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Well said APY
BTW from a NBC news story “Doctors first thought Abigail could become brain-dead and had started planning to harvest her organs for donation when she squeezed her mother’s hand. Her mother, Vicki Kopf, described the moment as “breathtaking.” “
Not quite the same as reported elsewhere
dovrosenbaum
What about ikvasa demishicha why does that pronouncement which many many gedolim have made take any less ruach hakodesh than “reshis tzemichas geulaseinu.
Also is there a difference between “”reshis tzemichas geulaseinu.” and “aschalta degeulah”?
“http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20799&st=&pgnum=9
Mamale
As mentioned, I have met more than one patient’s family member (most recently last week) who said they were told a patient was “brain dead” when nobody had told them that. And brain death is never “shortly declared” at least not in NY. Almost every hospital has a time period to allow for possible recovery prior to being delared brain death. (Though again, this may differ in Michigan, and I suppose “shortly” is relative)
MAMAel lote of comments I’ll do my best.
However first and foremost, you amde the mistake many do and I reiterated several times not to make.
You said regarding the brain-dead individual “…and he is actually breathing, his heart still pumping — albeit assisted mechanically -…”
No ! while his heart is still pumping he is not still breathing. His chest may rise from the ventilator blowing in and out but so would a football if connected to a ventilator. I mentioned this a few times. A brain dead person, by definfiion is not breathing. This is key because according to R’ Moshe’s Family members including R’ Dovid, R’ Shabsi Rappaport and of course R’ Tendler this is why R’ Moshe recognised brain death as death.
Granted he heart is till beatig but there are cases with a heart beat where les man dipalug the person is dead eg decapitation. Which ARGUABLY can apply to a brain dead person. A body;s reaction to pain while [perhaps disconcerting is not an idicator of life even according to those who reject brain death.
“This is the part about higher brain activity after no basic heart stem functions:…”
Wny are brain waves a sign of life? A heart that stops is often declared dead even with an organized rhythm. It isnt like TV where pt flatlines. Quite often you wouldnt tell from the heart monitor that the heart stopped. The patient lacks a pulse and if DNR or after trying to revive but not succeeding the patient is declared dead with a heart rythm on the monitor.
“And this is the documented case I mentioned regarding spontaneous breathing, also from the same article:…The only possible caveat is that this author later went on to write a book about this subject, so some considered it a way to drum up business — although his evidence seems sound”
The caveat is sound. And the author left out a crucial part of the article. The article he cited is “A matter of life and death” and in that case “…upon subsequent review of the patient’s chart the anestesiologist had learned that the donor had gasped at the end of the apnea test…” The authro of the article left out the part that changed the entire story.!! There is still no documented case of someone actualy meeting criteria for brain death and recovering.
I skimmed your article by James Leonard PArk. You seem to be making a slippery slope arguemnt. Please correct me if I’m wrong. I’m not much a fan of slippery slope arguments. We are discussing brain death which some poskim say is dad either because like decapitated or because not breathing. Neither of those apply to Coma, PVS or Alzheimers. So bringing them up just confuses the issue there are alll sorts of nuts out there I dont think every meshugana opinion should be used to shape policy becasue of a slippery slope.
“our mention of the Chasam Sofer’s ruling about not waiting after death for burial was informative, but quite ironic”
Fair, though the bigger irony is he wanted death to be declared sooner than was in vogue now it used for the opposite. Also almost nobody says kavod hames is an issue. Most poskim allow transplants from a dead patient.
” don’t know exactly what the doctors were doing or at which point they give next of kin the boot. Most likely she was saying her goodbyes before traumatic aspects begin,”
More likely is, it is hyperbole to make the story more exciting. Do you believe the media doesnt do that?
BTW Mamale
Keep in mind I am not reffering to wrongful diagnoses of brain death. I.e say a person has cornela reflex or breathes/gasps during the apnea test yet is declared brain dead incorrectly either due to incompetnace or negligence on the declaring physician’s part.
while important, those limited cases are only tangentially related to the subject at hand.
I am reffering to when protocol IS followed and a patient is declared brain dead based on exisitng criteria/guidleines and subsequently recovers.
As another aside.
Dont forget people recover from “cardiac death” all the time.
