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seeallsides — That idea of imagining the Celestial Judge looking at you in “an album” is one of the best ideas I’ve heard on this topic (and I’ve heard a lot!!!) Thank you for sharing it!
mytake (and Shuli) — On a practical note — although this is tough, a good way to idea to avoid that “getting dressed in the morning” issue is to take a moment when you are inspired and motivated and GET RID off any clothing you have that doesn’t meet the standards you are aiming for. Sometimes the best way to deal with a nisayon is to do the best you can to remove yourself from it!
If that’s too much at this point, at least make a commitment to yourself that anything new you buy will be 100% according to Halacha — and avoid trying on anything that isn’t,so as to avoid that feeling of “but this looks so good on me. . .”
I know this doesn’t exactly address your request, but the concept is very effective in many areas of Avodas Hashem. All the inspiration in the world wears off eventually, if you don’t act on the moment in a concrete way.
Big Yasher Koach to you for being honest with yourself and doing your best to “do the right thing”!
Aries — Good point — call/ email your congressman/ senator as well if (s)he has expressed support for Israel.
That doesn’t change that if Obama gets emails and calls expressing support for Israel when he does something perceived as pro-Israel (even if he is doing it for ulterior motives), it is good for Israel. I’m sure you know from your own vast experience working with people that it is not only in Kindergarten that people need to be reinforced for their behavior, and that behaviors that are reinforced are more likely to be repeated.
I think Obama is terrible for Israel — but he is the president right now, and the best hishtadlus we can do until the next election is by making sure he is constantly hearing from people who support Israel. This is a good opportunity to “catch him doing something good” (returning to the kindergarten terminology that is very effective for adults as well).
Just to help people be Dan Lkaf Zchus a little and understand, often there are children who really are too young to be quiet the whole time, but they already go to school/ preschool/ gan and have learned all about listening to the megilla, made their graggers, etc. Parents are now put in the position of having to tell them they are too young to come! Some parents just hope things will work out, with the results discussed above!
In my old neighborhood they addressed this issue by having a “kids megilla reading”. The Bal Korai at this minyan would lein about half of the megilah, for kids. It was not to be yotzei the Mitzvah, but to give them the opportunity to come to shul, listen to part of the megillah, shake their graggers, etc., without disturbing the real kriah.
Maybe this idea can be adopted in other places!
It’s a good idea for its own sake, regardless of whether or not it helps Pollard!!! It never hurts for any elected official to hear from pro-Israel individuals, particularly the presidents. Give credit where credit is due, and the “positive reinforcement” will probably serve at least as much of a purpose as calling to complain about anti-Israel decisions.
mosherose — No one is standing in the way of helping people with their tuition and getting money to yeshivos. We are arguing against putting energy and thought into a proposal that has no chance. As far as getting funding from the government is concerned, the only possible (albeit also very unlikely) realistic route is through some sort of tax credit/ tuition vouchers, where the money is given directly to parents to spend on education as they choose.
However the “tuition crisis”, as with most social dilemmas, is a complex, multi-faceted problem that doesn’t have an easy solution. (If it were simple, it would have been solved already,no?) Thinking that the government is going to come and pay for our yeshivos is a nice dream, but doesn’t help people with their tuition.
Daas Yochid – In addition to Charliehall’s clear explanation, the time it would take for the process to unfold to the point that the pressure is intense enough for anything to happen would be a few years at the least (all the yeshiva students enrolling, the DOE scrambling to fit them in, the eventual dramatic raise in taxes to fund it, the public outcry, the proposed change in the constitution — you get the idea). Do you really want our yeshiva students spending 3 – 5 years in the public school system? Do you think the majority of parents would do it?
It may be worthwhile to do your retraining in Israel, to avoid any issues of transferring degrees and licenses. Sometimes you can even get funding from the government as a new Olah to cover some of the cost. (Younger Olim can usually get their complete degrees covered, but they recently re-instituted another program for vocational training.) I don’t know any details, but Nefesh B’Nefesh is a great resource.
double standard — any practical question of “is it assur?” should obviously be addressed to a rav/ Posek, not an online forum!
BTW — attending x-mas holiday parties at work is not such a simple situation halachicly –don’t assume that just because frum people do it there are no issues. The individual circumstances of their sha’alah may make a difference. I was told different things different years by my Posek when I had the “December party” dillema, and there were many factors he took into consideration, including whether or not a significant number of the attendees observed x-mas (i.e. was it a generic “holiday party” or a specific “x-mas party”), what the impact to my job would be if I did not attend (including subtle impact on my working relationship with co-workers), whether it took place during working hours or after hours, etc.
If there was no pressing need for you to attend (you make it sound that you just want the free food), I would be very surprised if a rav would give you a heter.
of course — It is much less uncomfortable to check with Dor Yeshorim before going out altogether than after a 4th date. Initially it is clear that this is just part of your checking, as opposed to once you start going out the “other side” can be reading all sorts of things into it (“does this mean she/he thinks it’s serious?” “maybe we’re not holding at the same point”, etc.)
As has been mentioned earlier — it is a VERY EASY thing to do!!! Why risk being put into an uncomfortable situation at the least, and possibly a heartbreaking one? Dor Yeshorim themselves in all their literature practically begs everyone to check BEFORE starting to date.
It also depends on what the information you check out is, and how far into the process you do it. I always understood the point of Chareidim checking out before was not to avoid breaking it up later but rather to avoid wasting time, emotional energy, etc. dating if is not going to work out. (In other words, if this information would break of the shidduch after a few dates, why would you not want to know it before hand and avoiding the unnecessary dating altogether?)
BTW Dor Yeshorim themselves requests VERY STRONGLY that you check out before the first date so as to avoid any uncomfortable situations later. It is literally a 5 minute phone call, so yes, even if you are on girl #376, there is no reason not to make this one call!
