.
This is why I agree with “Curiosity” that people should not switch to Teimani, since there’s no guarantee that Moshe Rabbeinu spoke that way at Har Sinai, and I would think, in my humble opinion, that he did not speak quite that way, though they may be closest in many, if not all, ways to the original.
Other than some Chassidim and Teimanim, everyone across the spectrum of galus (i.e. German, “Ashkenaz” and Sefard) all pronounce every vowel similarly, if not the same, except for some Ashkenazim who, for some reason, pronounce the cholam as a choylam and many sefardim who pronounce both kamatz and patach as patach.
Since both the “choylam” and Chassidic havara of swapping the vowels and mileil/milra are recent inventions (like “yumtev” or “yuntiff”), why are these not “rolled back” to *their* original and why are succeeding generations being taught questionable, if not mistaken, havaros?
According to some, Malachim, DO have bechira. They just have such clarity of understanding that it wouldn’t occur to them to rebel.
Maaseh Satan is obviously referring to what Hashem has allowed the Satan to do to test Klal Yisrael. That test of Zionism has been a smashing success (or failure, depending on your perspective), unfortunately.
Of course, the Satan has no independent powers outside of what Hashem grants him, as with everything else.
To help illustrate this, the Egel HaZahav was clearly allowed by Hashem to happen, but it was obviously not what He “wanted”. Neither, obviously, did He “want” the State of Israel, as is amply clear now to any objective observer of history.
ZahavasDad, when you wrote “Now MO are Rashim”, I presume you meant “rishaim” and that you erroneously based your slander on my post. I certainly did not write the slander you wrote, and my post was quite clear to that effect.
(Also, two wrongs do not make a right, as you surely learned in Kindergarten, so I don’t understand what the relevance is of certain people’s use of archaos.)
But on the off-chance you are asking sincerely and since you seemed to have missed my explicit and clear statement of when one would be considered a rasha, I will elaborate.
One (i.e. a Jewish male, regardless of sect/affiliation) who, given an alternative, intentionally goes to a(n) street/path/area where he knows he will encounter pritzus is called a rasha. Again, this applies to any Jew, MO or otherwise. Ergo, a male who attends a Broadway show, EVEN IF HE IS SURE HE WILL NOT LOOK, is a rasha just for having gone, before he is over any further issurim.
Since in MO periodicals, it is perfectly normal to read reviews about bars and MO posts in the past here have referenced how some MO go to Broadway shows, that was the relevance of this halacha to this thread. It was, once more, not a reflection on the entire MO population.
mommamia22, I disagree. As I’ve posted before, and to borrow from the Syms slogan, an educated consumer is our best consumer. To be the best Eved Hashem one can be, one should know the best way to serve Hashem and the pitfalls of other isms and movements like Zionism and MO (among others). The point is not to randomly bash them, CH”V, but to educate us.
From what I’ve heard, teimanim pronounce it “oh” or very close to it. But it’s definitely not “oy”.
I don’t understand why this and other distortions of our mesorah are intentionally and continuously perpetrated in schools, etc.
For another example, take the words Yom Tov, and listen to how so many people pronounce it: something like “yumtiv” or, worse, “yuntiff”. (For a third option, ayein 8th Day’s “Yalili”, where it is purportedly pronounced “yumtev”) I’ve even seen people write it out “yuntiff”! This is absurd!
If “oy” were the correct pronunciation, which it cannot be, of course, the popular pronunciation would be “yoim toiv”, which I, personally, have never heard, though I have heard “yumtiv” many times.
These distortions also, in my humble opinion, shed light on the different nekudos being switched/distorted in certain sects of Judaism.
If one takes the time to listen and to think, it is very clear that there have been distortions and gross inaccuracies introduced into the havaros of many sects of Judaism, and it’s long overdue that, by now, everyone speak at least close to authentic as possible and to stop mis-educating the next generation. Why is anybody still saying “yumtiv” and “oy” instead of the correct “oh” for cholom (and “oo” for kamatz, just like many who say either “oh” or “oy”, depending on when you catch them for cholam, especially when they aren’t 100% consistent in their pronunciations across letters with the same vowels)?
I’m not advocating everyone should re-learn the entire aleph-bais and differentiate between a gimmel with and without a dagesh like Teimanim do. But at least get the vowels right, and that includes maintaining a separate kamatz and patach, unlike certain sects of Judaism from all parts of the world.
It makes no sense to me.
As a concept, MO is, at best, a (mistaken) horaas shaah (from decades ago). (The Zionism part is hopelessly misguided, but that’s not the point here.) That’s as far as the ideology.
In practice, however, there are different types of MO.
There are many frum MO who are talmidei chachamim and yireiei shamayim who do not look down upon or ignore CH”V any mitzvos. Due to their environment, education and/or other reasons, some of their standards may still be somewhat lower than they should be, but their hashkafa of 100% shemiras mitzvos, is nonetheless still intact.
There are others, however, who “pick and choose”.
This includes things like men going to broadway shows (they earn the halachic status of rasha, liChol haDeios, unless it’s an all-male show) and (married) women not covering their hair at all, going mixed swimming, et al. Not to mention other hataras issurim. If, one generation later, this group is at 50% (of whom are still either MO or else moved on to traditional orthodox), that’s not exactly shocking, as the above stories from those on campus and in schools indicate. Hashem yishmor.
Regarding MikeHall, your words are by far the worst I’ve seen on this thread. “We deserve everything we got?” because your holy sensitivities are offended? A place like YWN CR is a good place for people to understand what different ideologies represent, and how that fits in with normative Judaism’s outlook.
(This thread is definitely NOT why we are in galus. Though, in so many ways, Zionism certainly hasn’t helped and isn’t helping any, if you really are concerned about galus.)
That sefardim and Germans both pronounce it close to “oh”, and the yud is its own letter in the aleph-beis (and Ashkenaz girls are still taught “oh” instead of “oy”), it is quite clear that the correct pronunciation is “oh” rather than “oy”.
