HaKatan

Regarding your latter point:

“But I do not think that there is any point in going on the offensive and trying to “refute” their religion. And, as an aside, I do not think historically we ever have done so. “

I agree, to a point, though I believe this is also an important point to discuss with one’s LOR.

Personally, I believe that every Jew should be quite clear that our faith is very obviously the one and only Das Emes, and that no others can, neither objectively nor even subjectively, derive support from our holy Torah.

I’m not 100% comfortable with your use of “defensively”, as it implies that there is what to defend when there really is nothing to defend since their “arguments” are based on mistakes and/or worse.

Again, dealing with these matters is a sewer; ask an LOR what, if anything, to do.

On a related note, Hashem obviously placed these other faiths in the world for a reason. So, for example, if non-Jews live more moral lives as a result of their faith, then that’s great for everyone. We do not look to proselytize. In fact, we seek to NOT proselytize.

But, lihavdil, we have the forever-enduring and absolutely permanent das emes, and we should be crystal-clear that this is the case.

As for the MO haters: plenty of Kollel people have advanced degrees from secular schools, and many also go out into the secular workforce after their years in Kollel, too. The ones who become klei kodesh also BE”H make a parnassa. And plenty of people with advanced degrees and/or years of experience are unfortunately still jobless.

Are you, perhaps, jealous that, in addition to having the above, they know how to learn Torah very well and know a good amount of Torah, and that they can also conduct their families BiDerech HaTorah?

Since when has anyone on YWN insulted gedolim?

Respectfully pointing out what appears to be an (again, inevitable) error is not insulting to anyone.

For example, Yehuda ben Yaakov Avinu publicly admitted his error when Tamar respectfully asked whose chosam, pesil, et al. are these, when she, of course, knew that they were Yehuda’s.

A) yekke2, that argument is also faulty because, in part, we didn’t yet have the Torah in Mitzrayim.

(As well, the Nazis YM”Sh also understood Yiddish, so there’s nothing all that muvdal about Yiddish, certainly not all that different than Yeshivish English today.)

Now that, for well over 3,000 years now, the Torah has bound us as one nation, there is no need to resort to speaking our own language as being a Torah Jew does far more for everyone than using a common language.

This is pashut.

For example, if you need a minyan in Paris while waiting for a flight out, no matter what language you speak, the word “Shacharis” and a gesture to your Talis/Tefillin should be enough to convey you’re looking for a minyan and any other Jew will happily join you no matter what language he speaks because we all have the same mitzvos. Again, we did not have that in Mitzrayim.

No Yiddish is needed.

B) ** The following is a quote from another site, if the mods wish to allow it:

If the Mods do not, the following point still stands. **

It’s very insulting and is a lack of derech eretz to many Jews that, in the United States whose national language is American English, one has to publicly Lifnei Am ViEidah “justify” speaking in English, “CH”V”, essentially apologizing for not addressing the gathering in Yiddish; this is a tremendous turn-off and slap in the face to those who do not speak Yiddish, and accomplishes exactly the opposite of what is intended: it alienates those Jews who do not speak Yiddish and erroneously makes some Jews feel superior to those other Jews who do not speak it.

This is not, CH”V, an accusation that all who speak yiddish feel they are superior, but it has certainly happened, and it is a terrible avlah born, most likely, of ignorance as to what being a Torah Jew is really all about.

To be perfectly clear, there is nothing wrong with speaking English, and to apologize for doing so is, again, wrong, despite the good intention in doing so.

Yiddish is useful for only 2 things: historical purposes and for effective communication with the older generation. Everyone should speak English (and/or Yeshivish English), which is an international language, in addition to the native language of the country they live in. This will truly unify all of, rather than alienate, CH”V, any part of, Klal Yisrael.

AinOhdMilvado, you seem to be considering this in an extremely simplistic, and therefore, very wrong, manner. Of course, this is most likely due to the aforementioned Zionist Kool-Aid you say you love rather than an intellectual reason.

The terrible merida of Zionism would have only been made MORE tragic, had Hashem allowed MORE Jews ch”V R”L to have lost their lives due to Zionist aggression and those wars then being lost on top of everything.

In other words, the likely reason the Zionists did not lose those wars and the likely reason that this Avoda Zara of Zionism is still in existence, is that the Zionists have (wrongly, of course) made themselves responsible for the security of mass numbers of Jews.

