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A woman’s self esteem is largely dependent on how she perceives her looks. A woman is allowed to dress pretty. To dress attractively is different than to dress “attractingly” (if there is such a word).
Thank you interjection. I agree with this.
I hope they all end up in federal prison.
If they post on internet forums.
Yes, because they outdo born Jews in the performance of mitzvot.
Oh you’re outdoing us all right. Remind us again of the mitzva to be mevazeh the chasam sofer, and the rema, etc.
I don’t buy into the idea that boys not having experience talking to girls, or knowing how to build a relationship, is part of the problem. Girls certainly don’t need experience to figure out how to get male attention – it’s pretty instinctive.
It is instinctive, but we’ve trained ourselves to not do it. And it is an issue.
One prominent (female) family therapist told me that it is a very common issue that yeshivish girls don’t know to interact with guys in a romantic way. And the same with guys. Or perhaps more accurately, that they think it is inappropriate to, and they hold themselves back and a bit aloof.
Is that a problem? Depends what you think. If you think it is important to have romantic feelings about one another before you get engaged, then it is. If you don’t think so, then it is not a problem.
1. Modern Orthodox often don’t cover their hair . Do you hold the Modern Orthodox to be frum?
They are frum. And are also violating halacha.
1) Frankly, it’s not your business to go around deciding whose gerus is valid or not.
Of course it is. I need to know whether I can marry into their family.
2) The Shulchan Aruch does not actually require a ger to become completely observant before converting. The practice of requiring that is very recent. It makes sense, given current circumstances. But we should keep the basic halacha in mind.
He does require that they intend to become completely observant. Which is no longer the norm. And some rabbis don’t care about this, hence they are not orthodox rabbis.
Synagogue architecture was polemicized in the wake of Reform by those who claimed hadash assur min hatorah, to which I’d reply, ein chiddush gadol mi zeh.
Do you care to mention who you are talking about? The chasam sofer?
I think we’ve had quite enough of your heresy. Isn’t there some rule about that?
Why should a mechitza define an orthodox shul any more than a bima?
I think this was the only sentence that may have made sense. And it makes no sense.
A bima does also define an Orthodox shul. If a shul has a bima in the front of the congregation, it is not an Orthodox shul.
I also personally heard from a close talmid of Rav H. Leibowitz ZTZ”L that one time a certain Rav said girls should be “understanding” when dating yeshivah guys because they have no experience talking to girls due to spending the large chunk of their lives in front of a gemara in yeshiva. R’ Leibowitz was adamently against this statement and said a guy who claims this excuse about himself is lacking in his mussar and middos. If you learned mussar properly in yeshiva you should have no trouble talking to a girl like a mentch.
????? to the rosh yeshiva, this sounds like a game of telephone to me. The rav said, someone told the talmid, the talmid asked the rosh yeshiva…
The problem referred to presumably was that yeshiva guys don’t know how to talk to girls in ways which build a romantic relationship, and has nothing to do with being nice or polite or a mensch.
I’m guessing this was told over to Rav Leibowitz as being a problem of girls having to understand that guys will not be nice to them. And he responded the way he did. But the rav was certainly talking about what I am referring to.
This whole discussion of ‘Orthodox’ and ‘Non-Orthodox’ shuls reeks of the ‘no true Scotsman’ fallacy from both sides…
Hmmm.
You defy logic. Any normative assessment will violate your “no true scotsman” rule. If I say that if a shul has a cross in it, it is not orthodox, you will also say that is a self fulfilling argument.
And of course it is self fulfilling; that is what I am trying to do. I am trying to make a normative statement and define orthodoxy. And my definition will decide what is orthodox, not the other way around.
If “true scotsmen” were defined by a set of behaviors and beliefs, we could do the same thing with them.
I think most couples today should get divorced.
The thing is, that their second marriage will be just as bad.
So they may as well stay married.
Because they are not relevant to the discussion we are having.
The only point I am trying to make is that we are not practicing the same religion, and that I am mystified why some of you think we are.
Each argument you make goes further to proving my point. So keep right on rolling.
PBA:
Professor Jonathan Sarna authored that historical study very recently. It is based on what Orthodox institutional practices were at the time….
Yes, I was hoping you’d go there. And now we can see truly that you are following a different religion.
One thing to keep in mind, regarding the discussion of YCT and mechitzas and what counts as Orthodox, is that YCT requires that its students studying for semicha belong to an Orthodox shul with a mechitza.
Their making such a rule should tell you something about their students.
I can assure you that in Lakewood they don’t have a rule like that. Keeping the Torah is assumed; it is the whole point.