Actually, textbooks and library books are funding in NYS for private schools through state money. I don’t know all the details, but it is an exception to the non funding of yeshivos. (Certain technology is also funded occasionally by the state). In addition certain services (such as bussing) are funded by the city for private school students. (Education is for the most part funded jointly by state and local government) (A lot of this is due to the strong Catholic lobby in NY for many years.)
Wolf’s main point however, is the truth. I don’t think the public school system will be happy to have tens of thousands of new students — it doesn’t really mean “larger budgets” — the money has to come from somewhere! (An individual school may receive a larger proportion of funds if it has larger enrollment, but he overall city wide and state wide budgets will not grow just because more kids are enrolled, unless taxes are raised dramatically)
However it makes no difference if they want us or not — the school system is required to accept us. If it means putting 40 or 50 kids in a class, leasing the now empty yeshiva buildings, turning gyms or offices into classrooms,etc. It would wreak havoc on the system but they’d have no choice. They still could not fund a yeshiva as a yeshiva.
At most it would put pressure on the state to authorize more charter schools, but the rules covering charter schools would also prevent the type of restrictive admissions most yeshiva parents want, and preclude teaching Kodesh.
shev you suggested– “Then we should attend their schools in large numbers and take over the school making it essentially a Jewish city school. The same way the Spanish, Chinese, blacks dominate entire schools in their districts. We would then have control over how the school is run.”
The idea of large numbers of Yeshiva students attending local public schools, with “after school” limudei kodesh was raised a while back in the 5 towns. Particularly in certain areas there, where small, local school boards run the system (and frum Jews can easily vote in their own people), and the non Jews in the neighborhood are of higher socio-economic background, some people were floating this idea. You must realize however, that the public schools would still be required to be exactly that — teaching their own curriculum, accepting everyone, etc. Your “control over how the school is run” would be limited by the applicable laws. Your child would NOT be getting a yeshiva education, even in a school dominated by frum Jews. I think most yeshiva parents will continue to pay whatever is necessary to prevent going back to the era of frum kids going to public school.
And if you live in the NY city proper, you will continue to have no voice in the school even if frum kids dominate, and your child will still be attending school with the rest of the kids in your neighborhood.
Bottom line, an unfair as it feels that our taxes fund the schooling of everyone but our own kids, it is a result of our own choice, and major structural legal changes would have to happen for this to change.
They sell window guards that are easily removable by an adult or older child, but sturdy to prevent a young child from falling, for this exact reason. They are more expensive, but are probably worth the money if you have young children. (They won’t serve the purpose if you are putting up bars for security from a break in, but they are great if your concern is a child falling.)
“He looked at me, put his head down and said he was sorry but late.”
This poor Rebbe! Does he have a history of dishonesty, or am I missing something here? You asked a favor, he politely turned you down with a very reasonable explanation — why does there have to be more to this issue? Why could it not be that he was telling you the truth and was late? Particularly as you taught in the same place and know that you were also late (having just called your principal to apologize!) Nothing wrong with you asking, nothing wrong with him being unable to do you the favor.
mdd — I will take the bait and ask what exactly in Eretz Yisroel are you referring to as Chillul Hashem? Certainly according to all opinions the public desecration of Halacha by Jews is the primary example of Chillul Hashem. So yes, unfortunately there is a tremendous amount of Chillul Hashem in Eretz Yisroel today. . . but what does that have to do with this topic?
BTW — I spent my Kollel years in the US, not in Israel. And as mentioned earlier, I supported my husband with a decent paying job during those years. We did not live off anyone else (not our parents nor the government). We never received ANY government welfare (food stamps, HUD, section 8, medicare, etc.), with the exception of 1 year early on when I was still in graduate school (on weekends, working during the week), and we qualified for WIC (a supplemental food program aimed at lower middle class women who are expecting/ nursing, and young children). So I am not trying to defend myself here, simply to express my understanding of others who make this choice.
Here in Israel my husband is in Chinuch, not in Kollel, and the only government money we receive is the “kiztvat yelodim”, the “child subsidy” payments which are part of bituach leumi and have nothing to do with income.
mdd — Chillul Hashem is actually a complex Halachic discussion, and I have not gone through the sources in many years. However according to the Rambam is his Sefer Hamitzvos, the main inyun of Chillul Hashem IS in front of Jews (certainly in the classical case of Chillul Hashem, and the Halachos of when one must give up one’s life for the sake of Kiddush Hashem — it is the presence of a minyun of Jews that turn the situation into Kiddush Hashem bfarhesia — even if there are many goyim present). According to most sources, Chillul Hashem also occurs when one acts in a way that will cause Goyim to feel that you are behaving in an immoral or unbefitting way (somewhat unclear if it means immoral according to their standards or according to their perception of Torah standards), hence the common use of the term. All agree it would apply to situations such as acting in a rude or inconsiderate manner, etc. But this is not a simple issue, and certainly in a situation like this when it is questionable whether the taanos reflect a violation of any moral code, or if they actually exist (see my previous post). Each individual should consult with their Posek, but are you in fact qualified to say that all Rabbonim who hold it’s not a problem have shvere heteirim? Are you a baki in this inyun of Chillul Hashem? If so, I am not (hey, I’m a lady!),and stand corrected. If not, perhaps be careful about passing such a blanket condemnation on groups of people in Klal Yisroel.
“M in Israel, if one uses stolen money to support his limmud Torah, it is a mitzvah habah b’aveirah; just like using stolen money to buy Arbeh Minim. If one uses public funds to support his limmud Torah in those instances which you acknowledge it may be hashcafially inappropriate to do so, what else is it, if not navel birshut haTorah? Halacha may technically allow it, but it is disgusting.”
