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Syag > These parent put more emphasis on the academics that their children learn, then they put on the hashkafos they learn.
I think I understood you. I agree that this problem exists. I just don’t agree that it has to be so bad. I presume, you go to stores, cook your food, and have more than one change of clothes. How much are you fretting that your family prioritizes food over learning Torah? I presume that someone in your family goes to work? Is he/she prioritizing work over learning? As I said before, our community did admirable job counteracting assimilation and desire to be “like Joneses”. This was appropriate, following Rambam’s approach – if you have a wrong midah, you need temporarily (sic!) go to another extreme until you train yourself and then return to the “golden middle”. Same with the community as a whole – in the process of defending from assimilation, our communities became distorted not just economically, but also hashkofically in terms of how we live our lives. Gemora already said that “many followed Rashbi and were not successful”. So, if we have already 2-3 generations that have distorted values, we will not preserve the Torah of previous generation, but a perverse version of it.
Gadol, I have no problem with private business building any car they want, electric, gas, even nuclear. As long as their doing so is not distorted by the government too much (for example, I think the abovementioned Ford needs “green” vehicles to counter-balance their very profitable trucks and still satisfy the gov requirement “on average”)
user176 > I imagine that teachers usually do not do it for the money
This is true – and one wonderful principal frankly said exactly these words about the teachers she hires … What I see, though, in latest couple of generations is that there are too many people who have no other work options except chinuch, due to their own education. When they grow up, some of them discover passion for teaching and others – do not, but they are expected to go into chinuch. [ Maybe in some larger communities, they can go work for some “frum” businesses who will not be afraid to hire and teach them the business]. So, they go and do the best of it, without much passion.
In some elementary schools, you have one main teacher for at least half-a-day. So, if you get an inappropriate teacher for a kid for the whole year, it is difficult. The fact that the last year teacher was a tzadekes is not helping at that moment… Here is where free market could help. Quoting a Rav who told me of a conversation he had with a principal:
– would you know already who is going to teach 5th grade this year?
– Hashem will help
– So, He will be holding my tuition check for nowSyag > level of academics than the hashkofos. And don’t think their kids don’t pick up on it.
They absolutely pick up! We are teaching kids that academics is hashkofa. Some people prepare for lifetime chinuch and this is great, especially if they understand what is required and ready for it. This would typically be people from families with such traditions. Others prepare to work be erliche yidden in what they do, do chesed, learn, etc. Our family has at least 5 generations of engineers/ businessmen/ doctors and the kids understand that academics is required to follow this derech. They understand that academics is not a goal to supersede others and none of them was interested in going to schools with good academics but compromised behaviors.
Syag, beyond personal experiences, I researched all local frum and even modern schools, and heard from other people about other places. I spoke with a number of Rabbis and teachers both working in those schools and those who were just customers. I do understand that my knowledge is limited, of course. My suggestions are based what I know of halakhic approaches, and you are welcome to bring your own knowledge also. If you are not denying that halakha wants unlimited competition between teachers and all that is implied by that, then the question is how exactly this should be applied.
Well, you may think that this is an inappropriate topic, then, where should I look for suggestions what to tell the kids, who are already aware, and who grew up with these books.
Raising salaries may not solve the problem. As it is, many working families that pay full or close to full tuition find it hard to pay and spend their lives earning money to pay for, edited schools. They have less time to spend with kids and thus have to rely on schools to do more and more of chinuch. Look also at public school system – generally, “taking care” of teachers lead to an expensive system. Furthermore, giving charity funds to schools makes them even responsive to parents (same as in public schools)
Gemora and later halakha provides a carve out for teachers for unlimited competition – so that prices will be lower and parents could afford it. This does not mean “do not pay teachers well”, it means enable true competition and market – enable many smaller schools that parents can easily switch between, encourage transparency of school budgets and educational outcomes, enable parents to use part of the school program, etc. Maybe the generous donors can leverage their funds to move the system this way either directly or by a voucher-type system where parents direct the funds.
For a simple example, why not parents decide which teachers will get additional funds that are coming from outside schools. This will ensure that good teachers stay and not so good leave voluntarily.
> Many teachers give their lives to their students and work 24/7.
I find this more true for the (way) older generation, either because of the harder times they grew up, or maybe just because of natural selection and only great teachers stayed in profession that long. Among younger ones, I see (often, not all of course) more pragmatic interests – feed the family, spend reasonable time/effort, this is the only job she is qualified to do… This may be in part as the only challenges of latest generations were such (pre-covid) or maybe, it is just a phase and they’ll grow up, I don’t know.
