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Dr. who? this is amazing!
How isn’t this getting more press?
I can’t believe there aren’t any topics on this already
” the “control group” is the total of people who were in high risk categories and presented with symptoms of Wuhan Disease, and were not treated with this mixture.”
Ok, I’m with you that is a control group.
On to the next parthere is the problem is his experimental group comparable to the control group ie are the 405 outpatients he treated, comparable to the “total of people who were in high risk categories and presented with symptoms of Wuhan Disease, and were not treated with this mixture”
or is there something different about them?As yo usay “So considered as scientific research this would be a bad study and would not prove anything.”
” However he is not conducting research, and doesn’t purport to be. For his purposes it’s sufficient, and the only conclusion one can draw is that it seems likely that his treatment is helping.”
and thats fine . He SHOULD do what he thinks is best for his patients. That is not the point I am discussing. The discussion started over why others don’t follow suit.
Again to sum up, at no point did I criticize Dr. Z, and no point did I say not to take HCQ (in fact I said the opposite at first “can’t hurt” , but I’m even less convinced now)
My involvment here was solely in response to “Does anyone understand why doctors don’t want to give hydroxychloroquine even though it is working throughout the country” (asked on the first thread on this topic)
And the answer is 1) many haven’t found it to be working. 2) the data that suggests it IS working is a ” bad study and would not prove anything.”“There was no control group at all.”
I don’t think you know what a control group is .
I took the first definition I found ” the standard to which comparisons are made in an experiment” Whenever you do an experiment, without a control group -you can’t compare anything. If I want to experiment: does bleach clean clothes? The first question would be compared to what? you can compare bleach to water, to doing nothing , to another brand of bleach or to dipping it in mud. but just asking “Does bleach clean clothes, not compared to anything else” is meaningless from an experimental standpoint.
with me so far?
You asked “if we gave anyone who asked for it hydroxychloroquine, and then the amount of deaths fell by 50% ”
When you say “deaths fell by 100%” compared to what? That is meaningless without comparing it to anything.Now what you mean (I assume) is compared to before they took the HCQ. So THERE is your control. You have “every single Homo Sapiens” serving as BOTH your experiment (once they take HCQ) AND your control (before they took it) Sure there are limitations in this study (and for argument’s sake I’ll assuem there is some sort of biological plauisibility to taking it one day and death rate droppign the next) . and I defer any calculations regarding the p value, to statisticians. but at first glance that seems compelling .
Dr.. Z has 405 patients who took HCQ and did well . compared to what? did they do better than they did bthe day before? (I don’t think thats what hes claiming) did they do better than another 405 people who didnt get HCQ? which ones There are tens of thousands who got didn’t get HCQ and did just as well. So Who are we comparing Dr. Z’ experimental group to
(the next question will be seeing if they are comparable, but first WHO are they being compared to?
when I say bleach cleans clothes, compared to what?“Was it found to be safe? ”
Safe is relative, it is safer than dying of malaria or winding up on dialysis from lupus. Not as safe as not taking it if you dont need it. Some place in between those two
“They have done this, but without zinc in the HOQ group.”
aaaaannnnd? don’t keep us all in suspense“I don’t think it is ethical to stand around and not intervene when people are getting very sick”
Beseder, if you think it works go for it.
In fact a physician is protected legally if a patient dies as a result of a reatment he/she thought would help against COVId summary from our malpractice insurance” The Secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services has declared, pursuant to the Public Health Service Act § 319F-3 (42 U.S.C. § 247d-6d), that a covered person’s activities related to medical countermeasures against COVID-19 will be immune from liability under Federal and State law.” (I’m not a lawyer double check with your lawyer for details)Again to remind you we are not discussing whterh HCQ works. We are not discussing whether it is reasonable to give it anyway and hope for the best. So if you are now saying “Ok it might not work, but what is thee to lose. ” Well I said that in my first post in this long repetitive thread
“Let’s not forget the zinc. People are giving HCQ without zinc and that defeats the purpose, ”
I have not seen it given without Zinc. that said, Zinc deficiency is quite rare, so I’m skeptical that it makes such a difference adding some more. But even less likely to cause harm, so why not?1) fun
2) to flesh out my own ideasThats it.
note: changing other’s mind is not on my list I doubt its on too many other’s here“For some reason many Establishment scientists have a hard time thinking out of the box”
I don;t know what “establishment scientists” And I’m not sure hwat you mean by “thinking outside of the box” Dr. Z didnt come up with this regimen, (he doesnt claim to have).
“Here’s a question to ask yourself, if we gave anyone who asked for it hydroxychloroquine, and then the amount of deaths fell by 50% would you say that it works or would you say that there’s still no evidence that it works because there was no control group etc. ?”
“anyone” is a lot of people. And there WOULD be a control group. you said “deaths fell by 50%” compared to what? whatever the answer to that question is THAT is the control.
