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Random, here is a quote: “relative isolation from the world around”. Of course, “relative” is relative. Someone who goes to a day school is isolated relative to someone who goes to a public school.
Ubitquin, why is it a noble effort to maintain Jewish Creole German? Should Rabaul Creole German also be maintained? It is totally useless except to historians and anthropologists. It would be far better to learn Hochdeutsch considering the economic power of German-speaking countries.
So I guess Rambam and all of the other Rishonim who embraced Philosophy were MO. Not to mention Rabbenu Bachye and the Gra, who said that one cannot be called wise if he is not conversant with the seven fields of secular wisdom. Not to mention David HaMelech, who joined the army at a very young age. What does Rav Lopiansky have to say about boys who simply are not built for full-time learning? Should they be join the Shabab haChareidi (street kids who live in and prey on the Chareidi community)?
Come home to Israel in any case.
Winnie, the Galut is a blessing? So why daven to come back to EY (assuming that you do not omit it)?
Neville, you have not answered my question. What difference does it make to the victim if he is killed by a terrorist, a nut or a common criminal? If you want numbers, the intentional homicide rate for the most recent year surveyed in Israel 1.36 vs. 4.88 in the US. Israel also had a lower rate than France, Canada and Belgium.
Neville ,
1. That is how it started in Germany and Poland (although there they told Jews to go to “Palestine”). The fact of the matter is that there is a climate of fear on American campuses. A tenured professor at CT College, Andrew Pessin, was forced to leave after he received death threats over his protest of Hamas war crimes.
2. That certainly is connected to this thread. How is America safe for Jews if there is rampant assimilation (in fact, it is not inconceivable that those who refuse to date non-Jews will be ostracized as racists).
3. What is the difference tot he victim if he is killed by a political terrorist, a crazed gunman or a common criminal? The fact of the matter is that the intentional homicide rate in Israel is much lower than in America.Effie, Chazal only forbade insulting nicknames. However, they themselves used diminutives. For example, Yossi ben Yoezer’s name was actually Yosef (Avoda Zara 37a).
DWKL1, actually the quote is from Ovadia HaNavi. As for the others, I suggest that they read Em HaBanim Semeicha. Rav Teichtal realized that their anti-Zionism was tragically wrong and wrote that the holocaust was caused by the sin of the spies, which we see in this thread..
Neville, you apparently know very little about what is going on outside your block. American and Canadian campuses are hotbeds of anti-Semitism. Europe is reeling from one terror attack after another. Jews in Paris are attacked in their own homes. Meanwhile Jews are intermarrying in record numbers.
Spread, Ravitzky is a member of the leftist “Neemnei Torah v’Avoda” group that comes very close to being Conservative. Take a look at their website. However, that just proves my statement that the RZ movement is not monolithic.
HaLeiVi.
1.Here is the rundown (some are approximate):
Shekiya: Ramban makes aliya and renews Jewish sttlement
Netz : The Gra begins to learn Kabbala and advocate settling the Land
Sof zeman KS: Rav Kook is born
Sof zeman tefilla: Rav Kook makes aliya and begins to write on the Geula
Sof zeman b”c The State is established, Rav Tzvi Yehuda begins to teach
Chatzot: Secular Zionism effectively ends with the Oslo agreements
We are now in Mincha Gedola2. Any ideology is by definition divisive as there are those who hold by it and those who don’t.
3. What is “insider logic” and opposed to outsider logic?
Spread,
1. A nuclear attack on Israel would also result in the destruction of the entire middle East from the fallout. Nit ti mention the fact that Israel may well have a few nukes of its own.
2. There already is a holocaust going on in America. It is called assimilation and even frum communities are effected, if not by actual intermarriage by acculturation.
3. The story about Rav Herzog is aknown fact.Joseph, what about the pogroms and the Holocaust? As for statistics today, what is it per 100,000 Jews? Not to mention general crimes which are not specifically directed against a person because he is Jewish. Israel has a much lower intentional murder rate than the US and also lower than Canada and several European countries- and a good part of the murder rate is “family honor” killings within the Arab sector.
There are different subgroups of religious Zionism. The Mercaz HaRav wing sees it as the beginning of the Geula. Whether or not it is considered a stepping stone depends on how one defines a state. France is now on its fifth republic and has had kings and emperors. Does that mean that it is a different state? At present Israel does not have a constitution but a series of “basic laws” that form a quasi-constitutional framework. It could be that a republican Torah constitution will be enacted at some later stage and that at an even more later stage a monarchy will be established. Interestingly, the Zohar states that each 1,000 years of Creation parallel the first six days. That means that 5708 was the last time for burning chametz on erev Shabbat. There is no greater chametz than the Galut. I highly recommend the book Torat Eretz Yisrael (in English) by Rav David Samson and Tzvi Fishman for further elucidation.