Studies, studies – you and government will produce a lot of studies, and then legislate them, and then discover failures. If you are able to create a market for something, then thousands of smart people motivated by profit will solve all those problems for you. When was the last time (before recently), you worried about supply chains, figuring out where to find a gas station, making sure tires fit the car, etc? Millions of decisions made by businesses. You only find out about them when government intervenes and has to solve it. See how now inflation is being blamed on big businesses and will lead to further legislature to address it.
I remember watching House of Commons where prime minister was asked – why there are not enough hospital beds in some small English town, and he was able to recite numbers of current beds and how many they will build soon. This is nonsense when you get when politicians are trying to do what businesses should.
Problem with people like Cruz that they are talkers. There is no evidence that I know of that he can manage anything. Same as Barack or Brandon.
Joe Lieberman just had an oped in WSJ that Senate should go back to regular order and deal with issues instead of playing politics. Maybe he can run, from either party.
GH, that wiki page looked like an objective source, thanks for pushing me to find it.
As to sarcastic point, there are definite perceptions about parties. In addition to crime – based on all the defund police calls, the same small business survey says that 87% of R businessmen think that their party is good for business, while only 63% of D think that theirs is … But I don’t think these perceptions will convince you or, more importantly D- politicos. Most of them seem to think that their only problem is perception – that they don’t explain their wonderful ideas, they just need to explain better (and “educate”) the stubborn electorate. Sad.ujm > That’s really the entire case
I don’t think you proved that. Here I am suggesting to consult actual free Cubans, many of whom have relatives back on the island and know the situation. For some reason, they seem to be adamant to be against supporting the regime. But maybe, as in other cases, we can come up with approaches that are both helping Cubans and not supporting the regime? Maybe beaming free internet, increasing information services, sending food & medicine directly to dissidents or just random Cubans? For example, parachuting food, clothes, and unlocked phones? US is pretty close to Cuba to be able to do that.
Gadol > a disproportionate percentage of those convicted of corporate bribery and violations of the FCPA are also self-identified Republicans
What are the numbers, specifically. Anecdotally, I do not see different attitudes towards honesty based on party affiliation. Here is what I found:
A wiki page listing convicted politicians has 73 Rs and 58 Ds after 1990. All republicans in early 1900s. Starting 1960 to 2000, and looking just at Congress – 2 to 1 Ds, and after 2000 about equal.
here is some data from 2020 small business survey: 40% are R, 28% are D. Other surveys have 40% R and 22% D. Bigger difference among bigger business CEOs – 60% donated to R, 20% to D.
So, if politicians belong to parties in the same ratio as either small businessmen or CEOs, then D-s are more corrupt.
I am afraid that there will be lots of R-s that will talk like Trump but without his business and negotiation skills. We don’t need that, but it could be popular. I would then vote for a more mainstream R- like Rubio or even Romney, despite the latter showing bad judgment in last 5 years.
Maybe bias for “no sanctions” is due to modern era of “free trade”. This is reflected in statements “sanctions do not work” that are to be proven or disproven. This free trade era is due to having a large number of countries that are not at war with each other. This bias is not applicable to unfriendly countries, and we need to analyze the issue on merits. In your life, when you have a choice between a nice store owner and business partner and a bully, you would surely choose the former.
What is the reason NOT to have sanctions and strengthen a bad regime?
Cigars? You need to vacation there? Access cheap health care? Drive a vintage 1950 car?
A possible case may be made that trade will make life of Cuban people better and, maybe, eventually a better regime. Here is where I would trust the Cubans on what is a better option.ujm > Cuban-American man on the street demands sanctions
I would trust his opinion. A person who knows what he is talking about. OK to layer it over with some foreign policy wisdom, but not to reject it.
YS> fear of nuclear power
I agree. It would do the world a lot of good if people trying to achieve something propose reasonable measures that appeal to others at the top of their list. I may vote for reasonable subsidies to electric cars, coupled with new nuclear plants and favorable leases or pipelines for oil & gas to make us stronger now viz. our enemies. I would also support more money for public schools, if it were coupled with vouchers to charters/religious/online schools. Instead, we are getting push for expensive policies that only appeal to extreme people.
Ctl All new residential (1-4 family) construction will be required to have one rapid charging station for each two units. Again, all at no cost to the owner
Please clarify how it will be at no cost: town will provide land, equipment, and electricity? And Chinese will pay the taxes? And of course, poor people need to have affordable housing now, but we will do sun powered cars first
As an illustration, how great government helps people – Jeff Bezos is donating $130 MLN dollars to help poor communities write GRANT APPLICATIONS so that they have a chance to receive money allocated by Congress in recent giveaways. They do not stand a chance of getting the money without the assistance. That is, in addition to millions of dollars we pay to support the gov employees, we now need $130 mln dollars to get that money back from them.
>> “The best economy is capitalism, free and mostly unfettered and ulittered with corruption from government handouts.”
> Our entire street and highway system was built by the government.
And we have government running the Navy also. There is no contradiction. Whatever is impossible to be done through market means, is done by the government. And, in US, should be done by appropriate government: your street should be built by the town and highway by the state.
The only reason we have so much enmity in federal, especially Presidential, elections, is the multitude of issues that the President is responsible for. Medicine, tax credits, building roads – all of these should be done by states, and everyone can choose a state to live in at minimal cost. Presidential debates should be limited to foreign affairs and defense budget. Boring.
ujm, good question here. According to google – steel, heavy industry, coal, wheat. Maybe they have vodka instead of Stoli? Boycott NordStream 2 for one that will deprive them from Russian transit fees and allow Russians to attack without hurting their gas customers in Western Europe.
charlie > The problem is that the mainstream center-left and the mainstream center-right failed here.
By GDP numbers, Chile outperformed other South American companies on the strength of the market economy created by Pinochet’s economic team – consistenly with different center parties. They may have people who need a better social net, but their counterparts have much more people who are caught in that net of poverty. Note that most of countries that fell under socialist dictatorships – stay there for decades with no end, not like post-Pinochet.
2scents> Powerlines outside of major cities are fragile.”
Solution a. Solar panels with battery packs.
Solution b. Gas powered backup generator.So, more money spent .. I have no problem with private companies trying to build something new and sell it. Still, most of it comes out of huge gov subsidies and lots of gov activities going to conferences, suppressing oil & gas, etc. President, especially this one, has that many hours he is awake. He spends this time on climate change and forgets to save our Afghani partners. Maybe if he would listen to a couple of more alternative intel briefs, he would save some people.
Even privately – instead of buying a Tesla, you could have hired a private tutor for your kids, or not worked that time and learnt.
We just discussed – you do not return lost money to a non-Jewish person, at least in the case where non-Jews are abusive of us. This does not mean you should steal from him, you should just not do him a favor that strengthens him. In the modern world, we are free to do business with whomever we want and patronizing someone’s business is doing them a favor as this strengthen him – not just by the profit he is earning, but he can pay his own workers, and develop stronger industries.
We did not lose much from boycotting Cuba, there are other places where you can travel. We should not do business with other dictators also. Instead, buy from countries that are standing up to them – Israel, of course, Taiwan, Ukraine, etc.
RebE > a person is responsible for one’s actions even though its was unintentional.
We hold professionals not accountable for honest mistakes. How many times in her career she got the right weapon out? thousands? how many of those she saved an innocent person’s life somewhere by arresting a criminal? Maybe she was overworked with all the recent chaos and protests and did not realize .. I did not follow the case, but if this is a one-off incident and she did not have other similar cases, this is not fair. How many will now retire in order not to risk their lives for others?
If you are saving people, would it be an issue to shave your beard, even if it gives you an easier fit into the mask? Will then community look down at him or, otherwise, here goes Shmerel who had a beard for 40 years and now had strength to shave it off in order to save those of us who are not careful with lighting candles and using unsafe platas for heilike shabbos?
common > fervor in the way they approach masks etc and have a very nonchalnt take on frumkiet and yiddishkiet.
in case, I am irritating someone’s nostrils, let me clarify unstated: my concern is yiddishkeit. Any unscripted event sent to us by Hashem reveals people’s thinking beyond the formal training they got in school. So, when people start saying: I don’t care about others, let them protect themselves; don’t listen to the psak, the rabbi is senile; this is obviously not yiddishkeit I know. The other part where I probably irritate you is listing cases where I suggest violating usual Jewish conventions: I bring them to point out cases where there is a trade-off with other, neglected, values. This is 1% of cases, I am not going to write here about 99% cases where there is no question. And you would not like to read me talking about me being inspired by natilas yadaim in the morning.
> turning their focus to faster charging rather than extended range.
This is simply a good slogan. Obviously, shorter range means faster charging. If you work from home, you can charge the whole day!
Even if all of this makes sense, we need to know proportions and where to focus. Feds were not able to stockpile covid tests and will provide them in January for the December peak, they are still “discussing” whether to pass military hardware from Afghanistan to Ukraine, inflation is “temporary”, they are asking oil companies to increase production, despite their efforts to make this production lose money. In all of these cases, we see that the government lacks a foresight two months ahead, while they are solving future problems.
charlie > because blackouts only occur about once every 20-25 years in places other than Texas.
that is not true. Powerlines outside of major cities are fragile. I once was in a very-electric house during a major wind event in the winter. There was no electricity, no internet, no stove, and no bathroom until the power was repaired. With the electric car, I would not be able to leave also.
rw > Did all of bnei yisroel throughout those times err
maybe people on purpose did not draw the right menorah to prevent building forbidden replicas?
Ok, Marx, but did Freud do wrong to you? In his book on psychology of humor, half of the jokes he brings are Jewish ones. In many cases, I did not realize they are THAT old.
Beitza tells us that Hashem gave us Torah to train us in derech eretz and limiting ourselves. Otherwise, we are have so much hutzpa (azut) that we would not leave space for other nations to live in.
Obvious corollary is that Jews without Torah would mess up the world … It does not matter whether it is their own fault or their grandparents, as long as they have national azut and lack Torah restraints, this is bound to happen.
Second corollary is that those who learn torah but somehow do not acquire derech eretz are not much better.
RebE > Why isn’t the first pair afraid that a second pair will come
First pair decided to go to court and accuse someone. They have time to case a victim and find an appropriate time where they are not likely to be seen by others. It is like pickpocket, or Putin on the border with Ukraine – they choose where and when. So, having a second pair is not very likely.
Second pair are people who happen to see a specific two people (first pair) at the specific time (of the crime). They were not able to choose a moment and location that will ensure their alibi. All following pairs are the same.
We, and our government, need some humility: they are not able to predict packed ports and that covid tests will be required before people travel, not a month after. At the same time, they are bravely spending their time and attention, and our money, on solving future problems.
RebE > There is a difference between socialism and communism.
says a Hungarian refugee?! This is a line from a communist schoolbook.
ujm, I think my logic would work for more pairs:
the first pair is least reliable, as I described before, because it is easier for them to cheat selecting a target and time. The rest are more reliable than first and all equally reliable to each other, as they all need to testify about given people and time.Let’s for simplicity say value (1) = 1, value (2) and later = 10.
For 2nd pair, easy 10 > 1.
For 3rd pair, their value is 10 + 1 from first pair, 11>10
for 4th pair 10 + 10 (4th, 2nd) > 10 + 1 (3rd, 1st)Yserbius, rules for new variant are unclear. Looking at preventing serious disease, you may be right that high vaccination/previous disease by itself will prevent worst outcomes. Masks will limit transmission. Usefulness of masks may depend on SD and ventilation …
I wonder whether high transmissibility means that those who are generally relaxed should plan for the easiest way to go thru infection: a vaccine in addition to initial dose or previous infection and plan for some exposure under light conditions – so that as they are getting infected, they are not getting a huge dose by sitting in an office for hours with people…
to those with “natural infection”, they should follow recommendations for booster similar to those with vaccination. Antibodies are at about same level 6 months after either event (vaccination higher first, but declining faster)
charlie > other candidate is a supporter of one of the most brutal dictators of the 20th century
I am not following Chile politics closely, but pre-election coverage in US was hilarious – OMG, look at the right-winger, without even mentioning any problems with the opposite side. You are really elevating Pinochet too high. I believe 1-3 thousand of people were killed by his regime. Any of central American revolutions took 10,000s of life in a year, and I think you are forgetting Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Kims, Campuchia were also in 20th century
> once beis din determines that both groups are equally trustworthy the chidush is we beelive the second pair
Maybe a following sevorah: the first pair appeared to testify on their own. They had a chance to fit their testimony to the person and time of their choosing. They had time to consider all circumstances and, thus, it is pretty possible, they had a chance to frame someone. After this event is fixed, now second pair needs to address two specific people at a given time. The time that they have a reason and a possibility to frame them is much lower.
GH> “mask-on/mask-off” comedy under the current rules where you open a bottle of water
I am not defending a specific policy, but the idea is to reduce risk while minimizing inconvenience to the public. Obviously, no free-loving person would sacrifice his lunch to protect some stranger. So, thus the rules. Presuming that 80% of public have masks on 80% of the time, this reduces risk a lot.
See the MI report I mention above comparing school with and without masks. Significant difference even presumably enforcement was not 100% and they also had breakfast, lunch, and recess. Report actually had a group of “partial mask mandate” – and it was much closer to masked than to the no mask.
> If only that were true
Note the word “reasoned”. ;} For example, Health gave me a bunch of interesting websites, I went and read them.
Syag,
an interesting case of mask and public discourse: some articles today quote a michigan study where schools with no rules now have same transmission as schools with rules. Hurrah!Click on the study and you see a very simple timeline: both types of school started at the same rate in august, then masked schools stayed 20-30% below the unmasked and then all schools experienced sharp increase in November becoming equal by thanksgiving and then all falling down together. So, if you care about number of kids who were infected (and transmitted to families, etc) you would understand that total number of sick people is way less in masked case. If you care about making a silly point – you point to the plot and say – see they are now the same.
Same presentation shows 13x higher rate of death for unvaxed v vaxed, standardized by age, and a plot of direct correlation between state cumulative death rate and vaccination rates. None of this is quoted, of course, in those childish articles.
Syag, we had looong discussions here with some of these guys and they all refer to websites, inner knowledge and personal choice. I was asking whether anyone was told this by their regular physician and heard babkes back. I am sure there are some, but they do not add up to the numbers of those who stand by those positions. Our religion makes a stand whether to drink a cup in 1 or 2 or 3 gulps. Surely, we can consider risks to life as religious issue. I am not insisting that my position is right, I am just throwing arguments out there and always happy to hear a reasoned argument back.
Re:omicron. What I read so far: most data so far is on transmission that seems not to be slowed much by JJ/AZ/Chinese/Russian vaccines, only in part by 3rd dose of mRNAs. And seems the same for “natural immunity”.
I first thought that “3rd” means “recent”, but I saw slides comparing 2nd and 3rd on the same day after the dose and difference was large. It is now admitted that having 3-4 weeks between 1st and 2nd doses were not ideal, Brits are now recommending 3 months for kids between vaccines. Maybe this explains decrease after 2nd dose. As to serious cases, everyone seem to hope that all previous exposures help, but the data from the field is not in, it will come in several weeks.
>> “The focus on anti-masking, anti-vaxxing is really very childish. ”
Syag> No kidding. Glad you finally realize it.What I mean that people who protest very basic public health measures, such as masks and vaccines, are behaving childishly.
I have no idea what you mean by “follow their doctors”. 98% of doctors are vaccinated and probably 100% are working in masks. Are you saying that 30% of the population that are not vaccinated or not wearing masks are following recommendation of their actual doctors? This does not sound probable, and I was asking people here and not getting response. Btw, as of today, most of US is under omicron that partially avoids previous immunity both vaccine and disease. Do you expect people who touted their “natural immunity” to change their opinion? I don’t.
Dictators/bullies always ask – what about just giving up this little, and we argue between each other whether give in or not, instead of confronting them. How about we turn the table around and ask those leaders – what do you want: money, women, power? How about we take a mid-size island in a Pacific, put there all Putins, Xis, Kims with their entourage and have live pageants and TV shows with whatever they desire. They can kill their enemies in videogames and win elections on TV. UN in their charter will guarantee their safety and $1 Tln annually for this.
This is useful. Have a list of ten and then you can measure level of paranoia on a scale from 1 to 10:
if you get 9, call 911. if you can get 7, talk to your doctor, 4 – worry, 2 – you are not watching enough TV, 0 – you are a tam/simpleton, check if your wallet is still there. [I am 3].Orange > HEPA filters didn’t change it then and still won’t change it.
I am not 100% sure, but I believe that pre-pandemic filtering was insufficient, it was known that it made infection go around, but nobody cared. As I did not research it in detail, I hesitate to claim it, so consider this an opinion.
> For now, I will wear a mask
As was already mentioned, not clear how masking became a symbol of rebellion. We wear a lot of stuff that restrict our movement – from socks to hats. There are so many serious topics to discuss about Covid: medical, educational, work, helping those who need help in any of those. The focus on anti-masking, anti-vaxxing is really very childish. Sad that the country is holding by this, and even sadder that our community does.
When we try to imagine lifestyles and environment changing over time, we often fail to imagine simple things. Consider, for example, Native Americans who lived a pre-mabul lifestyle and had seemingly no viruses and no immunity to them (leading to a disaster when they encountered those).
Some explain that it is partly due to lack of domesticated animals and, thus, lack of viruses jumping between animals and people. If pre-mabul generations were vegetarians, then the same would apply. I may be taking these midrashim too literally, but it is interesting to see how life conditions can change easily.