ubiquitin

“I still have yet to see a rational reason why billing insurance would be bad. ”

reread the thread several have been given

now you are of course free to disagree (as many at the top of Hatzolah do, ) .

I am not saying it is a open and shut case. There are without question good tzedadim on both sides (I think all agree to this (keep in mind even the “branches” that have been billing, is all relatively recent for years even they were opposed) the question is which outweighs the other

anonymous
“Hospitals are nonprofits that bill insurance companies”

Exactly! and it would be a loss if Hatzolah started functioning like hospitals where the number one concern is the bottom line. Again, that isnt to say that this would be the worst thing in the world.

doomsday

please please stop hocking a chainek

“It’s like comparing people who smoke 5 packs a day vs people who smoke 4 packs a day and then saying
since both groups get cancer, that proves cigarettes don’t cause cancer.”

no, it would be like saying that smoking a fifth cigarette doesnt increase your risk.

The study shows that the MMR vaccine doesnt increase risk of autism.
Look at the very title:
“Autism Occurrence by MMR Vaccine Status Among US Children With Older Siblings With and Without Autism”

“I didn’t know they changed the vaccine inserts and hospital guides until now.”

I know, because you haven’t researched this topic a all. you just parrot silly talking points from pro-disease groups.
You don’t even know how to draw conclusions, look at ho w badly you misinterpreted the aforementioned MMR study

“The reason Vaccine Industry is bribing states to take away personal/religious exemptions ”

source please

“The point is, Recently Vaccinated children CAN be contagious”

source please (a current one)
“

unacceptable!

If our rabbonim want to abuse our children that is their right

“I’m happy to support them but obviously I would prefer if they could get the money from someone else.”

Exactly, I think most people are happy to support them
so are they going to cut back their fundraising?
Hatzalah isn’t struggling (please correct me if I’m wrong)
where is all this extra money going to go.

Money corrupts. Its the nature.

I’m not opposed to it per se, It isnt the worst thing if instead of the volunteer organization it once was it becomes a private for profit organization. Which of course isnt definite, but this is certainly a HUGE step in that direction.
I’m just explaining the tzad

akuperma
1. Source please. The Gemara does note Hashem criticizing the malachim for saying shirah. But we do in fact say shira during Pesach (albeit “half-Hallel”) I don’t know of an ysource where Hashem criticises us
(also why the dash in Hashem?)

2. ” Most of the “Greeks” were OTD Yidden.”
source please. The Greek army was defeated in many battles I am not aware of any source that says the Greek soldiers who fought at BeisTzur, Emaus , Beis Choron where “mostly” OTD yidden

” Note the many parts of the “al ha-Nissim” that only make sense if you assume they were Jews”
Yet we DO say Al Hanissim, celebrating said victory

3. Were periods end is subjective the war was won and an independent Jewish state was established, as the Rambam says “וגברו בני חשמונאי הכהנים הגדולים והרגום והושיעו ישראל מידם והעמידו מלך מן הכהנים וחזרה מלכות לישראל יתר על מאתים שנים עד החורבן השני”
now while it wasn’t fully independent for the full 200 years independence was achieved until 69 BCE when Pompey and the Romans were invited to mediate in the chashmonai civil war.

Though perhaps what you mean is that this “victory” was not one chazal wanted to glorify and this is probably true given that the chashmonai leadership after the first generation was questionable at best .
Though the main reason is probably anonymous Jew’s, the two arent necessarily contradictory.

The truth though is there are many aspects to all these things and different generations or even locales emphasize the part that speaks most to them.
The current “Chanukah theme” in my circles is how Chanukah celebrates Torah or more specifically Torah shel Bal Peh , this is’nt mentioned in the Gemara, nor Rishonim (as far as I’m aware I would generally appreciate an early source to this end)
Another example Shavuos went from “Chag Hakatzir” in the time of Tanach to Zman Matan toroseinu during the time of Chazal to Chag Hagevina in some Israel circles today. different times/cultures always put emphasis on different aspects (not that all are necessarily equally valid)
Yet another example Purim. Iv’e been to shmuzin contrasting how Purim is salvation of guf over chanuka’s spiritual salvation .(I assume we all have). I have also been to shmuzin emphasizing the “kimu vikiblu” message of Purim as a time to reaffirm a comitment to Torah. Is this a contradiction? Of course not!

