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The main question is why do Sephardim want to be in Ashkenazi schools that don’t want them.
I have heard from a Rosh Yeshiva of a Yeshiva in Yerushalayim for overseas students who is often invited by former talmidim to be mesader kiddushin, that in Eretz Yisrael the second highest kibbud is bracha acharisa while in USA the second highest kibbud is krias hakesuba (this means the monkey has been given a great honor).
By the way if I am not mistaken, the context of Rav Shachter saying that the kesuba could be read by a monkey was when asked by feminists whether a woman could read the kesubah. His answer was that reading the kesubah has no halachic significance outside of creating a separation between birchos eirusin and nisuin and as long as it is read that is fine, even by a monkey. Therefore technically speaking a woman could read it, however I assume he would not go for it for other reasons. This does not mean that it is not an important kibud.
If I recall, a feminist looking to stir trouble concluded from there and publicized that Rav Shachter views women as monkeys.
I don’t understand what is so surprising. Look at how many people (especially in Eretz Yisrael – even Hareidim) who shy away from Yiddish names. The grandmother was Gittel, the little girl named after her is Tova, some keep the Yiddish name as a middle name and add a more “acceptable” name as the first name. Why then would you wonder about the Aramaic names?
Let’s talk straight – MO used to mean being more involved in the outside world, etc. The fact is that Haredim are very involved in the outside world, especially in USA they hold jobs in all sorts of things.
MO today, unfortunately, means justifying not being stringent in halachic observances. While in all groups not everyone is a tzaddik, myself included, the difference is that if I am lax in a certain mitzvah I know that I am wrong.
MO today means you can go to mixed beaches, kiss the mother of the Bar Mitzvah boy even though she is a married woman, Shacharis at 9 AM on Shabbos regardless of zman Krias Shma, etc. Again, there are many Haredim who are guilty of the same infractions and more but they know they should be doing better. Any MOs out there with an internet filter? After all you have to be “normal” and bring pornography into your house at a button’s press. MO justifies this behavior – sad but I don’t think there is anyone out there who can deny it.
I was brought up MO and believed in what they stood for, went to YU, etc. What did I do? Throw in the towel and raise my kids Haredi – there is no choice for one who is serious about his Yiddishkeit and wants to lead a life of kedusha, times have changed and the era of the Rav, etc. are gone.
He is the only one who has the guts to say what is in the hearts and minds of most Americans. The more they try to shut him up with their leftist politically-correct rhetoric which puts lives in danger, the more popular he will be.
Do you think giving a woman wearing a short sleeve shirt and short skirt the sefer Torah to walk around with in the Ezras Nashim is traditional Judaism? I heard of one such shul where a woman read Shir Hashirim on Pesach.
The main problem with that chevra – their entire Judaism is focused on going to shul on Shabbos, there is no question that women in shul are second class. However we believe that there is much more to Judaism than going to shul on Shabbos. Let the women try working together on spiritual growth, being more medakdek in mitzvos, trying to do the ratzon Hashem. This walking around with the sefer Torah is just feminism and has no place in Judaism just like I, a Yisroel, have no right to ask for the first aliyah in shul.
I have been living in Eretz Yisrael for over twenty years, love it, love the way bli ayin hara the education my children have received which in Yiddishkeit is far more than I received. I love the fact that there is less emphasis on gashmiyus (though to my chagrin that is slowly changing even among the religious).
HOWEVER, I would never criticize those who do not come. Many people believe it or not are more SPIRITUALLY fulfilled in chutz la’aretz. Eretz Yisrael, and yes I have heard this from people who live in yishuvim as well, for whatever reason lacks that communal structure that many of us non New-Yorkers grew up with and sorely miss. Having less interaction with neighbors also means having less opportunity to give to others and to the tzibbur.
