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  • in reply to: Million Man Atzeres #1020518



    While I definitely understand how it can be emotionally difficult to know that your son is risking his life to serve his country while others are not, you must realize intellectually that there are many jobs that that do not entail any risk to life and limb are also crucial to the country. For instance, can one reasonably claim that a soldier operating an Iron Dome battery in the heart of Tel Aviv is serving his country any less than an infantryman? Are both of them not ensuring the safety of their fellow Jews?

    And is the Torah not at least as important in ensuring the safety and continuity of the Jewish People as is the Iron Dome, and therefore just at least as worthy of state support?

    What is hypocritical about believing that a life dedicated to Torah contributes at least as much to the safety and continuity of the Jewish People as serving 36 months in the IDF does?


    Wow. What a snide, derogatory, spiteful, and above all false generalization. You should be ashamed of yourself.


    in reply to: Popa's grand vizier, taking questions #945613

    Who does Gelila in Popaland?

    in reply to: PHOTO: Orthodox Jewish Man Covers Himself In Plastic Bag On Plane #945898

    So then what’s the point of having a Posek? Just always do what everyone else around you is doing.

    in reply to: Yom HoAtzmaut and Behab #946992


    “The Kanoim who are posting here clearly did not read V’Yoel Moshe where the Satmar Rebbe clearly states that there is no point in arguing with Apikorsim or those who are already influenced by the Zionists.”

    Or the Kanoim here aren’t affiliated with Satmar.


    “you are totally wrong. Of course, the Holocaust, with all its tragic and catastrophic aspects, was the will of HKBH! What else can you say?”

    Actually, that’s exactly what I said.


    “The word “kefira” has a halachic meaning. What exactly constitutes kefira is a machlokes Rishonim. It is not a word that should be thrown around lightly.”


    in reply to: Mai Ahanu lan Rabanan – definition #945477


    in reply to: Posting Too Much #946177

    “Sometimes I think I should take a break.”

    Actually, I’ve been thinking that recently myself. I’m spending way too many hours here, and getting into discussions that are far too heated. I think I might be headed for the tail end of ICOT’s curve in the near future.


    While there is indeed some grey area about where the issur of being mevazeh tamlidai chachamim is said, I think we all agree that it does not include being mevazeh Saul Lieberman and does include being mevazeh the entire Moetzes.

    “I’m just saying what I honestly believe to be the truth.

    I know. That is unfortunate :-(“

    And here I was, hoping for if not an apology, at least the beginning of a more respectful tone in this debate. Silly me.

    “Actually, the Charaidim just won’t rely on the vast majority of the heterim that the D”L will.

    To quote:

    Actually, they’re just paskening what they honestly believe to be the truth. Is it so hard to accept that somebody just honestly disagrees with you? Why do you have to assume the worst and sink to such disparagement?”

    The difference is that I did not in any way disparage the D”L. I did not offer various snide possible motives for everything they do. I did not accuse them of only caring about their own wallets, having a “poor” education system as judged by the result, being shallow, or not having sufficient faith in Hashem.

    You, however, did do all that to the either the Chareidim in general or me specifically.


    As far as I’m aware, none of the members of the American Moetzes have ever assered the Internet.


    “A counter-protest should be organized.”


    “Have any of these gedolim or askanim fought to protect yerushalayim… they should stay out of it”

    The fact that the Gedolim haven’t fought in any wars does not disqualify them from giving over Da’as Torah about the situation.

    “These gedolim need to seriously think about how to best address the needs of klal yisroel. Insulting other ideologies, as well as degrading the soldiers that put their lives on the line for Israel to exist, is not gadlus and not kavod Torah.”

    I’ll tell you what: when you’re the Gadol Hador, you can decide what issues deserve to be dealt with.

    Oh, and I’d love to see just one example of a Gadol “degrading the soldiers that put their lives on the line for Israel to exist”.

    in reply to: PHOTO: Orthodox Jewish Man Covers Himself In Plastic Bag On Plane #945896


    Should one ignore the shita of his Posek wherever he isn’t the Mora D’asra?