Doomsday

please please please researc hthe silliness yo uwrite. You are emabarrsaing yourself, and by extension the entire pro-disease mevement.

You keep repeatign false claims that are easy to debunk, and that you would be embarrassed to post if you did 30 seconds of research.

you wrote
“1. Johns Hopkins Patient Guide warns the immunocompromised to “Avoid contact with children who are recently vaccinated,” and to “Tell friends and family who are sick, or have recently had a live vaccine (such as chicken pox, measles, rubella, intranasal influenza, polio or smallpox) not to visit”

A 30 second google search shows that this is simply not true. Search “john hopkins immunocompromised”
the first hit is a link to their guide that does not claim what you claim it says.
This has already been pointed out to you.

“2. Adults have contracted polio from recently vaccinated infants. A father from Staten Island ended up in a wheel chair after contracting polio while changing his daughter’s diaper. He received a 22.5 million dollar award in 2009.”
True, but misleading and irrelvant.
that was the oral polio vaccine that is no longer used.
Thanks to doctors (and obviosuly syata dishmaya) in spite of the evil work of anti-vaxxers (hence the name pro-diseasers) there has not been a single case in the US since the change.

LA mother

“Some rational arguments against them. ”

I’d love to, but I can’t find any

“Take an hour or two of your life. ”

Sadly i’ve taken more than that :, (

“Look at the videos and back up proofs of anti vax experts.”

Yep done that

“Rabbi Shmuel Kaminetsky called Vaccines “bad” and “A HOAX!”

while this position is anti-vaxx the one about schools is not.

and Again, that isn’t what we are discussing.
The question isnt what he holds, the question is from a religious standpoint

Doomsday
“Rav Shmuel shlitah said that Yeshivas/BY may not stop unvaccinated children from attending Yeshiva/BY.
You don’t consider that an anti-vax position?”

1) No.
2) That wasnt the question. The question was if he opposes vaccinations (from a religous standpoint) not if he says people should be free to choose, nor if he personally “believes” in vaccinations.

for example, I hate brussel sprouts. I refuse to allow my children to attend a school that serves brussel sprouts. Now this doesnt mean I am religiously opposed to brussel sprouts. The two are not synoymous.

“You cannot compare vaccines to wearing seatbelts:”
Ok I grant, that seatbelts are probably a bit more dangerous than vaccines, but the comparison still holds

“1. Is there a world wide movement claiming seatbelts are dangerous to children?”
Oh my friend, has being a pro-diseaser taught you nothing? It is a huge planet and there are all sorts of nutty beelifs out there

“2. Are there thousands of parents reporting that seatbelts caused harm to their child?”
Do you know how many people rachmana litzlan were wearing setbelts when they died? well over thousands
MY neighbor told me that shortly before her child was diagnosed with autism, she had buckled a dangerous seatbelt around him.

“3. Are there thousands of parents demanding to “opt out” of the seatbelt laws?”

why do what other parents what affect my rights? You said the government cant regulate what I do with my children

“4. Are these over 150 studies linking seatbelts to injury?”
We can make them!

“5. Do seatbelts contain known dangers like mercury or aluminum? or live viruses?”

Um yes!!!!! the buckle is often pure aluminum!
It was hard to find the exact ingredients but that just proves that big-auto is hiding the truth from us.

Doomsday
I have a a hypothetical question:

Suppose a child is born who is protected from the harmful effects of vaccines. I dont know he was born wearing a tin-foil hat and all the experts, I mean ALL including Humphreys, Wakefield, Mccarthy, PEACH moms all of them agree that THIS child was immune from vaccine harm.

furthermore he is at risk of having harm from measles, again I dont know because he has lungs or a brain.

do you think parents should vaccinate this kid?
Do you think the government should force/pressure them to do so?
What about society, should we pressure them ?

doomsday

“Remember Charlie Gard and Alfie Evans from the UK? ”
Yes. Quite well. Do you remember how they then banned bris milah?