In fact many teshuvas on the subject such as The Chasam Sofer’s are regarding the opposite situation. Where the in vogue thing was to wait a few days prior to burial since pt’s occasionaly awoke after being declared dead sometimes in a coffin or even underground (“saved by the bell”. governments wanted to ahve waiting periods of a few days to ensure the pt wouldnt recover from “cardiac death” To which the Chsam Sofer insisted if a person has a heart beat and/or bretahing he is alive otherwise dead and no need to wait
Mamale
“However, if medical personnel keep on making the same mistake, something is fishy”
There are no documented cases of a perosn being declared brain dead and “Waking up” There are severla reports in lay media (Zack dunlop, and Gloria Cruz come to mind) However as I said it is hard to know waht actually was “declared” Just last week I told a pateint’s family member that their loved one was in a cooma and unlikely to recover After discussing it extensivly and the family member seemed to have gotten it another family member later said “so you told my siter Dad is brain dead” He was not. IF the media where to ask what I said persumably she’d have said the same. Sadly the patient didnt recover but if He had this would be another “survival after brain death” when in fact the patient was NEVER declared brain dead.
If there where a documented case the Physician documenting it would achieve instant fame. Journals would fight over the case report it would be a landmark report. There is no reason if such a case existed it wouldne be published. outside of Tabaloids and news sources that generally repeat each other
“Here a diagnosis must be made within hours (or risk organ death which is the whole point)”
Many hospitals requitre repeat testing 24 hours apart (though this is becoming less common)
“Contrary to what you are saying, there was a documented case of organs being harvested …”
I dont have access. Though I think i have it saved at home. I dont rmeeber what it said. So i’ll have to get back on specifics.
However by definition, And again I cant repeat it enough since it is a mistake made by many including in halachic pieces on the subject. A brian dead person cant breathe
“It’s also troubling that they can react to the pain,”
I’m not sure why it is troubling. Have you seen a chicken after shechted it reacts to pain too yet is dead lekulay alma! (I dont chas veshalom mean to compare peopel tpo chickens, just give a real life physiologic example that you and others may be familiar with please dont misunderstand my comparison)
“(The logic is that if one’s brain stem controlling breathing etc. isn’t functioning the higher part of the brain surely isn’t, although prior studies have shown this to be wrong in a percentage of cases.)”
Do they cite any such studies?
“Finally each body’s organs can be valued at over $2 million,”
Thats an underestimate. Ask the recipents what they are worth to them…
mamale I saw the story.
These stories come up from time to time. It is hard to determine what actually happened. Granted this is partly because the hospital is covering itself.
This line is telling “was pronounced brain dead shortly after arriving ” Brain death is never “shortly” pronounced it usually takes a day or more. Though Michigan may be different than NY
Keep in mind though if a brain stem death pt actually recovered it would make for an amazing case report. The fact that there are none is interesting.
(The hospital cant stop a physician from publishing a case report)
PBA
killing them when they are alive or brain dead?
Mashiach Agent
Who is the king of IRan?
Mamale
“what are the laws regarding when organs may be harvested from an accident / shooting victim?”
ALl 50 states recongnise brain death. Once dead, with the families permission, when a recipient is identified the organs are removed.
” How do they determine clinical death?”
The exact criteria vary slightly state to state and often hospital to hospital.
Basicly the sequence is as follows:
1)casue is identified to ensure there is no reversibility.
2) There are certain prerequesites such as normal temp and blood pressure
3)a neuro exam is performed to ensure absence of brain stem reflexes including lack of spontaneous respiration
some hospitals have guidelines as to who can perform the above: any physician, an intensivest, neurologist, many require two exms spaced a certain number of hours apart. But to the best of my knowledge no medical body makes these recommendations nor does any state specifically require them.
Some hospitals require anicallry testing such as EEG to look for brain waves of angiography for blood flow but these are not generally required nor done.
“Can she be breathing on her own and still be a donor of a vital organ?”
By definition, no. And I cant stess this enough because I see this mistake repeatedly. If someone is breathing then they are not brain dead. To be brain dead, by definition, the person cannot be spontaneously breathing.
” Are brain scans done and how reliable are they?”
They are generally not done and are have variable reliablility as both false positives and negatives are not uncommon. Brain death is a clinical diagnoses much like “regular” death.
Joseph
The “mistake” I was reffering to was calling anything besides brain death “brain death” This is a very common mistake often found in media (and even among medial people) and I provided a recent example of this mistake. I was not reffering to misdiagnoses by medical people
As for this case
Was she actually declared brain dead?