    “It’s actually horrifying what we came to. When we were persecuted we stood through it and didn’t up. Now we are merely being laughed at and we want to buckle?”


    in reply to: Yom HoAtzmaut and Behab #946987


    “Actually, the Sefardim were kicked out of just about every country at one point or another (as were the Ashkenazim).”

    All at once? And not allowed back in?


    “you hate the Zionists, many (most?) jews are Zionists, you hate many (most?) jews, an anti-Semite hates jews, you are an anti-Semite.”

    I do not hate Zionists; I vehemently disagree with them.

    Do you hate us anti-Zionists?


    “Do you believe that the medinah was established against the will of HKBH? A very simple answer- yes or no?”

    Being Jewsih, I’m going to answer that with a question: Do you believe that the Holocaust was against the will of HKBH? A very simple answer- yes or no? Assuming you agree the answer is no, does that mean we should celebrate the occurrence of the Holocaust?

    You know, I really enjoy the intellectual stimulation of a rational, if heated, debate. It’s a shame that this thread has degraded into petty insults.


    “So when you are Mevaze “Rabbi” Saul Lieberman, you have no Chelek? It is nice to spout terms without knowing the consequences of your thoughts, in your haste to support “the Gedolim”.”

    I did not make up the concept of hamevazeh talmeidai chachomim, ein lahem chelek li’olam haba; the Gemara (brought down li’halacha by the Rambam) did. The fact that this does not apply to Saul Lieberman hardly disproves the entire idea.

    “The Charaidi education system is so poor that while the Rav Kook Chardal sector of Israel has no problem with the Army, the Charaidim would all go off the Derech if they joined.”

    Actually, the Charaidim just won’t rely on the vast majority of the heterim that the D”L will.


    “KND, you did not answer anything of substance — you said it’s a zechus.”

    No I didn’t. I said that the Lapid/Bennet plan is a geziras shmad because its stated goal is to decrease the amount Torah learning. The purpose of a gezira is what classifies it as shmad, not the means.


    “so, you agree to the outlandish accusations that have been mande such as: this a “terrible gezeira”, “the destruction of torah”. “dragging yeshiba bochurim from the beth hamedrash”, “jaharog ve’al jaavor’ and more.”

    I never said that. (Although now that you bring it up: One and three, yes; two, somewhat; four, no.) All did was point out that it isn’t just Chareidim who are “so over thw top that they are discriting themselves!!”; a point which you keep proving.


    “The askanim are so scared that their funds will be cut off that they will say ANYTHING to rally others to their cause. Don’t blame Kanoi, he is just parroting what the “askonim” have said that the “Gedolim” would want him to say.”


    “Sadly, you have pointed out the real reason for all this huffing and puffing: money. Enough said.”

    Actually, I’m just saying what I honestly believe to be the truth. Is it so hard to accept that somebody just honestly disagrees with you? Why do you have to assume the worst and sink to such disparagement?

    in reply to: PHOTO: Orthodox Jewish Man Covers Himself In Plastic Bag On Plane #945892


    “I’m not saying that this is one of them even. I’m just saying that there’s precedent for such a concept.”

    Got it.

    “doing something that no one else does in a public manner (and nowadays, because of the internet, most weird-looking things are public) is a serious Shaila of Mechze K’yuhara”

    Even if one’s Posek holds it’s a chiyuv?

    in reply to: Possible reasons Orthodox man sat in plastic bag on plane :-) #956097

    simcha613, where did I make fun of those who say Hallel?


    “mainstream American Chareidim work for a living — something the Israeli Chareidim refuse to comprehend.”

    What the Israeli Chareidim refuse to do is to go to the army, because they find it a spiritually dangerous environment. Due to that they barred by Israeli law from working.

    mods: Sorry, I thought it got overlooked (it’s happened before).

    no, it hasn’t. if it is pending approval it is pending approval for a reason.


    I think that the D”L who do nothing but denigrate and malign the Chareidim, while casting snide aspersions on the Gedolim, are “so over thw top that they are discriting themselves!!”


    You said that already, and I responded to it. Repeating it in bold does not make it any more convincing.


    Hamevazeh talmeidai chachomim, ein lahem chelek li’olam haba…


    “I don’t think those of us in galut should be telling Israelis how to run their defense forces.”

