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No I’m pivoting cuz I forgot what we were originally talking about that’s first, second……I disagree collasally. The goal is morality and through morality we have deeper connection to God. It’s not that morality isn’t the most important thing…..it’s a byproduct by nature of the importance of the action. And honestly this whole emphasis on getting closer to god and _not_ focusing on morality has lead to a level of abject corruption that people should be ashamed of themselves
I think God proved Himself enough that we have what to fall back on.so truuuuuuuuusssstttt the prooooooccccccessssss it’s that simppppplllleeee
I’m not trying to use censorship just trying to bridge a parallel. During the meraglim they saw a host of miracles. God took them out of entrenched slavery, brought them through the desert. There was so much miracles to fall back on. So when they came to the lane and complained it was more like “face palm are you guys serious?” “Like haven’t I don’t eneouph to prove everything is going to be ok?”
Let me try to give my perspective cuz I’m not trying to censure you just trying to give a framework of what you sound like.
God anointed Donald Trump to save humanity, correct, in litterally a few years the direction of the world changed so fast for the better, that was. Miracle. So many good things happened since then and the only thing you freak out about is….Iran. Calm down. Have more faith. That’s all I’m saying. I’m not trying to shut down the conversation I’m trying to say that we lack something like gratitude and faith.Litvishe fellow I’m having a bad day so I’m ganna have to address what you said because it’s callasolly false.
If your saying to do whatever your told without discernment I’d say that’s a very dangerous ground to stand on.
That’s called slogan speak not truth,
I’m not sure where I’m the tanach your pointing to this kind of thing but despite all that…..is what your doing correct or are you fallowing orders. I would say fallowing orders is not an excuse for bad action.
You need to make sure your choices are in alignment with what is right not just what your told.I love how arabs have a problem with us when we are literally cousins and they are also as inbred as we are…..the fighting makes no damn sense
Well, we don’t have to overcome human nature. As it’s human nature and doesn’t change. But we can use these stories to help guide us. And give us lessons and, guide us in the right direction
That’s the point of all the allegorical stories, it’s a framework and encompasses _all_ of human nature and also points out to where and when we are failing so we can find equalibrium again. That’s the beauty….of the book. It encompasses all of everything that applies to every single generationOk so what were you talking about lol
Your saying morality isn’t inherently important. Insanity at best. No wonder people are morally corrupted to the core to the point that they are godless and cruel. Another point is tho accountability is part of a moral framework as it’s the way we live with our choices, and the consenquences of our choices.
Let me ask you honestly, what is the purpous of God creating this entire world if we refuse to keep it’s laws.Are you guys sure that was entirely neccisary?
We have a self absorbtion problem and the second we don’t get our way it’s a proverbial tantrum. Calm down
Ashregg I hear you, I wouldn’t usually jump the gun with the meraglim story because I don’t think it always applies. But I’m trying to create a connection to how the meraglim complained to our complaints. I think it somewhat applies. I think our hangering on not getting our way and being “afraid” is losing the heart of the fact that first it’s not always about us, it never was about us and we should all calm down, this isnt the worst crisis. And it’s going to pass….that’s all.
Always ask questions that’s a very condescending attitude..let’s feel pity for them.
Ok great and why are you better? Two different people have two different _oppinions_ we are _differant_ they don’t need your foolish pity. You should pity yourself that you look down on others cuz they don’t see the world exactly like you. That’s really sadAnd the people in Israel when they were “complaining” about the land they were also having a “discussion’ it’s not about the discussion it’s about the self absorbed “attitude”
Qwerty you have got to stop calling people names already.
The thing is, we are trying too hard to control reality and the cracks are showing. Adults hang out with adults. It’s human nature….I mean your tribe can’t be only your family that’s not how life works
Guys first of all this is like the meraglim. Or somewhat heading in that direction.
As “bad” as this might be in your eyes
This is not bad at all.
There is more good then bad we need to have a lot more faith in our creator.
I think we are so used to the world revolving around us we are throwing a proverbial tantrum for not getting our way.
Even if it doesn’t look good on the outset you have to have just a smidge more faithIn qwertys defense if he really wasn’t frum I don’t think he would be fighting so hard for his beliefs
Or is it just in name only. Do you believe God sees all action and driven to hold people accountable for those said actions or is God somewhere far away that has no sovereignty over His creations. Does God not state clearly _dot not steal for _i_ an God_ clearly stating that accountability for actions is very important to His moral framework for this realm? Or does God just not exist and not hold people accountable and it’s free reign system
If morality wasn’t inheintly important why does it say to be moral and give a moral framework to life. On the same note what’s stopping you from bad action. If morality is not inherinitly important what’s stopping you from doing bad things.