What do they mean by “prepped for removal of her organs” She was on the operating table and as the surgeon got ready to cut ” she squeezed her mother’s hand” or is the “prepped fort the removal of her organs” hyperbole to make the story more exciting?
OOH we havent doen this in a while
I’m not sure what you mean by change halacha see Yoma 85a.
There are poskim who allowed brain death at least in theory if not practice.
As an aside does anybody know of a posek who doesn’t allow a person to receive a heart transplant?
Thanks
As to your question
“So I’m wondering, are medical staff truly clueless or are they simply blinded by the prospect of doing some transplants to save others, organ donor be damned?”
PArtly the former. Though the bigger problem is lack of understanding among laypeople regarding “brain death” which is often used interchangably with coma and persistive vegetative state. I dont know if this patient was actually declared brain dead or not media reports dont mean much though of course it is possible she was declared.
See for example a recent AMI piece on brain death where the author wrote “… Doctors where convinced that many of those who where breathing and whose blood was still circulating were really dead beacuse their brain function had ceased entirely.” and ” … patients who are brain-dead but whose circulatory and respiratory symptoms are still working.”
I assume this fellow researched his article yet he does not understand the abc’s of brain death. By definition a brain dead pateitn is not breathing rather a ventilator is breathing for him. By defintiion if he can breathe he isnt brain dead. Yet ths mistake is repeatedly made even by somehwat knowledgeable people.
mik5
Ok thats a start
I’m thinking about it but I cant work out the rest
Haman = ?
Achashveirosh = ?
Mordechai = ?
Esther = ?
Tophat!
Joseph
Just forfun…
1) Lots of things! screening for various diseases in particular certain cancers and education come to mind!
2) PRetty much everybody besides ISIS and IRan would prefer Saddam in power
3) Active weapons or remnants from previous programs in the 90’s?
4)No
5) Yes
“do you even know what the message of 9/11 is?”
No sadly there are no neviim today
“Do you know that 9/11 is our sad day for over 2000 years?”
I did not know that! why is yud aleph kislev a sad day?
???? ???, 9 is ???? Av is 11 ???? is 12 & ???? is 1″,
Um in my Torah Nissan is rishon lechadshei hashana
” how does that grab you? How does that shock you?”
It doesnt since My Torah says something else
” what about the phone number 911?”
What about it?
” that’s also ???? ???.”
How?
” that’s Americas emergency number for a minimum of 50 to 100 years, why didn’t they pick 111? “
Becasue it would be easy to be inadvertatly dialed
“are you going to tell me cause a baby might press 111 by mistake?”
Oh so you do know!
“These 2 tragedies-above-were only hint’s to tisha b’av,”
Which two? You mentioned 9/11 what was the other?
“but it wasn’t enough to bring klal yisroel to start doing teshuva. So what happened ON tisha b’av 2005, i.e. no more hints to tisha b’av? Gush Katif/the Gaza Disengagement, it was supposed to happen on tisha b’av but they waited until Motzei tisha b’av,”
Oh so it didnt happen on tisha bav?
” they did not even wait till the next morning, which means it was still tisha b’av in Chutz La’aretz (diaspora).”
So not in Gush katif
” Now let me ask you something, are these 3 tragedies-relating to tisha b’av-coincidence”
They dont all relate to tisha bav
” or is it a straight message from Hashem that its time for klal yisroel to wake up & do ??????”
IT s always time to do teshuva
” You think about it,”
You too
” this is not between people, this is between each person & Hashem.”
So why the rant?
Mamale
“So if 77% of Jews lived in cities, and 80% of Jews throughout all of Poland were recongnizably Jewish, how exactly were 2/3 of the Jews in the cities not religious as you contend?”
I’ll take this one.
I’m not sure why you equate “recognizably Jewish” with “religious” there are many today who are recongniizably Jewish today based on accent/self identification/Name etc (many celebreties come to minnd” yet unfortunalty arent religous. This was more true then when yiddish was widely spoken making identification of the irreligous bundists as Jewish quite easy.
Will you say the same thing when Ruth Bader Ginsberg Dies/Retires?
That “The United States Senate should kill any nominee that isn’t of the same ideological composition as Justice [Ginsberg]”?