    I don’t think those of us who are not religious should be telling Chareidim how much Torah they’re allowed to learn.

    in reply to: PHOTO: Orthodox Jewish Man Covers Himself In Plastic Bag On Plane #945882


    Are you claiming that being machmir on anything is assur?


    Shocking as this may be just because you haven’t seen something done doesn’t mean that there aren’t Poskim who say it should be done. Again, this is the being reported as the shita of R’ Elyashiv or R’ Zilberstein; that doesn’t mean everybody will hold of it.

    in reply to: Israeli flag flown at Ponavez? Why? #945217

    “We must be Makir Tov to Medinat Israel for having opened their doors to Jewish Stateless people.”

    Yeah, life is real rough for all the “stateless” Jews in America.

    in reply to: Yom HoAtzmaut and Behab #946975


    i do not hold of the Satmar shitta. I hold like R’ Shach, R’ Elyashiv, and R’ Shteinman.

    Avi K:

    “It was obviously brought about by Hashem and we see that it is a leap forward in the unfolding Geula.’

    Repeating something does not make it true. You have to actually prove it.

    “The history of Jews in Arab lands is a history of persecution and this is well known to anyone who has studied even a little of the history.”

    Oh yeah? Were the Arabs were killing 25 thousand Jews every 65 years? Did they ever kick Sephardi community out before? “Anyone who has studied even a little of the history” knows that the answer to both those questions is a resounding “no”. Again, merely repeating the same tired dross over and over does not make turn it into the truth.

    “As for rov, when it was pointed out to the Satmar rebbe that he was a daat yachid”

    So was R’ Kook.


    “I have found the following to be a good general rule: unless you are a satmar, an anti-zionist is an anti-semite.

    Until about halfway through your comment, I honestly thought that it was a satire piece designed to show the ridiculous accusations that pro-Zionists will level at anyone who disagrees with them. The fact that you seem to have truly meant it only proves that point even better.

    do not resubmit pending posts

    in reply to: Yom HoAtzmaut and Behab #946955

    147, you have brought exactly two cases of pre-1948 terrorism; over twenty five thousand Jews have been killed since then. Hardly comparable.

    Nobody is suggesting that the Arabs loved us unconditionally before the founding of the Medina, only that doing so provoked them into being much, much worse.

    in reply to: Why did Hashem create the world as He did? #945268


    “This is the rationale of those who choose not to explain Bereishis literally, and choose science over literalism. ??? ????? ???? ??? ?? ??????? ?? ???????: not just because he is merciful, but because such a method would totally defeat the purpose.”

    The problem that I have with this is that you seem to be assuming that everything that science tells us today is the absolute, unquestionable truth; and I’m simply not convinced that that is the case. Science at one point believed that the world was flat, the sun orbited the earth, thought took place in the heart, and rocks fell back to the ground because they got tired. Obviously, today we look at all that as foolish nonsense; what makes you think that in a couple of hundred years we won’t see today’s science in much the same light?

    Science is merely the ever-changing observations and hypotheses of mortal flesh and blood as to how the universe works; the Torah is the Word of the Eternal Creator. If the two seem to disagree, I think it makes much more sense to assume that science is wrong than to change the meaning of the Torah.

    in reply to: Yom HoAtzmaut and Behab #946948

    Naftush, I in no way compared the establishment of the Sate of Israel to the Holocaust. I merely pointed out that saying “Hashem caused the founding of the Medina, it must be good” is every bit as ridiculous as saying “Hashem caused the Holocaust, it must be good”.


    The existence of a secular state claiming to represent the Jewish People is a tremendous Chillul Hashem, and its insistence on provoking the Arabs has cost tens of thousands of Jewish lives. If you think that’s the beginning of the Geula, I have a bridge to sell you.


    “But- confounding the anti-zionists- it also does not make the Zionist leadership of any color “kofrim’.”

    No, the fact that they were kofrim is what makes them kofrim. You can’t rewrite history.

    “it is incontestable that the founding of the medinah has brought great blessings and hatzlocho to the jewish people. For that reason alone, we should praise the establishment of the medinah.”

