ubiquitin

ready now

This conversation is going down some strange rabbit hole, and I am no longer sure what your point is.

To remind you we are discussing “why doctors don’t want to give hydroxychloroquine even though it is working throughout the country (lenox hill, KJ, etc.) and has almost no risk (no heart attacks have been reported even though many doses have been given)?”

THAT is the discussion

You now ask “How on earth was he supposed to use his med regimen on people who in a “random sample” might not even have had coronavirus infection?! ”
I have no idea what you are saying. a. He DID give his regimen to people who might not have it and b. We don’t know what would have happened to any sick people had they not gotten it (the vast vast majority of these patients do fine)
Again to be clear: I am not saying he is wrong. I am not faulting him for not doing a proper RCT. I am solely answering the question, why just because he says he has success others aren’t convinced.

“means that it is random only in the sense that it is “first to need my services will ring my office for an appointment first”, ”

Then it isn’t random. you are selecting one area, you are selecting those with minor symptoms, you are selecting those who are more conscientious as to how they are feeling (“first to need” ) , as others have pointed out the demographics of his patients are not generalizable. AGAIN this isn’t a fault with him. It is just why this may not be generalizable.

Here is a summary of his study:
500 patients who may or may not have had Coronovirus, and who were feeling pretty well with mild symptoms took HCQ and did not die.

Do you disagree with any point of the above synopsis?
Do you really not understand who some would not find that compelling?

secondly, ready now

“Further 737 people die taking total to 10,612 as cases rise by 5,288 to 84,279″
10,612 divided by 84,279 = That makes 12.59% death rate.”

Approximately 0% of Dr. Zelenko’s patients would be in the denominator of that figure (had we been in the UK) because that is percentage of those TESTED. As Dr. Zelenko readily reports, he did NOT test his patients

“7% is the percentage of AT-RISK patients who die”

source please

“Apparently you don’t realize that every hospitalized patient started off as a so called “walking ill”.”
sometimes yes, sometimes no.

“Just to go over it again, that means if you take a random sample of 500 at-risk people who have symptoms, about 30 should end up dying. Agreed?”

key owrds: “random sample”

“So if a Dr. Like Dr. Zelnko treats 500 random at-risk patients, ”
Yes! If he did that.

but……. he didnt do that. As IVe been saying over and over HE SELECTED the walking well. He is limited to Kiryas Joel (maybe they have extra fluoride in the water that helps? maybe they have a better hospital system, it isnt random”

“Agreed? Great!”
It is great!
You finally get it. To have meaning, he would need to take a “random sample” (your words)
He didnt, thus his data s not necessarily generalizable.
Again and toeb crystal clear: He may be right (as Ive said in the first comment and about every other comment since then). but his data does not show that As YOU acknowedge by the fact that you stuck in the word ” random” which is not what happened

Ready
“What it does tell us is that the 7 % to 13 % who would have died had they not received the HCQ with the antibiotic and the zinc did not die!”

Sadly that is incorrect.
Remember he is selecting the walking well. Where did you get your figure that 7-13% of those who are walking well will die from corona?
Furthermore, in his interview s he reports most of them weren’t even tested? Who says they had corona at all?

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

IF you are using a free email service, messenging ap, social meds platform etc etc, then it should be obvious to you tha tthey are gettign something in return, namely your information.
If you dont want them to have, it don’t use it

No

There is no guarantee. Coronovirus never got the memo that it isnt supposed to harm young healthy people. IVe seen many in their thirties and few in their twenties

I replied last night, I’m not sure why it didnt go through

2scents
yasher koach for your points

“Now that you have revealed that you are a nephrologist, can you briefly explain why some patients that are sick with the coronavirus develop rhabdomyolysis?”
I think its like any viral ilness which rhabdo is a known potential sequale . furthermore they seem to be in a hypercatabolic state. I can dialyse patients daily and their potassiums are still through the roof .

Health
“for most harm likely outweighs the benefit.””

I meant in the aggregate. Say you give it to 1000 people who were healthy and were going to do well anyway. One of them gets a prolonged QT leading to torsades and dies. That is more harm than benefit you killed one person to save nobody.

” Sorry for the harsh words, but it needs to be said.”

Absolutely no apology necessary. you have no clue what you are talking about, and your post is riddled with emotion devoid of fact or logic. I understand completly where yo uare coming from.

“Stupidest argument, because you can say it by any patient who gets better after taking medication (perhaps he would have gotten better)”

Yes of course we could and we do!. thats why we do studies
Are Ace inhibitors good for Hyperteinsives with proteinuria? Studies how they are. What about Arbs,? studies show they are. LEts combine them for a super medication seems like a no brainer? Wrong! studies show combining them leads to more harm.