During WW2 it seemed like Rommel would conquer EY c”v. In fact, the British were making plans to evacuate and the Jewish National Committee was making plans for a Massada-style last stand on Mt. Carmel. At the time Rav Herzog was in DC to ask FDR to bomb the tracks leading to the concentration camps. FDR said that he was willing to save one Jew – Rav Herzog – and offered him an iummigrant’s visa. Rav Herzog paskened that the Third Commonwealth would not be destroyed. The rest is history.
BTW, the Gemara (Yoma 10a) says that there will be a war between Rome and Persia. There is a machloket as to who will win. This could include a brief confrontation between Iran and Israel (Sanhedrin 98b) after which Mashiach will come.
ובהר ציון תהיה פליטה
עובדיה א יזJoseph, why not? I wish you a refuah sheleimah.
Partially. If he was considered Jewish and then says that he “converted himself” he may not marry a Jew as he made himself prohibited
(שווי נפשיה חתיכה דאיסורא) but his children may ( SA YD 268:11). However, if the bet din knows that he went to the mikva for tevillat Ezra or she went to purify herself from nidda they are considered Jewish b’diavad (ibid seif 3). If he claims that abet din converted him he is believed because of a מיגו (ibid Shach seif katan 20).Regarding a case where a doubt arises see האם משפחת גויים שנטמעה נטמעה? on the website of Yeshivat Shaalvim. However, in general we have a rule that כל המשפחות בחזקת כשרות, ומותר לישא מהם לכתחילה (SA EH 2:2) so if there is no basis for doubt there is no need to check and perhaps it would even be heretical to do so (Pitchei Teshuva YD 116:10).
Doer, sometimes it means that the statement does not deserve an answer (see Baba Batra 62a Tosofot d”h umodeh).
Winnie,
1. If they think that their Torah is a protection why did those in Ofakim run for the hills when missiles flew. For that matter, even before the first Gulf War started the airport was filled with chutznikim hightailing it back (one was called up to the reserves and sent to Saudi Arabia – I heard this from his chevruta).
2. Why don’t they says the tefilla for the Medina or at least the misheberach forthe soldiers. Do they not want Hashem to give us a wise government? Do they not want the soldiers to come back in one piece?
3. I agree that those who are really learning should have some kind of deferment. What about learning in an IDF bet midrash in a hesder-type arrangement and saying that it is for the merit of the troops? Why not become chaplains and give shurim? For that matter, why not use their analytical skills in military intelligence (and also acquire hi-tech skills)? However, not all are really learning. There is, in fact, a major problem with “shabanikim” , kids from Hareidi background who cannot learn all day but have no alternative within the community. Would it not be much better for them to go into the army, get out their aggressions in a socially acceptable manner and the get jobs after they have cooled off?Actually Yated has been condemning them. The fact of the matter is that these protests are part of a rebellion against Rav Steinman as leader of the Lithuanian Haredim. Other talmidei chachamim are probably scared to come out publicly against them. The Atra Kadisha thugs even stoned Rav Eliashiv when he reached an agreement on moving graves. However, if the boycott of the Badatz gains steam they will push to crush these thugs. Already they Badatz issued a statement disassociating itself from the Peleg.
Ubiquitin, if c’v they get divorced they get will have to include Morris (and maybe Moe, and Morrie) as well as Debbie. BTW, on his English side of his letterheads Rav Moshe was called “Moses Feinstein”.
Winnie,
1. You are half correct. Tying social benefits to going into job training is also a form of force but it can work. The same goes for not supporting schools that don’t teach subjects that form the base for acquiring job skills.
2. Teachers and kashrut supervisors make very low salaries. As for discrimination, it is in part due to the chillulei Hashem of some of the Chareidim (in particular the Pelegniks). Refusal to go into the army is also a very sore point. However, as the Chareidi sector grows employers will decide that they cannot afford prejudices (Ludwig von Mises, in his book on National Socialism, Omnipotent Government pointed out that it took Nazi terror to get Germans, including antisemites, to boycott Jewish businesses. Moreover, in a capitalist economy groups which suffer discrimination can start their own businesses, as Milton Friedman pointed out regarding the Jews in America in Capitalism and Freedom.
3. What about the obligation to protect Am Yisrael?
4. I don’t know. However, it is time that laws should be enforced one way or another. For example, slackers could lose all social benefits. If they do not believe in the Medina the Medina should not believe in them.Gaon, who says that the PR did not believe in Zionism?
