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Avram > We can’t just “not trace it further to our times”
I agree, I was just explaining that you start w/ early sources and then see what qualifiers later sources add to that. I am absolutely open to hearing those to discuss.
Avram > do you calculate maaser on your income before or after taxes?
after, psak from a local chareidi Rav. A good question – does this decision affect how you see taxes and getting them back? This is what I mentioned as a possible window of actions due to a sofek how to see taxes. Go ahead, what is your approach?
Avira > it’s extremely rare for terror attacks to happen in England, Antwerp,
Taking a longer view, mainland Europe’s safety track record for Jews is limited to the last 70 years, after 2,000 years of being prime targets of prosecution. True, some locations as you mention have a couple of hundreds of years. Hope it continues, but, historically speaking, Europe is not yet a “safe place”. 1913 Europe was viewed by humanity as safe, and with current events we see how unstable things might be. Anyway, we should cherish any place where we, and other people, can have shalom, and not advocating Hashem’s tzitzum to just 2-3 cities. The more, the better.
1, right. I am not against BTLs, just wondering what is the use, other than law school?
I am also interested in applying yeshiva/seminary credits to other colleges for those who are not in commuting distance from heilicke Brooklyn. Many people ponder sending to a local college v. YU or Touro. this does sound more like a question for ani-ima site, although halakha makes fathers responsible for teaching kids Torah and professions, not mothers.
RW > I understand that the Hebrew we speak today is more modern, but how can you say its a new invented language?
Modern Hebrew was revived by early Zionists as a way to forge an identity separate from both religious Jews on one side and from those who wanted to build socialism for everyone, rather than just for Jews, on the other.
Current Israeli Jews are 4 generations from those halutzim, and most of that ideology is dead. So, the question now should be – is there anything inherently wrong with using modern Hebrew? some of the arguments against it are reasonable, others sound like a way to fight those last-generation battles.
RebE> Rambam Hilchas Kiddush Hachodesh (17, 24)
T his seems to be in a wrong thread ..thanks, he says astronomy and geometry. He also says that Chochmei Israel bnei Yassahar knew this also but we lost their writings and that it is not so much that we trust “scientists” but that we judge their argument by the merit of their proofs, not their identities.
And this may be a good reason for people to study math and other hard sciences before they get to philosophy and any serious Jewish studies. It is a simple kal vehomer that one’s ability to see true argument in hard sciences is higher as there is usually an answer in the back of the book. Without it, and with “positive learning” popular today, everyone becomes convinced of his own thinking abilities because he always comes to the right conclusion (according to his own judgment or the judgment of his teachers). If you once struggle to prove a geometry theorem that a Greek guy using two instruments in the sand near Athens could, you’ll be humbler claiming that you understand hidden ways of Hashem.
The story I heard was of a guy walking into the Satmar Rebbe’s office while the secretary was out for lunch. He told Rebbe about his sick wife and children, lost parnosa, Rebbe gae him money. The secretary saw him on the street coming out and ran to the Rebbe – hope you didn’t give him anything, he is a known swindler. Or, so his wife is not sick his kids are OK? He did not lose parnosah?! Boruch Hashem …
RebE, I presume he is typing on the phone and it is a tircha to press buttons to get to caps. It is not a mitzva meduoraita as Hebrew rarely uses capitals …
If you do it once though, you can try the phone according to your derech. Phone will know who deserves the z’l and who not.
Outrageous embezzlement and corruption – using public funds to directly pay large sums of money to potential voters right before a losing election.
CNBC public poll:
28% wants all to be forgiven, 31% “only for those in need”. Given that this forgiveness is more than just “those in need”, seems like 40-50% will support this. Dems are divided 44% to 44% between those who want to forgive all and those for “only in need”, so this is a compromise between two dem fractions. 60% of R-s want no forgiveness. Independents are way closer to Dems here (21% no forgiveness, other 2 options about equal).60% of Americans are concerned that student loan forgiveness will make inflation worse. (80% of Rs, 40% of Ds, and 55% of Is).
Interestingly, 23% of all borrowers increased their other spending during forgivenes pause and ….
40% are not sure what the approximate interest rate is on their loans (only 30% of Rs who seem to be better in counting their money).Seems like you are zeroing in on the key question: what is the purpose of communication?
Business matters are OK. At the same time, some conversations here are osur for any combinations of genders. Maybe a rule of thumb should be – do not type anything you would not say face-to-face to a reasonable person. Again, should work for all genders.
