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Obviously, girls from Yeshivish homes prefer boys who are from Yeshivish homes. That doesn’t mean that boys from more-modern homes are suffering from a crisis. It merely means that they should try to marry someone who ALSO comes from a similar background, or should date girls who are a bit older and are therefore forced to settle. Why should a girl settle when she is still in her young twenties? Does family background mean nothing? Does the fact that you might flip back mean nothing? Does the fact that you were subjected to less-than-optimally-kosher food for decades mean nothing? Does the fact that many flip-outs display a certain rebelliousness or emotional instability mean nothing (I’m very happy that you flipped out, but a certain percentage of them flipped-out due to emotional instabilities)? They all mean a lot, and they scare off many girls, who are at a point in their lives who aren’t willing to settle yet. I mean, she is certainly entitled to do so, but I don’t see the reason to pressure her to do so or to blame her for not willing to do so at this early stage of the game.
There are issues. Regarding the shidduch crisis, all the Gedolim you mentioned weren’t aware of the crisis (Rav Shmuel was, but at a late stage in his life).
Regarding the halacha side of things, again, perhaps they believed that their boys weren’t yitzrom misgaber aleihem, and, at that time, maybe there was a real fear of insufficient food if you learned full time (Rav Chaim Epstein said, if not for Section 8, the whole kollel system would have had no chance of developing). Or it could be that they were against delay, but felt that they would anyhow be ignored (boys wanted to finish college before thinking about marriage, regardless of what their Rebbi told them). Or it could be that yes, even these great Gedolim like Rav Yaakov etc., as great as they were, had a little bias and that clouded their thinking on the topic (even an Amora, chazal tell us, must be ignored if they had bias, so we have to be OPEN to the possibility that they had bias regarding the halacha of getting married young [regarding the shidduch crisis, it wasn’t relevant then, as I said]). It is well know that the two Gedolim who were on fire about starting young were the Chazon Ish and the Steipler. This isn’t an accident. There is a reason for this. They were free from bias, because they weren’t Roshei Yeshiva. But again, I don’t need to say this controversial idea (not that I was mechadesh it chalilah, the Rosh Kollel Chazon Ish said so very strongly, that due to this bias, the boys are delayed), because all of these Gedolim you mentioned never once expressly hinted to the idea that nowadays that there is a mitzvah d’oraisa which no longer applies (Rav Mosh fought Conservative Judaism which such fever, to accuse him of having conservative deios that the Shulchan Aruch no longer applies is a shocking bizui of this Adom Gadol). Since they didn’t say so, we have no choice but to guesstimate what they believed, or base our decision on the fact that they weren’t moicheh. But we can’t base halacha on that (Bava Basra 130b). If they felt it didn’t apply, they would have said so.
I know of a Rosh Yeshiva (he spoke at the recent siyum hashas) who went to Rav Moshe ahls bochur (I admit that I don’t know the details of how old the boy was) and Rav Moshe told him, “If your yeitzer is misgaber on you, it is assur for you to delay.”
You are putting words in my mouth. I have no disdain for ANY Gedolim, chalilah.
I once gave ride to a random individual. He is a close Talmid to one of the members of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah of America. His Rebbi asked this Talmid for his opinion, “Do you think if I would have spoken out, demanding that boys start shidduchim young, the boys would have listened to me?” The Talmid was caught off guard by the question, and wasn’t sure how to answer. He meekly responded, in an attempt not to offend or criticize his Rebbi, “Neh, I guess not.”
Even since then this Talmid was mortified by this response. The Talmid told me, “I should have had the courage to tell my Rebbi the truth, that of course the Rebbi has the power AND OBLIGATION to stop the crisis, that he had to demand that boys MUST start shidduchim at a younger age.”
One thing we see from this story is that to infer what Gedolim hold based on the fact that they didn’t speak out isn’t reliable. Here, is one example of a Gadol who, for some reason, assumes that the Bochurim will anyhow ignore him.
