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some heimishe terrorists would be deterred by seeing guns and move on to softer targets. Not that helps the society in general.
CTlawyer, those of us who live in large cities get more criminal cases than civil, unfortunately.
And I did get dismissed usually from civil cases as they are long, and I always have something lined up – yom tov, work trip, vacation. I even suggested to the judge that it is only a minor inconvenience – tickets are non-refundable, but the wife and kids are fully capable of travelling on their own. Did not tell that the tickets were on Spirit and was looking for ward to a quiet fortnight vacation in a jury box, but the judge promptly sent me back to the pool, unfortunately.
> i am familiar with a yeshiva bochir called for jury duty recently who said he was a racist
I presume the jusge phoned p the Rosh Yeshiva and the bochur was dismissed both from jury and yeshiva for not knowing why Hashem created one Man from whom all others came.
Lil froggie, it is great that you represented Jewish people proudly, but a yid with a degree would also have a place there and maybe able relate the Gemora he was learning (probably on his phone) to the points of law, maybe opening some new vistas to those lawyers, etc. For example, discuss the difference between Roman caveat emptor and Jewish personal responsibility to not harm others.
Another – well recommended – way to deal with electronics is to have it in the open in public room, whether in yeshiva or home. Maybe I don’t need filters because my kids come by with their issues at any time.
it is also extremely easy to get valuable items from stores for free. I choose not to disclose the methods here, connect with me direct. 6 days a week, not on shabbos koidesh.
This Ploni b’ Shapiro article starts well quoting Rambam and R Hirsh, descending into political issues that he favors, not about the communal issues. Second reference seems to be in topic, thanks.
But, anyway – same as failures in charedi community – social failures in MO communities do not take away from Rambam and R Hirsh views. Confronting mdernity is a challenge and, so far (after just 200 years) nobody got a perfect solution. So, YU having some inappropriate club does not excuse a charedi person not passing his SATs (and other way around). It is always easier to point problems in others.
In the last Parsha, Moshe gives his famous kal ve’homer: if Jews did not listen to me, then Pharaoh will also not and goes quiet – apparently realizing how weak this praise of Jews is, just better than Pharaoh. R Avigdor Miller expands on that saying it is not enough to be just better than others …
I once was “excused” by a career criminal himself. State and his lawyer questioned me and were satisfied with my answers, I left towards the jury box, but then was called back. The criminal himself looked at me and then advised his lawyer to dismiss me. Don’t know whether he did not trust Jews in general or disagreed with my CR posts.
lakewhut > Everyone does.
Please be aware that google search is personalized. Thus, it continues searching for thing similar to what you looked at before… I am curious, even envious, what you are finding out there. Usually, whatever I search for, I get either Jewish sites or academic papers or news… (I do have google safe filter on). Worst I saw was a reform sermon … I guess I would need to search for something inappropriate explicitly to see it. Thus, most people who use computers habitually for work, do not “stumble” into things. I am sure there are people who do search for something. But it is not much different from getting inappropriate magazines from a friend in the good old days.
Also, if someone is rich, then Hashem obviously thinks he is worth such a hard challenge, so even if he is not fully up to it, he deserves some respect and owe, especially from people whom Hashem does not want to trust with more than $100 at a time. You surely have no idea what their taavos are and how you will behave there. And if he is a self-made person, then he was in your place …
For example, many rich people have hard time finding friends and partners, as everyone is there “for the money”. Some of my “filthy rich” friends really enjoy a conversation with a friend from the time they were poor. I feel the same with hoshuve people from the Jewish community – there is a difference between those with whom I was learning when I had nothing, and those who are inviting a person from whom they can potentially benefit. I can’t even imagine how sad is the life of people who were born into rich families – do they even have real friends?!
about our role in a jury. This is a hard one. Someone more educated can preach here about “jury nullification” when jury uses their own judgment inappropriately. At the same time, I don’t think a Jew can make himself into a “part of the system”, “just doing my job”, disregarding “tzedek tzedek tirdof”.
So, I took the middle ground – I tried my best arguments to influence others, and then did not stand in the way. If I were to insist on hung jury, what is a chance that someone else will be as stubborn as I was in the next jury, so it would just prolong the show.
PS After the verdict, the judge told us that he was actually measured to have alcohol in his blood, but the law did not allow to give that information to the jury. So, that removed a couple of sfeikos from my argument.
dangerous drinking: indeed. If it were a case of clearly drunk driver and a dangerous event, I would probably be on a stricter side. In this case, the evidence was that he was stopped soon after leaving a bar (a bracelet on), stopped on an empty street, and then not able to walk a plank and recite alphabet backwards, I think. Not clear that he was a danger to anyone except himself and the utility pole. And maybe he did not even know English alphabet… sfek sfeika of 4th degree.
Again, I was surprised both by strictness of the jury in a generally liberal precinct and my own attitude. Maybe the prison system was in the back of my mind. The person will be risking his life and getting onto a path of crime, and abandoning his family … If he were to become an eved for 7 years, it would be an easier decision.
Several good questions here .. is it according to the Torah?
My understanding is that we do not require non-Jewish system to adhere to specific norms, such as what would a beis din decide for a non-Jew. As long it is trying to do justice. Jury system, as democracy, are obviously not the best decision sharpest mind can come up with, but it has the value to protect citizens from abuse by the powerful people. Interestingly, even in Nazi Germany, juries were acquitting some of the people who were caught listening to “enemy radios” and such.
With many social issues, chachomim proposed a solution and then judged it by results, and changed the system further as needed. So, here, we can judge the system by results – and they are reasonably good currently, I think, in terms of deciding guilt. One can argue with the prison system that does not seem to have any value beyond isolating the criminals. But overall, as long as the system tries to punish guilty and protect innocent, we should participate.
As to citizen ethics and morals, both jury and elections hinge on them. So, it makes educational system and media relevant to us. If population will get into communist or Nazi ideology, it will affect us directly.
Yachar koach in assisting the country in fulfilling a Noahide mitzva of providing justice.
In my personal experience, I was surprised to be the most liberal member of the jury while judging a possible drunk driver on an empty street at night who possibly did not speak English… While for me, drunk driving is just a bad thing to do, many others had personal experiences with misbehavior and loss in their communities and wanted to be as strict as Beit Shammai ever was. One self-identified as a pedestrian and simply hated all drivers who did not stop in front of her.
My last argument in favor of rahmonus was – that the person might be in some immigration status where he would be deported based on this very minor crime, and who knows whether he is also supporting a family. Nobody cared.
>> Unfettered internet and social media access? There’s a reason that such asifos are only in the Yeshiva world, while YU’s “yom iyun” featuring female and male speakers are always about politics or pareve topics like davening better etc
I think this discussion is somewhat meaningless, just want to mention that yo can turn this other way around: one groups learns about davening, while another about internet filters.
As to the substance, I am sure there are lots of people who need filters, but also there are more such people in charedi communities, given their lack of knowledge and experience with electronics.
You can see it here with many people bringing good knowledge of tosfos but not able to verify specious claims about current events with a google search.This is not such a big deal. Same as villages used to have asifos about cars on big highways before going to the markets, while city people drive those highways every day without asifos.
say, Hashem designates two people to be parnasim of the community.
One of them earns $20 mln and gives $1 mln – skimping on tzedoka. Another person, with similar abilities, does not aspire for much in the physical world, maybe even spends reasonable time in learning, and pays full $10 out of his $100 dollars. I can just see poor people lining up to thanks that second person for his generosity!
It would be reasonable to say that first person has a hesaron of $1 mln, or 50%, while the second has hesaron of $1,999,900 or 99.99%
I would think that in the case they are allowed, they are also required. You can also keep them locked in shul with your talles.
So, in olden times, the bochur, whatever his age was, would be given a year to prepare – get a house, have a job or business. It was often continue himself in the profession his father was, possibly getting funds from relatives to start on his own, if it was a capital-intensive business. The ketubah would be guaranteed, originally, from the set aside funds and later form all his properties. So, in the earlier system, the guy should at least have 200 zuz saved.
Maybe the same should be the criterion: he should at least be applying himself towards a way to support the family. Say, be in a medical school, or taking computer programming courses. If he has nothing except vague plans, what is a collateral for the ketubah?
lakewhut, indeed. When my daughters here about “learning Gemora” – they are against it. When I simply teach them what I learn from Gemora, they are pretty sharp and often mention ideas that both magid shiur and I missed, especially when the issue relates to interpersonal relationships. Remember (and many people write about it), that every gadol was early on taught by his mother, while the father was away learning or working.
Avira, you need to step this annoying habit of disparaging people who are not in your derech. You are preventing me from using proper references to the ideas, as I don’t want to have their names dirtied (Chofetz Chaim suggests not to praise people because of that, but just quote …).
Often, if I presume an argument without a name, it goes well through. In this case, Rav simply wrote a book in an easy style, summarizing Gemora in hundred small pages, not an easy feat.As to Rav’s sources, I know from personal experiences that his knowledge was vast, both in Jewish and non-Jewish sources. Besides asking him my own stupid questions on obscure topics, both in torah and otherwise, and getting sourced answers, I saw a professional historian confronting him about a detail in understanding of a modern philosopher after Rav mentioned him in passing, and Rav responded by a quote from his personal discussion with that philosopher and a reference to his own book where he discusses this particular issue. So, in this case, I can personally vouch for total emptiness of our criticism. This makes me discount your opinions where you might have more first or second-hand knowledge. So, I would suggest if you want to have your opinions respected, cut down on such knee-jerk reactions.
Tapuach may be some other fruit
Avram, I agree on either-or, we obviously deal with the legal side, I was just stressing the other part that describes social norms, etza tova, important focus in life, etc.
I am in no way advocating doing this now, and as the tosfos helpfully referred to by am.yeshivish says – we change the norms according to social conditions. Similarly, during gemora times there were different recommended ages for boys in EY and Bavel depending on ability to travel to learn after the marriage
n0, a year does not sound like a minimum, but rather as usual and maybe even maximum, with older girls (12.5+) typically taking less time. And after the date is set and the chatan does not show up, he starts paying for her upkeep.
I am not equating abilities. I am saying that people who have intellectual capabilities should not use them just for non-Torah subjects, leading to undervaluing of Torah by them – and, if R Eliezer and you do not care about their own views – transmitting it to their sons.
Middos are transmittable, not just intellect, even strength – as R Yohanan sand to Resh Lakish.
As to tiflus, it seems to be something we can reasonably analyze: schools & seminaries that end up producing tiflus outlived their purpose (circling to the topic), the ones that do not – do not, and I would be presumptuous enough to think that Rambam will agree with the observations.
R Steinsaltz in his short book Essential Talmud (that, unfortunately, has almost as many references as Rambam’s Mishne Torah) brings several observations that girls were learned in families of Talmidei Chachamim, bringing examples, but also a notion that it is a good idea to marry a daughter of T’Ch because if something happens w/ the husband, she will be able to educate the children in Torah. Anyone knows what is his source?
the way I learned – do not get yourself accustomed to luxury, so you can survive if the fortunes change. Same applies to the kids you raise. There are multiple agadta about poor people who demand stuffed chickens and die not getting it.
a good case, thanks!
SQRT,
this is a meaningless argument – when Moschiach comes, b’mwhira, those who focus on bein adam l’havero will claim it was their effort, those who were looking for birds in the forest – will claim it was theirs! I doubt Melech Hamoschiach will resolve this – l’derech shalom, or maybe even like current politicians, he will tell everyone what they want to hear – after all, al pi Rambam, there will be no difference from before, except Jews will not be subjugated. And we are getting a taste how Jews behave in such case from the Knesset elections.Avira, it is R Eliezer who mentions tiflus, not everyone agrees…
more importantly – how do we define capability? Definition of “gemora” is learning underlying reasons v. Mishna just halochos, not necessarily mastering tosfos. I am sure there are lots of ladies who are capable of learning and reasoning at that level at some topics. In my household, ladies are happy to discuss at that level agadot and issues that relate to interpersonal and practical application, with less interest in mahlokets Abaye and Rava.
Note that at Rambam times, women might have better emuna, etc, but they were way less educated both in Jewish and secular matters. So, if they are doing graduate work in secular subjects (legit, not gender studies), they need to understand Jewish subjects at the same level, otherwise, they’ll see it as tiflus.
This discussion about age raises an interesting question: do we read Gemora as a strictly legal cases or as a guide of living. Strictly legal reading defines edge cases indeed. For example, just had in the daf, a Rav goes to another city to ask a shaila about a posuk, the Teacher is not there, so he goes to another city.
You can learn from this what the pasuk says and some halochos of gezera shava – but you can also learn about an admirable attitude of dropping everything and travelling to get an answer to your question. When someone questioned R Salanter where his chidushim were from, he said “from Gemora”. The questioner was surprised – I do not know these Gemorahs [you can see here that the guy knew whole Gemora to say that!]. R Salanter said – it says so in _my_ Gemorah. I think he is talking about this expansive way of reading about lives of Tannaim and Amoraim.
This is not to defend my conjecture about ages of marriages, of course 🙂
YS, I see your position: there is a ridiculous price and then there is a price where you can consider trade-offs :). I am with you here.
This still leaves unanswered the question – what are they learning there that cannot be achieved by earlier learning and local learning and a family vacation in EY.
Also, to $40K – maybe they justify it by the full price of having their credits transferred to colleges?
I see these transfers working for several “Jewish colleges” but then one of the two:
1) you are getting FAFSA and lower tuition in college, so seminary still “stands out”
2) you are not getting FAFSA and then you might know of better options, such as higher-quality local colleges, and an idea of transferring credits to a lesser-quality high-price college is not appealing either.
So, not sure who the market is for this.apparently apple was introduced from Latin bonum et malum – good and evil, where malum is also apple.
apple were popular in Europe and Greece, where it was used to start a conflict between idols (idolesses?) leading to Trojan war.
apples seem to be known in EY some time before David, but not that popular. There are tapuchim in Bereshis, not clear if those are actually apples.
I take the criticism on extrapolating from girl’s age to what was a norm. Indeed, we have yevamos cases of groups of brothers and corresponding sisters, dying one after another that are hopefully not daily occurances.
Still, you can look at a variety of cases and get a feeling when a case is a stretch case or reasonably a norm – in the latter case, it is discussed in many situations, with practical details.
So, my feeling is that pre-12 y.o. marriage was not that typical, while possible, but 12-13 bogeres
was closer to the norm. See multitude of cases discussing 12-13 y.o. naara/bogeres engagement issues. Another example – when father sells his daughter into servitude (not that typical), she is expected to be married or go free at the bas mitzvah (as this wold be a typical moment).Also, a notion that a man should not live/visit too long at his in-laws before of mother-in-law there. This hints that husband and bride’s mother are typically close to each other in age. Would not be such a big issue if hatan is 15 and MIL is 40 …
7-11 has a free drink day, would it be Nov 7 in Israel?
I usually use this to discuss with kids that they need to actually buy something before or during the “free” day. Sone matanos.
interesting question whether all changes are only chumros and gezeiros …
first, “greater beis din” was less of the issue in antiquity, as such things happened…
not sure whether conditional get by Dovid was a change or not
allowing moabite women – if not a kula, at least a clarification– changes in school systems and ketuba during BM2 – not really kulos or chumros, just changes searching for successful social results.
– shemen akum – was announced and taken back within a year because people did not accept it.
– writing down Oral Torah
– all post-BM2 changes
– allowing taking money for teaching or even learning Torah and probably other things that are allowed because “our generations are weaker”ok, so I think we all agree that “halakha changed”.
Avira puts a couple of useful caveats to that:
– easier to add chumros, gedorim than other way around based on “greater beis din”
– applications change, but principles stay the sameI mostly agree with these, just pointing out that the serious answer is longer than “halakha did not change”. I actually once – many years ago – tried to be friendly with a C- Rabbi. His first question was “do you agree that halakha change”. I answered “yes”. He then deduced “so, you agree with us?”. Surprised, I answered “no”. He somehow got upset and ended the conversation. Maybe, his expectations were too high after the “yes”.
a gemora discussing birth control doesn’t presume the girl to be married?
shoun, then how about a gemora discussing a joint revocation of girl’s neder by the father and the hatan? this can happen only before 12, and marriage should happen within a yearAvira – They also believe halacha can change. That’s something all of them, left and right, agree to. And it makes them heretics.
yes, indeed. but saying that halacha doesn’t change would make you a tzeduki… we discussed here multiple times how halacha changed over time without making any of us C.
YS, so for $15k, you’ll send the kid?
The difference is – people voted Trump in to overturn and fix the system, and then they voted for Biden to “return to normality”. So, in eyes of the voters, Trump’s shortcomings are price paid for dealing with the issues he did (I listed them before, so I’ll spare). But Biden has no other attraction as being solid and organized. Turns out (not just in this episode) that his strengths were oversold.
Gadol,
“rich” people pay most of the taxes, what is the argument that they should pay even more?Even proportional taxation is not so clear from the first principles: yes, rich may get proportional benefits from the government in, say, protecting their property, but in other aspects – say, voting, medical insurances, the benefits are the same for everyone, so “fair” taxation should be proportional or less.
So, after you skip the intentional lie of “free stuff” for poor, then you can see that reducing taxes is supporting your expressed desire to stop extra spending. The argument that probably comes from Goldwater to Reagan is to “starve the beast”: it is difficult to get rid of a specific program because there are specific beneficiaries – people with bad teeth; missile makers; etc – but there are no particular objections from the taxpayers, as each program is “only $10 per person”… So, the creative solution is to reduce collections to make it harder to spend. Results in a debt? well, the alternative would be to collect more taxes and then increase spending to whatever is possible, leading to a similar debt … for example, pre-Obama debt-to-GDP was 86% just slightly higher than France 70+ and Germany 60%. Obama broke through the Reagan’s trick by increasing spending despite the debt making the ratio 138%, France did similarly, but Germany stayed at 75% (cheap Russian gas and exports to China).
There is nothing new here – Gemora calls government “wailing poor” because they always ask for more.
not charging interest is a form of chesed, so it might be questionable to do it to avdei kochavim. Presumably, you have a decent person in this case, so this might not apply (I think Radaq says this).
I am not sure what the difference is with returning a lost object, maybe because the latter one is really an extreme behavior that most non-Jews do not extend to each other.
SQRT
I thought it is in Nedorim, but could not find so far, sorry. Here are a couple related ones:
Nedarim 81 – pay attention to poor children as Torah comes from them
Nedarim 40 – R Akiva visiting a sick student not visited by anyone and saved him as, apparently, people paid attention to him otherwise (was he poor? AAQ)jackk > wealthy individuals tax breaks which caused the debt to go up 5.9 Trillion dollars.
jackk, we really are able to read propaganda on their original sites if we are interested … If you want to have an ehriche Jewish discussion, please do not refer to not taking someone else’s money as breaks that cause debts. I can tell you more, I am missing out on a lucrative investment right now because jackk did not give me $100K. If you believe in what you say, please figure out my address and wire me a check while bitcoins are so dirt cheap.
> They have no issue sending 800 Billion dollars to the military every year when we are not at war and have not been in a real war for decades.
please refresh your browser, you are reading off 2021 talking points. There is an actual war in Europe going on for almost a year where US military equipment is being used.
Maskil > Claiming that the Torah needs to be hyphenated (e.g. Ethical-Torah ) is a claim that the Torah is Chas vishalom deficient in some way, rl.
right, I agree with the sentiment. But modernity brings this need to define your position. A similar unreasonable term is “Orthodox Judaism” – as if there are others (R’L), but everyone is using the term to define themselves. So, while “ethical O” sounds corny, there is – again R’L – who are not careful on that.
> So sometimes we have people who follow some of the Torah and succumb to their Yetzer hora and act in an unethical manner . This doesn’t reflect negatively on the Torah, Chas vishalom.
This is mamash opposite of what Chazal say on this issue – our inappropriate behavior reflects on how people think of Torah.
Just to see how we view different aspects of Torah – if you were to suggest that it is OK to wait one hour between meat and milk, you will be called apikores and pounded by citations, even as there are no Gemoras that contradict that. And while there are hundreds, if not thousands of Gemoras calling for exquisite thoughtfulness in bein adam l’havero, this is still up to debate.
Asking for a friend: I would be curious to see a teshuva explaining under which conditions insider trading is kosher.
This involves explicitly breaking a contract that a person signs and also ensuing hillul Hashem caused by almost inevitable SEC action.
Is one allowed to break a contract for no good reason?
And even if there is some heter for the contract – mybe the teshuva was written before (or was unaware of) SEC deploying algorithmic search for irregularities in trading.
YS, (putting on a teacher’s hat):
would you really say that $45K is too much to ensure your daughter’s neshoma, continuous (for the year) happiness, and secure future shidduch that comes with a haskoma of the line on the resume?
Eibishte sent you these $45K (even more pre-tax if you happen to have a W2) – how else would you spend it? Now an actual quote from a teacher: and if money is an issue for you, I can help you find a seminary that will take her for free.> From her perspective, the best shot at avoiding being left at the altar with no one, is to get married as early as possible
exactly, that is why this is not going to work out on it’s own, but requires leadership. I think I read Telshe yeshiva in the 70s saying that early marriages are the main causes of family problems in the frum community of that time…
YS > If all Roshei Yeshiva would get together and….”
Rav Steinsaltz wondered aloud why we simply not follow the Gemora that says when all Talmidei Chachamaim would daven together on the same street of Yerushalaim, Moschiach will come.
He also answered – we misunderstand it, It is only when Moschiach will come, such event will happen …
> intensity that brisket yeshivos offer,
I think file mignon yeshivas are more intense, at least from the point of view of required shechita.