In Dr. Z’s patients 405 got it and did well compared to whom? There are literally thousands and thousands of “high risk patients” who did not get HCQ and did just as well .
“I personally think that many ( not all) scientists/ doctors/ media who have decried hydroxychloroquine are now actually hoping that it doesn’t help coronavirus because they’d be embarrassed”
The reverse is true too. Even after there is increasing data that it doesn’t work people are sill insisting that it does . Its kind of strange actually.
“other than perhaps picking AOC as his “female” running mate”
she isn’t old enough.
Dong my best
“All these studies tested it on half dead patients.”
I’m not sure what “half dead” means. The patients IVe seen got it when they arrived int he ER most of them had fever and SOB.“The bottom line is that Dr. Zelenko only had about 2 deaths out of a thousand at-risk patients which is incredible.”
Where did you get a thousand, he says a few hundred? If his results are so impressive why the need to exagerate?“Considering the fact that none of his patients had heart attacks you might be wondering what the downside is”
not wondering , we know the downside. Its an old drug IVe used it for years in lupus nephritis“Says Dr Zelenko, he said that.”
You skipped the second question
What are they?“A control group is comparable to the studied group to see if there is a difference between the two.”
Correct. Key word is COMPARABLE. In your last post you wrote “, and the control group are the ones who have not yet developed any underlying medical conditions as yet” A group that has not yet developed underlying conditions, is NOT COMPARABLE to a group that has.“So you want other people with underlying conditions without corona virus to be given HOQ?”
No that would be to study safety, and has been done.A control in this case would be to take a similar group to the one getting HCQ and NOT giving HCQ.
Again the question we are trying to answer is does HCQ (with zinc) help or not. Just giving it doesnt tell us much. We want to know what would have happened if they didnt get it . Again keep in mind, The vas tvast majority of those who get it do fine without hCQ. Even the vast majority of those at risk do fine without HCQ Do MORE at risk patients do fine with HCQ than without? THAT is te question
To answer that just giving HCQ without a control doesnt tell us much if anything.
“What about the antibiotic and zinc, you want them to take that too?”
who?“Oh and of course the invasive intubation, why not?!”
Wait, what?Millhouse
very well said“The Wuhan Disease casualties are comparable to those of any heavy flu season”
I don’t understand this argument. you realize that that is 50,000 dead in ADDITION to the flu. If there was an out of control driver barreling down a road into a crowd of say 100 people. would you say who cares, thousands get kiled anyway every year
“It’s very doubtful whether that was ever a real problem,”
I don’t understand how that can be doubted. I rounded at several hospitals in the NYC area in all of them critically ill patients were being managed on regular floors by regular nurses.
It is hard to take anythign you say seriously you doubt reality.“What we should have done is isolate only the elderly and the particularly vulnerable”
The UK tried that. It didnt work so they quickly abandoned it, saving lives“or putting lights inside patients (which is absolutely an idea that IS being explored)”
source please“Everything the President has said has been on point”
Lol! thanks youve made my day. I thought you were being serious with your post. I’m not so sure anymore
He said he was being sarcastic. Was that on point too?Thats said , I’m not opposed to lifting any lockdowns per se. I don’t know enough about epidemiology to have an informed opinion. I do think they should make public what benchmark it is they were looking for to “reopen” Though I suspect that they don’t know, which I grant is a problem.
Joseph
“How’s sitting in a doctor’s waiting room with other patients waiting to see a doctor more essential than sitting in shul beseeching the Creator of the world?”you asked supermarket 1) cant live without and 2) don’t hang around there
you also asked parks 1) by defintion can spread out.now you have a new question doctor’s waiting rooms. Mine is closed I see most patients via teleconfrence (outside of hospital) Most of my colleagues have done the same. A few that dont/cant have reduced booking so no one is waiting near anyone else in a waiting room.
Abba
“Did any one stop driving then or now?”Amazing! so in spite of more people driving we REDUCED the number of deaths. I can hear the version of Abbas from 1970s “whats the point of seatbelts, & airbags big deal so 50,000 people died thats life what are we going to stop driving no reason t otry to minimize those deaths”
Joseph
“Someone remind me the logic of why supermarkets and parks (both sometimes packed as evidenced by recent photos) are okay to remain open but shuls are not.”
In addition to the reason already mentioned.
When shopping you (should) get in get your food and get out. The idea is not to sit there for a while next to other people. The odds of catching something from the brief moment passing another shopper is minimal (though not zero)If thats how you daven in shul, well you are doing it wrong.
Ready
“already naturally randomized”
Sorry. That’s not a thing .
“they all have various underlying medical conditions, all types”
says who? what are the conditions they have?” and the control group are the ones who have not yet developed any underlying medical conditions as yet”
thats not a control group.