4.Some English names have been “converted”. Alexander and Julius are long-time favorites (perhaps because they followed pro-Jewish policies). In my parents’ generation Sidney, Seymour, Morris and Selma were common. Many also had English equivalents or English names found in the Tanach (e.g. Abraham, Sarah, Esther, Celia, Hannah, Miriam). What is interesting is that John was not given although it is the English form of Yochanan. BTW, the Puritans also gave their children Anglicized Tanachic names. Increase and Cotton Mather were יוסף and קטן respectively. There was also Ethan (איתן) Allen. On the fiction side there is Ichabod (אי כבוד) Crane.
OOPs. Its name.
The eruv, as it’s name indicates, is supposed to bring Jews together.
Achdus, to which Chabad are you referring. Chabad is a chassidut without a rebbe. This is like being a ship without a captain. Anyone can claim to be a Chabadnik and speak for the entire group. This is also the problem with Breslov.
Noshoichis, Mizrahi also disagrees with the Gemara. He says that non-observant soldiers who die for Israel go to Gehinnom (Baba Batra 10a and see הרוגי מלכות on Toraland).
Someone who does not believe in the Medina should not take money from it nor should the Medina give it to him. This includes social benefits.
As for setting curriculum, with the Chareidi sector growing the Medina cannot afford a mass of people who refuse to work. Every state has a basic curriculum to prepare students for the job market. This, in fact, is the highest form of tzedaka. A man who chooses not to work and is not producing Torah on a high level (the Chief Rabbanate can give exams) should be drafted and ten sent into job training.Litvisherchosid, that’s nothing. There’s a group in Tzefat that davens to his picture. Some years ago I was told that they had “Rebbe wine”. I said that all they need now are rebbe cookies and they can say “This is the blood and this is the body”.
The Rebbe never did anything that Rambam say that Mashiach will do. He did not fight wars. He did not bring Jews back to EY (in fact, Chabad is anti-aliya) , he did not build the Bet HaMikdash, he did not bring universal peace. Moreover, Rambam says in Iggeret Teiman that Mashiach will arise in EY and the Rebbe was never here in his life. Not to mention the fact that Mashiach will be a political leader and the Rebbe (unlike Bar Kochba) was not.
if someone chooses to believe that the Rebbe or any Rebbe is Moshiach, that doesn’t make him a Kofer or anything
Does this mean that Jacob Damkani, who heads a movement that claims that Yushki was the Jewish messiah and never intended to start a new religion, is OK? What about a Jew who joins the Unitarian church? If not, what is the difference?
Shopping, I wrote that they can survive if their income is from Chutz laAretz.
Winnie, many people who are fluent in both languages sometimes mix. For example, English speakers will say “makkolet” and “Misrad HaPenim” rather than “grocery store” and “Ministry of the Interior”.
ZD, you are correct about French so far as reading (I can, in fact, more or less read a newspaper in French) as what one does not know one can figure out from the context. However, there are also “false friends”. For example, in French blesser means “to wound”. In any case, I still think that Hebrew is easier to learn in a better way because of its regularity and logical structure.
Shopping, adults will only “survive” if they have incomes from Chutz laAretz on which they can live. I, however, am very disturbed that any frum Jew thinks that he does not need to learn our national language,
IMHO, people who don’t achieve a modicum of fluency (probably someone who came as an adult will never lose his accent) simply have a fear just as some people have fears regarding Math or other subjects. I had great difficulty with French in school but Hebrew cam easily even though the US State Dept considers the former much easier to learn than the latter. The two keys were motivation and immersion (and BTW, the fact that olim speak in English, French or Russian among themselves does not necessarily indicate lack of fluency in Hebrew – it just feels more natural). I also find Hebrew to be a remarkably logical, regular language unlike French, which has many exceptions.
People who come as retirees can get along without it but others will never feel part of Israel. It will, of course, also severely limit job opportunities as with anywhere else.
As for Yiddish, unless one is a native speaker it will be very difficult to learn. It is more or less a form of German and his experiences studying the latter drove Mark Twain to write an essay called “The Awful German Language”, which can be read on-line.
HKV, who says that it was never accepted? The reason why it was not studied is that nothing other than Gemara was studied except in mussar and Chassidic yeshivot where their own sheetot were studied. Why only Gemara is another question. Rav Kook believed that tanach and sifrei emuna should also be studied. Rav Mordechai Eliahu recommended studying mussar for ten minutes every day.
ZD,
I know someone who has a daughter who tutors disadvantaged kids in English. One kid asked why he should learn English. By he time he grows up everybody will be speaking Chinese. However, English does have many holes.