A young couple living near us had an opportunity to go to America to be marbitz Torah, my wife and I were extremely encouraging, though many others were not. What an opportunity. This is something they would not have over here and if from a ruchniyus perspective they could grow then this is what they should do. I have a friend who packed his bags ready to make aliyah when one day he said to his wife – we are growing here, we have Rabbanim, shiurim, we are a part of something. They decided not to come.
My brother told me he volunteers for the chevra kadisha sometimes and my sister is very active in bikkur cholim, these are things where there is less opportunity here and many people find great spiritual fulfillment in these things and they should be encouraged.
There are a whole host of reasons not to come, but I believe everything else can be overcome. The attitude here is difficult to handle, I think every Israeli is on guard that the other person might take advantage of him and therefore argues over what we see as nonsense. Just listen to all the road rage, the horn blowing behind you if you don’t react right away to a green light, this all comes from this attitude. The elections I also think have become holy of holies which to me is nonsense as well.
All these things are not insurmountable and if one is comfortable with who he is he can handle it. However, many people need to be involved in their communities and to give to others and there is no question that the opportunity in chutz la’aretz is far great.
Firstly, I apologize if I offended anyone, I was speaking out of my own frustration and disappointment. I went to MO elementary, one year in a hesder Yeshiva, etc. and loved it, and came here expecting much more as a whole. Obviously each person is judged on his own merit but given the polarization in Israeli society a choice needs to be made and I find the Chareidi society as a whole a much safer environment for raising children committed to Torah and Yiras Shamayim, and who thank G-d are not negatively influenced by technology and other marin bishin of today’s times.
One point – I am sorry to burst certain people’s bubble but my girls are getting a far better secular education in a chareidi seminary, than I got and far better than my nephews and nieces in MO USA. When they get together and discuss history, geography, math, science, etc. there is no comparison. I believe it is not because my kids are smarter but that it is clear that one cannot learn with a cellphone in class, with internet in their room, and with learning being not the highest priority. As for my boys, while their secular education is not formal their love for learning that the Yeshiva has produced gives them the desire to read and they too know far more than their cousins who have had formal secular education. I am proud to say not only do they know far more than I knew at their age, they know far more than I do now with my advanced degrees.
The answer is that the classroom has to be one of respect for the teacher, love for learning, and this gives a person desire to learn on his own, and most importantly one must keep away from negative influences. With all the negatives of chareidi society and I admit there are many, in this area you can’t begin to compare.
As for working – almost anybody over a certain age is doing something to make a living – you cannot live on kitzbat yeladim, child allowances. Most people by, let’s say age 35, are no longer learning full time and fully realize the obligation to support their family and marry off the children. It is a myth and motzi shem ra to say that no one is working. The fact that they are not spending a full day in hi-tech does not mean they are not earning a living. Go into almost any chareidi neighborhood – while they may not spend Pesach in 5-star hotels, they are by and large not starving by any means. The children are well-dressed and there is food on the table and almost all own their own apartments.
Try it, you might like it. I have been in both worlds and while a part of me feels an affinity to MO, I am not so Yeshivish by nature and there many social norms that bother me, but bottom line is you can’t throw out the baby with the bathwater and what do want but for our kids to be serious about Torah and mitzvoth – whether or not they believe in the State to me has no bearing on life in general.
Forget about hashkafas, these are excuses. The average person does not think about hashkafas in his daily life. A devout Jew puts on tefillin every morning and does not think about whether he believes in the State of Israel. I grew up MO, and still consider myself attached to that world. However, there is no question that I do not feel a connection for one reason – they are not interested in adherence to mitzvoth. I visit my brother I cannot go to his shul – you can see the women dancing on the other side of the mechitza (without having to look to hard), they are given the sefer Torah to walk around with while wearing miniskirts and not too much more on their upper half. How many make brachos when they eat, etc.
I came to Israel expecting DL to be Mercaz Harav where they are strict in adherence to mitzvoth but happen to dress differently and feel differently about the State (even though I find the argument irrelevant today). To my chagrin, Mercaz and co. is a small number – the average DL woman has half her hair uncovered, slits in the skirts, etc. How many homes have TV’s and unfiltered internet. Even the chareidim who do, they know that they should not be doing so, with DL they see nothing wrong with it.