Does HCQ help Pts with Covid19? Maybe some anecdotal reports say yes other say no. Lets study it. Whats the harm in giving it? So for some youre right there is no harm as IVe said several times ) for most harm likely outweighs the benefit.

Maybe schmear butter on their heads, it cant hurt. My neighbor did it to all 9 of hr children and they are al fearing fine. Anybody who doesnt schmear butter on their heads is evil. Negating her treatment because of lack of available tests is foolhardy. sorry but it had to be said

““Dr. Vladimir Zelenko said that in 699 COVID-19 cases, there was a 100% success rate.”

that isnt a study. He is an outpatient physcian. He (by definition) sees the walking well. A “study” that tells us 100% of coronoavrius patients who arent sick don’t get intubated doesnt tell us much of anything if at all.

similarly say I saw 699 patients all of whom took HCQ + zinc + z pack and most have unfortunatly passed . would that be a reason NOT to take it ?
of course not. those patients were much sicker

Put another way what would have happened to those patients if they didnt take his regimen? Keep in mind the vast vast majority of those infected do just fine (which is part of the problem ironically ) who is to say that they (like most patients) wouldn’t have done just as well?

anonymous
“promising and if a patient is dying,what is the risk in prescribing the drug?”

As Iv e said, The patients that IVe seen are apretty much all on HCQ. As I said in my first post “That said for a sick patient the benefit (possible survivial) outweighs the risk so might as well give it.”

“Have you used it with the z-pack and zinc?”

Yep used it with everything can think of – (to be clear I’m usually not the one ordering it )

but again, I see the sickest patients (I’m a nephrologist I get called when multiple organs ie kidneys are shutting down) . so that has zero bearing on healthier patients. thats why we need studies

“A tzibur is a corporate entity, not an ad hoc minyan. It has a continuing existence, ”

Mehichi teisi?

Or in modern parlance, source please.

I don’t find that mistaber at all, if you have a source I would defer to it. But to me it would seem If the tzibur didn’t gather there is no tzibur

wouldnt moshiach coming before PEsach make the seder more besimcha?

Agree

“You’re doing it again.”

doing what?

” I don’t disagree with any of what you write”

Great. that is ok. People dont have to disagree. I’m not sure why that is a problem.

” but it is NOT an answer to the claim you are tying it to. ”

I’m not sure what claim you think it is tied to. (I posted it in repsonse to ” whats the big deal?”) This is a thread about DNR’s against patient’s wishes (see the OP) . My point is that By choosing one patient over another, then by definition you are making the patient you don’t tend to DNR even against his/family wishes.

“. You cannot make a comment that a doctor subscribes to letting old people go to save the resources for young people based on a situation that does not in any way illustrate that point”

It depends on how you define resources. If time is a resource then it is an example. If not not you dont have to agree with said example. Again though that wasnt what this thread is about if you dont think time counts as a resource fine then this isnt an example.

. You are bringing “supporting evidence” that describes an in the moment need to address two individuals, viable and not viable, and chosing viable with deciding to leave supplies in the storage room just in case a younger person happens to need it. ”

Sadly it isnt “just in case” It is for a certainty. See The Teshuva by Rabbi Shechter .

“For example, viable vs non viable (your scenario) does not mean old vs young.”

Without question this is true. though in tends that way. but you are of course correct.

” There was no such young person there at the time.”

I’m sorry to hear about that unacceptable incident. but is not the situation we face today.

“THAT is an example of letting the elderly go to save resources for the young.”

This thread is not about ” letting elderly go to ave the young ” it is about making a patient. DNR against their wishes. My quoting Eli was NOT to say he was “letting elderly go to save the young” ( again that isnt the topic of this thread) I quoted him to dispell this notion that blood is being banked for later, and items being “left in storage” there are 2 cardiac arrests an hour tending to those alone would leave no time for anything else. There is no room in the ER, patients are kept in chairs. Yet some people are under the impression that they “leave supplies in the storage room just in case …” THAT was what I was trying to dispell.

“The doctor that posted this does not subscribe to the notion of sacrificing older patients so there are more resources for younger more viable patients.”

My family knows him quite well.
And Of course he does. Though he (and I) probably wouldn’t describe it that way)
When he has 2 patients crashing at once one has been on vent for past 2 weeks and getting worse the other just showed up and had been stable until now.