I practice the religion of Hazal and the Rambam, the religion of the sacred book.
Your faith is that of men, not G-d, and you care about the sacred look above all.
Thank you for making that explicit. It makes conversation so much easier. And now you should certainly concur with me that we practice a different religion. And you should probably not eat my shechita or kashrus, and should understand why I won’t eat yours.
There is no issur of a woman becoming a shochet, and the arguments against it, quit frankly, fall flat.
The arguments against it? I’ll give you one–the Rema says so.
See, there is a very wide difference between my Judaism and the one you espouse. We aren’t practicing the same religion. I don’t know why you keep insisting that we are.
Minhagim also spells gehinnam.
Presumably to signify that one who abrogates minhagim will go to gehenom.
Hazal and the Rambam, among others, do not hold like those mostly Ashkenazic authorities you cite.
We follow Rema before the Rambam. Particularly where the minhag likely developed in the time in between.
Not so extreme. Extreme would be if I wantonly discarded any Jewish practices which didn’t accord with my personal views on morality.
You like to say that: ?? ????? ???? ????. In fact, it seems that to many of the Avi Weiss type, ?? ????? is in fact a ????–to do it!
In any event, the poskim (maharik, shach, cf. rema, igor) say that by minhagim lo rainu is a raiah. Thus, Rema paskens that women do not shecht since that is the minhag. Beis Yosef asks that lo rainu eino raiah, and shach answers that since it is a minhag, lo rainu is indeed a raiah.
Which makes me wonder. How come none of these liberated women want to become shochtim?
darchei noam lol
You should quit while you’re ahead. Next thing you’ll tell us you’re a Jews for J. That would be about equally close to torah judaism.
hee hee
Who cares what you are considered. Tell the people doing the considering to take their opinions and stuff them in their noses.
If it bothers you, that is quite legitimate.
This is the best online siddur I’m aware of
Mechitza doesn’t even have any firm textual requirements, and people will make a big hullabaloo over this, while not batting an eyelash while many carry in string eruvin that also violate the Gemara and Rambam’s understanding of carrying.
Thank you for clarifying where you stand. For a proper discussion, the most necessary factor (besides for willing participants) is honesty. I appreciate your honesty. You are a good person, even if we disagree.
And, if you think mechitza is not necessary, you are not orthodox.
Popa, you didn’t answer my question about whether there are Orthodox shuls that have (in the last few years) hired Conservative (JTS) rabbis (thereby becoming Conservative).
I am not aware of any. The point I was making is that the people who choose rabbis should not be considered by anyone to have any normative authority. As evidence I presented the fact that many jewish congregations hire conservative rabbis. The same way the local Jewish Center baal habatim hire conservative rabbis and it says nothing–when some shul in Boston hires a YCT rabbi it means nothing.
Or maybe you are saying that if an Orthodox shul (a shul that has only had rabbis with Orthodox semicha and has a mechitza and doesn’t have women laining or getting aliyos) hires a YCT grad then they are no longer Orthodox?
I am saying that.
The best vegetarian liver:
3 fried onions; one of them purple.
8 boiled eggs, mushed up.
Salt
Pepper
1 Container of Meal Mart Liver
1 Vegetarian, chopped.
Ah, chopped liver and shmaltz herring. If there had to be only 2 foods in the world, I think I’d pick them.
“…To date there have been 72 Shidduchim…”
Were all but two of them an islamic suicide bomber terrorist?
What is an orthodox shul? You are defining them as orthodox first, and then saying that anything they do must be orthodox!
You should first look at what they do, and if it is orthodox, then define them as orthodox.
A shul that has no mechitza, is not orthodox. Even if it is Beth HaMedrosh Hagodol-Beth Joseph in Denver and is affiliated with the Orthodox Union. (They recently hired a YCT grad, if that fascinates you).
A shul that has women davening for the amud, or getting aliyos, or layning–is not orthodox. They may be very nice people–and many of my friends go to such shuls and are very nice and sincere people. But they are not orthodox.
And a shul that hires one of these guys (or gals) is not orthodox. You can ask your own shaila about if you are allowed to walk inside or daven there; but that won’t make them orthodox.
It is far broader than Rabbi Broyde. It is most prominent MO rabbis, and the RCA.
The chareidim could hardly care less. Sure, Yated likes to write about it, but it isn’t really relevant to us. We aren’t going to daven in their shuls or go to their schools. It is the MO who are leading the charge here, to their credit.