RebE > Should be ?? ???? with the woman who is recognized as his wife.
How would a man recognize that an anonymous poster is his wife?
If she does not pay attention to his posts.Syag> You haven’t given a halachik source
We had R Akiva and Rambam discussed before and I referred to several siyufim in Shulchan Orach, Yoreh Deah 255 above. True, I did not trace it further to our times, but you probably know this is how halakha is discussed, starting from earlier sources. So, either I am not applying S’A terms correctly to modern realities (as Avram is suggesting) or there are later sources that explain why and how halakha changed.
Avram > You should take your own advice. There are gedolim in Lakewood.
Thanks for agreeing and for an advice to follow my wise advice! A good challenge.
As a personal aside, one of my Teachers is a Lakewood resident for maybe 60 years. I never asked him about transfer payments. But you are not asking me to learn personally at Lakewood, but to respect Lakewood derech, right?
I agree that there is some similarity to how Avira looks at modernim. Let me try to look from outside, maybe you can do it better:
1) I do not choose my learning sources based on their reading or not of Kant or knowing calculus, or even political or social positions. I guess I’d draw a line for those supporting Arafat or Putin, but this is, b’H, not a big group at our times.
2) You can see me urging Avira to understand the positive sides of people he is criticizing. No response. I think I fully appreciate successes of yeshiva/hareidi movement in getting us to the current moment.
3) It well may be that their social policies are still correct en masse. Still, In my thinking, there are many people who are capable of better living: better in a Jewish sense. I also suspect that gedolim’ opinions is not as the oilam sees it, or it is not the same for everyone. I know people whose children were in anti-college yeshivos but RY were fine in private with these particular kids going to college. I do not think Steipler tried to stop R Twersky also.
Avram > Who says that the U.S. Government entitlements are halachically considered tzedakah?
It is a good question. What are alternatives? I see halakhic sources mentioning a goyishe ruler giving to charity and we have problem with that seemingly due to his personal involvement. Maybe having a law-based society, treating Jews as equals in all aspects, changes that. So, this argument might allow taking payments from non-Jewish government in a legitimate way, especially as we pay our taxes.
So, just general thinking about halakhic status of payments from government:
– explicit insurance: unemployment, flood, FDIC, medicare, social security (even if a trick somewhat)
– payment for accepted services: school transportation, public services
– old-style political hegemon payments, like I hear student loan forgiveness for slackers.
– charity: welfare, food stamps, medicaid: any payments based on low income, maybe even taking low-income tax deductions, I guess.Why are the later ones charity? It is an organized system of supporting poor. Again, an interesting question: do we consider it “non-Jewish” or some more neutral form. Let’s say it is a sofek, then you can have two possible set of rules: some for Jewish charities, some for non-Jewish (I don’t think these are kal vehomer – one may be more stringent in some cases, another – in other). So, appropriate behavior would be somewhere between these two versions.
If anyone has better halakhic sources, I am all ears.
Avram> So do you think the Rambam wrote the Mishne Torah for the rich to use to rub the poor’s faces in the dirt
I think he wrote it for the poor to encourage them to work and live kosher Jewish life. If I may to rephrase what Rambam said about his work: you can be a full-time lawyer, read Mishne Torah on the train to work and stay fully “frum”.
Avram> You’ve mentioned making Shabbos as chol
I am sorry, it was R Akiva who mentioned that, of course, not me. You are making me repeat that by not replying on substance 🙂 I don’t think most people need to go to that extreme. If you accept a modest lifestyle and work a couple of hours a day, you should have herring left for shaloseudos. Granted, Gemora lets (although not recommends) a father to send the kids after 6 y.o. to go do some work, so maybe some adjustments are in order.
Avira > using kiekeergard to explain adam harishon is enough reason for me not to accept him as authoritative.
yet another condition for a T.Ch – not to read books unapproved by Avira … you inspired me to read some boring theses exploring the theme, mostly uncovering the hidden in order to be eligible for thesis defense, not very convincing. I found an article Rav Soloveitchik’s New World View By: DAVID P. GOLDMAN, 2018 (that confirms the connection) interesting to understand Rav’s relationship to Western philosophy with this metaphor: It is surely valid to speak of such influences, in the same way that we might say that a man who observes a train wreck is influenced by trains.
He also quotes an interesting idea from Plato and apparently something similar from R Soloveichik: first study math before philosophy. Meaning: if you can’t master math, don’t go further.