So it seems plain that Hashem granted them victories for the express purpose of preserving Jewish lives. Had they lost those wars, it would have been even more disastrous than Zionism presently is. But had Zionism not started, not one Jewish live would have been lost in any of their follies. This is absolute.

Certainly, the gedolim were and are against this egel haZahav, and no miracles change that. In fact, the Torah dedicates a few pesukim to this exact phenomenon: if a Navi arises and performs **miracles** but uses those as a vehicle to say that you should worship other gods, this is Hashem testing you and you should NOT follow this navi. All the Zionist victories are no better. Again, miracles do not determine right and wrong.

The State is, unfortunately, a reality. And tactical considerations do not necessarily dictate the same response as what would be ideal were those considerations not there. But Zionism was and is a terrible disaster for our people.

May Hashem redeem us all with the true geulah, BB”A.

Shevet Ephraim also thought the time was ripe to leave Mitzrayim (and they weren’t off by very many years), and that didn’t go very well, unfortunately. The disaster of Zionism has been many, many times worse.

The gedolim said it’s treif, we all know it’s treif, and it would have been wrong to be “oleh biChoma” even more than was done.

Rather than going against our chachamim (“Al Pi HaTorah asher Yorucha”) and against pashut pshat chaza”l, had Zionism NOT started, however, it’s certainly possible Moshiach would have been here by now.

far east:

“hate it because its run by non-frum jews”

People don’t hate it, and not because it is run by non-frum Jews. There is no reason to hate anything because of the level of observance of its owners.

But the entire Zionist enterprise is a blatant affront to, and terrible rebellion against, Hashem and His holy Torah. That’s the major problem and a cause for serious consternation. The kol isha and other IDF issues and myriad other problems with the State, serious as they are, are only secondary to this.

“Hashem works in mysterious ways, but it seems clear, through the many war miracles, that the state exists for a reason.”

This is too simplistic a view. All of these miracles have had the clear effect of saving Jewish lives. That these miracles may have also benefited the State of Israel is irrelevant.

As well, the only reason anything exists is that Hashem allows it to begin and continue to do so. But man has free will. So not everything that exists is His preference. To be very clear, Hashem did NOT and still does NOT want a State of Israel. That it continues to exist means simply that Hashem ALLOWS it to exist, not that he WANTS it. Hashem allowed many things that He clearly did not WANT (like the churban of both Batei Mikdash and other things we mention on Tisha BiAv).

Speaking of Tisha BiAv, that is the REAL day for mourning the loss of the 6+ million kedoshim of the holocaust, not on some artificially invented Zionist day. By NOT doing so on 9 Av and INSTEAD doing so on this invented day, Zionists deny that the source of all the tragedies, CH”V that befell our people throughout the ages, is rooted in 9 Av and Hashem having expelled us from E”Y. This is not convenient for the Zionism, of course, since they are post-Jewish Israelis who have “returned” to the land, unlike those “galus” Jews. Of course, the Israeli is the greatest “galus Jew” with his insatiable thirst for “normalcy” and recognition from the nations of the world who really laugh at him.

Sam2, I was actually going to refrain from posting in this thread due to the OP’s seeming earnest and good intentions.

But since ZeesKite pointed out some of the errors made therein and you chose to dismiss those very valid points because you didn’t want anyone to miss out on this Zionist indoctrination day even though this would be corrupting, ch”V our holy Torah, I feel it’s important to clarify – if not for you, who chooses to believe otherwise despite the facts, then for others.

The main point is, to be blunt, that krum Torah, even if said earnestly, is still krum and it must be called out as such, if possible.

This is not “kanaus” and it’s certainly not a matter of “the major flaws the current government has”.

Let’s be very clear: even though MO mistakenly chooses to append this avodah zara of Zionism onto, lihavdil, our holy Torah, this does not at all negate the reality that the entire Zionist enterprise is treif and assur. Period. According to virtually every posek, it was, is and always will be. This is also pashut, to any objective observer. Facts on the ground may dictate a “There’s nothing you can do?” approach regarding the State, but this does not make it any less treif.

While the creation of this State might not have been madchik the geulah as some hold, it is certainly not the aschalta as MO and others erroneously hold, and it always has been, even more certainly, R”L a disaster for the Jewish people. Each day, R”L, shows yet another reason that this was a really bad idea, just as the gedolim all foretold. Amazingly, “religious Zionists” persist in their Zionism despite all this.