    The fact that the Medina has brought benefits to the Jewish people does nothing to whitewash its underlying, secular ideology. We do not support that ideology in any way, shape or form; ergo, we do not support the state.

    in reply to: PHOTO: Orthodox Jewish Man Covers Himself In Plastic Bag On Plane #945861


    “Halacha generally comes with reams of fine print for situations in which “no matter what” creates more problems than it solves. An example is the principle of bending rules when not doing so puts Torah to ridicule.”

    If you have a source for that, I’ll take it seriously. Otherwise, I’m gonna assume you made it up.


    “Many here do think this is a Chilul hashem are saying this man is a Chassid Shoteh.”

    Many people, but no sources. Halacha is not decided by popular vote. Stop making up Halachos.

    Avi K:

    “everybody agrees that the real learners should continue to receive deferments.”

    If only. The fact is that the Lapid/Bennet shmad team want to put a limit on how many people are allowed to remain in full time learning; everybody else must do the Zionist’s bidding.


    For the umpteenth time, this is not just about funding. I repeat: the stated goal of Lapid and his lap dog Bennet is to get the vast majority of the Chareidim out of the Bais Medrash and into the army and workforce. The fact that the first steps are “only” economic sanctions does not change the purpose and nature of this campaign.


    “That’s what a tailor does when he performs gezeira on his cloth; he surely doesn’t “punish” it and the cloth doesn’t rise up in anguished protest. So is it when a government acts to reduce a bloated budget deficit, to downsize a set of educational institutions that has enrolled too many people, etc.”

    Call it a hunch, but somehow I don’t think you’d be singing the same tune if the date was 2005 and the subject was the Disengagement.


    “Im just not sure what the media coverage is meant to accomplish. If secular Israelis can’t understand the value of sitting and learning they expect the non Jews to understand?”

    It is supposed to convey the message to the world that Jews worldwide do not support the Israeli government’s attempts to draft the Chareidim, thereby increasing pressuring on the Lapid/Bennet shmad team. But that is only a secondary function; the primary purpose is “to create awareness among Frum Yidden in America about the unfolding situation in Eretz Yisroel, where most of the funding for Mosdos Hatorah will be cut by the Government, as well as the possibility of Yeshiva Bochrim being drafted to the Army”, as YWN says on the homepage.


    Joe runs the world.


    “And shame on the Agudah of America in becoming a puppet of some of the more extreme groups in Eretz Yisroel.”

    I must admit that I find your automatic assumption that the Agudah is being a “puppet” of the E”Y Chareidim somewhat amusing. Is it really that hard for to comprehend that mainstream, American Chareidim actually oppose dragging the Israeli Chareidim out of the Bais Medrash?

    in reply to: Opening car door on date #945568

    Seriously, are we gonna go through this again? Well, then we may as well get it over with.

    All those who open the door for their dates are immoral, prust, and slave to gentile mentality. All those who don’t are backwards, rude, smelly, and not suitable for marriage.

    Now, let everybody elaborate on that theme for three pages, a week and a half, or the closing of the topic; whichever comes first.

    in reply to: Why did Hashem create the world as He did? #945264


    “we hardly have any bechira at all if you think about it.who well marry is annonced 40 days b4 were born, we don’t choose our family, who will like and accept us for who we are, whether were a dude or dudette… Hashem give us our lives and we have to decide what to do with everything.”

    Hakol biday Shamayim, chootz mi’yiras Shamayim. And that’s what really counts.


    “My point is that some generations had it easy when it came to emunah because they were able to see nisim v’niflaos. We, on the other hand, are in a generation of atheists and evolutionists that are bringing proofs against Hakodosh Baruch Hu. So how is that fair playing field?”

    Li’foom tzara, agra. That makes it fair field.