BTW, in Hungary goyish languages were banned in shul in response to the Neolog (Reform) who were “more Hungarian than the Hungarians”. However, Pressburgers did know German as they earned external diplomas in return for draft exemptions as theological students. The story goes that when Koppel Weiss became Chief Rabbi he endeared himself (and the Orthodox in general) to Franz Josef by speaking to him in German, thus relieving him of the obligation to break his teeth on Hungarian as per his compromise with the Hungarian rebels, whereas the Neolog leader addressed him in literary Hungarian.Hml, Jews would have to have known how to read and write Hebrew for davening and learning. They would also have needed to the local languages in order to do business (unless they were simple workers, which few Jews were). Probably, as everywhere else, they spoke a Judaized version of either English, Norman French or a combination of both. Similarly, the Jews in northern France spoke a language called Zarphatic or Judeo-French. There is, in fact, a book called Hebrew and Hebrew-Latin documents from medieval England : a diplomatic and palaeographical study by Judith Olszowy-Schlanger that has facsimiles of Jewish documents from medieval England. It costs about $1,500 but you can see some pictures on Google. You can also google “Jewish life in medieval England”.
Read Ivanhoe, as William the Conqueror believed that a leaderless people would not revolt he wiped out the Anglo-Saxon aristocracy (according to some versions this is why Robin Hood had to flee to the forest) but left the common people alone. This is why a live animal is a cow (koo in Anglo-Saxon) but its meat is beef (boeuf in French). Anglo-Norman French also became the language of the law courts and was known as Law French. While it was eventually abandoned many terms survive (e.g. attorney and bailiff). As the Jews had to interact with the common people they would have had to be conversant in Early Middle English.
Citizens who vote a certain just because a rav or rebbe said so are, in effect, robots. On the other hand, In R.U.R. the robots took over (Čapek also wrote War with the Newts sometimes translated as War with the Salamanders about animals taking over). However, if a golem cannot be counted in a minyan (Resonsa Chacham Tzvi 93) then I would say that a robot also cannot.
As for trying him for a crime, why should he be any different than someone’s animal who damages? BTW, there are now moves in several countries to give animals legal standing, subject them to anti-slavery laws, etc.
I really do not think that the bus driver, etc. care if you call it a Chanuka gift. they just want the gift. Decades ago NYC banks got tired of everybody and his brother wanting a club named after his holiday so they merged everything into “holiday clubs”. Why not just leave a pace on the note and under it write “fill in the blank”?
Halloween is definitely of pagan origin and then was adapted by Xtianity (although the Puritans opposed it as well as Xmas). Dressing up as witches, etc. is certainly pagan. In fact,some historians believe that the witch trials in both North America and Europe were a religious war against the remnants of European paganism. BTW, CTL, just out of curiosity did your pumpkin used to be the carriage? You say that your house is 200 years old. Does it have a ghost?
A HS dropout, an accountant and an actuary applied for a job. Each was asked how much is 1+1.
The dropout said “Duh. I think 3”.
The accountant took out his calculator, tapped “1+1=” and announced “2”.
The actuary closed the door and whispered “How much do you want it to be?”CTL,
1. No one is forcing them to read are back and forth.
2. However, it can lead to a reduction in the sentence. In particular, it can be , in states that have the death penalty, the difference between that and a prison sentence.Joseph, one can claim the opposite too. A jury will sympathize with a sob story about someone’s terrible childhood. That, for example, led to the Capeman’s sentence being commuted to life imprisonment, which even hard-nosed Manhattan DA Frank Hogan supported.
When Can an Attorney Withdraw in the Middle of a Case?
By Neil GoodmanWhen an attorney withdraws in the middle of a client’s case, that withdrawal is usually categorized as either “mandatory” or “voluntary.” In this article, we’ll explain the difference between these two processes, along with some examples of each. Keep in mind that with either type of withdrawal, the attorney usually needs to ask for and obtain the court’s permission before ending representation of one of the parties in a civil lawsuit in the middle of the case.