No, there is no joy from the bloody results of this needless and anti-Torah experiment.

Csar, I never heard that reason PBA mentioned, but I could see this as a possibility. The 6,000 is equivalent to the Sheshes Yimei Bireishis, the 6 days of creation.

There are opinions that hold that Moshiach must have arrived by Year 6,000 from Creation. So if we had a precise calendar of the years, it might prevent one from yearning for the redemption since it would be known by when the redemption must be.

I have my questions about this reason he mentioned, but I do not with to discuss them.

I believe it is definitely assur miDiOraysa, though how many issurim is a good question.

Regardless of how many issurim diOraysa AND diRabbanan, it is also extremely foolish behavior for both genders.

There are other options, like Cleveland, for out-of-town Yeshivos and seminaries, though Eretz Yisrael is, of course, not directly comparable to anywhere else, even if the overall educational gain is not necessarily better there than, lihavdil, in chutz LaAretz.

The neviim have some pretty scary things to say about what Eretz Yisrael will be like right before the geulah BB”A. Then again, there’s some scary stuff about “Melech Paras” and the rest of the world as well.

May Hashem watch over and protect all His children wherever they may be.

I’m not sure where “awarenessvaad” conjured up that statistic from, but it’s certainly false.

While there likely are marriages that could use some improvement or revitalization, it is not “most” and definitely not “all”.

In fact, most are good, if not optimum or very close to it, BE”H, and not any worse than that, CH”V.

(Keep in mind, as well, that the economy is very challenging and when couples don’t have time/can’t make the time to spend with one another, this will certainly have an impact on that marriage. A generation ago, when women were typically at home or working part-time, and men worked typical 9-5 jobs with no 24/6 Blackberries and other challenges, it was easier to maintain and therefore raise up the level of one’s marriage. Today, however, with more job pressures on both spouses, 24/6 connectivity to the office (for everyone, not just the CEO), it takes much more effort to ensure the necessary post-marriage “dates” are scheduled. Some couples today may need some guidance in implementing this.)

As far as “going their own ways”, a healthy marriage is one where both spouses still maintain their own unique identities. There is nothing wrong with each doing their own thing, provided it is not detrimental to the relationship or, even better, actually contributes to the diversity of the marriage. For example, if the woman decides she wants to learn the piano and therefore signs up to take piano lessons, this is not a reason to question her marriage and, in fact, this could actually strengthen both her own self and her marriage.

As for giving but not having ever received, I think this is far-fetched, especially in today’s sophisticated society. People typically know what they need, at least most of what they need.

A good marriage is priceless, and definitely attainable, BE”H. It takes work, but if you are both honest and fair, maintain good communication with each other, and are careful in your Bein Adam LaChaveiro with each other in addition to Bein Adam LaMakom (not any particular order), the marriage should, BE”H, be set to be truly wonderful for both the couple and Hashem.

“stuck” made the most important point so far, in my opinion.

A trusted Rav should be consulted. Pashut pshat, generally speaking, however, is that it’s better to go to a non-Jewish institution where your hashkafos will not be under attack, rather than go to a Jewish institution (or anywhere else, like a broadway show) which will negatively affect your ruchnius.

I am not saying that YU/Stern will certainly negatively affect you spiritually, as the Stern graduates that I know already came from MO backgrounds, but given the objective reports from graduates of that institution, it’s certainly worth looking into.

Regarding the “shidduch crisis”, I could name you both boys and girls who I would have thought that they’d have been married years ago because they have it *all*, and others who I thought would have a hard time and yet married excellent spouses in good time, B”H. It’s all biydei shamayim. Mixing at parties, lichaora kineged halacha, is not the solution, even if it does undoubtedly create some matches.

As for Lakewood, while there *may* be some who are fully supported and more, this definitely is not universal, and it is motzi shem ra on Lakewood to imply that every Lakewood guy is this way. I do not know the exact numbers, of course, but I do know it is far from universal.

(Finally, I find it amusing but sad that wearing pants and having boyfriends is considered more MO, and, for some, an expected outcome of going to Stern, as one poster wrote. These behaviors are simply assur and no amount of “modernity” can be mattir that nor the other issurim that are given a pass due to “modernity”.)