    Bechira exists, IMHO, to allow us a chance to work on ourselves and develop a relationship with Hashem. Then, when Hashem is revealed as King, we will be able to enjoy our connection with Him. Bechira is a means to a greater end; that is why it is good that we have it now, and good that it will disappear in the future.

    in reply to: How would you respond to Savage on Metzitzah #1028040

    Whether or not MBP is required/advisable li’halacha or not is pretty much a side issue at this point. The much larger issue is the fact the government, led by Nanny Bloomberg of soda size limit fame, is attempting to dictate how we can and cannot observe our Religion. This is highly problematic, and sets a scary precedent for future regulations on religion.

    in reply to: Is it tznius to #947101

    It is OK to read books written by somebody who is not male only if all the characters are male, and even then the characters may only discuss things pertaining to fellow males. If the book so much as contains the pronoun “she” (shudder, shudder) it must be burnt.


    “since when cant women speak what they think? is a womens thoughts so tameh that men cant know what they are now?”

    Of course. Don’t you know that the most basic tenet of Ultra-Orthodoxy is that women are inferior beings who must be completely controlled by men, lest they think for themselves? And that the reason we separate the genders is so that the men are not tainted by the impurity of lesser beings I won’t even deign to mention?

    Come on, you have to start reading more blogs.

    It’s about time.


    It’s a gezira because the stated goal of Lapid and his lap dog Bennet is to get the vast majority of the Chareidim out of the Bais Medrash and into the army and workforce. The fact that the first steps are “only” economic sanctions does not change the purpose and nature of this campaign.

    in reply to: Possible reasons Orthodox man sat in plastic bag on plane :-) #956094

    I don’t think there’s anything wrong with #5, seeing as its not making fun of Ben Bag Bag in any way. However, I agree with DY’s questioning the appropriateness of making jokes about somebody keeping the Halacha (according to his Posek).

    in reply to: Yom HoAtzmaut and Behab #946932


    “avoda zara of Zionism”

    Let’s not push it.

    Avi K:

    “we have of State of Israel because Hashem wants us to have a state.”

    We had a Holocaust because Hashem wanted us to have a Holocaust; that doesn’t mean we should celebrate its occurrence, does it?

    in reply to: Yom HoAtzmaut and Behab #946922

    I think you say selichos first, then rays kriya.

    Baruch Dayan HaEmes. I always enjoyed his comments.

    Oh Shreck: +1

    in reply to: Separate Yeshivas for the Kollel Families #944872

    It think we can all agree that there are some people that we would not want our children to hang out with, for fear of them being negatively influenced; I think the same can and should be applied to talmidim. While many exclusionary acceptance policies are based solely on gayvah, there must be some limit about who we will allow to influence our kids.

    in reply to: PHOTO: Orthodox Jewish Man Covers Himself In Plastic Bag On Plane #945840


    “There is little that justifies this kind of insanity.”

    See, us crazy ultra-Orthodox Jews believe in this thing called “halacha”, which we follow no matter what. However, there are other streams of so-called-Judaism may deviate from the halacha if they deside it looks “insane”; try Reform.

    “I don’t buy Kanievsky’s psak at all, it’s stringent for the sake of being stringent.”

    Mods, don’t you think that accusing “Kanievsky” of completely making up halachos is well over the line of an acceptable comment?


    “DaasYochid – I said turned off. The issur of creating a chillul Hashem is not only amongst non-Jews , its amongst your fellow brethren as well. The reason why I am saying this is because many times we have to do things that non-jews think are completely absurd and look down at us for(i.e.bris mila, davening in public)”

    So according to your definition of Chillul Hashem (which I’d love to see a source for, by the way), why isn’t bris mila and davening indeed a Chillul Hashem?

    “but in this case , it goes both ways and is obviously not halacha.”

    Says you. Apparently, R’ Elyashiv disagrees.


    “I’m sure there are Jews who are very close to accepting the truth of Orthodoxy and becoming complete ba’alei teshuvah, who see something like this (or some other ultra-machmir practice), and get turned off for good.”

    First of all, basing your opinion entirely on something that you merely assume is true does not make for a very convincing argument. (The same goes for your previous statement “I find it hard to believe no major poskim would find grounds for leniency”.)

    Secondly, we do not believe in whitewashing Judaism for the sake of PR. Our job is to keep the Halacha as best as we can, not to change it to make it palatable to the world.