“If small talk isn’t overly familiar, I don’t know what is”
Jospeh
I dont think you know what small talk is. Small talk is the exact opposite of “overly familiar” it is talk with complete strangers for example a person you sit next ot on a plane. About weather where your from etc…
Did you really not know this or is this part of your trolling?
“He’s someone who tells it like it is”
No, he says what people want to hear. “Mexico will pay for that wall” isnt telling it like it is. It is simplistic nonesense.
Are these quotes also “telling it like it is”
3/21/2004
10/1999
[then-House Speaker Nancy Pelosi]
I thought he was strong and smart, and it looks like we have somebody that knows what he is doing finally in office, and he did inherit a tremendous problem. He really stepped into a mess,” 2/9/2009Now certainly changing minds is ok, but on som many issues? including party affiliation?
and note the dates on these quotes. Granted some are dated but many are quite recent!
Families Rabbis and Education
by Shaul Stampfer
Blurb:
The family and the community, which were in a very real sense the core institutions of east European Jewish society, underwent very rapid change in the nineteenth century. These essays look at the past through the prism of the lives of ordinary people, with results that are sometimes surprising, but always stimulating. The topics they treat are varied, but the concern to explain what lay behind the visible reality is common to all of them.
Joseph
“Aside from putting words in others mouths, as you’ve done to DY, myself and others,”
Never done intentionally, perhaps Ive misstated an opinion or carried it to a logical extreme. If pointed out that I misinterpreted I always retract an apologize.
“and your lack of comprehension for answers you are repeatedly given”
Never occured. PErhaps you have trouble picking up on a subtle distiction or refusal to read a source I provide
“including broken down in very simple terms after your third and fourth request for an answer already given,”
Never. In fact quite the opposite
” you also misrepresent the position of others.”
As mentioned never intentionally.
You on the other hand frequently lie as ive proven to you on countless threads
You also repeat yourself even whe I patiently explain why you are mistaken see here please
Joseph
I would never oppose discussion and certainly not Torah discussion. however you have shown to not be interested in discussion, Torah or otherwise.
Ive often cited to you sources on the topic of chukas akum including with English translation in case your Hebrew isnt up to par. Yet you are still under the mistaken assumption that simply because it is “goyish” makes it chukas akum.
If you are actually open to discussion by all means. I love learning new things
Joseph
Learn for once. Start with Shulchan aruch Y”D 139
If you have some time learn YD 178 which seems to confuse you greatly.
Reb yid that is brlliant!
I think you are on to something
and maybe prices attached indicating how much nadin they come with
Health
“Why is it degrading? Be realistic, it’s degrading to say No, because Daddy doesn’t have enough dough in the bank!”
I don’t follow, If the Father’s bank account information was required that is also degrading (though not as much as a full body picture, and the tznius issue wouldnt apply)
“What makes you rally against pics, requiring resumes is much worse!”
Are you serious? All a resume is some basic information about the boy/girl where they went to school where they daven and references how is that comparable to demanding a picture, wait just her face isnt enough apperently, rather a “full-length” picture. LEt alone worse or “much worse”
Are you serious when you type these things? OR are you trying to make some sort of point?
Very well said DY.
Lol @ TheGoq
when the minhag of giving christian confirmation gifts at a Bar mitzvah start?
Squeak
“Moral of the story?”
That the Brisker Rav’s seforim are above the level of a 13 year old?
that people believe all sorts of nonsensical stories?
“You are either a troll or a sick individual.”
Why are those exclusive?
Yeru613
“TO UBIQUITIN I DONT THINK EVEN ONE KID SHOULD BE LEFT OUT COMPLETELY OF SCHOOL”
Great so you agree that it is bad when it happens.
” but the fact that some kids out of the 100+ born a week in lakewood dont get in to a school”
And you agree that it does happen.
” is not a reason for rechnitz to talk like that about “lakewood”.”
This part I dont follow. IF something bad is happening, and he might be in a position to have an influence, how can he NOT speak up?
“why didnt he talk about people who have terrible shalom bayis …or other big problems that are equally comman”
a. There wasnt enough time.
b. Kids being murdered is much more important
NC
“The theory is that if all the other RINOs drop out, then their votes will all have to go to Rubio by default and he’ll win. “
It is a pretty good threory. He already has 7 delegates (equal to Trump) only one less than Cruz (note this is about 0.65% of delgetaes needed to get the nomination).