A control group is comparable to the studied group to see if there is a difference between the two.You don’t seem to understand much about how studies are done, as your past few posts are full of very basic errors. you dont know what a control group is, you don’t understand randomization no0t to mention how studies avoid (Though not eliminate) chance.
I’d be happy to explain it to you. but you’d have to listen as I’m beginning to suspect you aren’t reading my posts since you are repeating lots of pints that have been addressed several times.
Ready now
“I am writing now, that, “chance”, can be said of any study, that is the point of aggregating numbers of people who all have very different susceptibilities into a result.”Yes! you are writing this now, but I said that on the first page. That is why ideally you randomize and blind the participants (and even the testers) Of course even this doesn’t eliminate chance. In every study there is a small element of chance (look up “p value” if you want more information). But Dr. Zelenko’s “study” is close to worthless, in terms of using it to extrapolate data. This is exactly what Ive been saying all along
“How do we get from a loack of kovod hatorah to braindeath?”
conversations often switch. Though this one isnt really about brain death. A poster got me excited about the existence of a psak, allegedly “famous,” by R’ Moshe “against using brain death to determine death”
Unfortunalty, it turns out he was lying, and no such psak exists famous or otherwise.
At least not by R’ Moshe Feinstein (which I guess he could claim he never meant, he can always claim he meant R’ Moshe Sherer, or R’ Moshe Honigkvetcher, and if anyone mistakenly assumed he meant R’ Moshe Feinstein, well we need better reading comprehension)This thread is a bit silly
Of course we COULD do without many things. doesnt neccesairly mean we should. Most of us went at least some time without any minyan. I dont think anyone would suggest” Wow we managed without minyan I guess we could do without it”
Similarly i’m a bit lost why because we survived without “Going to the parents/ in laws for Yomtov” is trying to add. I mean sure we survived without but a. did anyone really think otherwise and b. so what ?“The frum people who work in the following industries are delighted that Rabbonim speak out against what they do for parnassa,”
This is easily one of the strangest things posted on this forum
If people waste money on something silly. It doesn’t make it ok just becasue some frum people are making a parnassa out of some silliness. And if it isnt waste then it isnt. If you think 10,000 people (or however many it is ) traveling to lizhensk is a good thing say so, and perhaps explain why. but if it is a waste of money, it doesn’t become good because someone makes a buck of the sillinessOk B”h hospital seems to be past its peak things are on the downswing.
you?yserbius
I realize that you probably know this, but Joseph is lying “the letter from Rav Sherer that I submitted to this thread (see the above discussion and acknowledgement from ubiquitin) discussed Rav Moshe’s Psak on brain death.”
The letter mentioned does NOT discuss R’ Moshe’s Psak on Brain death (also worth noting Joseph initlaly said “Rav Moshe famously issued a Psak against using brain death to determine death.” for him to then claim he meant an unpublished psak alluded to in a letter by R’ Moshe Sherer, a letter which is not easy to find…. I mean to call that a stretch requires stretching the word stretch.)
The letter is R’ Sherer recalling a meeting with R’ Moshe in which he accused R’ Tendler of misrepresenting R’ Moshe’s opposition to A Brain death bill in NYS. The outcome of the meeting was a letter (written in 1976) R’ Moshe wrote to Assemblyman Miller (this is easy to find online). Tellingly R’ Msohe does NOT say in the say he rejects brain death, in fact in the letter to Assemblyman Miller he ENDORSES brain death “the sole criterion of death is the total cessation of spontaneous respiration” (He did however have strict criteria to how the testing is to be done)As to
“Can we have a vote to simply stop listening to @Joseph and responding to his trolling? ”
I like it its fun.“This whole business of looking good by the Goyim is completely secondary, if even that much.”
Unclear what “if even that much” means
It is important to “look good by the Goyim” *It has lately become fashionable in some circles to deny this for whatever reason.
However 1) definitions can change even if it technically isnt a “kiddush Hashem” it clearly is still a good thing
and 2) we find it called Kiddush Hashem by Risho0nim. See Rambam Gezeila 11:3 אֲבֵדַת עוֹבֵד עַכּוּ”ם מֻתֶּרֶת שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר “אֲבֵדַת אָחִיךָ”. וְהַמַּחֲזִירָהּ הֲרֵי זֶה עוֹבֵר עֲבֵרָה מִפְּנֵי שֶׁהוּא מַחֲזִיק יַד רִשְׁעֵי עוֹלָם. וְאִם הֶחֱזִירָהּ לְקַדֵּשׁ אֶת הַשֵּׁם כְּדֵי שֶׁיְּפָאֲרוּ אֶת יִשְׂרָאֵל וְיֵדְעוּ שֶׁהֵם בַּעֲלֵי אֱמוּנָה הֲרֵי
זֶה מְשֻׁבָּח*That said most of “kiddush Hashem” stories are idiotic, and if anything serve to highlight what a low opinion some people have of Heimish yidden. Wow amazing a Yid said good morning and didn’t slam the door in a person’s face what a Kiddush Hashem!
ready
“as you keep saying most patients infected with COVID 19 do not get sick or recove”This is a fact, that I was not aware was in dispute. Are you saying otherwise?