The level of spirituality to me was a great disappointment. By and large DL in Israel is more or less MO in USA. One who wishes to lead a life of Torah and Yirat Shamayim, whether he likes it or not, must throw in the towel and join the Chareidi world. I myself still dress not so Yeshivish but my boys have gone to Chareidi Yeshivos, my girls to Seminary in Jerusalem, and I am extremely proud.
The hashkafa excuse is a big bluff and in my neighborhood there are “serious” kippa sruga people who are treated with respect, given aliyos, invited to simchas and feel very much a part of the community. The issue of the state is irrelevant and once a year they may go daven Shacharis somewhere else – big deal. The rest of the time they join regular Chareidi shuls.
You forgot one, I do not have the stats but Tzav is extremely rare. On non-leap years it is always Shabbos Hagadol, on leap years it is often zachor or Parah (in Yerushalayim it can be Shushan Purim in which case it is not read there but is everywhere elese). I would not be surprised if it is one of the rarest – far more rare than Pinchas.
tomim tihye:
Are you trying to tell me that it is provocative to wear gloves or a scarf? I believe the long skirts thing has to do with political affiliation – that you are dressing like a mizrachi and not chareidi.
To mischiefmaker:
As you saw from my question on page 2 regarding why they don’t allow long skirts, I am with you. What is more strange about the sheer stockings is that the Israeli seminaries (Chadash, Yashan, Snif, Bnos Elisheva, etc.) REQUIRE the girls to wear sheer stockings – no black, white, or cotton. I understand that it is mutar to wear sheer stockings, but that it is better? Sounds as ridiculous as saying long skirts almost to the floor are not tzanua – is it better to reveal some of our legs than to cover? I am very perplexed about this issue.
Why are the girls’ seminaries against skirts that are long. I know girls who have been sent home because their skirts were too long, is covering our legs a breach of tznius? Isn’t this better than the transparent stockings they make us wear?
Pardon my ignorance, I have been living in Eretz Yisrael for twenty years, I do not recall the name Black Friday from my days in the USA, in fact it is only this year that I came across it in web publications. It was always known simply as “the Friday after Thanksgiving” or “Thanksgiving Friday”, when did they start calling it Black Friday and why? Did some tragedy happen then? Is it somehow related to Black September?
We considered moving to RBS while it was being built, we saw a beautiful two story apt. in the middle of building which would have solved our space problem. Let me ask those who live there? While it is nice for us as parents to live in a predominantly anglo neighborhood, but how do the kids turn out. A sad fact that we must all face is that Israeli society is very polarized, you are either this or that. Parents can accept or reject chareidi/mizrachi or any other hanhagos, but I feared that you could be messing your kids up. We decided to throw in the towel and send them to total Chareidi institutions and integrate into Chareidi society, taking the bad with the good. Thank G-d as the kids grow up we see that it was the right choice. Any thoughts on this matter for those who live in angloland.
As someone who lives in Eretz Yisrael, let me explain a few things. Israelis have a different mentality than we Americans (yes, after 20 yrs. I still consider myself American – thank G-d). Everyone here assumes that the other is trying to take advantage of them and therefore want to protect themselves. Everything here is also more business-like. I have spoken to many families about this, given that my children are nearing shidduch-age, and if you are not comfortable with forking out so much money or squeezing someone dry for all they have, you don’t need to buy into this. If you would rather get to know your child’s potential in-laws rather than worry about their bank account, that is also fine. There are plenty of other people who feel the same way – don’t make an issue out of it, just tell shadchanim that you will be happy to discuss money when things are getting serious, so long as the mechutanim feel the same way and have bitachon that something will work out – even if not an apt. in Yerushalayim, and respectfully tell the Rosh Yeshiva to mind his own business.