I may be “insane.” I may be “brazen.” But I am not the topic of conversation. Let’s get back to the issues.
The fact is that it is assur to rely on the Psak of anyone who has any personal interest (even indirect) Even an Amora who had a personal interest was ignored. Once there are family businesses, we are dealing with businessmen. That is what halacha tells; there is nothing brazen about this claim. There is no Teshuva defending the practice. To the contrary, the major Poskim have said that it is assur to listen to anyone who advises you to delay. This is all regarding the basic halacha of getting married before 20, which isn’t merely a recommendation: each DAY after 19 is an additional bittul mitzvahs aseh (See the Chofetz Chaim’s Nidchei Yisrael chapter 25), just like not eating matzah on the night of Pesach. The only difference is that chazal tell us that if you don’t try to get married before 20 you are chayuv misa. Many, many sefarim quote this chazal. None of them say that chazal are exaggerating. The first to say a word against this chazal in the past 2000 years are the people who responded on this blog.
Regarding the Aguna-crisis, Rav Gershon Edelstein, Rav Aharon Leib and Rav Chaim wrote a sharply-worded, blistering letter regarding those businessmen. You can find the letter online. If you don’t like the contents of that letter, take it up with this Gedolim who a) were born in Europe, b) have no bias, c) are real Gedolim (not merely occupiers of prestigious positions).
When a Posek writes a Teshuva – not a Psak, a Teshuva – he is REQUIRED to provide justification for his Psak. It also allows us to ascertain whether the Posek was aware of the sugya and all the shitos. This is certainly true in a case where we are being told that reform Judaism is right, that the Shulchan Aruch needs to be updated or otherwise ignored. Furthermore, when we have a written Psak we are able to respond to and correct that psak.
Until we have justification to ignore the Shulchan Aruch, we dare not ignore it. This is especially true whenany of these business leaders aren’t aware of the sief in Shulchan Aruch (I can say this based on conversations I’ve had with them) they aren’t aware of the Chida who says that those who claim that immaturity is a hetter to delay are jeopardizing their Olam haba. They are also unaware that many boys are yitzrom misgaber aleihem.
But even if these balleibatim did know all the facts, we can’t rely on them, because the Rema writes that someone with bias is untrustworthy in Psak.
I just read the earlier texts. Shaving is a machlokes Haposkim as is whether one could carry in the Borough Park Eruv. You could say that the meikilim are mistaken, that they are being too lienient, but you can’t call them REFORM, because they aren’t IGNORING Shas u’poskim. I don’t see how that’s relevant to whether one could ignore a UNANIMOUSLY-ACCEPTED chiyuv d’oraisa. Based on your logic that we let everything slide, even Reform Jews should be OK in your book, because, heck, we also shave etc.
Before calling the age-gap reality a “hoax,” please contact the economists who have written extensively regarding the marriage-squeeze which is caused by an age-gap and population growth, which is common in South Asa. Maybe you can explain to them why their theories are wrong and a hoax. Tell them that their studies are really based on some yungerman living in Queens who is half their age.
In response to one claiming that there is a chinuch crisis, that may be true, that may be an exacerbating factor – that more girls want learning boys than there are learning boys. But that doesn’t mean that the age-gap imbalance is not ALSO a factor: and so we are required to resolve it.
Now, personally, I don’t think that there is a chinuch crisis. True, it is POSSIBLE that INITIALLY too many girls demand a learning guy. But if that were true, those girls who are willing to date working guys should have a very easy time. And working guys should have hardly any dates. Empirically, that it not true.
Furthermore, even if it was true – even if too many girls are limiting themselves to learning guys – that usually fizzles out after a few years. Almost every yeshivish girl, by the time she is 25, and certainly by the time she is 30, is more than willing to date a non-learning boy. So the chinuch crisis problem which you refer two should, at worst, merely delay girls a could of years. But how does it explain why there are so many single girls in their upper-thirties and forties?