OTD, the problem is the mixed atmosphere and unnecessary “drawing close to each other” that this type of gathering brings. It’s really not a matter of anyone’s intellectual level.
Matan1, please cite which chumra or chumros is/are unnecessary, and who imposes it/them.
On the other hand, some feel that it’s better to dress so that the skirt only covers the knees when you are both bending over and tugging on it at the same time. And this is not a worse “hyper-sexualization”?
Besides, by your logic, we might as well adopt the standards of the nations and just throw the whole inyan out the window. Why shouldn’t a woman wear shorts and a sleeveless tank top (if even that) rather than out holy and dignified way of dress? Let’s not “hyper-sexualize” the arms and legs, right?
It so happens that your logic is that of the nations, while the Torah’s logic says exactly the opposite. Chazal says about this particular Yetzer HaRa that masbio ra’ev whereas mar’ivo save’a. So if a tempting circumstance of any sort were to arise, CH”V, you’re better off if you are as clean as possible, not CH”V the other way.
I’m not saying to go crazy with unnecessary chumros. But Chaza”l knew what they were talking about. Let’s not pretend to be smarter than Chazal.
I’m curious what sanhedrin paskined that an iPhone is assur to have. Many rabbanim in chutz laAretz have them, so it can’t be assur to have.
I do understand the concept of lo sasuru min hadavar asher yagidu licha, but maybe either his own daas Torah or his Rav’s permits having an iPhone. I still don’t see why he was disqualified from being an Eid Kiddushin.
And to whomever said it was political and not halachic, how is it appropriate to make political statements at someone’s wedding, when that someone probably chose the eidim beforehand and now you go ahead and decide to jettison that pick?
I’m glad to have seen this thread, only because I don’t have to disagree with many others, including ROB, on this one.
Lifi Aniyas Da’ati, and those are the key words, I can’t understand how one is passul as an Eid just because he uses an iPhone.
I tend to agree with the gist of what ROB said, which is that if a talmid chacham who sinned by day still merits “al tiharher acharav baLayla”, then even if a person did do some aveira with that phone (though there is no reason to assume he did so just because the device is capable of all sorts of things) then maybe he already did teshuva and is therefore just as kasher to be an eid as anyone else.
Perhaps someone who knows can enlighten everyone.
ROB, in other words, you still have nothing of substance to add other than invective and personal attacks against fellow Jews in chodesh Elul.
Josh, I still don’t know what point you were trying to make. I Googled what you said and posted what I found there.
The bottom line remains that:
1. Zionism was and is evil, perfidious and disastrous to Jews, without needing the Daily Express you mentioned to tell me anything.
2. Zionist defenders have not substantively defended this idolatry and their “proofs” are, either corruptions of the ideas of the holy people whose names they invoke, or else desperate clinging to mistakes that such a person was called out on by the greatest Torah minds of the generation and that is therefore wrong.
3. Most importantly, unthinking heads-in-the-sand supporters of Zionism should leave their politics out of our holy and perfect religion and not graft their idolatry of Zionism unto, lihavdil, our holy Torah,.
Josh, I certainly respect that you “feel [you are] one of them [Zionists].” But your contention that “an attack on Israel is an an attack on all Jews.” is simply not true in the context of Jewish discussion of the unimaginably massive tragedy that was and is Zionism.
The Zionist atrocities mentioned just in this thread, are more than enough to keep one busy all Tisha biAv. So this should not be covered up and have everyone believe your (i.e. Zionist) lies, and, worse, corrupt CH”V our holy religion with this idolatry.
….
Further links that came up when Googling Daily Express 1933 indicated the extent of Zionist power and their secret collaboration with the “Third Reich”.
And other related items like:
“”We are not denying and are not afraid to confess that this war is our war and that it is waged for the liberation of Jewry… Stronger than all fronts together is our front, that of Jewry. We are not only giving this war our financial support on which the entire war production is based, we are not only providing our full propaganda power which is the moral energy that keeps this war going. The guarantee of victory is predominantly based on weakening the enemy forces, on destroying them in their own country, within the resistance. And we are the Trojan horses in the enemy’s fortress. Thousands of Jews living in Europe constitute the principal factor in the destruction of our enemy. There, our front is a fact and the most valuable aid for victory.” – Chaim Weizmann, President of the World Jewish Congress, Head of the Jewish Agency and later President of Israel, in a Speech on December 3, 1942, in New York. “
So this was probably the largest hisgarus ba’umos in history. That Zionist violation of the shalosh shevuos didn’t turn out too well for the Jews, did it?
Was that what you were trying to point out? That Zionists refuse to listen to gedolim and wreak previously unknown levels of devastation?
Josh, I Googled as you indicated.
I’ll keep checking, but the first link Google brought up showed this, which is interesting in light of the recent event of the Israeli Chief Rabbis interfering in Germany regarding Bris Milah:
“”Most people are not aware that in March, 1933, long before Hitler became the undisputed leader of Germany and began restricting the rights of German Jews, the American Jewish Congress announced a massive protest at Madison Square Garden and called for an American boycott of German goods.
London Daily Express
24 March 1933
The Daily Express (London) published an article on March 24, 1933 announcing that the Jews had already launched their boycott against Germany and described a forthcoming “holy war”. The Express urged Jews everywhere to boycott German goods and demonstrate against German economic interests.
The Express said that Germany was “now confronted with an international boycott of its trade, its finances, and its industry….In London, New York, Paris and Warsaw, Jewish businessmen are united to go on an economic crusade.”
The article went on, “worldwide preparations are being made to organize protest demonstrations.”
On March 27, 1933 the planned protest at Madison Square Garden was attended by 40,000 protestors (New York Daily News headlines: “40,000 Roar Protest Here Against Hitler”).