The sad part is that many people think there is no alternative and put themselves in the poorhouse for this. I have spoken to many people who have bought their children apts. in a cheaper part of the Negev, etc. Like everything in life and in Yiddishkeit, you must do what you are comfortable with. Just as a person may not be comfortable with certain chumros and hanhagos, they need not buy into this.
By the way the same goes for you Americans (this I don’t identify with) who feel they have to make a fancy wedding, I have American relatives who made simple weddings because that is what they could afford. My boys’ Bar Mitzvahs were homemade food for the seudah for a small crowd, and a simple kiddush after davening on Shabbos – that is what we could afford and that is what we did.
I will never forget, one Purim my father (we live in Jerusalem) saw a bunch of boys smoking, he took one out of a kids’ mouth said “venafoch hu” and made like he was going to put the lit side in his mouth. Seriously speaking, unfortunately Yeshiva’s see nothing wrong with it. Forget about the health issues, it is rude to smell up a room and it is certainly not classy. The finest borsalino will not make up for how disgusting you look when you smoke. If my parents were to hear about a shidduch with a guy who smokes, they would not listen to anything else – good bye.
Pardon my ignorance but what is wrong with good ole simchas chassan vekallah with song, dance, and divrei Torah, why do you need these goyishe themes? Am I missing something living in Eretz Yisrael?
rivkales wrote: “i think its fine to wear nude tights but it should be obvious that your wearing something”. Are you implying that it is OK to completely expose yourself and wear something totally see-through as long as there is “something” there. Either you cover-up or you don’t need to. I do not understand the point of covering with something totally transparent that an onlooker has to look hard to see that you are wearing something there.
rivkales: do you really believe that seeing “two black sticks” indicating the toes is worse than sheer where you can see the flesh itself?
why does my seminary, and all the Israeli seminaries for that matter, insist that my stockings be of the transparent type? Is revealing my legs considered more tzanua? I asked the head of the seminary and did not get a clear answer. My father tells me “you are right it makes no sense, your cotton socks are more tzanua, but I recommend you do as they say and don’t cause problems.” My mother is a model of tznius and she only wears black stockings. Any insights?
The dowry always existed. I believe the basic problem today is the attitude. If I am not mistaken, Chazal word the dowry as being “kdei sheyikpetzu aleha tovin”, it was offered by the girl’s father to make her more desirable, and it was part of the package of her yirat Shamayim, looks, personality, yichus, etc. I am not sure if in previous generations men demanded a dowry and made the shidduch dependent on that. Unfortunately it has become a status symbol and not just a means to support a budding talmid chacham.
ambush: the stockings are see-through in most cases, in many cases you can’t even tell they have them on. There are girls who on their own are makpid to have a higher number denier, but a girl will more likely be reprimanded for black thick than for see-through. What makes it more ridiculous is that grown up women who wear black are not considered not tzanua. My friend’s daughter is extremely tzanua who grew up with longer skirts and cotton socks (she is far from modern), she got to the seminary and they told her that the skirts had to be shorter and the stockings I believe they refer to as “skin colored”. Her father who is a big tzaddik told her not to kick up a fight and that there are different definitions of what is tzanua (he told me privately that she was right but he could not pit her against the school). The only explanation I can give is “minhag Yisrael”, like a Yeshiva bachur’s suit and hat. In other words they should call it a uniform and that’s it. From a tznius perspective it makes no sense and if so they have to be careful not to kick a girl out for this, thereby giving the message that a higher level of tznius is unacceptable.
Sorry for the typo, that was supposed to be “they must not wear skirts that are too long”, not “they must now”. My apologies for all those who had no idea what I was talking about
I have one question, the seminary girls (e.g. Darchei Rachel mentioned on this post) are told they must now wear skirts that are too long and the stockings must be transparent – they may not be black, white, etc. Sounds ridiculous to me, but I have enough respect for the system not to ridicule but to ask for a reason why it is more tzanua to expose part of their legs?