“But we are trying to avoid deaths so it would be better to intervene earlier if it will make a difference ”
100%!
but there is a critical caveat in that sentence see if you can find it..“Dr Zelenko had 2 deaths out of 1450 patients”
This is a very misleading claim.
He only gave his treatment to 450 inclduign those who didnt meet inclusion criteria is not typicly how study data is reported.” In the 405 high risk group a mortality of 5% would have been expected but 2 people died unfortunately, much less than the 20 expected.”
how do we know it wasn’t chance? How do we know it wasn’t something else about them?“From “Doctors warn coronavirus causing blood clots and sudden strokes in young healthy patients”:
Im not sure what these last 2 paragraphs are addingMamale
” I think you’re missing a critical point, or trying to oversimplify this. ”
It IS quite simple:
There is not enough data. period Dr Zelenko would probably agree. (though hed add what do we lose, which is a fair point as IVe said from the onset)“he key point being repeated in news articles is that most YOUNG & HEALTHY people will recover. Dr. Zelenko is only medicating those with pre-existing conditions, advanced age or both”
Most OF THEM recover too! Sadly not as many as the young and health y group. But I havent seen any data that >50% of those with pre-existing conditions, or advanced age who get infected succumb. Have you?“Yes it’s true only a clinical trial blah blah blah will give us a true picture”
That is all Ive been saying I’m so glad we agree.“I wasn’t paid to teach you elementary school English”
Sadly nobody was. I went to a chasidish elementary school… this is what happens .
“nor am I responsible for those lacking minimum language skills who misread a very basic posting.”
Of course you arent responsible. But most people would be bothered if their post was so misunderstood by several people, and would clarify. ESPECIALLY when asked to.“The title of the post …”
I wasnt just referring to just the title. In your OP there is no question. There is just an “innocent observation ” tha many posters, some who agreed and most who didnt interpreted differently than you claim you intended“Capish?(I could repost this in Yiddish if you think that might help you.
Dont worry. I got it 100%. No need to repost Yserbius got it too.
In fact most of us who have read your posts over the years got it.joseph
Lol!
You STILL won’t clarify what you meant.
and it wasn’t just me at least 4 posters understood you to be downplaying covid. I grant that in my rush to share my wisdom, I don;t proofread as I should, and that often results in difficult to understand postings.
but I’ll always clarify (and again and again if needed as history has shown often to a fault) . you wrote a post that (you claim) was misunderstood by multiple posters, and you won’t clarify, so you cant really fault me for a lack of reading comprehension.“I won’t make an issue over your writing, spelling, sentence structure and logical abilities.”
Thanks, plus that would be needlessly distracting .“There was never any “implication” whatsoever;”
Are you concerned that several posters so misunderstood your post ?
” merely questions. Nothing more and nothing less.”
There is no question in your OP. (unless it is an implied question in which case why not elaborate)“Regarding Rav Moshe’s Psak on brain death, last evening I posted a letter from Rav Moshe Sherer ztl on that”
Apologies, if you are referring to his letter 9/18/91, I’ve seen it. I thought you meant a psak from R’ Moshe Feinstein not R Moshe Sherer. My apologies, I guess that was poor reading comprehension on my part.Joseph
” a question is not a statement.”not quite true. A question can eb a statement or even an answer.
Eg Question. Should I trust Joseph on Cornovirus? Answer – Do we ever trust him on anything ?Eg #2 Question: Is coronovirus worse than flu?
Answer yes it is much worse becasue xyz
Questioner: but is it really worse ?The implication of the second question is “I dont believe you regarding xyz”
At any rate I never said “a question is not a statement” yoiu inferred that. Much liek the implication of your posts was that Covid was not that big a deal (as was pointed out several posters made this inference and you STILL havent clarified)
in your post you weren’t asking any question. Look at your OP and title no question there. you just implied “innocently” that the flu was worse than Coronovirus ” so far the annual epidemic of seasonal flu in the United States is proving much more devastating than the coronavirus.”
Then when posters pointed out why covid was worse yo udidnt say “thanks wow it is”
you asked other “questions” even though they had already been answered.When you were asked to clarify as clearly so many misunderstood your post, you stopped posting.
Here is another opportunity to clarify.
what were you trying to accomplish with your post, Lets start with op . you jotted some factoids about covid vs flu. what was the point of that? Just sharing some knowledge? you say you were “asking questions” I dont see a question in the OP what was the point of that thread?Joseph
In fact, I said nothing of that sort.”