I don’t know anyone who would disagree with your first sentence, but I don’t see what that has to do with anything. Obviously if one is using stolen money it’s a problem. My understanding was that we were discussing money that was NOT stolen – i.e. if one is legitimately eligible for a program, should they avoid it so as to avoid Chillul Hashem, or because it is better not leave Kollel rather than be dependent on some form of “tzedakah”, etc. I said it “may be hashkafically inappropriate” — referring to the previous posts, not agreeing to the statement. I was saying that even one who feels there are Hashkafic problems can not legitimately say it is an “aveirah”.
mdd — I wasn’t addressing your arguments in my post, but as you seemed to feel I was, I will expand on my point. You may believe (as I in fact do believe) that government programs should be designed “(as Tsedoka) for people who fell on hard times and can not (temporarily, usually) put bread on the table.” However in the US today that is NOT the case. Most people who receive the more substantial forms of government assistance receive it for a lifetime. Many use it for numerous purposes other than putting bread on the table. If you believe otherwise you are out of touch with the reality of life in most “welfare” communities.
Judging the reality as such, if a legal program exists, with no particular “looking for work” requirements, and one qualifies 100%, I fail to see any ethical reason to avoid it, particularly if one is doing this in order to be involved in Limud Torah. Halacha does allow one to accept Tzedaka in order to learn (in fact in many situations supporting someone learning is actually one of the higher priorities in Tzedaka). I do not consider government funding an issue of tzedaka as the “givers” have no choice. I am just addressing the concept that seems to be recurring here that there is something innately wrong with “living of others” for the purpose of learning. I agree there is a problem with the nature of how such programs are set up, but fail to see how that incriminates one who participates in such a program.
In all honesty the only argument here that sounds reasonable based in Torah hashkafa as opposed to a WASP work ethic is the question of Chillul Hashem. Chillul Hashem is a HUGE aveira, as you mentioned earlier. (One for which even Yom Hamisa does not bring forgiveness.) But as with all mitzvos/ aveiros, the definition of Chillul Hashem is not what makes sense to you, or even based on some random critical comment. There are Halachic definitions and parameters, and as many poskim permit participating in such programs, I find it hard to believe that this is an “obvious” application of the Halachos.
From a logical perspective, I have listened to numerous talk shows, read articles, etc. from people who are vehemently opposed to the welfare system,and have yet to hear anyone complain about those learning in Kollel. I worked in the secular workplace for many years, and unfortunately heard many complaints about Jews, but never that they were too poor or a drain on society! It seems to me that if there is an issue of Chillul Hashem in this situation, it is in the eyes of other Jews, unfortunately. (Again, the main inyun of Kiddush Hashem/ Chillul Hashem is in front of Jews, so it doesn’t change the issue, I’m just addressing previous posts.)
I always was under the impression that the Halacha requires one to patronize a Jewish store when possible as opposed to a non-Jewish one. (Assuming the Jewish store’s prices are not extremely overpriced.) Why would the OP be trying to convince someone to not patronize a Jewish store? (the Kastner’s I remember in Miami was only a bakery — I guess things have changed in the many years since I’ve been there!)
cantoresq — I don’t understand your last post — until this point I disagreed with you but heard where you were coming from. But “mitvah habah b’aveirah??” Taking food stamps may or may not be hashkafically justified, but assuming you honestly qualify, what aveirah is there? And “naval birshut haTorah” as far as I’ve ever heard it be used is talking about behaving inappropriately without technically violating any aveiros (Rashi’s famous example in Kedoshim is one who gorges himself in an excessive feast, but all the food is kosher). It is not talking about doing a mitzvah — it is talking about something that is muttar — neutral so to speak, but not in the spirit of how a Jew should behave. I’m having a lot of trouble understanding the application here.
As far as the original question, I personally belief the whole welfare system in the US is set up in a ridiculous fashion, and that these government programs should be designed to be only a stop – gap measure for true emergency situations. I think our community as a whole would benefit more from lower taxes (and therefore more of a maaser obligation) than from continuing to subsidize these programs which after everything benefit other, far less deserving communities much more than Kollel learners. HOWEVER, as long as that is not the case, and the system continues the way it is, why must someone in Kollel be more stringent than the government? If everything is yosher (obviously I am not referring to the stories above describing abuses of the system — I think we all understand that stealing is an aveira), and one honestly qualifies, why can’t they benefit just like anyone else?
As a former union member in NYC, I once read a column in one of the union newspapers, lauding an individual who decided to boycott Walmart even though as a result he was forced to apply for food stamps as his cost of living went up when shopping in more expensive stores. He was admired for his principles — and no one had a word of criticism for his “sponging off the government.” Those who resent Jews, or frum Jews, or Jews who learn will always find fodder for their resentment, but if one is not doing anything wrong, that usually does not constitute a chillul Hashem.
Just for the record, I never received any government welfare while my husband was in Kollel, except for about 1 year while I was still finishing graduate school and was expecting and qualified for the WIC program only. Once I graduated my income was such that we never qualified for anything, B”H.
This OP is really a reminder as to one of the reasons the Halachos of LH l’toeles are so specific and detailed. Among the 7 prerequisite conditions for being allowed to speak l’toeles is that one must have FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE of what one is speaking about. Hearsay, even from a very reliable source cannot be repeated, even l’toeles. (of course for questions l’maasah, consult your LOR).
Just as a reminder, the other 6 conditions are:
1)you were dan lkaf zchust the person in your own mind
2)you made every attempt to solve the problem by going to the person directly rather than involving someone else
3)you do not exaggerate or offer your opinion, but simply repeat the information with 100 % accuracy
4)your intention in repeating the LH is only l’toeles, with no other ulterior motives
5)there is no other way to accomplish the same goal without saying the LH
6)no undeserved harm will come to the person you are speaking about
This is just an outline — it is a good practice to always ask a shailah if one feels there may be a need to repeat negative information about someone.
mikehall12382 — I’m not commenting on this back and forth regarding the state of Israel — I just want to make a point for the sake of accuracy. The US as a matter of fact provides just as much of a “stipend” for those sitting and learning as the state of Israel — just it’s available to others as well (including the dregs of society!). The “kollel stipend” in Israel amounts to a few hundred dollars a month (and is only available to those with at least 3 kids.) The amount of welfare a Kollel family with only limited outside income and 3 kids in the US would be eligible for (including food stamps, WIC, section 8, etc.) would be more than that. (And that’s not to mention Medicaid, etc. — in Israel even the unemployed must pay health insurance premiums, albeit on a sliding scale.)