Similar rallies and protest marches were also held in other cities. The intensity of the Jewish campaign against Germany was such that the Hitler government vowed that if the campaign did not stop there would be a one-day boycott in Germany of Jewish-owned stores.
Hitler’s March 28, 1933 speech ordering a boycott against Jewish stores and goods was in direct response to the declaration of war on Germany by the worldwide Jewish leadership.
That same spring of 1933 there began a period of private cooperation between the German government and the Zionist movement in Germany and worldwide to increase the flow of German-Jewish immigrants and capital to Palestine.
Growing anti-Semitism in Germany and by the German government in response to the boycott played into the hands of the Zionist leaders. Prior to the escalation of anti-Semitism as a result of the boycott the majority of German Jews had little sympathy for the Zionist cause of promoting the immigration of world Jewry to Palestine. Making the situation in Germany as uncomfortable for the Jews as possible, in cooperation with German National Socialism, was part of the Zionist plan to achieve their goal of populating Palestine with a Jewish majority.
“For all intents and purposes, the National Socialist government was the best thing to happen to Zionism in its history, for it “proved” to many Jews that Europeans were irredeemably anti-Jewish and that Palestine was the only answer: Zionism came to represent the overwhelming mjaority of Jews solely by trickery and cooperation with Adolf Hitler.” [1]
____________________
Sources:
[1] Barnes Review, “The Jewish Declaration of War on Nazi Germany, The Economic Boycott of 1933”
Josh, I don’t understand the allegation nor the point of said allegation.
ROB, your position that no one except the Nazis are guilty is to deny a whole host of Torah precepts, including lo saamod al dam rei’echa, arvus and others, not to mention, for example, the inhumanity of turning away a boat to be sent back to Hell, even without the above precepts.
There’s also no point in reminding you that even Rav Teichtal never advocated for Zionism and that his son explicitly states in the introduction to Eim HaBanim Simeichah, that to do so is a distortion of his father’s intent. So, no, you are not in the company you think you are, including Rav Teichtal.
But Zionists, (otherwise) religious or not, are well-practiced at distorting things to fit their idolatrous agenda that they R”L fool themselves into believing is in consonance with the Torah.
Put more succinctly, ROB, you wish to bury your head in the sand and see no (Zionist) evil.
Enjoy the sand and the Zionist Kool-aid.
ZDad, that “lesson” may give food for thought, but it’s not at all accurate in a general sense, and it certainly doesn’t take into account the incredible chesed (and welcome) that a stranger would get in a typical shul.
Health’s post from before re: Matisyohu sums it up pretty well.
And, as Popa wrote, not only are frum Americans scared of becoming citizens and regretting if they, unfortunately, are citizens by birth, even some secular leave Israel when they realize what a tragic deception they live in. What non-brainwashed person would become a citizen of a country where he has to send his 18-year old kids to be drafted into an army with all the attendant risks, spiritual and physical? It’s called idolatry, Kool-Aid and deception and corruption of Torah, as Popa also alluded to, and that is the cause.
Incidentally, when some of the secular “yordim” do get to America, a good number of them actually become frum once the Zionist indoctrination and culture wears off, B”H, and they see what it’s like to live in a country that has a deep respect (US) rather deep hatred for (Israel), religion.
ROB, whatever your position, and I think it is pretty clear that it is, in Health’s terms, drunk on Zionist Kool-Aid, you really should not bring in the Holocaust as a misayea to your tragically mistaken position. Because, for starters, a mainstream neutral Jewish paper (with a regular whole section on Israel News with a mildly pro-Israel slant, certainly not anti-Israel) recently had a lengthy multi-part series on a small number of the crimes committed by the Zionists DURING and after the Holocaust.
There’s no point telling you to Google what the likes of Yitzhak Greenbaum and others said and did. Like Nazis YM”Sh, the Zionists decided who was worthy of living and who should be left to perish in Europe because they were “old and infirm” rather than young and able to build the state. The Nazis made their selections based on similar criteria when evaluating the Jews in their evil clutches. Also not unlike Nazis (the father-land, etc.), the Zionists did so because the State is above all. And it still is.
Pirkei Avos even says this is expected behavior for government, so this is not a chiddush. What is a chiddush is how people are so blind to the evils of Zionism that they even glorify it.
I’m amazed that more Jews aren’t angry at these reshaim for what they did and continue to do. Yaldei Teiman and Yaldei Teheran should be enough to make any feeling Jew’s blood boil. Not to mention the rest: past, present and future. Our ancestors gave their lives and endured horrible fates to avoid shmad. Yet Zionists, who were and are responsible for so much intentional shmad of their OWN JEWISH BRETHREN, are PRAISED and have their idolatrous ideology grafted onto our holy, pure and perfect Torah?
And this kol isha nonsense: Popa is 100% correct. It’s insulting to anyone’s intelligence to claim that this is even necessary much less correct in halacha or otherwise to force these Jews to listen to women sing, whether it’s one or one hundred women together. I wouldn’t be quite as insulting as Popa, but it’s clearly not halachicly permissible. At best, it’s naval birshus HaTorah, but any yeshiva high school bachur can tell you exactly why this kol isha travesty is wrong, meaning assur liHalacha, no matter what RZ authorities say otherwise. They can’t argue with metzius. Especially because the whole thing kol isha choir, etc. is not necessary.
Back to ROB:
Let’s be very clear: Zionism WAS around during the Holocaust and had already hijacked the position of “Jewish Leadership” much to the detriment of our European ancestors/brothers and sisters versus had Agudah been recognized instead or at least in addition to the Zionists. And even if there had been an Israeli army, this incredible and unfathomable gezeirah would not have been ameliorated by the IDF or anything else materialistic. Israel’s continued existence is miraculous. Which means that al pi derech haTeva it should have disappeared long ago. So Zionism is nothing to count on given 1930s and 1940s Europe.