You certainly did
See your multiple comments in this thread “coronavirus-versus-the-seasonal-flu” (link below)
Now granted you didnt type the words it is “just the flu” but you clearly tried (more than once) to highlight how it was no different than the flu. and when multiple posters there ( Yserbius , mammale , GH , myself) all (mis?) understood you as downplaying covid19 you didnt care to clarify
(as an aside this is a prime example of your trolling. you are right you never actually said covid was “just the flu” but you deliberatly tried to stir doubt, and consternation. Even when it was clear that you were being “misunderstood” you didnt bother to clarify that “of course its worse than the flu, yo ujust are trying to understand bla bla… thank you for your answers I see it is in fact worse” you doubled down just “asking questions” even once they were answered )
I’m curious if today you think Covid 19 is worse than the flu? “And there’s been 20,000 flu deaths so far this year in the United States. So as of now approximately 20,001 coronavirus deaths would be more than the number of flu deaths,”
“Rav Moshe famously issued a Psak against using brain death to determine death.”
where can this psak be found ?
I checked with R’ Dovid and R’ Reuvein they are not aware of it either It doesn’t appear in igros Moshe is it in a private stash of yours?“https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coronavirus-versus-the-seasonal-flu
ready now
“That is the point. ”
I don’t understand your point. The patients Ive seen were also on HCQ “before they got that stage”
As I made clear from the onset. I don’t initate treatment for COvid, im a consultant who gets called in if/wehn they develop kidney problems. Almost ALL the patients ive seen have been on HCQ + zinc as soon as they showed up to the ER with fever/SOB/hypoxia etcLet me try a new approach
A There are patients who get HCQ and get better
B There are patients who do not get HCQ and get better
C There are patients who get HCQ and do not get better
D There are patients who do not get HCQ and do not get betterI assume you agree that all 4 of the above patients exist. Please correct me if this assumption is incorrect.
Dr. Zelenko has seen mostly group A and as such is a strong proponent of it
Does that prove HCQ helps? Of course not If not for HCQ, what group would they have been in B or D ? Without more data how can you know. (keep in mind the vast vast vast majority of patients B”H fall in Group B)I have seen mostly those in group C does that prove HCQ doesnt help ? of course not. These are aptients who almost definitely would have been in group D
ready
“From an article on ywn today-‘ It seems that some otherwise improving patients experience rapid deterioration….”
We are going in circles. Yes Ive seen many many many such cases. but again vrtually ALL of the ones Ive seen HAD been on Hydroxychlorquine + zinc (and originally on azithromycin)
I have seen them go downhill, and fast in spite of the above. Dr Zelenko hasn’t Neither his experience nor mine puts the issue to rest.
We need studies. I’m not sure why you are having trouble with thisSyag
Agreed. no question the varying presentations is bizzare. And while GENERALLY younger/healthier tend to do better I have seen too many in their 40’s and younger with “no past medcial history” unfortunalty not doing well (in spite of HCQ + zinc)
The data from china obviosuly has to be taken with a heaping mound of salt, but I think the picture will become clearer in the coming months (though granted probably not compltly)Syag
“Ubiq – is the extensive kidney damage you have seen a side effect of the covid or is the virus attacking the kidneys?”
nobody seems to know for certain. (There was just a webinar by ASN – leading nephrology group in the US, just last night!)
The prevailing thought is it is a side effect due to patient being in shock, low flow state leading to ATN (Acute tubular necrosis, sort of the similar to a heart attack but of the kidneys) most biopsies and post mortems have supported this.
BUT
I (and all colleagues IVe spoken to) have seen many many patients who’s blood pressures were not that sick (ie not in shock,) but with rapidly failing kidneys far out of proportion to their overall presentation.
the SARS-CoV-2 is known to bind to a receptor found in the kidneys (Ace2) and some theorize that it may be directly attacking that way
Another theory is that these pats seem to be hypercoaguable, menaing have a high propensity to form blood clots . could they be forming tiny blood clots int he kidneys?Jersey Jew
“Dr Zelenko has success with almost 2,000 people. I’m sorry I don’t remember the exact number.”whats your source for that. Last I heard it was a few hundred. and on Dennis Prager recently he said he treated 1000 patients which included 2 groups the low risk and high risk only gave high risk so agian yo uhave a few hundred patients with mild syptoms (though at high risk)
where do you get the almost 2000 people ?
ready
” but you ubiq see the end game when it is almost, just almost too late, but still not quite too late.”
I dont know what end game you are referring to
start a charity campaign
ready now
“Ubiq, you wrote:
“Also, not only is Dr. Zelenko …” No I didnt write that ”However it is an excellent post and I agree with it
“He says the negative side effects are “theoretical in his experience.”