AinOhdMilvado — just for the record, the state of Israel pays for your ticket if you make Aliyah (as well as a taxi ride from the airport to anywhere in the country) – not Nefesh B’Nefesh. Just keep in mind it’s a one way ticket. . .
As I haven’t researched this super recently, these details should be checked out, but the general idea is definitely accurate:
This discussion (renouncing citizenship/ IDF service/ visiting Israel, etc.) appears to be involving individuals who do not live in Israel. An Israeli citizen (by virtue of being born in Israel, having an Israeli parent, etc.) is not obligated to perform his IDF service as long as his permanent residence is abroad. He/ She is allowed to visit Israel (there is a maximum amount of time per year that I don’t remember), and can spend 10 months ONE time as a student. However, you MUST follow all the rules and get the proper documentation. That includes an Israeli passport (and with the computerized records nowadays, there is a very strong chance they will know you are Israeli even if you try to enter on a foreign passport), and getting your official deferment from the Lishkat Hagiyus (Draft office). (This can be done through the embassy in the U.S.)
Religious girls are automatically exempt from army service (not simply a “deferment” which puts it off), so if you are a frum girl/woman, it may be worth it applying for that exemption rather than simply the non- resident exemption. You would have to prove that you are really religious, and they’ve gotten stricter about that lately, but if you really are, it shouldn’t be a problem.
My husband was born in Israel and moved to the US as a baby. He visited Israel numerous times, and even learned in yeshiva there, but was careful to keep his documents current.
If at any point you move to Israel (via official Aliyah or not), the deferment is no longer valid, and one would have to report to the lishkat hagiyus to determine what army obligations one has (dependent on many factors such as age, whether one is married with kids, job, etc.), and either perform the IDF service or get the appropriate paperwork for an exemption or further deferral.
BTW, renouncing citizenship can also have an effect on your kids, particularly if they ever choose to make Aliyah — it can impact their Aliyah benefits. Make sure to look into that as well before choosing to renounce their citizenship. (Obviously if you renounce your own citizenship before they are born, then this won’t apply as the won’t be citizens to begin with.)
I never heard of this rabbi, and don’t know who backs him. In general, even in Israel this is rare. Personally, I am not at all in favor of young marriages.
However. . . there are a very few Chassidic communities in Israel where the accepted thing is for girls to get married at 15/16. Everyone in these small communities for the most part does it, and it seems that the girls really do “grow up” at an earlier age. Perhaps because in their minds they always viewed that age as an adult. I am personally familiar with one couple from such a community — when they got engaged the girl was 15 1/2, the boy was just 19. (By the time they were married she was just 16!) They have been very happily married for over 10 years with a number of kids, and the community as a whole seems to do fine.
Keep in mind, they are living almost a “shtetl” lifestyle. Generally speaking all the parents, siblings, etc. live in the same small neighborhood, helping each other as necessary. People live very simply and do not require a lot of money, and the men often end up learning part time and doing small odd jobs or teaching on the side, and that covers their expenses. Housing is dirt cheap, many people have their own gardens and even lifestock, etc. You cannot compare these communities to those in the US or even the rest of Israel, and certainly to condemn their way of life without any knowledge of it seems unfair.
Keep in mind that even in the US their are certain communities (such as some of the Sephardic communities) where girls routinely marry at 17. While I can’t imagine that for my own daughter, if it works for them, who am I to decide that it’s “too young”.
OOMIS — I’m very confused reading your posts. You talk about girls/women who are not keeping the halachos of tznius (shorts and sleeveless shirts are assur al pi halacha according to EVERY Orthodox opinion), and then say they are still tziusdik because they don’t speak L”H, do Chessed, etc. What does that have to do with it? We are not discussing if these people were frum — we are talking about a specific set of Halacha which they were not keeping properly. Just because a person is careful with some Halachos doesn’t change the fact that they may not be keeping other Halachos, and certainly doesn’t change the definition of Tznius. Yes tznius in a general sense can include avoiding loud and showy behavior, but there are specific Halachic (not Hashkafic, as you imply) parameters that ARE black and white. Can a women still be “tzniusdik inside” if she is not keeping these Halachos? Perhaps, but that doesn’t define her a an “isha tznua” any more than someone keeping part of the halachos of Kashrus can be called “keeping kosher”.
I agree that even when someone keeps all the dinim exactly, they may still not be in keeping with the spirit of tznius, but that simply means they are also not completely tzniusdik — it doesn’t mean the halachos don’t count!
It is true that there are differences of opinion with regard to certain aspects of tznius, but certain aspects are universally accepted. Some things are clear chumras: those who wear seamed stockings and double head coverings are following their poskim, who have various reasons including tznius, kabbalistic concepts, etc., but even they do not say one is violating the ikkur din of tznius by not dressing like that.
Then there are certain guidelines where poskim disagree, some saying these aspects are an integral part of tznius, and others disagreeing (such as the part of the leg between the ankle and the knee with regard to socks).
But certain things are unarguably required al pi halach — such as wearing pants, bathing suits in a public place, and a married women covering her hair. There may be slight differences about details (the famous “2 tefach” question, or the psak from Rav Soloveichik that a man does not need to divorce his wife over this issue) but one would have to say that if your mother did not cover her hair, no matter the time period, she was not keeping the halachos of tznius al pi din torah. This is not to say she was a terrible person, or any less “frum” in other areas. She may have been much more “frum” in many other ways, and may have kept many other halachos much more carefully then we do today. But Halacha is still halacha!!!!
As you mention, during a time period when it was very difficult to remain frum, it is impossible to judge their behavior. This was compounded by the fact that many people had less knowledge of Halacha as unfortunately the Jewish education system in the US left much to be desired. Those who remained at all frum are deserving of our admiration. However, things that were wrong are still wrong — do you have any evidence that even the poskim of that time “allowed” these things? It seems more likely that most Jews simply knew less about the details of Halacha — not as you say “A lot of things were done in those days that rabbonim do not accept today, i.e. using baby carriages in a place where there is no eruv” implying that the rabbonim in those days did accept it.