So in terms of delegates they are essentially equal. All he needs to do is build up Momentum, paint himself as the altrenate to Trump and Cruz and he will probably get the nomination
“All other Iowa polls for the past couple have weeks have shown the order exactly as it happened”
virtually every poll I saw over the past 2 weeks had Trump in first place incluiding: qUINIPAC, NBC WSJ Bloomberg CBS Fox News CNN all had Trump in first place (in some cases by 10 percentage points)
CA
??????: ??? ???? ????, ?????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?????, ?? ?????? ??????? ????, ?????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???????, ????? (????? ?? ??) ?? ?? ?????? ???? ???????? ??????, ????????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ?????:
Hold up
MAshiach agent
“no sin in life is ever allowed to be done even if its unintentional.”
You do know this isnt true. right?
Especially by hilchos Shabbos. Where mileches machsheves is required. But even by other halachos It is used though not as much.
I am not saying if unintentional it is automatically allowed but it isnt always assur either. Eg. davar sheino miskaven if it isnt a pisik reisho is allowed in some cases.
yeru613
“Also, i am curious… what percentage just “fell” through the cracks without any pull or whatever”
What percentage do you consider acceptable?
DY
I’m not sure Sam and joseph agree here.
jospeh cant possibly be referring to Christian leap years. when he says “non-leap years” he obviously means Jewish ones
As for the OP
what do they like doing?
Why not check out mikomos dot com while geared towards dating I’m sure they can find something suitable for an anniversary outing
ooh can I play
“Isn’t it proper to first ask the question whether Yidden ought to be celebrating a wedding “anniversary” altogether?”
Not really. Like everything else it is muttar unless it is assur. So come up with a reason to asser. And I’l gladly explain why you are mistaken.
“And, secondly, are you celebrating based on the Christian calendar or based on the Jewish calendar?”
Probably neither. Though it in all likelihood may be based on the solar/civil calendar. It would hardly be the first thing based on the solar calendar. Vesein tal umatar, birchas hachama, nittel (if that is your minhag) Are all based on the civil calendar. For that matter the entire structure of our leap years is designed to keep us in sync with the solar/civil(/christian?) calendar so that every 19 years Jewish and secular/solar/(christian?) dates coincide give or take up to 2 days.
Furthermore As you may know the Gemara at the end of Makos says that “hasatan+ = 364 kineged the 364 days a year the satan has power except Yom kippur. Guess what kind of year has 365 days?
bottom line is while the phrase stam “a year” is counted based on months (i.e 12 or 13 lunar cycles), this is only becasue of a limud hakasuv of chadshim atah moneh and not days. If not for this limud “a year” would in fact be counted based on days i.e. the solar year which you call the “christian year” regarding a neder, sale, yahrtzeit etc There is no such limud regarding anniversaries, thus there is nothing wrong with counting based on the solar/civil year.
OOmis
“They will take up TWO spaces instead of moving one foot forward or back, so that another car can fit. Sorry that I feel that is wrong.”
Agreed though that isnt the discussion
“I would NEVER call a tow on someone,…”
Check with your LOR it is probably muttar
“So please forgive me for my strongly felt opinion that it would not be a bad thing …”
No need to ask for forgiveness. It is a very frustrating time and it is causing you not to think this through rationaly. I really do get it. I too spent a while digging out my car knowing ful well as soon as I left somebody else (who dug out his car too) will take “my” spot.
“I dug out my car AND the spot next to it, so two cars could fit there”
As I said I agree if you dug out a spot nobody should take it before you do. IS that what happened?
“Why should someone who paid NOTHING for the work we had done, benefit that day or the next?”
Becasue otherwise the city couldnt function. There isnt enough metered parking that self digs itself to allow stores to function.
“I did NOT take anyone’s parking spot from them. I parked at meters when I went shopping.”
I have news for you somebody shoveled many of thsoe too! as for that where empty before the storm that were plowed by the city there siply arent enough for all of us.
“Someone took our spot in front of my house, last year, and LEFT their car there for a week!…
“
No that isnt nice. But doesnt change anything youve said.
Also dont you have a driveway?
OOmis
First just to clarify You didnt dig out a spot you dug out your car. (If there was a empty spot that you went ahead and dug out so that you can put your car there, then I agree nobody should park there before you do)
More importantly though. when you left the spot where did you park? You do realize wherever you parked was dug out too thes now didnt fall leaving you empty spots at wherever you may need to be in the next few days. right?