“The UK Government decided “it was in the best interest” of these babies TO BE MURDERED! ”
I dont remember that part.

“They refused to allow the Peasants, I mean PARENTS, to take THEIR baby to another country for treatment – at their own expense! ”
So, its more complicated than that. and who is paying is not the be all end all of deciding whether a treatment is appropriate or not. At any rate there was no treatment available nor one that was being offered. There was a Dr at Columbia who initially said he would try but he later said that it was futile.
I dont really want to get to lost especially, since I’m not sure I agree with the government’s decision so I’m not really going to defend it.
however you seem a bit confused.
You are saying that
forcing vaccinations will lead to murdering children and banning bris milah.
You proof to this is England, where they DONT have mandatory vaccinations yet they murder babies (in your view) and dont ban bris milah.
I’m a bit lost.
furthermore. Please please please tell me you don’t support the right to inject chemotherapeutic agents full of toxins and horrible horrible radiation into children. I certainly hope you don’t mean to suggest to support the evil oncologists and the nefarious pharmaceutical companies

“Diabetes and many other diseases skyrocketed, the number of Anti-Vaxxers skyrocketed as well.”
how dod you know that the existence of anti-vaxxers didnt lead to these increased diseases.?
In fact. We proved they did cause the diseases. Since they both went up along a similar time frame that means one caused the other

“There are no ethical issues with a RETROSPECTIVE study, so why does the CDC refuse?”

I’m not sure what you mean. There are dozens of such studies .
do y u need my help finding them? (There are prospective studies done to, but I’m not aware of any RCT’s)

“Religious Rights – they didn’t persecute Christians who refused to service a Homosexual Wedding, Right?”
Ok, this one you are going to have to walk me through slowly. Please help me see the link between vaccines and homosexual weddings.
I have heard it said that vaccines cause homosexuality (with nice graphs showing the increase of both along the same trajectory, which in anti-vax land means one caused thee other) Is this your argument?

“Are you asking why should Orthodox Jews care if the Government violates the Religious Rights of others?”
no, i’m asking why are you pretending there are Jewish religous grounds to denying your children proper medical treatment

doomsday
“Provaxxers: If government has the right to decide what is “the best interests of the child” and NOT the Parents, then Government Can and WILL outlaw Bris Milah!

do yo ubeleive the government should be allowed to force parents to provide antibiotics to a child wit ha treatable infection, that would otherwise be fatal?
What about food, do you believe the government should be allowed to force parents to provide food to their children

“Many People object to vaccinations on RELIGIOUS GROUNDS.”
Are these religious grounds Jewish ones? If so can you provide any sources
(note i’m not asking if religious Jews object t vaccinations on boich sevara grounds, please don’t confuse the two)

“I recall seeing in Emes L’Yaakov that the original/initial minhag was gelt, ”

you recall correctly . Though he says gifts are ok too (unlike others he knew shava kesef kekesef)
Also see his Son R’ Ezreil Aurbach sefer Avnei Yashfeh chelek1.

“How this evolved into ipafs, bicycles, video games, etc. is beyond me ”
It isnt so complicated, I’m not sure why you are having a hard time at all understanding it.
1) Kids (young ones) are more excited by presents than money.
2) the goyim around us give gifts this time of year and there is a theme of “gift giving” that has spread. As the saying goes Vi es kristelt zich azoy men yidelt zich.
This is really isnt a hrad thing to understand, and I would question calling anyone a talmid chacham if they had any trouble understanding these 2 basic points, let alone if it being “beyond” you.

Now, as to whether point #2 would make it assur, THAt is a legitimate concern. I Again invite you to live up to your name and read the very short siman in YD.