I do believe it’s high time that schools stopped this mistaken “oi” for “oh”; it’s inserting a “yud” into the word; how could it not change the meaning?

MiddlePath: I found blockhead’s post, which you agreed with, to be perturbing and I don’t know why you still back it despite some points like “quf”. To justify the saf as “t” because that’s how people say it, is, for kodseh purposes, prima facie absurd, not to mention in a dikduk discussion.

What he writes is anyways very puzzling: it is much more incorrect to use a “t” than using a samech for a saf. It may be more precisely pronounced as a “th” rather than a “s”, but an Ashkenzaic “s” is much closer to a “th” than a Sefardic “t” is.

While on the topic, the sefardi “oh” is somewhere between a kamatz and a cholam, but is not a true cholam. It is better than “oi”, though.

Regarding the chaf and Spanish “Guadalajara”, their “j” in that context is awfully close to our ches. So the ashkenaz “ches” is actually quite reasonable.

Again, the typical Ashkenazi havarah is off only in a matter of degrees, as noted. The sefardi havara is simply off, with saf and kamatz completely disregarded, pronounced identically to “taf” and “patach”, respectively (and even “oh” is not fully pronounced).

MiddlePath, I disagree that “they..are the ones doing it right”.

For divrei Kodesh purposes (speaking in Israel for secular purposes is a different matter):

Just because Ashkenaz doesn’t have the precision to distinguish a saf from a samech does not mean that they should revert to Academic/Modern/Zionist Hebrew (adapted from sefardi havarah specifically disregarding their Mesorah of Ashkenaz havarah) and use a tav. A Saf is still far better.

Similarly, the non-guttural ches is arguably better than a simple imitation of the letter “hay”, since Ashkenaz does not have a mesorah for the guttural ches.

On the flip side, the non-askenazic havarah does not distinguish between a patach and a kamatz. That can’t be authentic, either…(Nor do both Ashkenaz and Sefard differentiate between a tes and a tav. So if the similarity is an issue…)

Ironically, the Israeli children are taught and/or speak a real cholent of a havarah with mixed ois and ohs (worse than their American counterparts who are generally consistent one way or the other), and even take it a step further with things like dropping the “hey” altogether and pronouncing it like an aleph.

Uncorrupted Ashkenaz (ohs) and Teiman are the closest things to the genuine deal, with Teiman being closer.

I have NO IDEA if the rumors I’ve encountered are or are not true, but my understanding is that there are MANY more chumros, and **some of those are of a MUCH more life-changing nature**, than “walking a few steps ahead”.

I would advise DEFINITELY consulting a trusted family Rav, JUST IN CASE it is an issue for this particular potential couple.

May there be many beautiful simchas in Klal Yisrael.

Interesting question. You can add “Gam Zu LiTova” to your question. In other words, why even acknowledging “Gam zu LiTova” if it’s all for the good.

I wonder if the answer is that good and bad is, indeed, as we perceive it relating to our small world, but not necessarily from a long-term and certainly not from a global perspective.

For example, if someone leaves his phone at home and loses 30 minutes returning to get it, that is definitely “bad” since nobody likes to be hassled and lose time, etc.

But it could be that, as a result of this “bad” delay, something good would happen *later/ultimately*. Maybe not. Either way, we don’t usually know.

But at the time one is late/delayed, I think the most appropriate reaction is gam zu liTova, meaning it’s for the *ultimate* best (and be makir tov for that) even though it is still very annoying now.

Hakaras HaTov is always appropriate, even in this case, but it’s obviously different than if someone gives a well-received shiur, where there’s no doubt that’s a “good” thing, and one would be even more grateful to Hashem for that good.

Health, please take off the tin-foil cap. I have no agenda here other than defending Klal Yisrael from an inadvertent attack by someone who I’m sure meant well. Please see my post after yours for further clarification. And I’ve agreed with you many times that toeiva marriage should not be legalized, so you’re the one projecting (obviously false) things on to me. Please, stick to the facts.

Regarding the wording of the OP, the “in some ways” portion is irrelevant to the issues at hand. I still maintain the post was just as off and incorrect even with those words, though, as I said, I believe she meant well and those words do further clarify that she meant well.