You are inheintly arguing for freedom to do whatever you want which means you don’t believe in a Devine source that takes morality very seriously and holds you accountable in real time for it. This you inheintly don’t believe in a present disciplinary higher power that clearly states in the book He gave you that morality is and just action _is_ very important to Him..so much so He will see to it you get punishment for not complying to His will.
Do you even believe in God?It’s not about us…..get over it
Right…..(sarcasm)
I totally agree people literally working themselves to death just to fit into to the confines of this idolitry we call materialsim and self anihlation. It’s litterly an alter we sacrifice ourselves on….idolitry which is feening for social acceptance at the expense of our entire selves.
Ahregg exactly. I agree so doesn’t that bring home my point?
Morality has value because it is important and has meaning and it’s our responsibility to one another but how does that contradict what I’m saying. I think we are saying the same thing no?
True I’m not sure we are disagreeing
See qwerty noone hates you
“Stand up for the Torah that they rejected” except your line of thinking has no basis in fact….so…..maybe if your beliefs were consistent…..we wouldn’t “hate” you. I mean calling someone names sounds more like you “hate” them but ok. I guess your still on seventh grade level of logic
I don’t know if what I’m saying contradicts what your saying at all I just don’t understand why you think morality is not important at all.
Perhaps but perhaps this is the collective experience of thousands of people. If it really fit with what your saying I don’t think I would disagree but I think we’ve lose our way. And I don’t think I’m the only one who feels this way
Qwerty what facts? I hear oppinions and very strong ones that are more in line with “my way or the highway” but if you want to talk facts, let’s talk facts
When God seperated us from the other nations and Gave us the Torah, it was because the world had fallen deep into moral decay and corruption. If your familiar with the time frame of when the Torah was given, so even tho I see your point and I understand what your saying, being moral and good was the purpous. And falling into moral decay was what God was preventing us from becoming. “You will be a light unto the nations” a “light” a “guide” for humanity out of darkness….or like a light in the ocean always guiding people home and giving them an example to live off of.
Chaim you really think rabbanim have any say over wigs and whatever else. Cuz It absolutely doesn’t look like anyone cares lol
everyone human was embued with a conscience. It’s not about belief system I can believe whatever I want but still be bound by conscience that’s A. part of those 613 commandments _is_ to be moral so I’m not sure why you think it contradicts what I said. Why would God say “treat others as you treat yourself” if the purpous wasn’t to be moral. I can understand that morality leads to godliness but why would the law tell you to be moral of morality wasn’t the ikkur
Ashregg that might be your observation I respect but sometimes it’s an inherint mirror of the true charachtor of people and then of schools. I do agree with what your saying, _if_ the inherint behavour didn’t mirror embedded elitist ideals.
Always ask questions “biased sampling” sounds like another word for gaslighting. When in any scanario does 5 people in the same office have their car stole?. I say “impossible scanario therefore prob true”
Those are still random people who happen to actually work together.As a parent, are your rules so your child will worship you and have no self, or are the rules and structures there to make sure the child is healthy, and has a good life?
Is God an ego maniac that the only thing he needs from you is blind worship that you forget your inherint humanity. Right….your not convincing me. Sorry
morals and ethics were designed into the fabric of reality and it’s our responsibility to ourselves and our responsibility to others to keep them. Sorry
“Morals in and of themselves are not the purpous”
Really?
So what is the purpose then. Act however you want be cruel and vicious and just continue on as if nothing happened?
I’m not sure I can even argue the point cuz you can’t even admit that being a decent person _is_ the purpous or at least somewhat inherinitly important. Honestly you were pretty much getting to me with everything else you said cuz I saw you had an ounce of wisdom but now you lost me.
The commandments work in sync with our moral senses they work together they are not separated from each other.
They are _ codafied_ for us so we don’t _forget_ them and keep in our hearts the rules of reality and we don’t fall into moral decay. Which harms _ourselves_
You are on your own path and that path by nature, conforms to the path of being a decent human and living by those ideals.Let me ask you this. If none of the above was true why did God seperate us from the other nations and give us these responsibilities. Cuz the rest of the world fell into moral decay.
Not because God needed a people to “worship” him. And make him feel good about himselfAshregg sorry I lost you. “Why treat others as human and be human” you need me to spell that out? Really?
Don’t be stupid“your facts”
Parents can have a vision but is that’s Gods vision?
In the name of “this is what I want” are we losing our humanity in the process?
It seems that the price we pay for “acceptance” has become alot steeper and a lot disconnected from what is really good for us and has become a game of elitism and snobbery. And control.