As has been said already — always tell your kids what to expect, and never “sneak away”. That being said, don’t overdo the explanations due to your own anxiety, as the kids will pick up on that. Just be matter of fact and excited, and they’ll be fine.
estherhamalka — Every couple is different and has different needs. I have never left my kids for a week long vacation — my husband and I usually do the “date night” thing — but I can understand those who do it – and certainly don’t see anything wrong! I find it interesting that you started the thread complaining about midwinter vacation. You are upset that you have to deal with your kids needs for one week. When it comes to winter vacation, why don’t you also feel that “These are your kids. All they have is you. They didn’t ask to be born. You chose to have them . . Hashem gave you treasures and you are willing to just let go of them for a few days for your own selfish reasons?” It is not the job of the schools to entertain or babysit your kids — they are your kids! But you are upset at the idea of having to deal with them during their vacation — don’t begrudge other people what they need!
I am also getting the feeling that the OP simply posted this topic as bait.
However, as a “kollel wife” for many years, I take great offense at the implication that most individuals learning in Kollel are doing it on “someone else’s dime” and are somehow less independent/ grown up. Disclaimer: I never lived in Lakewood. That being said, in the large Kollel community I was part of (in the NY area — not out of town), a vast majority of the families were supported by the wife working, combined with odds and ends (husband tutoring/teaching on his lunch break, jobs in camps Bain Hazmanim,etc.).
I got a degree in an area that I knew commanded a decent salary because I very much wanted to marry someone for whom “toraso hu umnoso”, and as my parents themselves are both mechanchim I knew that they would not be “supporting” me. (Disclaimer #2 My parents did pay for my schooling — although I know many wives who even did that on their own) We lived in a small apartment and did not spend excessively, but B”H we always lived a normal life. We went on occasional vacations, ate out for special events, etc. I kept an eye out for sales, and sometimes received “hand me downs” but mostly bought my kids new clothes.
Between my salary, the extras my husband was able to make, and living a fiscally responsible lifestyle, we not only supported ourselves, but saved regularly. (Our parents gave us occasional gifts such as some paraphernalia when our kids were born, etc., but did not “support us”. We also never qualified for any government programs due to my salary.) We were not unusual in my circles, and most of my friends were doing the same thing.
True, it is not the wife’s ultimate responsibility, and there are many factors to such a discussion, such as it’s implications regarding child care. But that is something decided between a husband and wife (and hopefully his rabbeim). A Kollel lifestyle is a partnership between spouses (as all aspects of marriage are!) There are many women out there who proudly and gladly commit to that partnership.
That being said, if parents want the zchus to support a child in learning, I don’t see why that is a problem. If they have the money and want to support Torah learning, why shouldn’t that support go to their own child? I know of a family where when the mother found out that her son-in-law was considering leaving Kollel as finances were getting tight, she decided to go back to work in order to help her children stay in learning. (Until that point they had been managing independently — the daughter would never have dreamed of choosing a lifestyle for herself and making her parents pay. The mother on her own valued her daughter and son-in-law’s learning, and wanted it to continue.) They ended up staying in Kollel quite a few more years — all to the zchus of this mother!
Professional, as I I said I do not have first hand experience with the actual organization — although most referral agencies don’t deal with the financial aspect — they made referrals based on a person’s professional reputation, etc. My main point was that I have found their website to be a good source of information on these topics.
I am in complete agreement that as frum Jews we must be extremely careful at all times as to what impression our actions are making. The point about upstate is unfortunately a very important example.
However, this story makes no sense to be involving a frum Jew. No frum Jew would randomly take a sandwich on an airplane without checking for double wrapping, a hechsher, etc., particularly if it was sitting somewhere and not actually handed out to him. The only explanation I can see (assuming the story is true altogether) is that the sandwich was taken by someone not frum — or even not Jewish — and because it was a flight to Tel Aviv the attendant just blamed it on “those people”. In general many goyim do not differentiate between frum and not frum Jews, and certainly most do not try to hard to be “dan lkaf zchus” on any Jews. . .
“As for the teachers and all school employees who will find this post very annoying,let me tell you that you get off a whole summer,and still get paid,and if this would be any other job in a store or office,it wouldnt just come with a week-ten days off in the end of Jan. just for nothing….
Also,didnt we just have anice break two weeks ago when our schools got cancelled for 3 days??”
Although it’s been mentioned, this whole idea of “getting paid over the summer” is meaningless. In every Yeshiva (or public school for that matter) that I know of, salaries are agreed upon as a yearly amount. A teacher makes “x” dollars for a year of work, and obviously when they make the agreement they know what a year of work includes (i.e. it doesn’t include summer, yomtif, etc.) Then the yearly salary is divided either by 10 months or 12 months depending on how that school works their payroll. A teacher getting paid in the summer is simply having their salary divided up differently — they’re not “getting paid for the summer”! That would be like saying a person who gets a paycheck every week gets paid for his work every week, but if you only get a paycheck every other week, you’re only getting paid for every other week’s work! In any job the employer and employee arrange a deal that includes all the factors — what the working hours are, how much vacation time, salary, etc. Most jobs “in a store or office” come with a certain amount of vacation/ sick time, which you take into account when you take a job. Some people may take a job that pays less with the understanding that they have more flexibility to take vacation time, and some jobs may have more flexible hours, or less vacation and more pay. If the salary isn’t enough to justify the hours required people wouldn’t take the job. (BTW This is true for tuition as well. When you were told the price for tuition you already knew the school calendar — no school in the summer, time off for winter break, etc. So no one owes you a tuition refund because of the break! Again tuition is per year, not per day or month. Some schools bill over 10 months, and some over 12, but it neither case are you “paying for the summer”!)
Teachers in yeshivos make relatively low salaries per hour of work, even factoring in all the “getting off just for nothing”, and especially if you include preparation time and paperwork. Many good teachers are in this field for the sake of our children, despite having the ability to make much more money for their efforts in other fields or in public schools. Many teachers would require a higher salary if they were working in the school during the summer, as they count on that time to take other jobs to supplement the too low salaries that our yeshivos pay!
Winter break may or may not make sense for various reasons, but to complain about teachers’ salaries and working conditions is not fair.
BTW — The yeshiva my boys went to in NY was off for 3 days each year for winter vacation (either Thurs., Fri. , Sunday or Sun., Mon., Tue.) — I think it’s only the girls schools that give off a week. We never went away, as I was working and not off, but there were always plenty of other families who stayed locally as well. Many years I simply arranged “play dates” for my boys on those days. If that’s not enough, maybe you can find some high school girls who are also off to arrange some sort of “backyard camp” or supervise your kids on local trips. If your kids are older, let them make the camp for younger kids around! Maybe you’re hanging around the wrong people or sending your kids to the wrong schools if your kids are viewed as “nebs” because they didn’t go away for a fancy vacation.
Mother in Israel — Unfortunately the fact that you didn’t notice it doesn’t mean students in your seminary didn’t struggle with eating disorders. Anorexia in particular can go for a long time unnoticed, particularly if one is not looking for it. I was in seminary over 10 years ago, and recently found out that one of the girls in seminary with me who I was pretty friendly with was anorexic — I had absolutely no clue at the time, and I was somewhat familiar with eating disorders as we had a few girls in my high school with eating disorders that I knew about.
Bruklyn Jewess — I am not familiar with the research that you quoted, but what I have seen is that the sooner eating disorders are found and treated (and yes, this is a real, serious, and dangerous psychological illness that requires professional help), the better chance at recovery. Therefore educating people to notice the warning signs and get help for their relative/ friend/ student, etc. seems to serve a very important purpose. Particularly in seminary when girls are on their own and don’t have a parent around noticing what a girl is or isn’t eating, having friends who can pick up on these signs can be very helpful.
There is an organization called “Relief” that provides information and referrals targeting the frum community for mental health issues including eating disorders. I don’t know much about the organization, but their website contains a lot of information on these issues and may be helpful to someone with a concern. The site is reliefhelp.org
Dor Yeshorim’s own literature is very clear that they and the gedolim who support them want to be called BEFORE even one date. It is a simple phone call — the same way people research anything else in a shidduch, and make phone calls to references, teachers, neighbors, etc., they can make one more phone call to Dor Yeshorim — what’s the big deal? aries2756 — What is foolish about a 3 minute phone call? What do you loose? new2thescene — Same question — how is one simple phone call considered “making yourself nuts” or “going crazy”? Do those individuals who view it as overbearing to request Dor Yeshorim numbers also view it as overbearing to do other research about a shidduch?
I have heard people say that it is a waste of resources for Dor Yeshorim to have to answer so many potentially not tachlisdik questions. I have heard from Dor Yeshorim that this is not the case. They would rather be called numerous extra times rather than any one calling once there is already an emotional attachment. The main cost for Dor Yeshorim is the initial blood work — keeping up with phone calls is negligible.
As far as the stigma, this has already been mentioned by an earlier post, but the only people who know the results are the parties involved (Dor Yeshorim requests that the individuals or their parents call — do not give the numbers to a shadchan, etc. — make the call yourself). Since a “non-compatible” response means both parties are carriers for the same genetic disease, it is highly unlikely that either side would betray the confidentiality of the other, so what is the stigma? A shadchan can just be told “no thank you, this doesn’t seem to be for us” — a lot easier than explaining after date #2 or #3 when things were doing fine why you suddenly want to break up.
Reasons to test before beginning include avoiding the difficult situation of finding out that one is not compatible after being emotionally involved, even slightly, and the awkwardness/ nervousness of having to request numbers once you are in the dating process (“is this a hint?” “maybe he/ she feels more ‘serious’ than me?” “what does that mean?”)
I agree with the OP – I certainly don’t miss alternate side parking now that I’m out of NY! Yes the street cleaners go down, but I never saw much of a difference. After 9/11 ASP was suspended for MONTHS while sanitation was busy with cleanup at Ground Zero, and I did not notice any significant difference in the cleanliness of the streets. IMHO the whole thing is just a scam to give tickets.
And saying “just move your car” is not so practical in many situations. I worked in an area with very limited parking, that was not near public transportation, so I had to drive to work. On ASP days I would have to park in an an alternate side spot, and then move my car exactly at the time that ASP began to a meter spot a few blocks away (the meter parking was a no parking zone until the time that ASP began, so I couldn’t just park there to begin with) Then I had to remember to get my car before the meter expired and return to the ASP spot which by that time was legal again. That would have been bad enough, but the meter maids started circling 5 minutes BEFORE ASP began, and would give you a ticket the SECOND the clock turned — or even a minute or two before. I even had one time that I approached my car on time, and said good morning to the meter maid standing there waiting to hopefully give me a ticket. As I was entering my care and putting on my seatbelt to move it, she scanned my registration and issued me a ticket!!! (Yes I fought it and won, but why should I have to do that?) At least the recent “grace period” rule prevents that from happening.
As far as people keeping their cars parked for weeks at a time, I’m not quite sure I understand what’s wrong with that. Presumably someone who is parking for weeks in a spot is a resident of the area, and his car would be somewhere in that area if he’s not using it — if not that exact spot that 2 spots down — what’s the difference? All ASP ensures is that he moves it to the other side of the block once a week – why does anyone care? If you’re talking about an abandoned car, ASP doesn’t help that — the car will just continue to receive tickets, but would not be moved. (Unless it eventually is towed for unpaid tickets. . .)
It is not difficult to find a doctor who will respect your desired level of medical intervention. If you don’t trust your doctor’s decision making, or think the doctor may be making decisions based on their own convenience, you are using the wrong doctor!!! But that’s not a reason to turn away from the whole field of obstetrics. The wonderful doctor who delivered my children was ethical and responsible, as well as being a top-notch doctor. She is known to work very hard to avoid c-sections unless absolutely medically necessary. I even know of a case where one of her patients was already prepped for an emergency c-section based on certain test results and she reordered the tests at the last minute just to make sure she couldn’t wait any longer. Based on the new results she decided they had a bit more time to wait, and she pushed off the surgery. The woman ended up giving birth during that time. As far as the reference to how women gave birth in the 1800’s, that seems to be simply silly. The infant and maternal mortality and complication rates in the 1800’s were astonishing — it was almost routine! Of course there are numerous reasons for that, but the bottom line is childbirth was extremely different then, as was life in general, so I don’t see what that has to do with a decision today to have a hospital vs home delivery.
Bottom line, IMHO, I feel very strongly that I would never have a home delivery for the simple reason that although home delivery may be perfectly fine most of the time, what if your delivery involves unexpected complications? As mentioned above, unexpected heavy bleeding by the mother or a baby not breathing properly can be quickly dealt with in a hospital, but not at home — why would I want to take that chance?
frumladygit — BTW, I have a very close relative who nearly died of placenta accreta, and it is very scary. However you are wrong that it cannot be detected prenatally. Nowadays it would almost always be noticed in prenatal sonograms (my relative’s situation was over 20 years ago). But there are many other things that may go wrong or cause unexpected bleeding.
Depending on what state you live in, it may actually be illegal to serve alcohol to minors, even in a private home, particularly if you are not the parent or guardian of the child. You may also be held legally responsible for any damage caused as a result of the alcohol, particularly if the child is under the age of 16. (I’m assuming you are referring to classroom rebbes, not chasidic rebbes. . .)
Personally I have an extra freezer, so I don’t have that problem, but a friend of mine gives out her extra Challahs to neighbors and relatives who don’t bake on their own. . .just an idea!!
What type of yeast are you using? Different yeasts rise differently, and are also affected by the atmosphere.
I actually find that my Challah comes out much better here than it did in the US. I do put an aluminum pan with water on the floor of the oven while my Challah bakes — the moisture helps the Challah rise more evenly, particularly as the atmosphere here has been very dry (unfortunately).
As far as making a smaller amount goes, as long as you keep the proportions that usually shouldn’t make a difference in the outcome. However, keep in mind the Mitzva of taking Challah in Eretz Yisroel is a mitzva d’oraisa (in chutz l’aretz it is d’rabanan) — maybe it is worth making the full recipe so you can take Challah here with a bracha — a big zchus!
If your recipe still is not working out, you can try mine. This is a very sweet almost “cake” challah — if you like it more bread like you can put in a bit less sugar and oil, and one less egg.
Dissolve 4 oz. fresh yeast (or 4 Tbsp. condensed yeast or 7 packets dry yeast) in a mixture of 1 cup warm water and 1 Tbsp. sugar. Set aside to bubble.
Remaining Ingredients:
2 kilo plus 2 to 3 cups flour (in the US I used 5 pounds, but this is the best equivalent that has worked)
2 cups sugar
2 Tbsp. salt
5 eggs
1 1/4 cup oil
2 3/4 cup warm water
Mix about half the flour with the sugar and salt. Add the eggs, oil, warm water, and yeast mixture and mix well. Add remaining flour and knead well. You may need to add a little extra flour — add enough so that the dough is only slightly sticky. If you are using a mixer, add enough so the dough is not sticking to the sides of the bowl while it is mixing. Let rise in a warm place for 1 1/2 hours, and then punch down and knead again. Let rise another 1/2 hour to 45 minutes, punch down and shape. (This makes 6 large or 8 smallish challahs). Preheat oven to 180 degrees Celsius (350 Fahrenheit). Allow the Challahs to rise in their pans for another 45 minutes and then coat with egg. Bake for 35 minutes. (As mentioned above I put a tray of water at the bottom of the oven.) I switch the Challahs around in the oven to the opposite shelf after 20 minutes so they bake more evenly.
Good luck!
I actually was advised by a Rosh Yeshiva in the New York area that if a frum family has a heter to have the internet in their home, they must have a filter (and yes, I triple the recommendation for K9 — it’s effective and free) AND the password should require input from both husband and wife — i.e. neither can go on without the other’s knowledge. This is not about which gender is more likely to be nichshal. It is simply being aware of the tremendous dangers of the internet and setting up precautions. Not that your spouse must hover over your shoulder, but just the fact that they are aware you are online is a psychological assistance in case of taava. “Al Tamin B’Atzmicha Ad Yom Moscha”
Actually in the past few years Oora has been trying to address the original issue raised in this thread — that people are more familiar with Oorah’s fundraising efforts that what the funds go towards. In the past few years the Chinese Auction booklets have contained much more detailed information about their programs, as well as incentives to get people to actually look through that part of the booklet (if you filled out a card listing their programs you got entered into a bonus raffle, etc.) The DVD’s they send out contain segments discussing what Oorah does and explaining their success stories. In other words, Oorah does seem to be aware of this flaw in their marketing approach, and is trying to improve it.
Actually, in both the case of Jonathan Pollard and the case of the Bochurim in Japan, there seemed to have been significant stupidity on the part of the defendants — in Pollard’s case thinking he could get a better sentence by building up media pressure, in violation of his agreement and against the desire of his lawyers, and in the Japan case by not realizing that deals too good to be true usually aren’t — but the punishment for stupidity is not life in prison.
CherryBim — “And there is a difference of an enemy spying against an enemy (it’s expected) and a “friend” spying, which is much worse.” This may be your opinion, but fortunately it is not the law. The law considers spying for an enemy significantly worse, with far more severe sentencing. (I guess most politicians and governments are not as naive as you present, and they expect spying from everyone! There have been many other spies convicted of spying for friendly nations)
Charliehall – The claim of the Bochurim in Japan was that they thought they were legally bringing in antiquities, which were hidden in the false bottoms of the suitcases in order to prevent theft or damage. Prosecutors admit that when they went through customs at the airport they did not act in a way that fit the profile of someone who is nervous or secretive, and they all passed lie detector tests to the effect that they trusted the guy who told them this was legal. There is no reason to assume they were not taught Bava Kamma. Maybe they weren’t taught common sense, but that is a different story. . .