Also, here is an interesting quote from the Rav that explains how he looks at influences as both possible but not overwhelming:
…would help us to discriminate between the living and the dead in Jewish philosophy. What, for instance, is of halakhic nature in the Guide and the Kuzari, and what merely an echo of Platonic-Aristotelian philosophy? The purpose of such an analysis is not to eliminate non-Jewish elements. Far from it, for the blend of Greek and Jewish thought has oftimes been truly magnificent.15 However, by tracing the Jewish trends and comparing them to the non-Jewish, we shall enrich our outlook and knowledge. Modern Jewish philosophy must be nurtured on the historical religious consciousness that has been projected onto a fixed cognitive screen. Out of the sources of Halakhah, a new world view awaits formulation.
> rabbi kook would see what his movement led to, the lack of tznius,
Do we know that? what would have happened without him? Maybe, same people would end up in kibutzim and there would still be a commi-socialist state in Israel. Same, as people complain about some Chabad baalei teshuva behaving inappropriately. Maybe their alternative was to be in drug rehabs or gender studies before they bumped into a shaliach on campus. (hope, I am equal opportunity offender here).
If you blame R Kook for admiring Jews playing soccer on shabbos, what did he do while he lived in more observant places in Europe: did he encourage observant Jews to play soccer even on chol? If not, maybe you should not complain.
Gadol> Inspector General of DHS/Secret Service is himself under investigation for failing to disclose the “coincidental” deletion of SS text
It is not the first time I see that SS was apparently fond of Trump, as long as multiple stories of some other presidents not being their favorite. These are people who see Presidents daily and closely. Is there any good reason for their preferences?
> Without AARTS the degree isn’t recognized as an undergraduate degree.
Many colleges will do transfer from other institution. I think this does not require accreditation, just a solid syllabus of the class.
y1836 > your definition seems to be, Gedolim who were anti-Zionist
The problem of his definition is that it ls self-serving. We look at “gedolim” to see something that we might not figure out ourselves. With this definition, you simply re-define any gadol who disagrees with you as lower-level human gadol. Then, the whole notion is meaningless and serves simply as a way to find louder arguments for your own position.
> BTL will be accepted for school, it’s not great on a resume for employers
Would BS degree matter when you have a higher degree? Maybe law firms are picky, but in my areas it does not matter.
> Henkin “grappled’ with this question
Just guessing: maybe this was a common question among his hevrah and he thought it important to give this answer in public and explain it so that they understand.
> some do not want to write zatzal because of the damage he caused,
R Yochanan was not sure until his death whether he made a huge aveirah by asking for too little from Vespasian. Sofek on his zatzal also? what about crowds that became or stayed observant because of Rav Kook? Don’t count?
> me started dis thread
Learn humbleness. CR is great character-builder.
Avira, thanks for quoting this teshuva!
> the world is ok with jews coming to “their” land, and they see it as “natural” – has he ever heard what they say at the UN? They hated Israel from day 1…
By the letter of the law, UN voted to create Israel. Don’t take zechuyos from people who need them .. Maybe Americans wanted to stick it to Brits, and Soviets expected a client communist state, but their vote is what mattered.
> Poskim are human. Unless they’re the gedolei olam,
You are refining further and further your system of rejecting Talmidei Chachamim who don’t agree with you. In this case, you may forgive some of the gedolim for being emotional like many other Yidden when an event of such historical magnitude happens – at the seemingly very lowest point of
Jewish history. As one chacham writes in his memoirs at that time: “European Jewry is destroyed, Russian Jews are permanently under Communists, there never was a yeshiva in America and never will be, EY is under Brits and not allowing anyone in, ehat is going happen with the Torah? …”. I am sure you can reply to this Chacham that Zionists did not support Torah directly, but if you put yourself back at that time, it gave hope and any hope mattered. Think for a minute what if American Jews stayed fully secular – EY would be the only place for Torah. I am sure you’ll go there to learn of there were no other choices. Would rather learn there under an Arafat or an Assad? Do you think they will let Chazon Ish to have his “midbar” peacefully?Rabeinu Yona puts 9 categories of lying (1 is the worst). Discussion here relates to
4) People who fabricate stories merely for the sake of lying
9) People who change minor details when retelling an episode.This is somewhat unexpected. I thought lying for the sake of it should be below items 5-8 (below).