In other words, just because Hashem has sustained the Jews in Eretz Yisrael and their government, this does NOT mean he would have given a theoretical Zionist IDF any koach during the Holocaust just as He put it into the minds of the nations that bombing the tracks was not doable even though they were so close.
But the kicker is that even if the Zionists did have the capability to do something (which they actually did), since the Zionists anyways decided that they didn’t want “the old and infirm”, that they were “like dust” and “would pass”, what makes you so sure they would have bombed the tracks? These same Zionists turned away boats from the shores of Eretz HaKodesh. The same series had a picture of that, too. These Zionists held that only through blood would the nations give them their state after the war. Read up on it.
Yet “religious Zionists” are so sure the IDF would have sent a 1930s-era plane out to Europe to bomb the tracks or do some Entebbe on a far grander scale with far fewer resources and with older technology? This is more Zionist lies and propaganda that had they been around during the Holocaust then nothing would have happened to the Jews. They WERE around and look what they did and didn’t do.
So, in sum, it’s lihepech of the lies Zionists tell you. Zionists were INDEED around and in power during the Holocaust. Look at British archives from Mandatory Palestine. And the Zionists not only allowed but actually preferred that a good portion of (bnei) soneihem shel Yisrael be murdered by the Nazis (read: take out the two words before Yisrael) for the sole criteria of what they thought would be good for their state that they wanted more than life itself. Even the Zionists don’t deny these statements, as far as I’ve seen.
That’s besides the other atrocities, like Yaldei Tehran, and much, much more. But, amazingly, people are actually pro-Zionist rather than, say, simply looking the other way in shame and shock and not having any opinion. This, in spite of all the evidence, halachic, logical and otherwise, that it has been and is a major disaster. And, no having to take a bullet-proof bus to Kever Rachel is not exactly something to write home about. Nor is taking a light-rail train in Yerushalayim and having an Arab savage knife a Jewess, and then his Jewish lawyer on top of that claim that he’s a good boy. Nor any of the Zionist-induced and/or created problems like, just for example, the whole ongoing Oslo disaster and Iranian menace. Nobody needed any of that, just as the gedolim warned and the Zionists insisted on ignoring.
It seems we’re clearly in the Yemei HaMashiach because so many people are so fooled by this avoda zara of Zionism to the point of elevating it to primacy OVER the Torah rather than at least “only” on par with, CH”V despite its many, many, faults and atrocities committed against our people.
May Hashem redeem us all with the true geulah, BB”A.
My experience is that those who show respect and appreciation for America don’t particularly care one way or another about Israel other than its Jews who live there. Or they’re Zionists, too. In other words, no correlation.
On Rosh HaShana, which is coming up, we don’t cry, even though it is a day of judgement, because we are happy and confident that BE”H we will all merit a wonderful, sweet new year.
I would think the nidon diDan would be similar. While it’s a serious occasion (and a personal Yom Kippur), and only a navi knows the future, one would hope that some sort of smile would still be in order, BE”H. Look at the many brachos marriage brings: a clean slate, completing himself with his zivug, etc.
I think Englishman put it well. Some feel the same way. Unfortunately, the Zionists have managed to fool people into thinking that one can be both.
A Zionist is one who believes in and supports pre-messianic Jewish sovereignty in Eretz Yisrael.
A Zionist is also one who supports the Zionist State of Israel. Here, it gets a little more gray-area, despite the absolute and innate tarfus of the State, as a non-Zionist may still support Israel only because Israel has imposed its ruler-ship over our brethren, so we want all our brothers and sisters safe and sound, BE”H, and that means working with what’s there, which is the Zionist State of Israel.
“more”:
I wasn’t exactly clear on what point you were making. However:
By comparing smartphones to Chava, why bother with Muktzeh? After all, it’s only a siyag.
While Chava may have erred in that particular instance, Pirkei Avos does advise “VaAsu Siyag LaTorah”.
Chazal also say to be miod miod zahir in inyanim of arayos, whereas that lashon was not used by the Eitz HaDaas.
Again, I see their logic even if it’s not a universal standard.
Assuming they hold it’s assur to own one, I can see their logic.
1. A passerby may think it’s theirs. It’s like walking into a treif restaurant (to use the bathroom).
2. Theoretically, they can commit the same aveiros on your phone as they could on their own device.
Whereas by you using it, none of these “maris ayin”, etc. issues exist. They otherwise have no problem with technology. So they’re more than happy for you to look things up for them as they, too, recognize the value and utility provided by your device.
I agree it would have been appropriate, from a secular perspective.
But it might have made the siyum seem like, lihavdil, just another secular event that’s held there. So I understand the decision to not sing it at the siyum.
But Hakaras HaTov and gratitude is definitely in order, and I hope this was otherwise expressed either at that venue or before/after.
Shraga18:
First, I appreciate your kind words.
Second, while it may be true that what I wrote is “only sevaras”, trying to extrapolate halacha liMaaseh from “pashut pshat” in Navi doesn’t seem like the correct approach.
Here are some more sevaras.
1. We have the Koach HaTefillah, which is above almost all else.
2. “Pashut Pshat in Navi”, without a guaranteed context, seems difficult to apply liMaaseh, unless one has Ruach HaKodesh. Maybe the Holocaust was all that and more, and Mashiach will actually come tomorrow? Who knows?
Given those 2 points, aren’t the “sevaras” at least as persuasive liMaaseh than “pashut pshat in Navi” that is literally wide open to interpretation?
But I do agree that “It would be nice if someone here who has access to a boki beTanach could ask him about this…”
Shraga, your post doesn’t seem to square with this:
“Regardless, it’s much more prudent to be the best eved Hashem in whatever place makes that possible, than to run off to anywhere else.
Incidentally, Chazal already told us that if one wants to be saved from chevlei Mashiach that they should be oseik in Torah and Gm”Ch. It does not say to move to E”Y.”
Again, we also *know* that one’s purpose on this Earth is, essentially, to the best Eved Hashem that this individual can be.
So, mima nafshach. If, after all considerations are taken, you can be a better eved Hashem in E”Y, then no Mashiach sevaras are necessary to indicate moving there, assuming security, parnassa, etc, are all worked out. On the other hand, if moving to E”Y would ch”V cause a yerida in your Avodas Hashem, then you are presumably forbidden to move there, no matter what pashut pshat may be in Neviim or elsewhere (in part because ain safeik motzi medei vadai, and this is at least a sifeik sifeika, if not an even greater-level safeik).
As well, why would Chazal, when addressing this topic, not have simply stated that living in E”Y would save one from Chevlei Mashiach rather than saying what they did? Evidently, according to known Chazal, it is not necessary to move to E”Y to escape chevlei Mashiach.
In addition, there was a major asifa held recently in NY, and the more recent Siyum HaShas. If they felt this was the case, would not one of the gedolim and rabbanim, including some from E”Y, had even hinted that everyone should return to E”Y ASAP? That’s not as important as the Internet? I don’t recall reading there was any mention of this.
Finally, to add another point, Ain LaDayan Ela Ma SheEinav Rowos and Ain HKB”H ba BiTruniya al Biriyosav. Of all places where Jews have resided since the founding of the State of Israel, the most dangerous place on Earth, in so many ways, has been that same State of Israel. So it’s irresponsible to ignore that clear reality.
That’s all theoretically speaking, of course. For real practical guidance, asking your trusted LOR is far more prudent.
May Hashem redeem us all, BB”A.
There are plenty of scary prophecies in the neviim regarding E”Y, like how Eretz Yisrael’s inhabitants will literally head for the hills to survive and only “mechtza” will, as I recall.
On the other hand, we have a mesorah from Europe that the last stop in Galus for Torah is America.
Also, bringing raayos from the Holocaust (which was a completely bizarre and unthinkable *chain* of events, each more unlikely than the event before it) is foolish. Hashem’s cheshbon then has nothing to do with His cheshbonos now. Nobody (outside of anyone with Ruach HaKodesh) knows.
Regardless, it’s much more prudent to be the best eved Hashem in whatever place makes that possible, than to run off to anywhere else.
Incidentally, Chazal already told us that if one wants to be saved from chevlei Mashiach that they should be oseik in Torah and Gm”Ch. It does not say to move to E”Y.
As far as the C”C story, there has never been a major war on American soil waged by non-Americans, for the purpose of occupying and annexing its (entire) soil.
The worst domestic conflict was the Civil War, and no foreign invading power was involved. Others, like the Mexican War (Texas), were localized conflicts, and even in 1812 the British goal was not to reoccupy and rule the country.
Mod 42, your comparison is not valid. I know of a sefardi rav whose Shabbos afternoon drashos were well-attended by ashkenazim in the town. That might be a valid Beis-Shammai/Beis-Hillel comparison. B”H, there is plenty of achdus in Klal Yisrael.
Again, whatever group it is that did not go (“Satmar” for the sake of this discussion), could not go because Rabbi Lau clearly represents Zionism (regardless of his reason for coming), and Zionism is Treif.
Even though his Torah is not halachicly ch”V treif as a result, is it so difficult to comprehend that, due to Rabbi Lau’s presence, that “Satmar”‘s attendance would have implied an acceptance of Zionism and that is a non-starter? (That’s not “politics”, BTW; it’s, lihavdil, Torah.)
Choppy made the point well, too.
With all due respect to the Rav and his Torah, he still represents the State of Israel. This is plain and obvious.
Therefore, I can see why going to the siyum would have been problematic for those who so strongly *and correctly* understand that Zionism is not Judaism, as their attendance would have implied an acceptance of halachic legitimacy of the State of Israel, which of course is not the case.
Again, the only “sad” part about this is the tremendous damage the Zionists have inflicted on our people. Otherwise, this has nothing to do with Mashiach, and I disagree with Mod/42 that they should have gone “even though” the Rav was there. Besides, if it bothers “the Satmar”, unless they came to protest in your face, then why not live and let live? There is anyways no chiyuv to go to a Siyum HaShas.
Unlike the Internet Asifa, incidentally, nobody was told they should attend this siyum. So it would appear more appropriate to have attended the Asifa, where there was a wide-spread call for attendance, than the Siyum, if one were going to choose only one event.
It seems the Siyum was a 100% Kiddush Hashem. B”H!
May the next one be in the rebuilt B”H with the true geulah BB”A.
Speaking of the Siyum HaShas, there is certainly discussion there about Moshiach’s coming.
There are certainly those who hold that the world will continue more or less as is, except that “Vihaya Hashem LiMelech Al Kal HaAretz BaYom Hahu Yihye Hashem Echad uShmo Echad”, that even the gentiles will be 100% sure that Hashem is the Creator.
But regarding what I perceive to be the main point of your thread, I was hoping to hear some of the numerous kiddush Hashem stories that must have occurred to so many.
From the coverage I saw thus far, it seemed clear that the secular world simply cannot relate to what a simcha this was for so many dedicated people, men, women and children, each for their own unique and important role in this wonderful individual and global simcha in finishing Shas and all the hard work, sacrifice, etc. that this entails.
Naftush, the reality is what it is, and my post was not sinah and it was certainly not biChinam.
I will not repeat myself regarding the evils and tragedies of and by Zionism, but this is still the terrible truth regardless of the amazing progress Israel has made in its short existence, BE”H.
Sam2, I did not say Gedolim are “infallible”, but I did say that the Zionist canard regarding them is reprehensible and false as I explained above.
Tisha BiAv is approaching.
As usual, Zionists don’t hesitate to besmirch gedolim who so rightly predicted the disaster that Zionism would become, and they twist the Holocaust to further their painfully wrong and disastrous agenda.
To quote ROB:
“clearly, the gedolim who directly dissuaded people in Europe to flee were wrong, and the gedolim who continue to fight the medina will end up on the wrong side of history. (they already are)…”
Rabbi Shafier of TheShmuz.com has a shmuz about the Holocaust. The entire series of events was one fluke after another, and it likely would have never happened had not everything worked out as it did.
To be clear, in all likelihood, until the very last moment, the HOLOCAUST was NOT predictable. Even today, it still boggles the mind how such a massive atrocity could have occurred.
Further, if you read the history of what actually happened during WW II, you would discover many interesting things.
Just for **starters**:
1. Hitler YM”Sh originally wanted to only expel the Jews (some say until the Zionists angered him, AGAINST the wishes of the gedolim, which is when he switched to genocide).
2. It was the Zionists and their reform allies who did all in their power to sabotage the holy work of Rabbi Weissmandl and others because the Zionists insisted that emigration be to Palestine only. Et al. This is recorded history.
So when all the facts are out, it is very clear that the gedolim were quite right in advising people to stay in Europe as that was the best choice, given a normal progression of reality, at that time.
Regarding the rest of ROB’s Zionist fallacies and wishful thinking:
Zionists have brought and continue to ch”v bring massive destruction and disaster to our holy people, and the gedolim were and are absolutely right to have fought Zionism and to continue to do so. This is painfully obvious to any objective observer and doesn’t require the knowledge of history that the Holocaust does.
The world, including the Jewish people, would most likely (as in overwhelmingly so) have been far, far better off had Zionism never entered the world stage.
There’s no point in putting together the two points and reminding Zionists of those who hold that Hashem allowed the Holocaust to happen due to Zionism, etc. Nor about the various quotes from Zionists during WW II that make them sound like Nazis. Etc.
Even without all that, Zionism has been really, really, bad news for the Jewish people.
And if even a tzaddik can do an aveira CH”V, as ROB (mis)quoted, then al achas kama viKamma that the Zionists did and continue to do many, many aveiros.
May Hashem redeem us all with the true geulah BB”A.
“For those opposed to it, how can you deny that Hashem helped with its establishment? Why would Hashem help with such open miracles if He does not want Israel to exist as it does now?”
Yawn. More (regurgitated, as noted by others) Zionist wishful thinking (at best).
As pointed out above (by others), why did Hashem allow the Nazi 3rd Reich to so cruelly and inhumanly murder so many of our forebearers among the many other unimaginable atrocities they committed against our people?
Obviously, not everything Hashem allows to happen is necessarily the preferred approach, despite His permission for it to happen.
While on the topic, there are those who hold that the Zionists hijacked the tremendous eis ratzon that existed after the Holocaust and, instead of allowing Moshiach to come, they replaced it with their idolatry.
We would have had far better access to mekomos hakedoshim (and a Beis Hamikdash in its entirety and true and unending world peace, rather than only the Kosel retaining wall and some other mekomos that require an armed escort to visit).
Not much to be thankful for, in that view, especially when the gedolim told them they shouldn’t.
Regardless, what about the many Jews murdered while under Zionist rule?
Al pi Derech HaTeva, none of the Jews who died in defense of this egel would have died at that time, many of them at only the very beginning of life.
As well, the many families and individuals, victims of Arab terror, HY”D, would still be alive and well were it not for Zionist fallacies.
(The Olam Hafuch aspect is that the Zionists are actually proud of their utter disaster and successfully and misleadingly convince many others of the same.)
As the three weeks approach, this is all actually much more like Tisha BiAv material, unfortunately.
YehudahTzvi, I’m not convinced that making them cry will make them leave Jews alone, especially if they are not malicious. Again, ask your LOR.
Matan1, I didn’t say Christianity is false because it contradicts our ikkrim. There were 3 separate points.
1. Christianity cannot be derived from, and is incompatible with, our Torah.
2. The Torah expressly forbids believing in just anyone just because they perform osos, if they are leading you astray.
3. Kabbalah is not forbidden by the Torah.
It is not obvious, clear, nor objective.
A gemara, which is a snippet of recorded notes, must be taken in context and with the proper understanding, and is not intended to be read with an existing agenda in mind, but rather learned properly so as to understand what the holy sages meant in those notes.
Twisting a gemara, that could vaguely resemble something they believe in, is not impressive in the slightest because, here, too, the meaning is anyways different and clearly not that way, as I wrote in my post.
There are plenty of other gemaras, too, that, amusingly, people get all worked up over when they read the simple English translation, only to find out how foolish they are when they understand what the gemara actually means (if they care to find out).
Again, you can make a similar mistake from a cursory and non-intellectual reading of the Akeidah. But human sacrifice is obviously never condoned, unlike what one could decide to take from the akeidah.
But, again, I would leave it to talmidei chachamim.
I forget where I read this, but even the Vatican was modeh (again, I forget to whom), that the accounts in their “New Testament” were essentially for hisorerus/illustration purposes and are not factual accounts, which means even they agree that there was no Immaculate Conception nor Virgin Birth, etc.
I would assume your average Christian and even your typical minister does not know this, despite the numerous raayos that those stories could never have happened.
But that’s okay, and besides the point, because they can believe whatever they want.
But the point is that our Torah is NOT any basis for, lihavdil, their beliefs.
Regarding Kabbalah:
Whether or not it is a deviation from the mesorah and, therefore, wrong, is irrelevant. Lihavdil, Christianity is a contradiction to our ikrei emunah.
yitayningwut, no, the concept is not there in the gemara Sukkah either. There is no source for a person’s anything atoning for all mankind.
(First of all, it would be ridiculous to have the many halachos of korbanos, teshuva, kapparah, etc. if there were no need for any of that. So the gemara obviously cannot mean what you imply.)
I wish to leave this to the talmidei chachamim to address.
However, from a very quick glance at the Maharsha, whatever the gemara does mean, that gemara has nothing at all to do with the Christian belief you are implying it parallels.
The Maharsha mentions, for example, that during the entire time Rav Elazar had his yissurim CH”V, that nobody died before his time. It does not say they lived free of sin nor that they bore no other punishments CH”V. And that particular immunity ended when his yissurim did.
And nowhere does it say he meant there is no more sichar viOnesh, etc. ch”V.
(While you’re at it, you can also say that since Hashem commanded Avraham Avinu to bring Yitzchak at the Akeidah that this CH”V condones human sacrifice. Of course, the truth is the oppposite that this was a mind-blowing test that they both passed with flying colors to our tremendous merit forever.)
As I said earlier, you can twist anything to mean anything, but not if you’re objective, honest and educated. Bringing this gemara as a source for their belief is none of the above.
YehudahTzvi, while you are obviously correct and it’s even easier than that to disprove their attempts, they will usually say “well, but…” and try a different “question”.
If they CH”V succeed in planting a doubt with some other kushya they rattle off, it will not be fun to work one’s way out of that.
So it’s best to ask an LOR how to approach this, and also to know your stuff, too.
Also, as yitayningwut said earlier, I don’t know that it’s appropriate to make them leave in tears, especially if they are naive in what they are doing and sincerely believe the very mistaken notion that they are doing you a favor. I think it smacks of achzariyus, which is a particularly terrible midah.
Missionaries are people, too, of course, and I’m sure Hashem is not looking for His creations to be in tears. IF they are evil then that is a different matter, but if they’re just naive or ill-informed gentiles, I see no reason to make them feel bad, even though you have to personally reject their ideas for Jews.
Regarding your latter point:
“But I do not think that there is any point in going on the offensive and trying to “refute” their religion. And, as an aside, I do not think historically we ever have done so. “
I agree, to a point, though I believe this is also an important point to discuss with one’s LOR.
Personally, I believe that every Jew should be quite clear that our faith is very obviously the one and only Das Emes, and that no others can, neither objectively nor even subjectively, derive support from our holy Torah.
I’m not 100% comfortable with your use of “defensively”, as it implies that there is what to defend when there really is nothing to defend since their “arguments” are based on mistakes and/or worse.
Again, dealing with these matters is a sewer; ask an LOR what, if anything, to do.
On a related note, Hashem obviously placed these other faiths in the world for a reason. So, for example, if non-Jews live more moral lives as a result of their faith, then that’s great for everyone. We do not look to proselytize. In fact, we seek to NOT proselytize.
But, lihavdil, we have the forever-enduring and absolutely permanent das emes, and we should be crystal-clear that this is the case.
yitayningwut, it’s hard to figure out how Kabbalah is being compared to, lihavdil, A”Z and, even more difficult to imagine how you can intellectually question “why don’t we all convert?”.
First of all, a navi is not necessarily believed after he does some “magic tricks”. In fact, the Torah warns expressly against such belief when the navi deviates from the Torah.
As well, Kabbalah, properly learned and understood, does not negate any part of the Torah.
Second, and more important, there is no intellectually honest way you can cram Christianity into, lihavdil, our holy Torah.
There are simply no reasonable answers to the numerous and multi-pronged problems with Christian use of our Torah to support their faith. It’s simply impossible and a non-starter.
You can erroneously find support for anything if you are biased and/or pursuing an agenda, if that’s your goal. But, again, it’s a non-starter, no matter how great a gemara-kup you think you have, PROVIDED you are being intellectually honest.
As for the MO haters: plenty of Kollel people have advanced degrees from secular schools, and many also go out into the secular workforce after their years in Kollel, too. The ones who become klei kodesh also BE”H make a parnassa. And plenty of people with advanced degrees and/or years of experience are unfortunately still jobless.
Are you, perhaps, jealous that, in addition to having the above, they know how to learn Torah very well and know a good amount of Torah, and that they can also conduct their families BiDerech HaTorah?
There are sites like Jews for Judaism and people like Rabbi Tovia Singer and his site (Outreach Judaism) that have plenty of material on this topic.
Ask your LOR what approach to take before you jump into this sewer of engaging missionaries.
As I recall from various sources, off the top of my head:
For starters, the missionary likely does not know a word of Lashon HaKodesh, and therefore anything he quotes you from whatever worthless translation bible he uses is wrong at best and perhaps even fraudulent at worst.
Their own scriptures, too, have many stiros minei ubeih in metzius and elsewhere (not to mention the various conflicting editions), which means the whole thing is certainly not factual and even more so not accurate.
So, their scriptures cannot be relied on to tell anyone that, for example, their savior was born of a virgin (which, not coincidentally, was a popular pagan belief at the time). While on that particular topic, they mis-translate “alma” as virgin.
Understand that as slick and sure of himself as the guy might be, he is more ignorant than most Amei HaAretz and it makes no sense to listen to anything from an ignoramus, even if it might sound like it could make sense.
Even for the better arguments, once you dig a little, the whole thing comes crashing down like the house of cards it (at best) is.
Rabbi Singer’s approach, from what I’ve seen, is to stick to our Tanach, because they, too, liHavdil, also believe in that and, of course, there is not even the slightest support for their faith anywhere in Tanach, of course.
You can try to twist anything to say anything and even fool some people some of the time, unfortunately. But if you’re honest and objective (and educated) then it is clear as day that the Torah does not CH”V allow for Christianity for the Jewish people and, in fact, 1000% forbids it for Jews.
Since when has anyone on YWN insulted gedolim?
Respectfully pointing out what appears to be an (again, inevitable) error is not insulting to anyone.
For example, Yehuda ben Yaakov Avinu publicly admitted his error when Tamar respectfully asked whose chosam, pesil, et al. are these, when she, of course, knew that they were Yehuda’s.