Are you suggesting that for a couple of days people should only be allowed to park in stores with parking lots? Does this really make sense to you?
People who commute to work shouldnt go to work unless their office provides parking?
And someone who was out of town for the storm cant park at all for a few days after the storm?
Do you realy think any of the above are reasonable?
In NYC it is both illegal nor is it understood.
It is also impractical since the line between commercial/residential is quite blurry. On a given day 10 different cars park in any spot even on my residential block, running various errands down the block. Preventing all those people from parking all day doesn’t make a lot of sense, it would mean every spot in NYC is “Reserved” since obviously somebody dug it out.
Writer soul
” Don’t you try to get rabbis who are already rabbis on their own merits?”
you certainly try…
“.. The title gives the person more respect in EVERY sphere, whether the bearer deserves it or not.”
That is true to an extent. Those more learned than a motivational speaker “Rabbi” don’t have respect for him simply because he calls himself “Rabbi” They know he is an ignoramus who may do some good through his fake “Rabbi” title.
“A person should have the title which befits his/her stature,”
That is a fair point, which is precisely what the OP said. This has nothing to do with men vs women.
“Nobody will call a nurse or PA “Doctor” in order to accord them more respect.”
This is not true at all. PA’s are often called Doctors and often even introduce themselves as Doctors. (though that doesn tmake it right, and isn’t really directly comparable to the Rabbi issue)
“As far as “rebbetzin”- it simply does not have the same significance. That is a fact. I understand that you disagree,”
I don’t disagree, though I don’t think that is a related to the title per se. Men and Women are not viewed as equal in our (i.e. Yeshiva/Right wing orthodoxy)
” if someone were to hear “Rebbetzin X said that we should do Y,” there would not be the same reaction as if it were “Rabbi X said…””
Depends on the rabbi and Rebbetzin, for the motivational speaker- rabbi most people would have the exact same reaction to the two believe it or not
” I see here that we disagree, though, so perhaps we should just agree to let it rest.”
sure.
writer soul
“… that the way that things are is the way that it should be, that anyone who takes up a pulpit can achieve a title. …”
I’m not sure if that is one statement or two. Absolutly a pulpit leader should be called Rabbi even without a formal test
You ask “What does the title of rabbi mean to you?”
Depends on the situation, I’ll go through my examples:
For my kid’s elementary school Rebbe it is a sign of respect a kid should have towards his teacher. I don’t neeed to have the same level of respect (nor do I when my kid isn’t around) he isn’t my Rebbe, nor is he a talmid chacham nor has he received semicha. He absolutely should insist on the students calling him “Rabbi Stein” (I’m using a generic name) and I would do the same in front of my kids and even not in front of my kids as a sort of lo plug.
Kashrus mashgichim- it is important for the workers to look to him as a Rabbi and thus should use the title when they are around
Kiruv people and motivational speakers – it helps them gain prestige among the unlearned who they are trying to be mekarev or inspire. They are also a “Rebbe” to those they teach Torah to, so being called “Rabbi” by those they are mekarev/inspire is appropriate. Female speakers such as Rebbetzen Jungreis, Rebbetzen Fayge Twersky, Rebetzin Temima Mizrachi use similar titles. You said “But neither of those has the same cache that the title of rabbi has” Do you think that is merely a distinction based on title? However I have news for you most people view Rabbi xxxxxxx (insert your favorite non- talmid chacham non semicha bearing motivational speaker) as not much different than an equivalent Rebbetzin
Camp directors – This one I never really got, and as a kid too always struck me as strange. MAybe they are using it the way elementry school rebbeim use it. I’m not sure I’m willing to grant that that one is weird.
Rebyid
Lol I guess that’s how wrong the two sentences were
DY
Fair point
Writer soul, I’m sorry if I misrepresented your position particularly this line: “You want a new innovation that women should be called “Rabbi” …”
If that is not what you intended please skip that line the rest of my post stands though
Writer soul
“…Women have no equivalent title which they can don so easily. Allowing ANY man to use it would be an innovation, and one which is, indeed, unfair…”
All three of these sentences are mistaken.
But first lets backtrack.
