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DY
Agree whole heartedly. Nonetheless this was (and perhaps still is though it may have changed in the past 2 years) the reality for a large and well known “chalav yisroel” company. Milking is often done at early hours and far from frum communities when the regular mashgiach couldnt make it he sent someone who wasn’t religous.
Joseph raises another point.
I dont know the specifics of the question he is reffering to. But am certain as learned as any poster here thinks Joseph may be nobody was actually asking a halachic question regardign putting somebody on a respirator.
We all have an inate “halachic sense” most of us know what questions can be answered by aybody what requires a more learned person and what requires a Gadol. The idea that every question (eg Bracha on apples) needs to be addressed to a Gadol or even Rav is foolsihness.
It is clear in most threads when more invvolved questions are asked rarely (if ever) is the pesron actually asking and looking for guidance, rather it is usually to stimulate conversation (or argument).
What level of pesak do you consider paskening?
Ifo somebody wants to know the beracha on apples should I avoid paskening?
applesauce?
eaten during meal? after meal?
At what level is it to complicated for the coffee room
Of course, answering my question(s) would be paskening too. so tread lightly
DY
Just Erev Yom kippur? I’m surprised True heimishe eat them on Hoshana Rabba and Purim too
147
Never. I borrowed one for my wedding and thats it.
The polish minhag is that a kittel is only worn by the elderly
Not wearing a kittel.
Growing up I thought it was made up or a mistake.
However it is in fact a common minhag among Polish Jewry (Ger chasidim for example)
CA
“That all depends …”
exactly! there are many variables. Thus when you asked in the op “while I don’t understand the rationale behind raising the minimum wage, doesn’t that make things more expensive? it’s basic economics” Isnt quite true, as there are many variables.
While most economists do believe as you indicated that it would raise prices, a) some disagree and b) even among those who agree that prices will go up, many still believe it is good for the economy
CA
“How about quarterly? If there is a sharp decrease in profits… “
There MAY not be a sharp decrease in profits. IF the minimum wage workers now have more money thus buying more burgers the producer can make more
DY
“A well lit parking lot will bring in more customers; higher labor costs for the same labor will not”
Same as to CA. PArt of the argument is that with more disposable income the minimum-wage earners will be buying more.
DY
“Flat expenses should not factor in.”
why not?
CA
“It’s something that’s low demand, hence any change in the price would considerably change demand for the worst”
I’m not sure what you are talking about? Fast food is low demand???
Look, I readily admit (as before) that I dont have definite answers. This has been looked at multiple times with economists divided on the issue.
As far as increasing prices, there is somewhat less of a divide , that prices would increase (Though still without unanimity) However, with many arguing that it still is better for the economy.
See for example “The Effect of the Minimum Wage on Prices” by a Sara Lemos which provides arguments for both sides (though does conclude that “a small increase” would likely result.
My only point is that it is far from certain
DY
“It would depend on controlling for other factors.”
Exactly my point. Its not like Mcdonalds sits down (daily? Weekly?) and adds up the cost of a burger say meat + cheese + letuce + labor + marketing etc etc + profit = price of burger. There are other factors at play most importantly supply and demand which are not (directly) dependent on the cost of providing the burger
“Is higher cost generally leading to higher prices really debatable?”
Depends what you mean by “cost” it cost more for a supermarket to maintain a parking lot keeping it lit, shoveled etc than the store who doesnt have one. Yet that cost is easily offset by attracting more customers. It doesnt mean automatically mean that the prices at Supermarket A (with parking lot) are more expensive than Supermarket B (without).
CA
It isnt your hypothesis it is something leading economists have debated for decades.
Would it undermine your hypothesis if I started listing stores that did not raise their prices?
This is a question for your father. Different people have vastly different minhagim about this.
If you cant ask your father, try people from your family’s geographical region or a historian
Avram
“How is it a fire hazard if the doors are locked on the outside (to prevent latecomers from disrupting the leining) but are still easily accessible for exit?”
Its not.(Though still seems needlessly extreme)
“Do you lock your front door at home before going to bed?”
