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The first Ralbag:
Lavan had two daughters. Yaakov did not choose the older one, because her eyes were soft and teary which is a malady. He chose the younger one so that he would have progeny from her who would be more complete and healthier. And also because she was beautiful.
Medium Size Shadchan:
(This is something between a translation and a summary.)
The Radak:
Question: Why would Tzadikim, whose intentions of marriage are to progenate, seek beautiful women? Yaakov chose Rachel because she was beautiful, and was upset at Lavan for giving him Leah, because Leah was less beautiful. Why would he do this?
Answer 1: In order to increase their progeny, they wanted to arouse their desire, hence they would choose beautiful women.
Answer 2: They wanted their children to be beautiful and to look like them.
Answer 3: Having her form in front of him will gladden him and man is supposed to be happy in his world and with the portion that H’ gives him. H’ provides the righteous with beautiful women as he did for our forefathers and other righteous people, so that they should be happy with their lot and have kids like themselves.
??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????
Why ever so?
Why ever not?
The ??? ??? in his commentary to Yerushalmi Sotah 3:4, compiled a list of some of the women scholars throughout the generations:
??????? ??????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???”? ???”? ?”? ???? ?”? ???? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ???’ ????? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ???’ ??? ???? ???? ???? ?”? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ?’ ???? ??? ??? ??? ?????? (??????? ??? ?????) ?? ???? ????? ?? ????? ???’ ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ???”? ????”? ??”? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ????”? ???? ????? ???? ??”? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ???’ (?????? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??”? ?????? ?”?) ???? ????? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?”? ???? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?”? ????? ???”? ????”? ???? ? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ??????”? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ???????? ??????? ???????? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ???”? ?????? ???? ??”? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ???”? ????? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ?”? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ??????? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??”? ?”? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ??? ???”? ??”? ????? ???? ?”? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ???????? ???? ?”? ???????? ???????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ???”? ??”? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?”? ?????? ??? ???? ???”? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??”? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????”? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ????? ?????
Summary of the list:
1) ?????? ??? ??? ?’ ???? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ??????? ??? ?????
2) ?????? ???? ?? ????? ????”? ???? ????? ???? ??”?
3) ?? ?”? ???? ?? ???
4) ??? ???? ??????”? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ????????
5) ???? ?? ???”? ?????? ????
6) ???? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ???
7) ?????? ??????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ?”? ???
8) ??????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??”?
9) ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ?????
10) ???? ?? ????? ??? ???? ???”? ??????
11) ??? ????? ??? ???? ??????
12) ?? ????? ????? ????? ???
I didn’t say that girls should learn if their motivations are pure. However, I think that when he says ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? he is specifically referring to ???????. It doesn’t really make sense to say that there is a correlation between impure intentions and ???? ????. He is saying that there is a situation (“?? ??? ????”) in which ???? ?????. Meaning that not in this situation there is not ???? ????? (or at least not ???? ???? ?????). While there is no reason why impure motivations should cause ??????, it is very logical that ?????? should cause ??????.
Also, it does seem from “??? ??????? ????? ?? ?? ??? ??? ????” that he is assuming that it is possible for us to judge each individual girl.
So I’m not sure that we’re really arguing.
Just wait for my next post for that.
I think that is only referring to ????? ????? ???????.
How so?
Though I’m not sure how this Ralbag fits with what he wrote in Parshas Lech Lecha to explain why Sarah and Rachel gave their ????? to their husbands:
??? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ???????? ????????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ?? ??? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???
And which he reiterated in Parshas Vayeitzei:
???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ????
YW Moderator-42:
Thank you.
“[A]s a rule things are settled not by gunpowder, but by those who invented it”
Lior:
See the Radak and Ralbag about Yaakov choosing between Rachel and Leah.
Radak:
??? ????? ??? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????’ ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ????? ????? ???????? ???? ?????
Ralbag:
???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????
and Ralbag again:
?????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????
This is the problem with having multiple threads discussing the same issue. I’m putting this post in this thread because there is more debate in this thread, but I quoted more mekoros in http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/why-are-some-people-so-smart
Oh well. Anyway, at the very end of ???? ???? is a response to a woman who wanted to learn Torah. He first says:
??? ??? ???????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???