Then he needs more experience. (and raises questions about his supposed checking their EKG’s)” but look as though they might need hospitalization if he doesn’t treat them immediately.”
not sure what that means. This is a nonesenical claim and is one that you made up .He is treating those at high risk but mild symptoms who may have covid. period.
does this mean it works for all? – Of course not
does this mean it is safe for all – Of course notdoes this mean the benefit outweigh the risk? – Maybe not enough data
It happened so that people can further their favorite pet causes
for example:
I think it happened becaue Hashem had enough of klal Yisorel ignoring/downplaying the tremendous beracha that is the internet. so He forced us to stay indoors leading many to finaly partake in this tremendous gift . young and old men nad women it is beutiful to see so many appreciatign this beracha . Otzer hachochma, zoom shirum and classes the shivtei shiurim, Torah anytime yu torah amazing1
ready
So please what are they giving?
There are several concurrent studies going on so there is no set regimen
HCQ without antibiotics but with zinc?
Yes that is one group , (unless there is a specific indication for an anti biotic but azithromycin is no longer being used as a “default” treatment for covid 19)“Why don’t you contact Dr. Zelenco”
Because I dont have any question for him.“Yes, until the quote of yours that I rehashed above in this post, you have ignored zinc.”
I’m not sure what you mean. do you have a question about zinc that I overlooked? What have i ignored ? what about zinc ? Here is some information about zinc “Zinc is a chemical element with the symbol Zn and atomic number 30. Zinc is a slightly brittle metal at room temperature and has a blue-silvery appearance when oxidation is removed. It is the first element in group 12 of the periodic table” If there is any specific question that you have about zinc Id be happy to help if I can.“8-12 hours from Dr. Anthony Cardillo”
Fantastic, as I said that is not my experience, and DR Cardillo says not to give it to the patients Dr Zelenko is giving. Seems starnge that in a thread as to why not all doctors are lsitening to Dr Zelenko, to support listening you cite A Doctor who says not to do what he is doing. A bit confusing.“for recovery from Dr Zelenco,”
There was no recovery for Dr Zelenko these were well patients who didnt get sick. Now thats importnant and a great thing no doubt, but not “recovery”“You Ubiq said that your hospital is not medicating coronavirus patients.”
nope I never said that.
In fact I said the EXACT OPPOSITEFrom my FIRST POST “I haven’t found it to be working”
you asked: “Have you used it with the z-pack and zinc?”
I replied “Yep used it with everything can think of”“Please confirm what your hospital is doing for these patients”
when this thread first started almost all ddmitted patients were getting HCQ+zinc+ azithromycin
From my experience they were not doing well. Again, my experience is not at all generalize-able (much like Dr. Zelenkos) as I see the sickest patients, as I said in my first post
currently there are several trials going on including HCQ (yes with zinc but not with Azithromycin anymore unless superimposed bacterial infection is suspected), Remedesivir, convalescent plasma.“Those Dr Zelenko treated were technically all sick”
Again, they had minor symptoms so it depends what you mean by “sick”“Why wouldn’t he be doing that, he is a Dr with a brain.”
Because that is a lot of EKG’s Hes on the news so much Its hard ot see how he has time to evaluate all these patients plus get and read EKG’s for all of them“You are yet again avoiding the zinc!”
I dont know what you mean“Dr Zelenco had at the time several hundred patients on his “quick, fast””
If they need to get eKG’s and have them read, it isnt ” quick, fast”ready
Hold up you lost me
Lets rewindThis thread started with the OP asking “Dr Zelenko is having success wit hHCQ why isnt everyone using it?” (not a verbatim quote)
I replied that His data wasnt necessarily convincing nor applicable to all patients , and given that HCQ t oall is not without its downsides Not everyone is ready to follow him
With me so far?
Then you joined in with a bunch of comments not necessarily realtyed to the subject at hand. Yet for soem reason addressed to me
you introduced a study highlighting the risk of HCQ (as I said)
You cited a Doctor advising AGAINST giving HCQ to thhose not sick (agaisnt Dr. Zelenko)“The zinc is apparently essential, and you have also more or less side stepped that issue”
i’m not sure what you mean I havent side stepped anything. so give zinc gezunterheit“and patients should be carefully watched for heart problems, as well as screened beforehand.”
Is Dr. Zelenko doing thatAs an aside, my hospital stopped giving Azithromycin along with the HCQ and zinc given the high number of QT prolongations occurring
“So if more people would be more informed they would not be so against it.”
hopefully noone in a position to prescribe it is going to do so, or not do so, based on a post on ywnAnd again, as Ive said from the onset Im not “against it” let alone “so against it” I’m just poitning out to the lack of data.
You have done zero to chane that other than provide a studtyy highlighting the RISK of HCQ and a doctor advocating AGAINST giving it to the walking well“So if more people would be more informed ……. That is the point. Okay?”
sure but why are you addressing it to me?