Ultimately, those who point to when Gedolim got married are engaging in speculation. These speculators don’t know when the Gedolim started to look, and aren’t willing to consider the fact the Shulchan Aruch’s hetter clearly applies to them . Puk Chazi is fine if you want to be machria in a machlokes, not when you want to uproot a clear, unanimously-accepted chiyuv d’oraissa. Please quote me ONE Teshuva which says that we could ignore the Shulchan Aruch because some Gedolim got married later. I am asking for ONE. Can you provide it, or not? I can provide you multiple MAJOR POSKIM who say that if a business leader tells someone to delay marriage, it is ASSUR to listen to him.
The Poskim are very clear what is happening here. They explain that certain business leaders had a lot to gain from delaying boys. Indeed, the Poksim notify us that these business leaders are committing an “avoin plili” are “asid leetain ess hadin” and they are “reshaim.” The Poskim understand that there is really no justification for this, notwithstanding when particular Gedolim happened to have ultimately gotten married.
It is very easy to claim that someone is suffering from mental illness. It is certainly easier than studying, considering and debating the various chazals which take delaying Pru Urvu extremely seriously. I hope you are right, but I am afraid (and I’m perplexed why you aren’t) you are wrong.
You apparently don’t know about poverty in Russia to claim that sufficient food wasn’t a real concern. We can’t uproot what Chazal and the Shulchan Aruch tell us based on speculation regarding when Gedolim ultimately found their shidduch. This is especially true in a situation where there were hardly any from girls to marry. Are you saying Chazal were wrong.
No. Your Rav is not chayiv misa because he’s a shogeg. You, at this point, are no longer a shogeg so if you delay or allow your children to delay, you would be chayiv misa, unlike your Rav and your friends who are, as I said shogegim.
It is irelevant when a particular Gadol got married. The Shulchan Aruch itself allows one to delay: assuming one doesn’t have money for food and is not yitzro misgaber alav. So I’m not sure what your point is.
I spoke to Ostrov and asked him to explain his position to me and he was apparently unaware that age-gap + population-growth= Agunos exists throughout the world and is mentioned by academics (E.g., Prof. Sautmann of Brown University). He admitted to me that he’s not a math person, by which he meant that he really is in no position to understand or render and opinion on the crisis.
Yes, anyone who delays past nineteen unless he can fit into the Shulchan Aruch’s hetter is chayiv misa. He also won’t have techias hameisim.
Regarding having emunah, that’s fine. But this problem was caused by our bechira and by greedy people who have lucrative family businesses which make them reluctant to stop it.
No American Gadol is on the level of Rav Elyashiv, Rav CChaim Kanievsky, Rav Shmuel Aurbach or Rav Aharon Leib, so it’s irrelevant what Americans hold. The Novominsker Rebbe publicly said that we should shudder at arguing with Rav Chaim. I challenge you to please find me one Rav who paskins issue vheter who wrote that a boy who is yitzro misgaber alav or has no fear of insufficient food is allowed to delay, who says that Chazal and the Shulchan Aruch were mistaken when they held that once it’s yitzro misgaber alav you may not delay.
The word Aguna for a girl who is having trouble finding a shidduch is found in Kidushin Daf 41 in Tosafos and Midrash Rabbah Achrei Mos. Agav, the Midrash says that Nadav and Avihu died for making Agunos.
Fine, you guys disagree with Chazal. You think that they when they said that you are chiyuv misa if you delay past 19 they were being old-fashioned. You also believe immaturity is hetter to delay (unlike the Chazon Ish, Rav Aharon Leib Steinman and the Chida [the Chida adds “don’t say such kulos regarding something that your Olam Haba depends on).
You also believe that you are allowed to delay past 19 for financial reasons (unlike the Chofetz Chaim [Sefer Nidchei Yisrael, ch. 25], Rabbi Chaim Berlin [Even Haezer, siman 3], Rav Chaim Palachi [Tochachas Chaim], Rav Hillel Kalimaeir [Sefer Eis Laasos]). You also believe that your son learning in Yeshiva somehow makes him more financially secure. I still must ask you: If you would know that the old way for YOUR OWN DAUGHTER TO EVER GET MARRIED would be for your son to start young, would you still delay your son. Or would you realize that your initial assumption — that your son isn’t “ready” — is based on no evidence and isn’t worth your daughter remaining an Aguna.