Charliehall – I used the phrase “an ally” because that is the law under which he was convicted — there is a legal difference between passing information to a country considered “friendly” vs. “unfriendly” — I did not mean to imply there was any formal alliance between the two countries.
That being said, I stand by my statements “more than any comparable conviction”. Your examples of Walker, Ames, and Hansen can not be considered comparable by any rational examination of the convictions. First of all, they all spied for the Soviets during a period when the USSR was considered “unfriendly” — a huge,initial difference in the conviction. Walker let a spy ring for the Soviets for close to 30 years at the hight of the cold war — many consider it the most damaging Soviet spying in history! Although it is true that we do not know what information Pollard passed on, it is pretty inconceivable that it was to this extent — and it certainly was for nowhere near that amount of time. Additionally, Walker’s plea bargain agreed to life in prison for him, in exchange for leniency for his son, who was also involved (and who received 25 years). Ames and Hansen, who also both committed espionage over long periods of time both “outed” US intelligence sources to the Soviets, directly resulting in the execution of top US informants. To say that these are “comparable” crimes, is at best “highly disingenuous”, and I would say borders on “a lie.”
As for the Rosenbergs, a large number of historians today believe their punishment was unreasonable, and a miscarriage of justice, so it is hard to understand why you keep bringing them up as an example. However, this case still does not change the accuracy of my statement that ” He is the ONLY person in this history of the US with a conviction of life for spying for an ally “. The Rosenbergs were (rightly or wrongly) convicted of espionage (a highly unusual charge to be leveled against civilians, BTW), and therefore were in a different sentencing category altogether. Pollard was convicted of one count of passing classified information to an ally, without intent to harm the United States. And as I mentioned earlier, he remains to only person with a conviction under this law to receive any such sentence.
Just to be clear — I am not trying to say Pollard was innocent or in any way justified. I am simply saying that there is certainly much room to request clemency in this case, after Pollard has already received a severe punishment of 25 years,even from the perspective of straight justice.
Feif un — actually in the mid 1990’s a US Naval Commander, Lcdr. Michael Schwartz (not Jewish, despite the name!) was indicted on charges of passing classified information to Saudi Arabia. He confessed and cooperated with investigators just like Jonathan Pollard. His final punishment after the various deals (and some pressure from the Saudi government) — a dishonorable discharge from the Navy, resulting in the loss of his pension and benefits, etc. No jail time whatsoever.
Mohammad Rezo Alavi, an Iranian born naturalized US citizen who worked in the Palo Verde Nuclear Generating Station was convicted in 2008 of bringing classified software from the nuclear plant in which he worked to IRAN (!)was convicted to 15 months in prison. The judge stated that although his actions could potential cause harm to the US, there is no evidence that harm has already occurred, and therefore he could not be tried with treason.
Hassan Abu-Jihaad, a convert to Islam was convicted in 2008 of passing military secrets to an Al-Quaida connected terror group in England, and was sentenced to 10 years. (This in the middle of the US “war on terror”)
Check out the link on my previous post for numerous other such examples, including spies for enemy countries such as Cuba, the Soviet Union, North Korea, etc.
For those of you who feel “he got was he deserved” for committing a crime, here is a posting of other convicted spies and their sentences. Jonathan Pollard was convicted of 1 count of passing information to an ally. He is the ONLY person in this history of the US with a conviction of life for spying for an ally — the average conviction is 2 – 4 years!!! Even those convicted of spying for enemy countries generally receive significantly shorter sentences (about 15 — 20 years). This chart is an eye opener: http://www.jonathanpollard.org/sentences.htm
I’ll second Tzippi — daven for Yehonoson Ben Malka. In the realm of Hishtadlus, call the White House to request clemency for Jonathan Pollard as he had already served 25 years as a result of his crime — much more than any comparable conviction. The White House numbers are 202-456-1414 or 202-456-1111. In general the White House keeps track of how many calls on any given topic come in. It is a good idea to call daily, and leave a brief message every day with your request. You can also email the White House via their website – just google “contact the president”. There is a website — Jonathanpollard.org which contains information regarding Pollard’s case and ideas to help.
try this one: Let them start their pitch for a minute and then interrupt them “oh, oh, I get it! You’re trying to sell me something! Oh, Boruch Hashem, I thought you were another collection agency!” :]
Back to the main discussion here (not whether or not to name, but what to do about an unusual or potentially embarrassing name!) I have a highly unusual name — I have only come across 2 other people with this name in my life — and it never bothered me at all. I was proud to be named for my father’s grandmother, and loved the fact that it was a great conversation starter when meeting someone new — they would invariable ask me about my name! I also think this is very much in the “ears of the beholder” some people consider certain names beautiful, while others think they are weird. I would have no problem giving my child an unusual name to honor the memory of a relative (we actually planned to do so with one of my children, but the baby’s was the wrong gender!) However I think that a name that is very likely to be made fun off (i.e. it has negative connotations, or matches very poorly with your last name) is not fair to give a child, and if you just really hate the name, maybe that is part of your Ruach Hakodesh as a parent!!
As far as adding a second name goes, and whether or not that is no longer considered actually “naming for” the person, when we looked into this we found a psak that if the name added was a name of shevach or hadoah to Hashem (i.e. Boruch/ Bracha), it is not the same as randomly giving a second name, or naming after 2 different people, when in fact it is neither name that you are giving. If I remember correctly this was said in the name of R’ Moshe tz”l.
Bottom line — if this is a question L’masah, why not speak to your rav, who knows your particular community and family, to help you determine what the correct thing to do is in your particular situation.