    “I have no doubt that this individual was doing what he was told was right. That said, I’m an observant person and seeing this makes me question whether I should be less observant. Honestly. There is no way that Hashem intends us to wrap ourselves in plastic bags when we travel on airplanes.”

    If you’ll excuse me for being so blunt, when did Hashem tell you exactly what He does and doesn’t want?

    “Aside from causing us to be the object of ridicule amongst the nations to whom we are meant to be light”

    Would you similarly advocate that we drop our objections to homosexuality, abortion, etc. due to the nations’ ridicule?


    “So why is it a problem in Israel , but not a problem at LaGaurdia Airport, Plenty of Charedim use LaGauadia Airport (It might be a problem at JFK too, but im not sure) .”

    According to this shita, it very well might be. However, Chareidim are not made in molds and are not necessarily in lockstep on every issue; some follow other shittos.

    in reply to: Brainwashing as Part of Chinuch #1014409

    I do not think that there is any significant amount of true, subliminal brainwashing going on in either seminary or in college; there is simply a certain worldview being pushed. And there should be; arguably the most important goal of a school is to ensure that the its students have the proper worldview. The obvious problem is that different people have different opinions as to what exactly is the proper world view. However, to insist all seminaries as “brainwashers” merely because they espouse a hashkafa that you disagree with is intellectually dishonest.

    (Also, the argument can be made that the little true brainwashing that does occur in schools is largely accidental. When a teacher says “when you go to college, you will see the full extent of this concept” odds are that he is not intentionally trying to brainwash his students to go to college; he is simply speaking from his assumptions.)

    Now, I do agree that the BY system should be more open to answering questions, and should perhaps inform its students of financial the realities of kollel life; but that doesn’t make the entire system “brainwashing”.

    in reply to: Questions About Monsey's Litvish/Chasidish Sociological Mix #1132814

    Monsey has a strong, independent Litvish population, but if you venture out of the Litvish residential neighborhoods you will more likely than not bump into Chassidim. The shopping/commercial areas are pretty much integrated, but the residential neighborhoods each retain their own flavor (which is helped by the fact that everything is spread out).

    in reply to: Smart people and the marketplace of ideas #943096

    Well, I guess I’m not one of those really smart people. I think the idea of a “marketplace of ideas” is entirely of western origin and has no source in Judaism. We believe in the concept of absolute wrong and absolute right, and one should not expose oneself or one’s children to ideas that are contrary to Torah and Daas Torah.

    in reply to: Is Israel bent on losing their protection? #943508


    “The arguments of some of the posters here defy logic and they will always find a way of twisting the facts to justify their opinions. “

    Funny, I was about to say the same thing.

    “If this were so, then why didn’t the chachomim over the many centuries insist on kollelim everywhere for everyone?”

    Because it simply wasn’t possible then.

    Let me put this as bluntly as I can: Do you, or do you not, believe that the bad things that happen to us are (often) punishments for our aveiros?

    in reply to: Is Israel bent on losing their protection? #943485

    I don’t know, and I’m happy we didn’t find out.

    Besides, one could make the argument that the Holocaust was the worst-case scenario, as spelled out in parshas Ki Savo, and was caused by generations of widespread abandonment of the Torah.

    in reply to: Is Israel bent on losing their protection? #943483

    Avi K:

    “What do you think you’ll find in the Beis Midrash?” Some learners and many empty seats.”

    Did you ever actually check it out yourself, or is this just the assumption you’ve made based on your preconceived notions?

    Do yourself a favor and visit the Mir Yeshiva during seder, and try finding an empty seat. Here’s a hint: you won’t.


    Torah and mitzvos protect us. We say it twice a day. Sure, bad things have happened while we had (some) Torah learning, but perhaps if we had less learning, they would’ve been worse.

    “You can always claim that- if not this or that- there would be more-but this is your false assumption and you cannot, for one moment,prove it.”

    It says it on the Torah. That isn’t proof enough for you?


    “hazal said that the Torah protects and bittul Torah can bring on tzaros. We can not always know why things happen, but Chazal and later Gedolim would sometimes tie certain tzaros to certain aveiros.”


    in reply to: Popa Critiques Troll Posts #942891

    Kudos to MA for managing to troll the official troll thread. Very impressive.

    in reply to: Emunah Help? #1194812


    “Emunah comes through practice.”