Yes (usually)
mik5
“You have to apply your mind to hear every word from the mouth of the baal korei, not just hear it “in the background” while deeply engrossed in your own thoughts. Otherwise, it’s no good.”
source?
Dozing off is obviously irrelevant since while asleep he doesnt hear (Arguably)
“On two occasions, I personally witnessed the grandson… “
Mazel tov, on more than two occasions I have seen Gedolim not resort to fire hazards and who kept the minhag of banging by haman alive I assure you they were yotzei too
mik5
“if you took out your phone and texted someone during krias hamegillah, would you still be yotzi?”
Why not? If he is sure he heard every word, why wouldnt he be yotzei?
if you took out your phone and texted someone during tekias shofar, would you still be yotzi? (yes I know texting is assur on yom tov or any day according to some that isnt the point of this thread)
Who is the “we are” most people I know are noheg from Rosh chodesh.
And even those who do have the minhag matzah meal is often not included since it cant be used for mitzvah.
Of course if by “we are” you meant your family has this hanhaga, ask them.
Thanks Avi K.
So neither of us know.
I’m not sure then why you’ve been giving me a hard time.
“I suggest that you ask your LOR”
Profound!
Though he didn’t know either 🙁
Avi K
a. what DY said
b. Ok wise guy, so can I ask A kaifeng Jew to do melacha under extreme circumstances, when it is tzoreich mitzvah, hefsed meruba or choleh sheain bo skeana?
If you do not know. Just say so, it isnt a sign of weakness it is a sign of strength
Avi
I freely admit I don’t know much about this topic.
“Therefor, they must undergo giur without a beracha “
Is that true? Either for Ethiopians or the Kaifeng community
You shared some cute vertelach. but didn’t quite answer my question.
If I come across a “Kaifeng Jew” who hasnyt undergone giur yet. Is there anyone who says I cant sell him my chametz before PEsach ask him to do melacha on Shabbos etc
Avi k
Why “giur Lechumra”
If they don’t undergo giur is there any reason not to ask them to do melacha on Shabbos (when amira lakum is allowed)? Are they considred Jewsih in any sense?
CURIOSITY
Here http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/what-to-do-with-spilled-havdalah-wine#post-602067
Now you have a written source!
Joseph
“yehuda, what happened to the descendent’s of the tens of thousands of female marranos and Christian convertees from the Sephardic population during the Spanish Inquisition? “
After one generation half of them were Jewish (i.e. their daughters children), after another again half followed by half followed by half etc etc.
Obviously some are unknowingly Jewish today if their mother’s mother’s mother etc… was Jewish . But I’m not sure how it can be that many
Jospeh
source? The numbers i came across are 150,000 – 200,000 left 25,000 – 50,000 baptized. Benzion Netanyahu who is an expert on the History of Jews in Spain has similar numbers
In 1933 Agudas Harabonim allowed it
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=12060&st=&pgnum=19
“So half of modern Spain having Jewish neshamos is fine with you”
No it isnt “fine”
Apporoximatly 50,000 jews were baptized during the inquisition out of a population of 1,000,000. Assuming they all mixed freely, if a person’s great-great -great grandmoteher was one of those 25,000 women (assuming 50/50 split) he is Jewish if it is one of the 475,000 non-jewish women he is not Jewish. No other Ancestor matters other than that one mother’s mother’s mother’ mother etc going back aproximatly 17 generations. 2 to the power of 17 is 131,072 out of all those acestors only one matters! For that one crucial ancestor there is a approx 5% chance that they were Jewsih (25/475).
Fell free to correct my math sicne this is quickly off the top of my head
I dont see how you get to half of spain’s population being Jewish.
“Regarding responding to every question, I dont have time to address every nuance.”
You havent addressed any!
oh shoot joseph that sounded interesting.
Would you mind trying again. perhaps worded in a less “objectionable” way so it gets through?
If it is a real question and you arent up to your usual trolling, There is a decent piece freely available online with some relevent marei mekomos have a look
“The Division of Scarce Resources and Triage in Halacha”
newbee
“Im not sure what to say, I just dont find these things meaningful.”
I’m not sure why you dont find halachcly Jewish meaningful. Chazal say Af al pi shechatu Yisroel hu. Why would you disagree and say “He isnt Jewish” (in any meaningful way)?