I think I’ve made my point already, but I’ll do so again regarding the toeiva travesty: **We** are not representative of society’s moral deficiencies and society does not represent our status as the Am Segulah MiKal HaAmim. So just because certain states have passed this abominable legislation, this DOES NOT REFLECT ON US nor does it damn society as a whole either, despite these few terrible blots on the overall fabric of society.

As I mentioned earlier, even the secular news media picked up that Jews voted out a fellow Jew in favor of a non-Jew (a Catholic) because this Jewish politician had the nerve to not only vote for this toeiva but to defend it that he had to vote for it AS A JEW.

So **we** do NOT “cover up the evil”.

Besides, there are plenty of states still, B”H, that have not introduced such terrible legislation. Whereas by Noach, the Torah clearly tells us “Ki Mal’ah HaAretz Chamas…” It was universal across the land.

So as I said, there is no comparison between this generation and that of the Mabul, despite a minority of states considering/passing toeiva bills, R”L.

The copying music comparison to the GREAT AND MALICIOUS EVIL of Sedom is even more incorrect, as I mentioned above. Please see my previous post.

Health, please don’t label me anything, including a hypocrite, as I think you’re being a bit out of line (and wrong, both in the technical definition and in this particular case as well).

Yes, I was and still am very against any government legalizing this toeiva, and even the goyim know it is maaseh sedom. I have not changed that position, CH”V. But that does not make it correct to lump such governments in the same GENERAL and OVERALL category as Sedom. It is also a gross lack of Hakaras HaTov to do so.

Hashem runs the world, and He can be sovel this avla that THE UMOS HaOLAM committed, too, if He wishes. He can also put it into their hearts to realize how stupid and brainless this bill really is when children are considered, as I wrote above. That would solve that.

But we, Klal Yisrael, who dwell on this Earth **AND WHO EVEN VOTED OUT A JEWISH PROPONENT OF THIS TOEIVA (and favored instead his Catholic opponent who was against it)**, as I mentioned, can only do what we can and certainly cannot be blamed for this avla the Umos committed despite the OP’s erroneous suggestion otherwise.

The OP wrote 2 points which I thought were very off and incorrect. I didn’t “put words in your mouth”, but rather explained to you what I was defending. Again:

OP wrote: “we may be just as bad as the dor hamabul”. Again, we are absolutely not in the same league, sport, etc. as the evil barbarians of that wicked dor. We have unbelievable Torah, Avoda and Chesed, which are the three pillars that uphold this world, and it is this incredible Am HaNivchar, as it yearns for the geulah, that does so 24/7/365. We still desperately need the true geulah shileimah, may Hashem redeem us BB”A. But we are not at all what the OP wrote.

She also compared an unknown number of people who allegedly engage in “CD copying” to the wicked Sedom practice of a large group of people intentionally ganging up together and each taking less than a peruta’s worth of merchandise until the physical merchandise was all gone. Again, there is no comparison between CD copying and that evil, not in the act itself, nor the scale on which the respective acts were committed nor on the respective intents. Once again, to take the unknown number of these particular Jews and extrapolate that to comparing our entire People to Sedom is clearly very, very wrong.

Klal Yisrael has suffered so much already, R”L. If anyone feels the need to be mikatreig, cH”V, let them please ask their Rav for answers instead, rather than being mikatreig in a public forum when, at the very least, they could frame their concerns with words like “IT IS bad to do…” rather than “WE ARE bad”, CH”V.

I do not think we are anywhere close to the Dor HaMabul and Sedom, and I amazed that people can be motzi laaz on the entire uma haKedosha of Hashem like this.

Society has degenerated to the point of condoning and legalizing Mishklav Zachar, and this is a serious concern. But it does NOT reflect our values but rather that of a liberal nation that, for all its maalos and being a medina shel chessed to us and others, does not have the Torah as its life-source as we do, and is therefore prone to making grave errors (even lishitasam) such as legalizing mishkav zachar, Hashem Yiracheim.

Regarding gezel, there is a machlokes whether copying CDs/music is or is not gezel, in certain circumstances. Regardless of this machlokes, the chamas of the other doros mentioned was far worse. There, they, in groups, stole a physical object until there was no inventory left, and with that exact intent, and did so as a “naval birshus HaTorah”; meaning: since it was less than a shaveh pruta, that it was lichatchila muttar. Whereas today, someone who has a taava to copy music, AND knows it’s not proper (regardless of whether or not it’s gezeila as there are other issurim to potentially contend with) may not gain additional olam haba for doing so, but I wouldn’t dare compare that to sedom.