But then he gets down to business and writes:
????? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ?”? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??????? [emphasis added]
??? ??????? ????? ?? ?? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ?????’ ????? ?’ ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ?’ ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????????? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ??????? ?????? ???? ?????? ??????? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ?? ????’ ?????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?”? ????’
???? ????? ?”? ??? ???? ????? ???’ ?? ??????? ?? ?? ?????
?????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?”? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ?”? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ??????? [emphasis added]
And no, this is not a modern feminist; this was printed 462 years ago.
oyyoyyoy:
Do you think that most people on the same end of the spectrum can have a good marriage?
The girl who was absent made a bad decision. You see, had she come to school, she could have asked for a plus 2 on the test. But now that she missed school, she’s going to have to make up the test a different day, and she won’t be able to request the plus two anymore because it won’t be her birthday. But then again, perhaps on her day off she did some additional studying and increased her grade by more than two points, in which case she made a good decision. Or maybe she would just rather have a day off than do well on the test. But she’ll probably ask for the plus 2 anyway and say that before it was her Hebrew birthday and now it’s her English birthday.
R’ Dovid Cohen in Ohel Dovid volume 7 writes:
?????? ??? ?”? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ??????
???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ??”? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ??”? ??? ???? ????? ????”? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ??????
?? ?? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ?? ???”?
DaasYochid:
?????? ????? ???? ????:
“Reading only the last three letters of a label is good for jars, but pretty useless for a human being.”
More likely, because I didn’t get a kallah shas, I couldn’t figure out what she was asking. By the way, don’t think I’m ignoring your very DaasYochidish post; I responded to it but it hasn’t been approved yet.
Glad somebody caught that
Anytime.
Syag:
I wasn’t sure what you meant so I played it safe.
DaasYochid:
A CLEVERISH attempt but you got the wrong ending. Now you are forcing me to EMBELLISH my story. You see the girl in my story was actually rather SMARTISH and thus she realized that certain things are grounds to EXTINGUISH a marriage whereas other things are not so important as to cause her to RELINQUISH her husband and DEMOLISH her Bayis Ne’eman B’yisrael. She understood that such MINORISH things as what foods he eats are immaterial, and instead her focus would be to ESTABLISH a loving relationship. If she could ACCOMPLISH this then everything else would fall into place. Indeed she achieved this with a FLOURISH, and was able to VANQUISH any doubts she had had. Her husband was not BABYISH, nor BOORISH; he learned Torah in the Beis MEDRISH, performed mitzvos, and had much devotion when saying yehei shemei rabbah in KADDISH. With her loving husband at her side, all her problems seemed to VANISH. She would prepare him LAVISH meals (which might include a RADISH), but she knew that even if she didn’t, he would never PUNISH her. He would always offer to wash the DISH and POLISH it too so that it wouldn’t TARNISH and she would not BANISH him from the kitchen which gave them much time to spend conversing in ENGLISH. They would rarely have a SKIRMISH and they weren’t SQUEAMISH about making up. All in all, life was great; in fact her friends were jealous of her marriage. They would SQUISH into her house to tell her about their ANGUISH and she would ASTONISH them (though she would not ADMONISH them) with her simple responses. She would never DIMINISH her husband, and they never had to LANGUISH. And everyday he would thank her for letting him simply be… an ISH.
She realized that her story could help many young people who are FEVERISH about finding their spouse so she gave me permission to PUBLISH it here.
Syag:
“Ish” is the transliterated version of ???.
Randomex:
It’s a Rashi in Megilla 22b based on a Pirkei d’Rabbi Eliezer:
???? ???”? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ?????”? ?? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????????
Women of the Wall applied this to Feminism.
Believe:
If anything, Rosh Chodesh is a raya that women aren’t Jewish. The source for Rosh Chodesh being a women’s holiday is the Pirkei D’Rabbi Eliezer (perek 44) which says:
?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??’ ?? ??? ???’ ?????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ???’ ??? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??”? ???? ?? ???? ???”? ????”? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???”? ???”? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??’ ?????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ?????? ???????? ????? ??’ ??????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???????
Since the women refused to give their jewelry for the Golden Calf they were rewarded with Rosh Chodesh. Now let’s look at the pesukim which describe this event. Exodus Perek 32:
Verse 1 says:
???????? ?????
Verse 2 says:
???????? ??????? ???????? ?????? ?????????? ?????????