An Attorney’s Mandatory WithdrawalIf the circumstances require that the attorney withdraw from representation, the withdrawal is considered mandatory. Situations that could give rise to an attorney’s mandatory withdrawal from a case include:
the attorney is not competent to continue the representation
the attorney becomes a crucial witness on a contested issue in the case
the attorney discovers that the client is using his services to advance a criminal enterprise
the client is insisting on pursuit of a frivolous position in the case
the attorney has a conflict of interest or cannot otherwise continue representation without violating the rules of professional conduct, and
the client terminates the attorney’s services. (Learn more: How to Fire Your Attorney.)An Attorney’s Voluntary Withdrawal
Where the circumstances permit, but do not require, the attorney to cease representation, the withdrawal is considered voluntary.The circumstances under which an attorney may withdraw mid-case include:
the client is refusing to pay the attorney for his or her services in violation of their fee agreement
the client is refusing to follow the attorney’s advice
the client is engaged in fraudulent conduct, and
there has been a breakdown in the attorney-client relationship that prevents the attorney from effectively representing the client in the case.Even where withdrawal is mandatory, an attorney must first seek and obtain the court’s permission before ending representation in the middle of a case. And, in most situations where the withdrawal request is granted, the court will give the client a reasonable amount of time to find new counsel. [end]
IMHO, if the attorney does not believe in the case he is presenting he will not be effective unless he is a really good actor. So the lawyer just goes through the motions. Of course, it may well be that the indigent client wants to go back inside where he will get free room and board. However, if the client is mentally defective I would think that the lawyer’s job would be easier as that is a strong defense.
CTL,
1. the client refuses to speak with or aid the attorney in the client’s defense. What if the attorney determines that the best chance is a plea deal and the client stubbornly refuses?
2. Even well-educated jurors are human. It is not possible to erase things from their memories as with a computer.
3. I would think that they would also be more knowledgeable about jury nullification, especially retired History teachers, who know about the William Pitt and John Peter Zenger cases. Is that why they are only used for civil trials?Joseph,
1. The Rema says that that is only if he is like his father in yira and is knowledgeable.
2. The Avnei Nezer (312) says that that is only if most of the community wants the son.
3. In any case as in all such cases minhag trumps the default halacha (see, for example, Amud HaYemini of Rav Shaul Yisraeli, 12,5 – http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=43775&st=%d7%94%d7%a0%d7%9b%d7%a8%d7%99&pgnum=93 – regarding Knesset elections). Many kehillot had by-laws regarding who could be their rav. In Frankfurt there was even a rule that no one who disagreed with their rav regarding the Get of Cleves could be appointed.
4. For a wider discussion see “פרשת פנחס – ירושה ברבנות” on-line.CTL,
1. So why would permission be granted? I read that a personality conflict is grounds for withdrawal. Why is that stronger than knowledge of guilt? Would (or should) that not be the greatest personality conflict? On the other hand, if something about the client rubs the attorney the wrong way should he not, as a professional, ignore it.
2. Do you really believe that juries ignore all that they are told to ignore?
3. While we are on the subject what do you think of jury nullification? Is that a possible out for the lawyer who knows his client is guilty. That is to say, may he put the law on trial?JJ,
1. A knowledgeable party to a din Toah can also tailor his claims. For example, someone who knows the laws of “migo” can get out of paying what he really owes.
2. A code of ethic is a system of morality. It may be different than Torah ethics but it is a system. That is why I wrote “immoral” and not “amoral”.
3. Positing an alternative theory is only immoral if it is facetious or the lawyer somehow knows that his client is guilty.JJ, how is a lawyer’s job different (besides dealing with technical procedural issues)?
CTL, IMHO if the client tells the lawyer that he is guilty it is immoral to provide alternative theories (unless, of course, the attorney thinks that the client is not telling the truth for some reason). Rather if the client refuses a plea agreement he should withdraw from the case. A really interesting scenario would be if the lawyer is a witness to the crime and his name pops up on the public defender list. Would he cross-examine himself? BTW, there is an article on this subject called WHEN THE LAWYER KNOWS THE CLIENT IS GUILTY: CLIENT CONFESSIONS IN LEGAL ETHICS, POPULAR CULTURE, AND LITERATURE, which was delivered in a shorter form as a lecture at the UCLA law school.
Anyone with a decent memory can rattle off names, dates and places. Analyzing why they happened trains a person to think. However, it odes open the door to political grading.
MTAB,
1. Did you learn your hatred in the Ukraine or did you go there to be with like-minded people?
2. FYI, the Tanach, hebrew language, etc. belong to all of Am Yisrael.
3. The fact of the matter is that these riots are about a power struggle within the Lithuanian Hareidi community. After Rav Schach was niftar there was a dispute over his successor and Rav Shteinman won. Rav Auerbach would not accept so he started the Peleg. What is interesting is that Peleg’s grandson was Serug. The שי”ן and סמ”ך are interchangeable so perhaps this means that eventually that they will do teshuva.CTL, thank you for the correction. However, what if the client admits to his attorney that he committed the crime? May the attorney plead “not guilty” without a qualifier (e.g. “temporary insanity”)? Is thre an ethical requirement to withdraw from the case without explanation (I have read of this being done).
JJ, then what does a toen do? Bring the dayanim coffee?