“and a lot of other talmidei chachomim”
there is no talmid chacham that I am aware of who has trouble with this point. IT really is simple.
Yes accordign to the Gra it may be assur and that is obviosuly valid (not that he needs my haskama) but cmon learn a little, easy with the silliness .

“Shava kesef kekesef! Are you for real?”

ITs wild but its true! See the first mishan in Kidushin I was surprised too! how do we even know such a thing? Tosfos says it s a limud from eved ivri and nezek, the Ran says its a sevara imagine that?!!

“Next time i buy an item at Pomegranate for $2.50, i will hand the cashier a copy of that day’s issue of the anti semitic New York Times!”

Well, no because you cant acquire food wit h kesef nor shava kesef. but as for house or even a wife yo u can absolutely acquire them with a copy of that day’s issue of the anti semitic New York Times!
Of course she has to agree. and if the owner of pomegranate agrees to accept the NY times, then you can in fact pay for an item with it and acquire it with say hagbaah

“Why does doomsday keep responding to his/herself?”

Probably a nasty case of encephalitis, likely caused by preventable measles.

sairay
I’m sorry but your comments are making less and less sense .

“They were tested during pregnancy and surprise, the vaccine was either ineffective of worn off”
That is MORE of a reason to vaccinate not less. It isn’t 100% effective, correct. Thus by more people getting it and more people being protected there are less vectors to infect those who the vaccine was not effective for.

“Add to that number the twenty million undocumented immigrants ”

what makes you think they aren’t vaccinated? Most of them care about their children, which is often wh ythey came here in the first place. most are more intelligent than the pro-diseasers who claim to have researched the subject, yet as k the same old questions over and over and over as if they were the first to think about it.

sairay
“Any body who says anti vaxers shouldn’t have a choice is denying the very fundamental truth which is that vaccines are not 100% safe”

This does not follow. I used the example of seatbelts earlier. Seatbelts are not 100% safe. There are times that people have been harmed by seatblets (probably more than vaccines). Never the less, you are a fool if you dont wear a seatblet. adn I dont think you should have a choice whether to seatbelt your child.

More to the point though, Idont think you should have a choice to seatbelt MY child. Yes it is sad that as a result of your bad decision not to seatbelt I and sane individuals do not want out children riding in your car .

Please Please explain this to me, ok for arguments sake you have a right not to vaccinate or seatbelt your child, but why do yo u have the right to not seatbelt mine, or to send your unvaccinated child to our schools?

Kavod habriot
Ill keep this one short. 2 questions:

1) “Does he send down imperfect babies to the world that we have to mess around with them & drug them up right away”
does He send down imperfect wheat that yo uhave to mess around with and grind mix with water bake etc before eating, or do you eat wheat the way the One Above sent it?

2) “why in the world would I want to give that product to my children?”
Fine (for argument’s sake) so don’t, but why do we have to accept your kids in our schools?

Thanks

get it clear part 2 of 2
(cont)
” You trust the government with certainty.”
Um, no again.

“I trust Hashem – my body’s designer with certainty.”
No you don’t if you did you would follow the majority of poskim And besides did you eat today? Why? If Hashem designed a body that really needed nutrients He would have made a automatically replenishing system.

“Can you please understand that there’s another opinion out there by descent, well intentioned human beings?”
no this isnt an opinion issue. I thought your group was well-intentioned but perhaps misguided, but that beleif is no longer sustainable

“Can you understand that we never entered an agreement that I, who oppose vaccines will get vaccinated, to help protect you?”
No, and for arguments sake ok. so keep away from us. dont come to our shuls, schools, simchas stores etc. You WANT us to accept you but dont care to “help protect us” that isnt fair.

“I deserve basic human respect.”
Agreed, And I respectfully disagree, as your research is clearly lacking

“I don’t ask you to agree or follow my choices”.
but you do. Look, lets say you opposed seatbelt use. you read someplace about a person who was r”l trapped in a car due to seatbelt and couldnt escape. Do you think you have the right to not seatbelt your kids. More to the point, do you have the right to not seat-belt MY kids, if they are riding with you. IT may not be fair that no reasonable parent would let their kids in your car let kids go on trips with your kids etc. But that is our right. This is no different

“No one should be ruling who’s right.”
Not even scientists, with hard data?