“I dont put a big emphasis “
Nobody here is saying to put a big emphasis. Just acknowledge like Chazal do. That he is Jewish even if a sinner!
“Regarding other people in other countries having a Jewish neshama… I am not sure why that would bother you or others. “
Becasue it is counter factual and illogical.
The thing that bother me is that you dont even respond to questions.
Eg can you buy chametz from a Goy after Pesach? You never attempted to reply to this simple direct question on your position
Or better yet can you sell a goy your chametz (this would be de’oraysa if he was actually a yid)
newbee
Nobody is saying you should somebody’s picture becasue he is Jewish. Nobody here is saying you should vote for somebody becasue he is Jewish these are straw-men that you have made up.
What we are arguing on is two statments that you made which are both factually and logically wrong.:
1) “Much of India, Spain, Africa, the US, all of Europe- im sure many of these people are techinically Jewish”
and (to a greater extent)
2) “Because he is not Jewish in any meaningful way.”
Several direct questions challenging one or both of those incorrect assertions have been asked and you have thus far not even attempted to answer. (specificly: why you dont consider halachicly Jewsih “meaningful”? whether you can eat Bernie Sander’s Chametz after PEsach? Wether you can eat a Goy’s Chametz after PEsach? If Amira L’akum can ever be utilized? differences between Sander’s and other sregarding conversion, MArriage etc etc etc.)
All you say is “I wont be posting his photo on my wall now.”
That sit the issue. I dppnt think anybody here has a picture of Sanders. Johnson or Einstein for that matter, on their walls.
As for your subtitle. I’m not clear why you oppose it “If Bernie Sanders is Jewish, I’m a Christmas Tree” Well he is (even if you, in oposition to chazal, don’t consider it “meaningful”) Which of course makes you ” a Christmas Tree” Either be proud and embrace what you are, or admit you were mistaken.
BTW mods, I never thanked you for my subtitle. It nice not to have the generic “member” i feel more a part of this community, so thank you.
I know nobody said otherwise, but to ensure no confusion please note that Terri Schiavo wasnt brain dead (neither were Karen Quinlan and Nancy Cruzan)
newbee
“Ha yea, I will charge interest to a non-Jew and Bernie Sanders alike. “
I don’t think that is halachicly sound.
Though I cant help but notice you didn’t answer DY’s question. Regarding amira lakum. I’m not sure why you say it isn’t relevant
You also didn’t answer Sam’s regarding marrying a ger.
I have some more: Would you eat Bernie Sander’s chametz after PEsach? What about John Smith’s?
DY
From the American academy of neurology (a national as opposed to local source)
Evidence-based guideline update: Determining brain death in adults
Checklist for determination of brain death
Prerequisites (all must be checked)
? Coma, irreversible and cause known
? Neuroimaging explains coma
? CNS depressant drug effect absent (if indicated toxicology screen; if barbiturates given, serum level < 10 ?g/mL)
? No evidence of residual paralytics (electrical stimulation if paralytics used).
? Absence of severe acid-base, electrolyte, endocrine abnormality
? Systolic blood pressure ? 100 mm Hg
? NO SPONTANEOUS RESPIRATIONS [emphasis added)
[As for details:]
IX.Apnea.
?
Absence of a breathing drive.
Absence of a breathing drive is tested with a CO2 challenge. Documentation of an increase in Paco2 above normal levels is typical practice. It requires preparation before the test.
…
Procedure:
…
?
Preoxygenate for at least 10 minutes with 100% oxygen to a Pao2 >200 mm Hg.
…
?
Disconnect the patient from the ventilator.
?
Preserve oxygenation ….
?
…
?
If no respiratory drive is observed, repeat blood gas (Pao2, Paco2, pH, bicarbonate, base excess) after approximately 8 minutes.
?
If respiratory movements are absent and arterial Pco2 is ?60 mm Hg …the apnea test result is positive (i.e., supports the clinical diagnosis of brain death).
…
DY
It is accurate
From NYS dept of health website guidleines for determining brain death.
(i cut some parts to cut it for size and remove some of the technical details, for more details it is freely available on google and of course I would be happy to elaborate.)