And is your proof that they are being hired by congregations? The hiring is done be the shul’s board–that’s whose “daas” you are relying on.
And besides, so are conservative rabbis being hired by congregations. If a congregation hires one of their clowns, it ceases to be an orthodox shul.
yytz: I’m sorry, you are pretty incorrect about this. The MO leadership are very strongly disavowing him and his movement, across the spectrum of MO.
And I’m not even referring to that article you reference.
My point is that if someone will see the written L”H, it is considered L”H.
Maybe. But what is the geder of when you need to be concerned someone will see? I certainly don’t know. Why do you think it includes “even a small chance”?
How about you just give us a source that if you write something and there is “even a small chance” someone will see it, that you are over on LH?
Also, even if it would definitely be seen, it might still be muttar. IIRC, you are allowed to tell someone LH if you need it in order to vent your emotions. Since that is the reason people write in diaries, it sounds like it could work.
I’m not saying I know it is muttar; I’m just saying you are making stuff up.
yytz; they are the ones who pulled themselves out of orthodoxy. They are the ones who self identify as “not orthodox”.
And just because they are still keeping some halacha, does not matter. They have crossed the line of being bound by the halacha and mesorah, and are being bound by their own minds only. Read some of their stuff; it’s available freely on the internet.
I read an article just a bit ago where one of their proteges argued that we should suspect that every minhag yisroel that pertains to women is based on bigotry, and abolish all of them unless we now decide for our own reasons to keep it.
????? ??? ????? ???
Why do the MO tolerate Weiss and welcome him into their rabbinic council, the RCA?
Eizeh shtuyot. The MO are the ones leading the charge against Weiss. They are the ones which don’t let his graduates into the RCA.
And I’m not talking about the right wing MO either. The left wing MO are all up in his grill.
left-wing Modern Orthodox rabbis like Rabbi Avi Weiss
Why do you call him that? He certainly would not appreciate being called “modern orthodox” and doesn’t consider himself that. He calls himself “open orthodox” to distinguish his apikorsus from the modern orthodox.
I and the modern orthodox are very close. And we are very far from these clowns.
Remember: Moshe Rabenu was willing to sit down and dialogue with those he disagreed with
I’m plenty willing to speak to them. Just like moshe.
???? ??: ??? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ?
I speak with them all the time. I know them on a personal level. And they are conservative.
The punishment for defaming talmidei hakhamim isn’t a pleasant one, my friend.
I wouldn’t sell the schar I’m going to get for my war on this faction for anything.
Identifying with one stream of Orthodoxy doesn’t give you carte blanche to defame those who disagree with you.
Defame? I don’t say anything about them that they don’t state themselves publicly. They are the ones who separated themselves from Orthodoxy. They even made up a new name to call their movement. I would presume they would be happy to see what I say, and would agree with it.
I don’t feel defamed when someone calls me Orthodox.
I think they’re talking about taxes that were withheld from income or whatever from palestinians, on behalf of the PA.
And, what is wrong with…Avi Weiss? He has more ahavat yisrael in his pinky finger than any of us will ever have, and he has brought thousands to frumkeit.
yeah yeah yeah…
Young Israel Pelham Parkway Jewish Center
2190 Muliner Avenue
(Corner Of Pelham Pkwy S.)
Bronx, New York 10462
Tel: (718)824-0630
Fax: 718.824.0631
Email: [email protected]
Mincha/Maariv at shekia.
So all the anusim began they’re conversion to Christianity in 1492, which is over 500 years ago.
You know very little about the inquisition. It was enacted in different parts of latin america at later times.
After over 500 years since the Spanish Inquisition
It has been much less than 500 years since the end of it.
???? ????? ???? ???? ????
farrocks
Member
Will anyone else ever see the diary? If there is even a small chance someone will, it will be L”H.
If you are trying to be fanatic, you are doing it all wrong. Making up halacha is non-fanatic, since it is assur to do so.
Are you sure? Which area of the bronx are you in?
Some google searching leads to the conclusion (based on a website that Vinas is affiliated with) that he has a center which provides religious services to latin american jews, including the descendants of anusim who are interested in their jewish background. It doesn’t say whether he specifically reaches out to them or that they come.
In any event, it also affiliates him with Avi Weiss, so here we go again…
maase yedah shelo only if he supports her, if he does not she can say i dont want your support and i keep my wages. i guess yeshiva boys cant learn either.
Yes, she can say that. In which case he also is not required to support her anymore. So that means they are fulfilling the obligations.
Now what.
Shalomtoyou: Maybe if you didn’t understand it, that is why you think it is offensive…