Sam2, if a Gadol strongly promotes things that are kineged HaTorah, he will, unfortunately, inevitably err, to say the least. I think PBA is very justified in respectfully pointing this out, regarding the Egel HaZahav of Zionism and its IDF. Essentially, they believe “Aileh Elohecha Yisrael Asher Heelucha MiGalus Edom/Yishmael” CH”V. Unfortunately, they are so wrong in so many ways.
PBA is, of course, correct that the greatest common denominator we have as a Jewish people is our Torah/Yahadus, and not, lihavdil, the secular cultural indoctrination organ of the IDF which, with all due respect, can certainly NOT be the definitive “Am Yisrael” that the Rabbi claims it is.
Finally, biMakom Chilul Hashem Ain Cholkim Kavod LaRav. I wonder if the above quote from the Rabbi qualifies.
A) yekke2, that argument is also faulty because, in part, we didn’t yet have the Torah in Mitzrayim.
(As well, the Nazis YM”Sh also understood Yiddish, so there’s nothing all that muvdal about Yiddish, certainly not all that different than Yeshivish English today.)
Now that, for well over 3,000 years now, the Torah has bound us as one nation, there is no need to resort to speaking our own language as being a Torah Jew does far more for everyone than using a common language.
This is pashut.
For example, if you need a minyan in Paris while waiting for a flight out, no matter what language you speak, the word “Shacharis” and a gesture to your Talis/Tefillin should be enough to convey you’re looking for a minyan and any other Jew will happily join you no matter what language he speaks because we all have the same mitzvos. Again, we did not have that in Mitzrayim.
No Yiddish is needed.
B) ** The following is a quote from another site, if the mods wish to allow it:
If the Mods do not, the following point still stands. **
It’s very insulting and is a lack of derech eretz to many Jews that, in the United States whose national language is American English, one has to publicly Lifnei Am ViEidah “justify” speaking in English, “CH”V”, essentially apologizing for not addressing the gathering in Yiddish; this is a tremendous turn-off and slap in the face to those who do not speak Yiddish, and accomplishes exactly the opposite of what is intended: it alienates those Jews who do not speak Yiddish and erroneously makes some Jews feel superior to those other Jews who do not speak it.
This is not, CH”V, an accusation that all who speak yiddish feel they are superior, but it has certainly happened, and it is a terrible avlah born, most likely, of ignorance as to what being a Torah Jew is really all about.
To be perfectly clear, there is nothing wrong with speaking English, and to apologize for doing so is, again, wrong, despite the good intention in doing so.
Yiddish is useful for only 2 things: historical purposes and for effective communication with the older generation. Everyone should speak English (and/or Yeshivish English), which is an international language, in addition to the native language of the country they live in. This will truly unify all of, rather than alienate, CH”V, any part of, Klal Yisrael.
gabie, many are almost completely ignorant of this cholent, known as Yiddish, of High German, Polish and, lihavdil, Lashon HaKodesh. While those who speak Yiddish SHOULD be at least passably fluent in English, to the point that is a speaker speaks in English, or at least English with some Yiddish mixed in, everyone should be able to understand.
There is little reason this “language” of Yiddish exists, other than for historical purposes and communicating with those of previous generations who speak it better than the native language.
There already is a new Yiddish that should take over the function Yiddish served, and that is Yeshivish English. Since English is an international language and everyone learns Talmud Bavli, you now have a perfect international Jewish language.
AinOhdMilvado, you seem to be considering this in an extremely simplistic, and therefore, very wrong, manner. Of course, this is most likely due to the aforementioned Zionist Kool-Aid you say you love rather than an intellectual reason.
The terrible merida of Zionism would have only been made MORE tragic, had Hashem allowed MORE Jews ch”V R”L to have lost their lives due to Zionist aggression and those wars then being lost on top of everything.
In other words, the likely reason the Zionists did not lose those wars and the likely reason that this Avoda Zara of Zionism is still in existence, is that the Zionists have (wrongly, of course) made themselves responsible for the security of mass numbers of Jews.
So it seems plain that Hashem granted them victories for the express purpose of preserving Jewish lives. Had they lost those wars, it would have been even more disastrous than Zionism presently is. But had Zionism not started, not one Jewish live would have been lost in any of their follies. This is absolute.
Certainly, the gedolim were and are against this egel haZahav, and no miracles change that. In fact, the Torah dedicates a few pesukim to this exact phenomenon: if a Navi arises and performs **miracles** but uses those as a vehicle to say that you should worship other gods, this is Hashem testing you and you should NOT follow this navi. All the Zionist victories are no better. Again, miracles do not determine right and wrong.
The State is, unfortunately, a reality. And tactical considerations do not necessarily dictate the same response as what would be ideal were those considerations not there. But Zionism was and is a terrible disaster for our people.
May Hashem redeem us all with the true geulah, BB”A.
yichusdik, I re-read your post you referred to.
Nothing you wrote supports the Avoda Zara of Zionism which, once again, was roundly and almost universally by all gedolim condemned from the 1800s and on.
If you were so concerned about being mevazeh neviim, acharonim, etc., you’d probably open your own eyes to the truth of the terrible meridah that is Zionism rather than ignoring the gemara, Rambam, Ramban, et al.
simcha613, as derszoger already posted, Israel has certainly not fared better than, lihavdil, Shevet Efraim. Shlomo HaMalech wrote “Hishbati Eschem Binos Yerushalayim…BiAylos Hasadeh”, etc. and, unfortunately, anyone following the news in the 1990s read about unimaginably horrific calamities that Acheinu Binei Yisrael experienced in Eretz Yisrael. Obviously, none of this and more would have happened had the Zionists not ignored the gedolim…
But, besides that, Zionism is not “worthwhile” even if “only” one Jew would have been harmed. And, unfortunately, many, many, more than one were harmed, R”L. It is quite clear that Zionism has been a major disaster for our people, R”L.