Step 4: Apnea Test
Generally, the apnea test is the final step in the determination of brain death, and is performed after establishing the irreversibility and unresponsiveness of coma, and the absence of brainstem reflexes.
…
the physician should conduct the apnea test as follows:
?…
charlie
The definition of death by chazal doesnt really matter.
The question is indicator. Namely does heartbeat signify life? Yoma 85a can be understood that way. Alternativly even the absence of breathing is only an indicator of death if he “mutal kaeven” (Rashi) i.e. obviously a polio sufferer in an iron lung isnt dead becasue of absence of spontaneus breathing. The question is if a heartbeat in someobody who is not breathing precludes him from being dead(as in a brain-dead patient) since he isnt “mutal kaeven” I beleive this was R’ Elyashiv’s main objection to brain-death.
The Chacham Tzvi has a teshuva that is quite relevent in which he clearly uses the heart as the main indicator of death. However as you point out, he is basing on the mistaken view that the heart is a respiratory organ that pumps air throughout the body. Even if a mistaken assumption however that doesnt neccesary matter (according to brain death opponeents).
what I do fintd surprising about brian -death opponents is how excited they get when somebody reportedly “recovers” from brain-death. As in this thread. Never mind the fact that these reports are never well documented and are allways based on hearsay, usually ciopy/pasted across various media outlets.
Even if it did happen once in a while (it hasnt ever, people survive cardiac-death literally daily. Even wihtough the “lazararus phenomenon” Health mentioned. Every cardiac arrest that survives CPR, every Heart transplant, and Every CABG all had a stopped heart which subsequently restarts.
Is Cardiac death then not death?
SDD
Thanks that was thorough. Thouhgh Meh, this isnt an English course. I think my point was easliy understood and if not I’de be happy to elaborate if someone would like
“given that your posts usually adhere to the laws of English. “
Thanks! Though I find that extemly surprising. I often type quickly or from my phone, and my posts are often full of typos, punctuation errors etc.
SDD
I’m sorry I have no idea what you are trying to say
I’m sorry SDD
what?
“Who cares about ethnic Judaism its your belief and being mekayem mitzvos that matter.”
The Ribono shel olam does!
af al pi shechatu yisroel hu
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=24&daf=44&format=pdf
You make a lot of strange assumptions in the rest of your post
I’m not saying to vote for him because he is Jewish (or for any other reason). Just dont make foolish assumptions and argue with chazal please.
Incidentally why do people get a kick out of these obviously silly outlandish statements most holocaust victims werent Jewish, “Much of India, Spain, Africa, the US, all of Europe” are probably Jewish (ALL of Europe? Really?)
“lol I’ve never seen a website where strangers change user’s usernames without their knowledge or consent.”
If I had a vote your subtlte would be “I’m a christmas tree”
Mammale (and anyone else) I have a thought experiment for you
Imagine the following two scenarios:
1) Reuvein is quite sick and one by one his organs are failing. Luckily for him Shimon is compatible and Reuvein recieves Shimon’s pancreas, kidney, lung, intestine and heart (none of this is sience fiction, though all to one patient hasnt quite happned). Obviously Reuvein’s Posek recognises brin death otherwise he would be inconsitent if he allowed him to recieve the Heart. Well unfortunalty Reuvein gets badly burned and undergoes a face and hand transplant as well. (Still no science fiction) Reuvein now looks like Shimon, has Shimon’s fingerprints and the bulk of his internal organs where once Shimon’s. Who is Reuvein? Whose wife should eh go home too Mrs. Reuvein or Mrs. Shimon?
2) Instead of giving Reuvein all of Shimon’s organs. The Doctors figure lets just remove Reuvein’s functioning brain and put it in Shimon’s body (Now this is science fiction, but who knows…)”reuvein” now wakes up and he too has Shimon’s fingerprints and the bulk of his internal organs where once Shimon’s. Who is Reuvein? Whose wife should he go home too Mrs. Reuvein or Mrs. Shimon?
Now granted this doesnt prove anything. And all the “thought excercises” in the world are irrelevent to since only halacha matters.