Yet, when it comes to someone else’s daughter you are quite eager to posit any possible boich sevara to jeopardize her chances from ever getting married.
Now, regarding the claim that we are scaring bnos yisrael, that is incorrect for two reasons. First, that is akin to claiming that we shouldn’t advertise against smoking or obesity because we are scaring people. Second – and this is the essential point – girls aren’t scared by the numbers. They are scared by the fact that their phones are silent. WE ARE MERELY PROVIDING AN EXPLANATION FOR WHY THAT’S THE CASE! True, there are some girls – i.e., daughters of Roshei Yeshiva – whose have plenty of names. This information obviously doesn’t scare them, because the fact is that they are getting plenty of names, so they realize that they are the exception to the rule.
Listen, we all know many single women in their forties. We all know many of them. We knew this for a very long time, way before Libbi. This info is was always very frightening to all. Thanks to Libbi, we at least know why that happened. AND WE KNOW HOW WE CAN AND MUST RESOLVE IT.
The problem is that there are too FEW posts regarding the shidduch crisis. We have set up a system where a terrifying number of Bnos Yisrael are nearing 40 v’ein potzeh peh umitzaftzeif, except a few yechidim, such as Libbi.
What percentage of Neilah Drashos in our shuls and yeshivos addressed this crisis? I’d say it’s close to zero. Why is that?
Why are people setting up tehillim groups to help their daughters get married but at the same time they are delaying their own sons (or sending their sons to yeshivos that encourage or force delay) from getting married?
How can you daven to Hashem, “Please Hashem help my daughter get married,” while preventing other girls from getting married?
I repeat my challenge: What other chiyuvei d’oraisa are we willing to disregard because we lack maturity?
I you call any shadchanim in the Litvish and Lubavitcher communities they will tell you that there is a shortage if boys, but in the chassidish world, there is no shortage of boys. The reason for this is obvious to anyone who is open to evidence.
I have spoken to two Roshei Yeshiva but they hung up on me. They are invited to write a Teshuva showing why they are entitled to disagree with Chazal as well as all the Poskim.
You claim that the majority of boys aren’t ready at 21. What other halachos in Shulchan Aruch are you willing to give up because the person isn’t ready? In fact, this – getting married before 20 – is the last halacha to be giving up. We are talking about a daily chiyuv d’oraisa (see, Nidchei Yisrael, ch. 25), which carries a chiyuv misa when ignored (see Medrashi Koheles Parasach 3), that is punished by possibly losing the right to get up for techias hameisim. The fact that Gedolim got married later is irrelevant both because they may had tried to get married younger, or because they fit into the Rambam’s hetter of delaying marriage which requires a) that you be a masmid (see, Kitzur Shulchan Aruch), b) that you will be “TAMID” bogged down with earning money to get “FOOD” for your family if you’d get married young (Chochmas Adam), and c) you don’t have hirhurie isha.
You then claim that some Roshei Yeshiva don’t agree with this.If they are Orthodox Roshei Yeshiva, they surely agree with the Shulchan Aruch, unless they never heard of that particular halacha, which is possible since they aren’t poskim. But even if they were Poskim, the halacha says that any Posek who has a personal bias shouldn’t be relied on (Rema Y.D. 242:36). Rav Yudel Shapira, Rosh Kollel Chazon Ish (when Rav Chaim Kanievsky had to write on a hard siman, he’d let Rav Yudel read it to make sure that there are no mistakes), said that Roshei Yeshiva who tell boys to delay are subject to negius (Daas Yehuda, p. 242).
Are you claiming that there is no shidduch crisis? Call shadchaim and ask them if they have a much harder time getting a yes from a boy than from a girl and then respond.