“The Dr here in the latest video I have cited sees a cure in 8-12 hours”
Lol you do realize he says “we should really reserve it for people who are really sick” (at the 50 second mark) So thank you for finding yet ANOTHER doctor who disagrees with Dr. Z (the subject at hand)
I’m still not clear on what your point is.
for the10th ? 20th? time I never said not to take, it nor that it doesnt help with or without zinc. That isnt the subject of this thread“Please see a youtube video entitled:”
sure will,
but before I do, what will it show, what are your trying to prove?“PS in the Brazillian study, there was no zinc, and HOQ was not used”
YOU cited the study. I have no idea what you were trying to show, or what your point is.
“This thread wasn’t supposed to be about Gemtrias! can we please stay focused everyone?”
focused on what your OP included 3 debatable points ( 1) We know that the Jewish people had to be in Egyptian slavery under the rule of the pharaoh for 430 years. 2) It is known that our world must exist for 6000 years. This is the deadline for the coming of Moshiach and the onset of Liberation. 3) the last day of 5780 will come on September 18, 2020!)
and combined them to some nonsense
This is not much different than people using gemtaria for all sorts of nonsense (There are gmatrios showing both donald Trump and Barack Obama are moshiach)“while before then we never heard of such a word as pandemic. ”
Lol no YOU didnt (and Trump obviously) but the rest of us did
“Definitely not under Obama. ”
then you didnt follow the news H1N1 was a pandemic under Obama
“There is a difference between “warning” (hinting) about a pandemic before something happens and speculating or investigating an occurrence “AFTER” it happened.”
that contrived difference is EXACTLY what someone who spread covid19 would say. You are only further proving your culpability
“So…where were all the warnings, precautions, mock pandemic preparedness, meetings and gatherings, accusations and reactions during obamas term or leading up to it?”
There were plenty:
Warnings/ precautions :
Obama 2014
” “The funding we are asking for is needed to keep strengthening our capacity here at home sp we van respond to any future Ebola cases….. We were lucky with H1N1 that it did not prove to be more deadly…. They may and likely will come a time in which we have likely both an airborne disease that is deadly. And in order for us to deal with that effectively, we have to put in place an infrastructure – not just here at home but globally – that allows us to see it see it quickly, isolate it quickly, respond to it quickly.”Bush 11/1/05
(this whole transcript is worth a read)
Pandemic flu is another matter. Pandemic flu occurs when a new strain of influenza emerges that can be transmitted easily from person to person and for which there’s little or no natural immunity. Unlike seasonal flu, most people have not built up resistance to it. … At this moment there is no pandemic influenza in the United States or the world, but if history is our guide there’s reason to be concerned. In the last century, our country and the world have been hit by three influenza pandemics,… A global influenza pandemic that infects millions and lasts from one to three years could be far worse.
Scientists and doctors cannot tell us where or when the next pandemic will strike or how severe it’ll be, but most agree: At some point, we are likely to face another pandemic.mock pandemic preparedness, meetings and gatherings:
Atlantic Storm was held in 2005 it simulated a smallpox spread orchestrated by terrorists
Black ICE (Bioterrorism International Coordination Exercise) similar to the above held in 2007Anyway I’m not sure why we are even responding didnt we prove (using your “logic” ) that you were behind the covid19 outbreak?
rightwriter
I’m not sure if youre being serious but your posts are making less and less senseYou say “ya but not on this scale, those were more like outbreaks than pandemics.”
Fauci never said on what scale the pandemic would be he predicted there would be a pandemic, as there had been avery couple of years.
your whole “tayneh” was “Dr Fauci stated in Jan 2017 that during Trump’s administration there would be a pandemic. STRANGE.”
no not strange. Pandemics are not that rare. you say “but not on this scale” true, but he didnt predict the scale
“If in fact this was lab-made, many of those who “warned” us even years in advance surely had a hand in this.”
wait a minute…. you were one of the first I heard to say it was man- made. so if in fact it turns out to be man-made this PROVES you had a hand in it.
There is no other possible explanation. you are clearly behind all of this“but they were also giving two cardiotoxic antibiotics, ”
They give ceftriaxone and azithromycin
Azithromycin (like HCQ) is known to cause QT prolongation. Dr. Zelenko too gave Azithromycin“and they did not eliminate patients for having prior cardiac problems (for the purpose of the study).”
Neither did Dr. ZelenkoAt any rate this is way of topic.
If you like the study (that was halted early) go ahead and give low dose HCQ.I’m not interested in a discussion as to whether HCQ is efficaicous or not (since there isnt enough data)
The topic of this thread. Is solely why not everyone is following Dr. Zelenko’s reported success.Joseph
“He’d order all government agencies and personnel to refuse to interact or inform any information to Biden or his people anytime between election day and inauguration day, thereby leaving Biden blind to what the state of government or national security is upon assuming office.”And this is the man you support?