But I think all would agree that the Brain is the seat of personhood and since Shimon’s brian was reomved in the second case although the rest of his organs including heart are still functioing. shimon has died and Mrs Reuvein Should get used to being married to a guy who looks like Shimon
thoughts?
Mamale
“the hospital is now saying something else entirely, which is a little suspect. MLive quoting the medical director “…but said the nature of her injuries and the efforts to sustain her life, led doctors to discuss the possibility that she may become brain dead. But he said Abigail is not brain dead.” this while the mom is mentioning her daughter squeezing her hand as “breathtaking”. Go figure out whom to believe.”
Not suspect at all. It happens all the time. People often use “brain dead” to refer to any brain damage, coma, PVS etc although they are different. It is entirely plausible the mother was told “she is severly brain damaged and we will initiate testing to determine if she is dead” and interpreted that as she is brain dead” and that’s the story she shared with the media. I have seen similar occurrences many many times (minus the media part)
“My documented example was not to illustrate that true brain death is reversible, but that despite knowing the patient failed the breathing test”
The patient didn’t fail in that example! The neurosurgeon should be sued for malpractice and the surgeon tried for murder. That in no way affects the majority of patients who are correctly diagnosed as “brain dead” much like the few who are diagnosed as “regular dead” that are misdiagnioesd doesn’t lead to rejection of “cardiac death” So much so that the Chasam sofer doesn’t even require a waiting period even though misdiagnosed “cardiac death” was a very real concern in his day (more so than today)
“I don’t think he’s alone with his agenda, and it must be addressed and fought or life will indeed become dispensable and we’ll only have ourselves to blame.”
Agreed!
Well said APY
BTW from a NBC news story “Doctors first thought Abigail could become brain-dead and had started planning to harvest her organs for donation when she squeezed her mother’s hand. Her mother, Vicki Kopf, described the moment as “breathtaking.” “
Not quite the same as reported elsewhere
dovrosenbaum
What about ikvasa demishicha why does that pronouncement which many many gedolim have made take any less ruach hakodesh than “reshis tzemichas geulaseinu.
Also is there a difference between “”reshis tzemichas geulaseinu.” and “aschalta degeulah”?
“http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20799&st=&pgnum=9
Mamale
As mentioned, I have met more than one patient’s family member (most recently last week) who said they were told a patient was “brain dead” when nobody had told them that. And brain death is never “shortly declared” at least not in NY. Almost every hospital has a time period to allow for possible recovery prior to being delared brain death. (Though again, this may differ in Michigan, and I suppose “shortly” is relative)
MAMAel lote of comments I’ll do my best.
However first and foremost, you amde the mistake many do and I reiterated several times not to make.
You said regarding the brain-dead individual “…and he is actually breathing, his heart still pumping — albeit assisted mechanically -…”
No ! while his heart is still pumping he is not still breathing. His chest may rise from the ventilator blowing in and out but so would a football if connected to a ventilator. I mentioned this a few times. A brain dead person, by definfiion is not breathing. This is key because according to R’ Moshe’s Family members including R’ Dovid, R’ Shabsi Rappaport and of course R’ Tendler this is why R’ Moshe recognised brain death as death.
Granted he heart is till beatig but there are cases with a heart beat where les man dipalug the person is dead eg decapitation. Which ARGUABLY can apply to a brain dead person. A body;s reaction to pain while [perhaps disconcerting is not an idicator of life even according to those who reject brain death.
“This is the part about higher brain activity after no basic heart stem functions:…”
Wny are brain waves a sign of life? A heart that stops is often declared dead even with an organized rhythm. It isnt like TV where pt flatlines. Quite often you wouldnt tell from the heart monitor that the heart stopped. The patient lacks a pulse and if DNR or after trying to revive but not succeeding the patient is declared dead with a heart rythm on the monitor.
“And this is the documented case I mentioned regarding spontaneous breathing, also from the same article:…The only possible caveat is that this author later went on to write a book about this subject, so some considered it a way to drum up business — although his evidence seems sound”
The caveat is sound. And the author left out a crucial part of the article. The article he cited is “A matter of life and death” and in that case “…upon subsequent review of the patient’s chart the anestesiologist had learned that the donor had gasped at the end of the apnea test…” The authro of the article left out the part that changed the entire story.!! There is still no documented case of someone actualy meeting criteria for brain death and recovering.