I surmise is is because pointless lying shows love of lying and developing a habit.5. People who hold out the promise of giving another person material goods while never intending to follow up on their promise;
6. People who intend to keep a promise but do not honor their commitment;
7. People who claim that they did a favor or a good deed for another when in fact they have not;
8. People who praise themselves for virtues that they do not possess;Speaking about this, colleges evaluate transfer classes. What yeshivos and seminaries have good record of providing class descriptions for transfer and maybe already provided them to some popular off- and on- line colleges?
Jackk > unless it’s an argument in politics, I would never do it.
I admire your admission. To paraphrase Berdichever: look how kodesh your children are, Eibishte – they’ll admit anything in order not to lie. Except this is ot working in the case of admitting to lying.
There is a little red book “Lying for truth” by (at that time) young unknown author that I appreciated and used to leave in shuls and lots of people would grab it in order to find some kulos, I guess, but then put it back disappointed… After listing possible kulos from Gemora, the book ends with a caveat from Besht: you can’t use these kulos if you have ever said impermissible lie.
This fun discussion raises a serious issue of current assimilation in general culture. We used to be afraid of avoda zora, then of olympic games, then of churches, then of universities and lack of tzniyut, but we are now assimilating discourse values from media and making this approach to truth acceptable. People who think that they can bend the truth in some issues but not in others are deluding themselves. Soon, you’ll be talking about Torah same way and soon we will not be able to read books about gedolim 100 years ago and not know what is truth or not (see another thread).
I am curious: was there a Democrat in general or in CR who called for full investigation of Hunter’s businesses in order to clear his name from unfounded accusations?
Avram > if you can arbitrarily create “sides” in Am Yisroel,
Sure, let’s continue this pilpul. Puting aside chilonim, then if a person who learns only 2 hours a day can criticize kollel, then a learner who serves in the army for only 2 hours a day can criticize tzahal.
ok, now your “common saychel” status confirmed. And I presumed your college was in-town, you did not move to a fancy campus.
AAQ >> “I AM ALL FOR FATHER-IN-LAWS AND BUSINESSMEN SUPPORTING LEARNERS”
Avram> No you’re not. I’ve been around the block with you on that topic before.I am not sure what was the context of my previous words … maybe we were discussing learning v. part/time learning and working and Gemora’s position that many followed R Shimon and failed? This still allows for people who will not fail and also those who will fail will simply live a little warped life without affecting other people. This seems like an academic topic, I do not think we have – in our times – a lot of people who fail in learning but excel in middos to not take OPM. Usually, if you have good middos and access to learning material, you will succeed.
Avram > What level of poverty would you like to see before you’re satisfied?
whatever it takes. Make your shabbos as chol. See below. I am sure there are tirutzim to read away these basic halochos as such lifestyle seems acceptable and we can argue about it for a long time, that is why I generously called these halochos “chumros”.
YD 255 ????? ????? ??? ???? ??????
when can one take? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ???????
????’ ??? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ????’ ??????? ?????? ??? ????? ??????:
?? ?? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?? ?????? ??????non-Jewish charity seems to be more stringent than Jewish
YD 254 ???? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?? ????Can someone clarify what was the thinking of Rav’s son who sent his son to a co-ed school, esp if, as mentioned above, against the wishes of the grandfather? Were these some ideological considerations or practical ones?
I could not find anything about online colleges in Igros Moshe, but I still highly recommend those. You get same lectures as in in-person, you get no co-ed problems (other than seeing people of other gender typing), and it generally costs 2 times less, esp if counting cost of campus or commute.
Also, having a small group of talmidim taking same classes creates sufficient group environment for study. Maybe some local educated Yidden can assist the bochrim in selecting classes, general outlook towards studying and tutoring if needed.
> Do you think Rav henkin approved of his son sending his grandson to a mixed college?
Do you know he did not? And here we have 1 not 2-generational problems. And presumably Rav educated his son himself or at least sent him to the right yeshiva. What caused the son to change his views? Same w/ Rav Feinstein and his daughter. Is this the sign of those times? In our days, most Rabbinical families do not have a lot of children going OTD. Here you are talking about gedolim en masse not being able to educate their children. An alternative explanation would be that those children’s behavior is within the norms acceptable to their parents but you can’t fathom this.
Btw, we need to have some understanding what is a child that needs to be protective. From ketubot, a father can send a 6-y.o to earn money, a 12.5 y.o. girl can get married on their own. With this in mind, one can argue that a high-schooler, and surely a college student, are “legal adults”. Of course, we should be mindful of downsides that we know are happening.
> “??? ?????? ????? ?????? ???????”