To lesschumras: the collecting door to door is not for the wedding. Unfortunately in certain circles it is accustomed that the parents buy the young couple an apt. (this can range from 50-50 to the girl’s side paying everything). As much as I don’t approve of this practice, for I don’t see why they can’t move to some cheaper outlying area and even rent if necessary, it certainly makes more sense to spend money on a place for them to live then on weddings where you need a map to tell you which fork to use when. (by the way my experience has been that fancy weddings have less food on the plate – that shows you its all a bunch of fluff and no substance anyway).
To Cherrybim, sorry a ben Torah is not just about a masmid, although thank G-d I have not yet had the nisayon, if the other side is willing to break off a shidduch because the kallahs side does not wish to have a wedding with sold gold spoons, etc. then this is not a shidduch I would like to get involved in, remember the apple does not fall far from the tree and the character of the parents says something about the child as well – not his Torah hasmada but character. Secondly, if they are embarrassed at a simple wedding, I will counter that I am a simple Jew who will be greatly embarrassed by having a fancy wedding – why can’t the rich people understand where we are coming from and I am only expected to understand their position? I am sure if you are dealing with reasonable people then a compromise can be worked out. Yes, there are things you have to give in to keep the peace but not to put yourself in insurmountable debt for the rest of your life.
To Tzippi: You are right, the whole buying an apt. here in Eretz Yisrael is not normal, but there are plenty of people (mostly Americans) who manage without it, they either help their kids buy in the Negev or some other cheaper area, or they rent, etc. With that said, wouldn’t you rather spend the money having your kids settled than on a wedding which, as I said in my previous post is not much more than a license to live as man and wife, and ends after a few hours. There are many happily married couples who twenty years later cannot tell you details of their wedding. Unfortunately there are those who twenty years later remember the debt. So if you must live in Brooklyn, follow the Eretz Yisrael style – seudah just for family and a few others, with a buffet (no meat) for those who come later to dance, those who come are truly interested in being mesameach chosson vekallah.
Come to Eretz Yisrael, you can make a wedding in Yerushalayim for about $5000 each side including everything. I don’t believe the couple is any happier married with an eye-popping wedding which puts you in the poorhouse, come to your senses you Americans – what is more important the wedding or the marriage? A marriage after all is a license to live as husband and wife, it is a cause for joy but so are other times in life – remember after six hours it is over but the debts remains forever. Thank G-d I left all that – my boys’ Bar Mitzvahs were homemade food in a simple shul hall for family and a few close friends with a kiddush on Shabbos for my neighborhood, and you know what – my boys loved it. I am telling you, follow the examples of Eretz Yisrael where people have their head on straight about these things.
This is ridiculous! Paying someone to marry a girl who is older than him? There is a general problem that people have hang-ups about age, but money is not going to solve this problem. What about money for marrying overweight people or people with problems. How much would you pay me to marry a girl with thick glasses or premature gray hair? What if she is taller than me? The whole thing sounds ludicrous. The choice of a wife is a bit more complex and varies from person to person, some like tall some like short, and yes some like older and some like their age and some like younger, some want wealthy families and some run away from that. Remember, the person has to live with her the rest of his life, I don’t think he’s going to remember his 10% discount after 10 miserable years. I can’t believe anyone would choose a wife because someone is paying him to do so, if so I would check what is wrong with her.
As someone who grew up outside of NY and now live in Eretz Yisrael I find this whole thing laughable. The Catskills has gone from being a vacation to being kodesh kodoshim. My boys start Rosh Chodesh Elul (from 3 yrs. old and even if it falls in early August). We work our summer vacations around that, we always go away as a family but only between Tisha B’Av and Rosh Chodesh Elul, who says you have to go to the mountains? And if you don’t? Is this the message for your children that your vacation is more important than Torah learning. I would never consider taking my children out of school to take a vacation no matter how badly needed, this is a terrible message we are giving them. Can a true New Yorker please explain this to me?