How does he decide who to help?
Does he flip a coin ?
Of course he chooses who he thinks is more likely to benefit whether consciously or subconsciously

yid
“, you just repeated what i said.”

when I typed my comment yours wasn’t up yet

” whats the big deal?”

i’m not sure what you are referring to

But as to the big deal

here is a report from a frum emergency room physician

“I spent 24 of the last 36 in my ER.
It’s an absolute nightmare.
I personally intubated 3 patients in just under an hour.
We have over 400 patients admitted with coronavirus- 82 of them on ventilators.
To put things in perspective, My ER which is built to have about 80-100 patients, had 172 people ADMITTED with covid 19- crammed into spots, corners and crevices. And all of our ICU and step-down units together can usually handle 50 patients. We are managing ventilators in hallways.
In 22 years of medicine, I’ve never seen the staff look this tired- physically and emotionally drained. At least twice an hour we hear the call overhead that somebody upstairs is in cardiac arrest. This acutely exacerbates our distress. People that we were caring for are dead 12 hours later.
30 year olds. 50 year olds. 70 year olds. Nobody is spared.
We are at the breaking point .
We are out of space in our hospital.
We are out of space in our emergency room.
I was caring for a woman with an oxygen level at 64% and I had to have her sitting in a chair for an hour until I could find a stretcher.
Multiple doctors in the hospital are out sick with the virus.
I’m caring for patients in their homes and as long as their oxygen level is above 90% I’m trying to keep them from going to the hospital.”

I can attest to every word.

This is a very big deal

“Is our community okay with this?”

no of course not! who could be “ok” with any of this?
that said we and they don’t have a choice.

Please everybody keep doing your part, stay home as much as possible. I’ts hard to describe what is going on in NYC hospitals

Reb Eliezer
“סיג לחכמה שתיקה”

Lol, there is no chochma in this thread.

“That in it of itself would be suspicious to suddenly remove it all. ”

Lol! so let me get this straight. Removing video – suspicious
posting the video – suspicous (thats what tipped you off after all)

“Why is it so hard to believe that the virus was made in a lab?”

Its not at all. But based on what? the fact that disease experts who have studied pandemic and have had several conferences discussing potential pandemics discussed one?

“Theres also a reason why Bill Gates “conveniently” stepped down from Microsoft”

You lost me, whats the reason?

“so how did they “know” about the “next pandemic””

rightbright
becasue thats their job. They have been warning of it for years. There is a reason why the CDC had a pandemic office that Trumop got rid of since it hadnt been used. NOBODY in the medical/scientific community was surprised by this. Pandemics happen. IT wil happen again this is a certainty maybe in a year, a decade or a century but there will be another pandamic at some point

At some fool (who obviosuly isnt a conspiract theorist) will say “look ubiquitin was behind it he predicted it back in 2020 on ywn” .

question for you though ? why would they film this event and release it cant thaey use their powers to shut down the internet? or at least suppress the evidence if they can shut down the world economy why cant they shut down a video?

thanks

The truth.
” its a kulah to daven btzibur?!”

100%
It is a big kula to take risks wwith people’s lives for a minyan. I am not a posek, so I’m not telling you its assur. but now is the time to be machmir, try to be mehader in your avodas Hashem. The Mitzvas hayom is to protect life. Look for hiddurim in being as safe as you and they can be.

” its a ZECHUS not to daven btzibur?!”

no, its terrible not to daven betzibur. how this comment fit in

Theres a lot of confusion on this thread.

“Can Chometz be sold virtually? ”

No, a sale requires a kinyan, mot kinyanim require both parties (He might be able to do a chazaka on karka aquiring chometz with kinyan agav alone)

now, most of us don’t sell our chometz. We appoint the Rav to sell for us. That appointing of a Rav, pashtus DOES NOT require a kinyan, sure in most yeas we can be “mehader” to appoint the rav wit a kinyan, but as most poskim do’t require that , the Rav can be appointed virtually.

“Again, I’ve only asked questions; I’ve at no point implied anyone’s”

You must be very concerned that your comment was misunderstood , myself, Yserbius , mammale , GH and others so misunderstood your comments.

BTW, I was notified that I should expect to work in the emergency room, I am not an emergency room physician and have never trained as one. We are reaching that point.
This does not happen every flu season. (or nay flu season)

” Are you saying that if one year there were 50% more seasonal flu hospitalizations that normally that the US hospital system world collapse?”

I’m not a epidemiologist, but i’m fairly certain they all showed up within a short time period, yes I’m pretty sure. how many empty beds do you think hospitals keep lying around ?

The hospital I work in’s ICU is full. critically ill pts are bein managed on regular medical floors .

I’m curious what’s formulating your opinion, is there a single doctor that says its no worse than the flu? You claim to believe in daas Torah at thsi point, even Daas torah is no longer “poo pooing” the situation?

At any rate, how many deaths would you say, ok this is more than the flu ?

Bh. Let’s keep it that way!