Klal Yisrael has much, indeed, to be proud of, B”H, as we wait the geulah sheleimah BB”A.

“Sam2”, you’re really serious that I claimed MO is wrong “only” because of intentional and flagrant violations of one of the 3 aveiros chamuros SheBiChamuros?

Come on. I’ve mentioned this many times before. Rav JBS himself wrote that the more one can distance himself from secular culture the better he is for it. “Modernizing” was, in his view, a horaas shaah that felt was necessary because he mistakenly believed that traditional orthodoxy would become a museum piece. Now, tell me that MO follows this shunning modern culture. They don’t.

For starters.

Zionism and the State have been unbelievably horrific disasters for our people. You can debate your Rambans and Rambams all you want, but, in addition to the clear multiple violations of the Torah that is Zionism, the facts on the ground are that Zionism and the State, as the holy Chafetz Chaim and many others said it would, has caused far more problems than the wicked Zionists thought they would solve.

Here’s a very quick and very much-abbreviated list. Before Zionism means before Zionism, not “Before 1948”.

Before Zionism, Teimanim had their mesorah and yahadus since bayis rishon and tens of thousands of sefardim were also still observant Jews, as would have been their descendants today and beyond.

Before Zionism, the Arabs did not virulently hate the Jews, and were generally cordial and even friendly. Even post-Zionism, some Arabs still recognize the fraud that is Zionism and correctly do not equate Zionism with, lihavdil, Judaism.

Before Zionism, Jews and Arabs lived peacefully in Eretz Yisrael (Just to head off the uninformed question, the Chevron Massacre was a direct result of *religious* Zionism – please excuse the paradox – according to Rabbi Baruch Kaplan who was there.)

Before Zionism, Jews were not seduced into becoming “post-Jewish” and culturally manipulated by (Zionist) Jews into giving up their faith in favor of Zionism.

Before Zionism, there was no need to send every young man and woman of 18 years old into the anti-Torah army that is the IDF nor was there the need for them to risk their life and limb by doing so.

May Hashem redeem us all, bringing the true Geulah, BB”A.

Off the top of my head:

Rav JBS, in his 13 addresses, said “the more one can distance one’s self from secular culture the better one is for doing so…” and that the reason for creating this new MO movement was that he (incorrectly) feared that traditional Orthodoxy would become a museum piece and couldn’t exist in the new America. B”H, this did not happen.

Therefore, it is quite clear that Rav JBS himself felt that MO was NOT lichatchila in any way.

So since Traditional Orthodoxy CAN and does, B”H, not only exist but even thrive, in this (not anymore so) new America, there is no valid reason to “modernize” Judaism when doing so is at best a bidieved according to Rav JBS, its founder.

Does that help?

The reference was to the movie, though.

I agree with the OP that these particular references should not have been used, if possible, particularly references to mushchasim and menuvalim.

Avi K: I was discussing those who are in school for a Master’s or Doctorate-level Rabbinical degree who hope to then use that to earn a living in a chosen profession, whether or not that job is in the religious world. I know plenty of people with semicha who went on to be successful business-people and career workers in the secular world.

My only point, which I still maintain, regardless of any objections posted thus far, is that if you are trying to earn a degree which you hope to earn an honest living from, I respect that whether it’s Torah or lihavdil a secular field.

I don’t believe people become a Rebbi with the goal of also receiving food stamps. If they can’t find a job that pays enough and they have to rely on programs like these to supplement their income to support their respective families, then that is unfortunate, even though it’s perfectly legal to do so, if qualified. But I do not at all believe it is lichatchila for them.

And just because a doctor will pay more taxes after he gets his degree does not give him any more of a right to rely on govt. programs than anyone else who needs them, regardless of future earning potential. The point of these programs is for the here and now, to allow one to live like a normal human being while in difficult straits, regardless of one’s chosen (future or current) profession.

I don’t know the numbers (in BMG or anywhere else), but it can’t be more than yechidim who can learn their whole lives. Someone has to pay the bills, and all the programs just can’t do that unless you pay 0 tuition and before your family grows beyond 1 or 2. So the goal must be to get a job at some point, whether that’s a Rebbi, Rabbi or something else entirely.