Verse 3 says:
??????????????? ???? ?????
Verse 6 says:
????????? ?????
It is clear from this that the Torah refers to the Nation of Israel several times (one of which explicitly states “The ENTIRE Nation”) in which we know that it is only referring to the men. In fact the very same Pirkei D’Rebbi Eliezer just a few lines later says:
???? ?? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ?????? ??
Perforce, women are not Jewish.
Oomis:
Thank you. I did indeed make it up. I am honored that you want to say it over, all the more so in my name.
“Why Can’t Modern Rabbis Become Women?”
and
“Rabbi I Want to Get Engaged to Wants to Change into a Girl”
should be consolidated into one thread.
Glad somebody caught that
Thank you.
Disclaimer:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/chronicle-moderations#post-549334
Here is my above self-edited post, now unedited :
If you translate ??? as Iran, ???? as His neighbor, ???? as America, and ?? ????? ???? as Part of the world, then Popa’s accusation is unwarranted.
self-edited
I just quoted parts of this Igros MOshe in two other threads so it would seem apropos to quote another part of it which is relevant to this thread.
Igros Moshe Orach Chaim 4:49:
?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????”? ??????? ??? ??? ???”? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????”? ??????? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ???”? ????”? ???? ?? ?? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???????? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ????????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??? ?? ????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ??????? ?????? ????? ???? ????”? ?”? ?????? ?”? ????? ?? ??????? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????”? ??? ????? ????”? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??”? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????? ??”? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ??”?
Igros Moshe Orach Chaim 4:49:
????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ???’ ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??’ ???’ ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ?????, ???? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ??????? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???”? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ??????? ?”? ????????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??????? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??”? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ????”? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ???
It’s in ?????? ???? (it’s actually immediately preceeding the medrash about Moshiach on the roof of the Beis Hamikdash which was being discussed in another thread):
??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ???????? ??????? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? ???????? ??????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??????? ?? ?? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ??? ???????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ??????? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ??????? ?????? ?????
There are some minor girsa hocks that don’t affect the meaning.
The Medrash is also brought in Yalkut Shimoni Isaiah Remez 499
Threaten him that if he doesn’t start taking out the trash you will tell everyone in the coffee room that he doesn’t take out the trash.
There was once a girl who didn’t know what category to marry. After all there are so many different categories: Yeshivish, Modernish, Chassidish, Litvish, Heimish, British, etc. Then she had an epiphany. “Why don’t I find something that all these categories have in common?” she said. Well she searched mizrach mizrach, ma’ariv ma’riv, l’ma’aleh l’ma’aleh, l’mateh l’mateh, tzufin tzufin, durim durim, and the only thing she could find was that they all are “ish”. So she decided to marry an ish. And they may or may not have lived happily ever after.
Terumas Hadeshen siman 218:
????: ?? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ??????? ?????? ?? ?? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ???
?????: ???? ????”? ??? ???”? ???? ?????? ?’ ????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ?”? ??????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ??????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????”? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ??? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ??????? ??? ??????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ??”? ????????? ??? ???? ???????? ???”? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ??”? ????? ??”? ?????
And the Yam Shel Shlomo on the Gemara which the Terumas Hadeshen quotes, adds:
??? ???? ?? ???? ????
Although he qualifies this:
??”? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????
And then he further qualifies it:
????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ?????? ??”? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?”? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???????? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????
But his second qualification comes after he discusses hitting other people, so perhaps it was not meant in regards to a wife.
Regardless though, this is only talking about lehafrish m’issura.
Once this thread is back, part of Popa’s original argument was
They don’t even have a bris, which is the sign of our covenant with Hashem!
However, as I recently pointed out in the Jokes thread
In honor of all the seminary threads:
Q. What’s the difference between B’nos Sarah and B’nos Chavah?
A. B’nos Chavah accepts non-Jews too. (According to Popa, they both accept non-Jews but ??????? ????? the Gemara in Avodah Zara 27a.)
The Gemara there says:
???? ???? ?????? ????
And as the Seridei Eish writes (2:67):
????? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???
Although he then immediately writes:
??? ????? ?? ??”? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??”? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??”? ??”? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ???”? ??”? ?? ?”? ???? ?? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???”? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?????
Which might support Popa.
Out of curiosity:
Was my post not approved because of content, or because of length?
combination
??? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ???