Always_Ask_Questions

Gadol, they both were looking to address the same problem- rapid assimilation of American Jewry, they just had different ways to address it. Note that these different ways applied to different types of people. R Kotler mostly worked with unassimilated Yidden, many coming from very traditional backgrounds. R Soloveitchik taught college educated and their children. Without R Soloveitchik and Chabad, we would have lost even more Yidden to assimilation. The only “problem ” is that some of r Kotler students might be interested in the other approaches, so it became necessary to disparage opposition. We’re R Hirsh export his approach to Vilna, he would be treated the same. R Salanter says so whenhe visited Germany: were I to have women in Torah classes in Lita, I’d be denounced.

ujm, do you know where was the discussion between R Kotler and R Soloveitchik regarding women serving in Israeli army happening? In a dorm? In Boston?

> ad hominem

it is not. I asked hakatan to expand on R Elchonon’s Torah and he is declining. Maybe he now decided to start a new thread and this will be great. Do you not find it strange when certain rabbis are only quoted in political context as if they are party representatives. This is demeaning to Talmidei Chachamim – as much as when selectively quoting some of them while claiming “all gedolim say”. We saw in some more serious discussions that, for example, Ohr Sameach and Netziv had way more nuanced view of early zionists.

in general, it is a feature of modern discussions to selectively support their side and hope that the truth will be understood from unlimited “free speech”. This is not a bad idea, but well below the Torah standard of emes where one should acknowledge all views and then advocate for his own. An unfortunate sign of assimilation even among those who claim to be against anything goyish.

To clarify on the differences: in 1940s, R Soloveitchik indeed focused on working with American Jews. He writes that these educated young Jews are not getting help from either reform, for obvious reasons, nor from recently arrived European Rabbis, who are not able to relate to American Jews, including those educated in sciences and philosophy. Wider, his goal for YU was to train in an organized way congregational rabbis who can deal with local issues: marriages, davening, kashrus, parsha dvar Torah and in this way raise the level and prevent assimilation among American Jews. He even suggests to Mizrachi to change their effort in America from collecting money and people for EY to helping educate American Jews. Reasoning: Jews in Israel will stay Jewish, but next generation of American children will assimilate unless an effort is made to teach them. He was not thinking that only his approach is the right one. He is very appreciative of Chabad efforts (under previous L Rebbe) to send shluchim to small towns all over US.

I don’t think there was nothing objectionable in this activity for anyone who cared about Yidden. Possibly later when YU approach attracted also those in the orbit of other rabbis who worked with “frum” communities only, then these rabbis became not comfortable and had to convince their students that R Soloveitchik approach is not appropriate in order to protect their own path.

Evalimoshavlo, hilarious! I indeed heard this from school officials: don’t worry, trust us, we know better what your kid needs.

Al pi halakha?! I am longing for the times when this site was seriously moderated.

YU still has talmidei chachamim, you can read and listen to their divrei Torah on yutorah.org and make your own conclusions. As everywhere, some are better than others.

If you know people who refuse recognize talmidei chachamim from other schools, maybe you need to check what happened to them.

YYA > Pre WWI, when it was easier to immigrate to the USA, the matzav in most parts of Jewish Europe wasn’t as bad.

A good point. While WW1 was a calamity, it was an event that passed. Russian revolution in 1917-18 was the turning point in Eastern Europe – and another several years to understand that this is a long-term change and not another calamity.

Before WW1 there was still the same question we are discussing here – whether to embrace or oppose modernity. At that time, the score was very much negative – most of efforts to embrace were not successful. The choice was stark – stay poor and observant in Russian Poland or become affluent and assimilate in America. Of course, when Jews ended up in America, they started fixing the problem – whether R Soloveitchik way or R Kotler’s way, what all these efforts had in common – strengthening community in American environment. This seems to be repeating the pattern of Yaakov – reluctant to go to Mitzrayim until forced and then, al pi midrash, sending Yehudah to establish yeshiva. Hashem, of course, started preparing earlier – by sending Yosef there. Ideally, of course, rabonim would be sending students to America early on to establish institutions. Chofetz Chaim had some vision – he writes a book for such emigrants – Nidchei Yisroel.

Again, this shows that Jews are not perfect in responding to historical events and we all should try to contribute to search for solutions.

HaKatan, your frequent posts achieve the opposite result – instead of increasing respect to gedolim like R Elchonon,
you make him into a political figure whose mission of life, Ch’V was to protect Zionism. I suggest you start posting
some of the R Elchonon’s Torah, his yeshiva building efforts, etc so that the readers start taking him in context of his achievements and positions.

YYA> t’s true that since he wrote that new options have opened geared specifically for observant Jews, but those who insist on only the most prestigious degree from a regular university cannot hang their hat on Rav Twersky…

These are gain extremes – Most “observant” options are, as they say, “a good start”, but usually give very minimal education. They are often overpriced 3rd rated colleges or online “diploma mills” that do not teach anything. Again, they are a realistic way forward for many. I agree on “top universities” especially in humanities. But there are other options:
– solid online colleges that teach as 2nd (not 3rd) rate programs, equivalent to what they teach “in person”.
– local, again 2nd rate/state colleges where kids live at home
– evening programs at 2nd and even 1st rate local colleges, where students are often older people
– YU (combined with 1+ first year of the above)

> He also never self-identified as ‘Modern’ in terms of מדע לשמה… He knew and used whatever he needed to do his job and help people, even if that was a lot, and that’s it…

There is probably truth to that, but his choice to work primarily with religious Christians is “interesting”. He somehow found it meaningful to spend years fixing minds of priests and nuns. I don’t think this was just “for a parnosah”.

YYA, when you are talking about philosophy, I won’t argue much with that. I am not pro or contra. As I said, I’d be happy to see Jewish community absorb first non-controversial ideas of modernity while arguing about philosophy. R Twersky suggests in some speech that yeshiva bochrim should learn physiology to appreciate maase Hashem, and then adds – doesn’t have to be at school, do it after school. Realistically speaking, if we want community to absorb ideas, it got to be in school or some other institutions.

The reason to learn from Western civilization v. Hindu is pretty simple – Western civilization is tremendously successful in the last several hundred years changing lives of billions of people. We all use fruits of that.

a couple of relevant quotes from Rav Soloveitchik about modernity. How is this affected by crazies on campuses?

We have always considered ourselves to be an inseparable part of humanity and we were ever ready to accept the divine challenge, Fill the earth and subdue it (Gen. 1:28). We have never proclaimed the philosophy of contemptus or odium seculi [rejection of the secular world]. We have steadily
maintained that involvement in the creative scheme of things is mandatory.

Men of old who could not fight disease and succumbed in multitudes to yellow fever or any other plague with degrading helplessness could not lay claim to dignity. Only the man who builds hospitals, discovers therapeutic techniques, and saves lives is blessed with dignity . . . The brute is helpless, and therefore not dignified. Civilized man has gained limited control of nature and has become in certain respects her master, and with his mastery he has .attained dignity as well. His mastery has made it possible for him to act in accordance with his responsibility.

YYA > How would one do that?

From your description, I think you are doing your part, this is great. I don’t think you should feel that existence of anti-religious extremists is a sign that you are not doing the right thing, the question is how “average” people see it. And, as Gadol mentions, it should work both ways: your depiction of “modern” institutions is also in the extreme. I am sure all problems you describe exist and people who choose jobs should look carefully what they are selecting. I, for example, deal mostly with technology and the end result of the technology aligns well with what I think Torah wants from us and 23 genders are not relevant. I also run my own business so I don’t have to depend on someone else’s value judgment (idea picked up from one of my Teachers from Baltimore who publicly said that he does not want to join his mossad with a bigger one – whose rep was sitting right nearby). But if we are talking of the essence – using chochma, I don’t think academic craziness should be of concern – as long as you know how to filter information out (or someone can do it for you). Try mussar & mikvah from Steipler’s advise. Rambam used Muslim philosophy and science – but he also ran away from Spain when crazy Muslim were in charge.

YYA> Sarah Shenirer didn’t just run ahead with her idea on her own, she did seek guidance from the Belzer Rebbe, and not much later got the emphatic support of the Imrei Emes of Ger,

From what I read, she got her original idea from a German Rav she met in Vienna as a refugee during Great War (and first skeptical seeing a “Rav” in a modern suit). She got a brocha from Beltzer Rebbe when her brother submitted a kvittel in an effort to convince her NOT to go with this – and was surprised by the answer. And she also brought at least 3 German university-educated ladies to help her develop the curriculum. I am not sure how well knows this history is to the BY students, but maybe the whole point was to launder the German curriculum thru acceptable channels 🙂

>> [Chofetz Chaim] “His solution: an article in a Yiddishe paper summarizing halochos of mikva on one page”
> That’s all he ever did? Not exactly.

Of course. I am just mentioning one of the specific letters. He wrote me. I am not piling it on Chofetz Chaim, he had an understanding of issues – not only women and immigrants, soldiers (mahane isroel book), but also calling on to keep housing prices low for great war refugees; to support Jews in USSR with packages and fasts, etc. My point was only that others, not just gedolim, can and should participate in developing solutions. I am not of the view that Rabbis should be ignored, but that we all have a responsibility.

> For starters, because ‘contemporary issues’ are vastly more susceptible to interference from the good old Yetzer Hara than halachic discussions spelled out in the Gemara…

Absolutely, we benefit from Gemora and other sources that they help us develop the approach. Still, we need at some point to proceed to deal with current issues. There is nothing new here – amoraim were also combining learning what was old then with dealing with contemporary society. Maybe the difference is that changes happen now at much faster rate, so issues and decisions might change in 10-20 years. It calls both to be a little more conservative in changes, but also paying more attention to what is happening.

YYA > The bottom line is, IMHO it’s only a matter of time before the MO world in general, not just YU, will have to make a ‘binary’ choice (pun intended)

I am sure there are places that try to keep with the “Joneses” in all these things. I am not talking about that at all. I am not talking about that. Just about basics of reading/writing/math/science/professions. Rambam learned greek and “modern” Arab science without getting involved in their toevot.

PS And as you might see from current US politics, there is a strong backlash from part of the society to some of those things. Whether Jews should be getting involved in cultural issues, I don’t know. I personally stay out.

> If someone (for example) doesn’t go to the army because his Rebbe holds that is not good for him,
…
> That isn’t a חיסרון in the Chafetz Chaim ח״ו, but the initiative had to come from the one who was zocheh to it.

I do understand, of course, that yeshiva bochrim may be sincere in their actions and may indeed be correct provided their Rebbe’s position is halachikaly sound as it might be.

But do you see a stirah here between your 2 statements? If the rebbe is not infallible, then there is a place for non-rebbes to come up with solutions.
Somehow, learning how to divide a talit that two people are holding is worthy learning, but a contemporary issue is relegated to “let the Rebbe tell us”. The way I understand halocha develops is that multiple people try to resolve the issue and it propagates to the senior rabonim. Told here before: My Rebbe was teaching that Polish responsa at some century stopped being about business ethics (ehrliche) and only about kashrus (frum) [coincided with overall decline of Poland]. I asked: “so it is _your_ fault”? [Rabbis not writing teshuvos]. He responded: “no, it is _your_ fault” [people not asking right shailos].

BTW, Chofetz Chaim was not oblivious, he knew and and tried to resolve the problem. His solution: an article in a Yiddishe paper summarizing halochos of mikva on one page, asking women who know how to read – to read this article to those who women who do not. No suggestion to teach them reading, he did not think it is possible, I guess. Not that nothing was done at the time – R Shapiro Lublin yeshiva that fed students, daf yomi; R Moshe Soloveitchik was involved with some “modern” “kosher” schools, don’t know details; Ponevezh Rav opened a school for girls that has good enough secular education that he out-competed a non-religious school [as the biographer writes bashfully – a school that satisfied rich parents].

YYA, I think we agree more than disagree.
> I used the term ‘frum’ but what I really meant and should have said is ‘ehrlich’.
Yes! Unfortunately, I heard this word once in last 10 years …

> Klug
I think Chofetz Chaim meant that in modern times, one needs to know how to deal with yetzer hara. Just insisting on “frum’ is not enough.
My translation: know law, economics, psychology to build right institutions and navigate thru life.

> Mitteler Rebbe
I presumed it was him but didn’t want to impugn in case it was not. I agree with your interpretation. I am not at the Mitteler Rebbe level, but my hearing also decreases when my better half asks to take the garbage out. There are halochos that one should not take a second job at night to be in full strength for the day job. This situation is different from just sitting learning and missing someone passing by. If the Mitteler Rebbe took the job of watching the baby (Tzemach Tzedek?) seriously (the way mothers do) and learn “when he can”, he would not have gotten in this exalted state. He was endangering the whole Chabad dynasty.

Anyone hear with direct experience of receiving letters that their schools not passing the test? Would like to hear their thoughts about this subject.

Yankele, sorry, I misspelled RambaN 🙂

This starts with the discussion that Avos observed mitzvos but Yaakov married 2 sisters and made matzevah, Amram married his aunt …

Breishis 26:5
For the Commandments are the ordinance of the G-d of the land, even though we have been charged with personal duties in all places. Our Rabbis have already alluded to this secret, and I will yet call your attention to it with the help of G-d.

Vaikra 18:25
These [mitzvot] are not compulsory in the Exile with the exception of personal obligations, such as tefilin and mezuzot. And the Sages explain that this is so in order that [mitzvot] will not be novel to us upon our return to the Land of Israel, because the primary observance of all of the mitzvot [can be performed by] those living in G-d’s land.

YYA > the fine yungeleit in Lakewod, at least those I know (some are mishpacha), DO NOT have any such attitude חס ושלום לא תהא כזאת בישראל. They have better middos and better things to do with their time.

Congrats on mishpoha. I also have good friends and teachers from there. But there are others too. I was discussing someone with a Lwood person (ltoeles) and started mentioning, admiring that that person was at YU (at a top shiur by a R’Y) and then in Lakewood and now in another place – really very broad horizons. I could not finish my sentence though as the response came “YU is not a problem for him”. I frankly presume that the speaker would not be shining at that top YU shiur, but I don’t think he understands it.

YYA > Forgive me, Reb Yid, but you seem quite sure of your own righteousness when discussing Gedolim from previous generations… Some of your posts don’t exactly exude ahava towards other Jews…

I think I do. The fact that not everything every Rav said turned out perfect, does not mean disrespect or lack of love. As I say above, I see a lot of value in charedi approach. The fact that Chofetz Chaim did not think about schools for girls is a fact – that I tried to verify by reading a couple of volumes of his letters, but it does not take away all seforim and mussar lessons we have from him.

> BTW, Ahavas Yisroel applies also to Jews who are MORE frum then you, not just those who are LESS (and therefore make you feel more comfortable about yourself…)

I agree, except disagreeing with MORE or LESS (putting aside Chofetz Chaim who said – people say that in our time, one should be frum/frum/and then klug, but I say klug/klug and then frum). Chabad Alter Rebbe once went down to his son’s apartment (future Rebbe, I presume) and saw him deep in learning while a baby left by the wife to be watched was crying. Rebbe reprimanded his son for not paying attention to the baby. Metaphorically, not paying attention to your brothers, to your own obligations, to Hashem’s world is not necessarily more observant. I learned sometimes with charedi type people and sometimes with “modern”. Yes, there are more rishonim quoted in charedi discussions, but there is way more in depth discussion of the sugya in the “modern” shiur, where participants include top engineers/doctors/college professors – both by an occasional Aristotle or Josephus quote, but also by applying their seichel. It would laughable to consider first group frummer than the second.

YYA > your profound השגה of ‘Emes of Torah’,

There is nothing profound here. This is direct from or direct implication from what the founders and current leaders say. The goal (and a very worthy one) is to protect the public. Protection means keeping separate from things that might be dangerous. This is part of the approach and we see here how this is applied to any topic: college/army/non-Jews/leaving yeshiva/zionists … There is a lot of good reasons for that. But it implies that every Talmid Chacham that disagrees is called an apikoires, because otherwise students might get wrong ideas in their head. And, again, you see it here – these negative opinions are not simply out of ignorance, they are being taught in order to protect the students.

R Salanter was wondering about the same. He admired, I think, R Hildesheimer Torah class in Germany that was attended by women but said – if I try something like that in Lita, I’ll be kicked out. So, that idea had to wait for Ms Schenirer to adopt from German Jews.

YYA, I am not sure about your dig at “modern”. Are you talking about the YU club? First, YU as a whole is a thing in itself, not a halachik institution. And was. R Soloveitchik was negotiating a contract w/ YU in 1930s as a total outsider – while his father was the Rav there … and they had their disagreements. When he writes to defend an idea of YU medical school, he mentions that his argument is b’dieved and that he was not consulted l’hathila. Second, they were, and I believe, still fighting this, so it is clearly not something they, ahem, embrace.

YYA > Lakewood in the 40s-50s was also nothing like how you describe it, both in its goals and its modus operandi. What happened to Lakewood decades later is a different subject.

Not sure where you are correcting me. Early on, Lakewood could not find post-HS students because they were going to college. R Kotler saw that this was pursuit of the material gains at the cost of Yiddishkeit and made a (successful) effort to reverse the trend and make it honorable to learn.

YYA> What on Earth are you talking about putting Rav Hirsch zt”l in the same sentence as Mendelssohn

R Hirsh disagrees with you in 19 letters: (18:8)
When the external yoke began to grow lighter, and the spirit felt itself freer, then arose a brilliant, respect-inspiring personality, Mendelssohn, which by its commanding influence has led the later development up to this day. This commanding individual, who had not drawn his mental development from Judaism, who was great chiefly in philosophical disciplines, in metaphysics, and aesthetics, who treated the Bible only philologically and aesthetically, and did not build up Judaism as a science from itself, but merely defended it against political stupidity and pietistic Christian audacity, and who was personally an observant Jew, accomplished this much, that he showed the world and his brethren that it was possible to be a strictly religious Jew and yet to shine distinguished as the German Plato.