There are three categories of people reffered to as Rabbis. (of course there is overlap eg many fall in both a and b)
a Talmidei Chachamim even without formal semicha
b people with formal semicha even if they may not be talmidei chachamim
c people in a posisition of “leadership” eg Grade school rebeim, kashrus mashgichim, kiruv people, motivational speakers, camp directors etc (of course some of these may be more valid than others).
The OP doesn’t like catgeroy c.
This is where you come in.
You want a new innovation that women should be called “Rabbi” too (ie women in category c) The reason for this that you gave initally is to avoid “double standards “and “fairness” however neither of thsoe are real reasons.
If all you seek is a title of respect for Women in category C. I dont get the problem, Grade school teachers are called “Morahs” motivational speaers have the tietle “Rebbetzin” (E.G. Rebbetzin Esther Jungreis) What is the problem?
So to sum up:
“.Women have no equivalent title which they can don so easily….”
False Morah, and Rebbetzin bot come to mind.
” Allowing ANY man to use it would be an innovation,”
False this is the way it has been for a while now (ie “Rabbis” only applying to men even when unearned in a formal sense)
“…and one which is, indeed, unfair…”
Perhaps True but irrelevant as has been repeatedly pointed out (why do you keep making the same mistake?)
writersoul
what on earh are you talking about.
“But this would be creating something new. To CREATE a double standard “
Calling only males Rabbis isnt new. you know that right?
YOU want to create somehting new.
Now, I am not one of those who says all changes and innovations are wrong (in fact some are proably surprised on which side of this discussion I fall). However given the importance of mesora, you need a good reason to create somehting new (namely calling women Rabbis). Of course the more drastic the change the better the reason needs to be.
Now there may in fact be good resaons to call Women Rabbis, say you felt they needed it for self esteem or female role modetls or something (I may not agree with those reasons but at lest you can make the case for it.
So far the “reasons” you have given for this innovation are to avoid “doubl;e standards” and that it should be “right”
As Ive pointed out with several examples, neither of those are reasons, our religion is not opposed to “double standrds” at all. Zilp zero nada. MEn and women do in fact have different standaards and are not equal.
No it isnt fair (by society’s standard that men and women be equal)
Again, im so sorry if this is news to you.
And again, you can come up with valid arguments why the innovation of women Rabbis should be considred “fairness” is nsimply not a reason.
writersoul
You are ,aking the same mistake again
“…How is that right…”
Its not! I never claimed otherwise.
How is it right that I cant bring the ketores even if I am a bigger baki than the kohen?
How is it right that I cant sit in the azara even if Im really really tired?
TRhe premise of your question “…How is that right..” is flawed.
You were one hundred percent correct in your assesment “My point was only that it is a double standard…” it absolutly is I agree whole heartedly.
I merely pointed out that we have many such “double standards”
AVi K pointed out that these double standards are not allways applicable for example before the law all are equal. However generally there are many differences based on gender, age, lineage etc.
Is this really news to you?
APY
I’m not sure about the Seattle or court part.
I appeared in the New York Times 5/5/75. In an Article entitled “Responsa: The Law as Seen By Rabbis for 1,000 Years”
The relevant quote attributed to R” Moshe is:
“You can’t wake up in the morning and decide you’re an expert on answers. If people see that one answer is good, and another answer is good, gradually you will be accepted.”
(Though he didnt speak English so its obviously not verbatim)
The entire article is interesting. With Google’s help it is easy to find
writer soul, shekermoochlat
“My point was only that it is a double standard…”
Of course it is a double standard. Is this really your first encounter with this?
The notion that all people are equal is not a Jewish one.
There are differences between men and women
There are differences between old and young
There are differences between learned and unlearned
There are differecnes between Kohanim and Others
Need I go on?
Is this really news to you?
Careful LF
The Coffee Room is less than 10 years old. You are giving away your age this is critical!
“Remember last year when the forecasters said nyc was going to get a lot of snow and deblasio closed all the streets and then nothing happened”
I dont remeber that at all. I rember when less than predicted fell but 6 -to 12 inches of snow cant be called “nothing happned”
Parts of long island had over 26 inches. (I assume you are reffering to Juno)
Granted this that wasnt “something we have never seen” which is how it was described leading into it but it wasnt “nothing” And as experience has shown better safe than sorry. Especially when you consider previous snowstorms that we had been ill prepared for as Rebyid pointed out.