“Our creator has given us bechira.”
another strange argument, does that mean I have a right to shoot people , and you should respect my right? Bechira isnt a blanket right to make wrong decisions.

“As true Torah Jews you should not want this freedom to be taken from anyone. ”
Just the opposite, rights are a foreign concept. We believe in responsibilities. yo u have a responsibility to give tzedaka, it isnt a right. Yo udo not have a right to say what you want , nor do yo u have a right to play games with your or your kid’s health.

“For if you fight and scream for this choice to be taken away from others you may one day discover that a choice you hold dear is being taken away from you.”
Then we will fight to keep that choice. What is right is right. You dont allow a wrong becuase of another right.

“Do you want to set the stage for forceful laws and regulations regarding your health or religion to be imposed on you?”
Health – yes of course as demonstrated above
Religion – Again the courts have already ruled that religion doesn’t always trump health. I am not sure what religion yo u practice. but Judaism requires vaccination, according to most poskim, and according to none does it oppose it. so don’t misuse my religion to protect you backwards idea.

Talmidchochom

Your post isn’t serious at all.
“all poskim and gedolim agree that Chanukah gelt is the way to go.”
source please?
No posek argues on shava kesef kekesef.
R’ Yaakov says explicitly that it is ok

“Why that is not a takeoff from the goyishe gift giving is beyond even me!”
it is.
Though live up to your screen name please, don’t be like Joseph pick up a YD look up siman 178 it is a short siman, read the Remah, see the maharik see the pischei Teshuva (read the Gra as well of course)

Laskern
don’t listen to Joseph, as always he is wrong. R’ Moshe does not say it is “It’s absolutely wrong. , while he does call it “Hevel” (in OC 1:104 (IIRC)) he does also call it a devar reshus. In other words not assur.

“Absolutely disgusting”

Ugh making poorer kids happy. feh what a goyish idea.

You think thats bad, my shul had a dinner to raise money. What is the world coming too.

Laskern
“Joseph, don’t need to belabor the obvious. ”

I worry, you are taking Joseph seriously.
He is parodying am haaratzim, he doesnt really mean it. Please don’t be taken in.
Look up hilchos chukas akum YD 178. See the Remah there, the Mahrik. Joseph has been taught this before

Joseph
If anyone needs an example of what I mean here it is :

“There has not been a single thing to date that documents or supports any identification of Trump as …, misogynist,”

now as I said I get saying that “although Trump is a misogynist he is good for Israel…” or .”… will appoint conservative justices…” but here you have someone saying that he isnt a misogynist. not only that but that “there has not been a single thing… to support that claim”

So either he never heard of the access hollywood tape (as many in our community haven’t as understandably it wasnt reported in our press)
Or they shut it out of their minds since he “proved to be an Oheiv Yisroel” so he cant be bad in any way
I cant think of any other explanation for that statement.

I was wondering what was taking your annual Christmas greeting so long this year.
Then I realized it is because Chankha is “early ” this year.

so there is still some time until your religion’s holiday hence your late greeting.

Happy holidays Joseph

“I do not understand the basis for the question. Frum jews with emunas Hashem should celebrate each and every day as Thanksgiving. Is not the very first thing a Gd fearing Jew does every morning is to recite Modeh Ani?????”

So in other words, of course its muttar to celebrate Thanksgiving!
I agree completely! though I think having a turkey everyday might be a bit much . Plus getting together with family that may live out of town isnt super practical everyday

“then why does one say hagomel after flying?”

I don’t understand this question.
Are you under the impression that you can’t put yourself in a situation that would require hagomel afterwards?

Laskern

If you grew rommaine in your backyard.
would you avoid it because of this CDC recommendation ?