    What do you mean? How does one practice believing?

    For sources, I second interjection’s suggestion of Lawrence Keleman’s Permission to Believe / Permission to Receive.

    in reply to: Is Israel bent on losing their protection? #943468

    “I feel that the terrorists are being forced by Hashem to attack”

    I don’t think the terrorists need to be “forced” to try to kill us; they’ve been into that for a while. The question is whether Hashem will let them do so, and yes, that is indeed dependant on the zchusim of the general population.


    “The handful of frummies who see kedusha in the medinah are a very small and hated minority.”

    Not true.


    “I don’t like the OP’s seeming attitude of “I told you so”, and I don’t know that we can point at any particular tragedy and blame it on the plans of the Jewish reshaim’s plans, but I am scared for the security of the inhabitants of the Holy Land, and the rest of the world’s Yidden as well, with the decreased zechuyos.”


    in reply to: Brainwashing as Part of Chinuch #1014323


    “My definition of brain washing in this case is that, for me at least, and some of the secular teachers pointed it out at the school I went to, we would be told about how we HAVE to do ____________ and if we don’t do it in our future, it will cause harm to society”

    If a school teaches that you HAVE to marry a working boy and/or work yourself or it will cause harm to society, would you call that brainwashing?

    “Personally, I think the fact that people say asking questions is bad needs to end and when it changes to “as Jews, we need to understand the religion we are practicing, ask away!”

    I fully agree. But that problem does not mean that the entire BY system is broken, or brainwashing.

    “There needs to be someone who knows about all the schools in a community that can help people choose the right school for them so that they don’t have these issues. There is more to a school than the hashkafa.”

    That is not a problem with the school system; the problem is that people are going to the wrong schools. You can hardly blame that on “the system”.


    “Some people do call Bais Yaakov a cult.”

    Some people are morons.


    “Everyone is saying that By and Jewish education is not brainwashing. It is giving over information. These same people are saying that college, by offering liberal courses, IS brainwashing. Again, by giving over information.

    What’s the difference?”

    I agree; there is no difference. Both of them are giving over their worldview to their students; that’s what schools do. But to call that “brainwashing” is ridiculous.

    in reply to: Is Israel bent on losing their protection? #943459


    So you don’t think that the reduction in the amount of Torah being learnt will take away from the zchusim of the State of Israel, and have negative effects?

    in reply to: Brainwashing as Part of Chinuch #1014278


    “what they mean is that some people in the BY system have distorted (not Torah-true) views. Usually, they are distorted in the right-wing direction.”

    Aha. So, if a school endorses a right-wing hashkafa that you disagree with, they’re “brainwashing” people.

    I find it interesting how teaching right-wing hashkafos is “brainwashing” people, while teaching left-leaning hashkafos is just being “open-minded”. If you want to argue that the Bais Yaakov/black hat hashkafa is “not Torah-true”, go right ahead; but don’t hide behind double-standards and false labels.

    in reply to: Why should I go to sem? #1043540


    “I have literally never met someone who was happy they had gone to sem, more than 5 years later.”

    You haven’t met everyone.

    I know many people who are very happy they went to seminary, and I’ve heard it called “the best years of my life” more than once…


    “Sem is one of the major things that is destroying Klal Yisroel today.”

    Oh, please.

    Seminary is largely responsible for the world of kollel that exists today, and all of the learning that it includes.

    in reply to: Drinking Wine with an Evolution Believer #942026


    This was presented by the OP as a halachic statement, and you cannot simply dismiss that as “not meant to be amen literally”.


    “Rambam didn’t include that as an ikkar of faith. Neither did R’Hasdai Crescas. Nor did R’Yosef Albo. It appears in none of the lists of 613 mitzvot. Does an Acharon have the power to change halachah by adding an ikkar?”

    No, he doesn’t. Which is why if R’ Elyashiv did indeed issue such a psak, he probably either felt that this should either fall into one of the categories brought down by the Rambam, or that believing in evolution was merely contrary to the Torah, and that it would be considered like a ger was not completely mekabel the Torah.

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