I skimmed your article by James Leonard PArk. You seem to be making a slippery slope arguemnt. Please correct me if I’m wrong. I’m not much a fan of slippery slope arguments. We are discussing brain death which some poskim say is dad either because like decapitated or because not breathing. Neither of those apply to Coma, PVS or Alzheimers. So bringing them up just confuses the issue there are alll sorts of nuts out there I dont think every meshugana opinion should be used to shape policy becasue of a slippery slope.
“our mention of the Chasam Sofer’s ruling about not waiting after death for burial was informative, but quite ironic”
Fair, though the bigger irony is he wanted death to be declared sooner than was in vogue now it used for the opposite. Also almost nobody says kavod hames is an issue. Most poskim allow transplants from a dead patient.
” don’t know exactly what the doctors were doing or at which point they give next of kin the boot. Most likely she was saying her goodbyes before traumatic aspects begin,”
More likely is, it is hyperbole to make the story more exciting. Do you believe the media doesnt do that?
BTW Mamale
Keep in mind I am not reffering to wrongful diagnoses of brain death. I.e say a person has cornela reflex or breathes/gasps during the apnea test yet is declared brain dead incorrectly either due to incompetnace or negligence on the declaring physician’s part.
while important, those limited cases are only tangentially related to the subject at hand.
I am reffering to when protocol IS followed and a patient is declared brain dead based on exisitng criteria/guidleines and subsequently recovers.
As another aside.
Dont forget people recover from “cardiac death” all the time.
In fact many teshuvas on the subject such as The Chasam Sofer’s are regarding the opposite situation. Where the in vogue thing was to wait a few days prior to burial since pt’s occasionaly awoke after being declared dead sometimes in a coffin or even underground (“saved by the bell”. governments wanted to ahve waiting periods of a few days to ensure the pt wouldnt recover from “cardiac death” To which the Chsam Sofer insisted if a person has a heart beat and/or bretahing he is alive otherwise dead and no need to wait
Mamale
“However, if medical personnel keep on making the same mistake, something is fishy”
There are no documented cases of a perosn being declared brain dead and “Waking up” There are severla reports in lay media (Zack dunlop, and Gloria Cruz come to mind) However as I said it is hard to know waht actually was “declared” Just last week I told a pateint’s family member that their loved one was in a cooma and unlikely to recover After discussing it extensivly and the family member seemed to have gotten it another family member later said “so you told my siter Dad is brain dead” He was not. IF the media where to ask what I said persumably she’d have said the same. Sadly the patient didnt recover but if He had this would be another “survival after brain death” when in fact the patient was NEVER declared brain dead.
If there where a documented case the Physician documenting it would achieve instant fame. Journals would fight over the case report it would be a landmark report. There is no reason if such a case existed it wouldne be published. outside of Tabaloids and news sources that generally repeat each other
“Here a diagnosis must be made within hours (or risk organ death which is the whole point)”
Many hospitals requitre repeat testing 24 hours apart (though this is becoming less common)
“Contrary to what you are saying, there was a documented case of organs being harvested …”
I dont have access. Though I think i have it saved at home. I dont rmeeber what it said. So i’ll have to get back on specifics.
However by definition, And again I cant repeat it enough since it is a mistake made by many including in halachic pieces on the subject. A brian dead person cant breathe
“It’s also troubling that they can react to the pain,”
I’m not sure why it is troubling. Have you seen a chicken after shechted it reacts to pain too yet is dead lekulay alma! (I dont chas veshalom mean to compare peopel tpo chickens, just give a real life physiologic example that you and others may be familiar with please dont misunderstand my comparison)
“(The logic is that if one’s brain stem controlling breathing etc. isn’t functioning the higher part of the brain surely isn’t, although prior studies have shown this to be wrong in a percentage of cases.)”
Do they cite any such studies?
“Finally each body’s organs can be valued at over $2 million,”
Thats an underestimate. Ask the recipents what they are worth to them…