This indeed fulfils Rambam, as long as one understands this as a temporary protective solution. Unfortunately, dor hamidbar got comfortable and convinced themselves that it is a mitzva to live in midbar – something Rambam surely did not mean.
Colleges that Avigdor Miller and Lubavicher Rebbe attended probably did not have a lot of women at the time. It is a known social observations that groups with less women are more moral (i.e. women are in demand and can insist on their rules).
There is also a difference between attending a local college with kids attending classes and going home v. shipping kids to a campus.
> Do you actually have examples of supposed lies he spread
how is that not an invitation for lashon hara that was gladly taken. You both will be talking past each other quoting sources that each of your sides trust. This is going nowhere. Can you guys try to find original sources. Maybe gedolim did not out everything in writing on such sensitive topics, but at least something. It is flabbergasting that we can’t figure out what the well-known people a 100 years ago thought about important topics. This is a “broken masorah” when we can’t trust the sources …
I guess, this works for law schools, but what about other jobs? It should be possible to count accredited yeshiva classes for humanities/cultural/electives and then have ~ 2 years of professional training at a local or online university. Anyone has experience with that?
Avram > would it not be prudent for them to find out why chareidim do not serve?
I agree, and I believe there are some initiatives that makes charedim serve in acceptable units.
< chutzpah for a “side” that doesn’t generally learn Torah full time to criticize kollel learners
that’s a cheap shot. Someone who serves in the army risks his life for the safety of others.
I am not sure whose criticism you mean – chilonim, other religious Jews or me personally. My skepticism regarding current social system is not that I don’t want people to learn, I want them to learn with all the chumros mentioned by Rambam and human decency. I am all for father-in-laws and businessmen supporting learners, or people learning in poverty without using funds that are not given to them for that purpose.Netziv lived before medinah, but I think people who were growing that wine were tzionim, not yerushalmis. I may be wrong though.
jackk, proceedings need to provide minimal standards of fairness. With Rosenbergs and other spies, they were all involved in helping Soviet murderers in various ways, all of that made them deserving punishment.
Avira, so before you were accepting certain people but not others. Now, you are saying that there are people who are 50% to 99% Talmidei Chachamim and your favorite authorities admitted that. but the remaining part is treif and they are human and frail. This is contrary to other Talmidei Chachamim, of whom books are written that they are not human and frail. I know R Meir treated Acher that way, but I don’t think this is a usual way. The usual way is that if you are confronted with Talmidei Chachamim disagreeing, you need to respect them all, even if you disagree.
I presume Moshe, Shmuel, David spoke some sort of Hebrew despite it being a difficult language to talk in?!
also, you are looking at it from your own perspective. how about several millions of Jews who did not master Gemora? Israeli Jews have a way higher chance of eventually finding their home than American. and Ivrit is part of that.
jackk,
where do you find in Jewish books permission to mislead other people? You are measuring the sea level by the highest wave.There are always multiple polls and you can find a one you like.
Biden’s average is 41%, indeed 5% above his absolute lowest of 36% a month ago and a little below of his previous plato of 42%. I suspect this is mostly due to progressives coming home and increased enthusiasm among them. Meanwhile, average house margin (538) went from R +6% to R +4% so you have something to be optimistic about.I find it difficult to understand this argument about bnei David. What were Chashmonaim supposed to do? Go find a Ben David who didn’t show up on his own? Maybe more reasonable they should not call themselves kings and have a broader power sharing with Sanhedrin. Still not clear how this is possible at the time of fighting that requires unified power, see Shmuel and Washington. It seems the immediate source of their downfall was fighting each other and calling Pompey to resolve that. Still, there was no path to independence in the Roman empire, as r Yohanan understood
Ujm, I am bringing her as an example that rabonim did not seem to object to her learning. Are you saying they were wrong based on the tragic outcome? Or maybe we need to conclude that husbands need to be more understanding of their learned wives instead of testing their psyche . In general, it is not a good idea to make up nisyonim, Hashem knows which ones are the right ones, but people don’t as in this example
Were people had? Some leftwingers are boasting that republicans were not able to focus on criticizing recent climate reduction bill because they voted so quickly before details were understood and fox was talking about the raid 24-7. Would it be too much to credit bidenistas with timing these events? Given their score record this seems unlikely but the coincidence did happen
Avira, so what is your explanation of Gerer Rebbe’s action?
I think if moishe were to encounter Beruriah online, she could teach him how to make his question shorter