“Dr Fauci stated in Jan 2017 that during Trump’s administration there would be a pandemic. STRANGE.
not really. recent presidents faced a pandemic (depending how you define pandemic)
Obama Ebola (2013), MERS (2012), Swine flu (2009)
Bush SARS (2002)
Reagan HIV (1981- still ongoing)why would you think Trump would be different ?
“You can calculate a gematria by adding (if necessary) a kolel(1) or/and osiyos, the number of letters in the word.”
Or any number you want to try to get it to fit
Make up a reason why your adding it
+ 5 for chumshei torah
+ 37 for shem Hashem + stars in yosef’s dreamJust get it to fit whatever message your selling
ready now
“No not making any assumptions, just taking what the Dr said at face value, that he is sure the ones he treated were coronavirus.”
and thats fine. I’m not trying to dissuade you from following his advice. that is not the topic of this thread.
“Oh, by the way, have you noticed that the TB vaccine may also be useful?”
Yes. (“MAY” being the key word)“They are NOT using an untreated control group.”
The article refrences “Chloroquine diphosphate in two different dosages as adjunctive therapy of hospitalized patients with severe respiratory syndrome in the context of coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2) infection: Preliminary safety results of a randomized, double-blinded, phase IIb clinical trial (CloroCovid-19 Study)” They are studying the safety of High dose HCQ.
and here is the kicker…. they found it WAS NOT safe, and they halted the trial early!
Did you read the article??
That’s your proof that everybody should take HCQ??
how baffling“It is zinc that does the final knockout to the virus! Where is it?”
a. The Zinc wont make the HCQ safer
b. SO dont use HCQ alone, use it with ZINC. I’m not sure what your point isReady
“No, he gave the regimen to people who showed symptoms.”
Yes fever, cough these are vague symptoms that may or may not have been covid19.
“b) If any sick people would not have been given his regimen, some may have died, has v’sholom.”
How do we know that
This is precisely my point. How are you still repeat ing this, are you reading my comment s?
I addressed this so many times.“c) By not giving the regimen to sick people who later do “fine”, he is exposing them to death as he cannot foretell or predict who will become sicker and then die.”
See above
“d) You are asking for sick people to not be treated, for the sake of a “scientific study”, when it is known that the medication, in a life and death scenario, does on occasion work. That is not good, in the real world.”
I’m not asking for anything. I’m not sure where you got this from
DMB
“1000 random people with symptoms came to him.”
If they came to him, by definition it isnt random“That means everyone starts off “Walking well”.”
No this is incorrect.
Some get a fever, others start out with significant shortness of breath and hypoxia. There are increasing reports of anosmia (lack of smell) being the sole symptom still others have no symptoms at all.Look at it this way. some people find out they have it when they are crashing in the ER. Others find out when they have mild symtpoms and go to tget tested. Stil l others will find out in the future when they are found to have antibodies. (do you deny this?)
Are you really suggesting that these groups would all follow the same trajectory? Are you denying that there are different levels of severity at presentation.
I’m honestly not sure what you are saying, and Im beginning to suspect you arent so sure either.“The issue is that someone else reading your comments may think that there is not proven”
thats not an issue. Dr Zelenko would agree. It is not proven, his argument is what the harm, and I;m not sure I disagree.Your question was “Does anyone understand why doctors don’t want to give hydroxychloroquine…”
Ive answered it.
you think those doctors are wrong nad everybody should go to Zelenko, beseder he has been all over promoting himself don’t worry I’m not stopping anybody
I’m not sure why you are still hocking ah cheinik with incorrect statementsMamale
1. So if not the water maybe its the air. (I dont mean thsi literally I’m just pointing out ONE problem with generalizing his data)
2. “Even his naysayers don’t claim he’s not a good doctor.”
I never implied otherwise. nor am I a naysayer.“So you’d have to believe he’s clueless if you claim that because most patients weren’t tested they don’t have Corona”
I never claimed that. I said we don’t know“As a medical professional, do you need a test to show someone’s skin is pale and clammy, their eyes are jaundiced etc?”
Those are symptoms not a diagnosis. It would be pretty impressive if someone could see someone’s skin as pale and clammy and diagnose the organism that was causing sepsis“Why is Coronavirus different?”
Its not, and you (like many posters here) are missing the point. I’m not faulting him for treatign his patients as if they had corona with no test.
I am saying that (is part of the reason that ) data is therefore not generlizable3. He (by definition) is treating those wit hsymptoms so mild that they don’t need an ER . would fair just as well had they been sicker? may be maybe not (I’m not slaying they wouldn’t have I’m saying we don’t know )
“I also find this thread a bit comical,”
totally!I ma not saying anything remotely controversial . I am not sure how this is a debate.
I’m not criticizing the doctor, I am not saying it shouldn’t be prescribed (both of which I’d understand why people would get riled up)
All I am saying is why although one person may have had success, it isnt so cut and dryI’m honestly confused and slightly amused that this thread is causing so much angst.