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Boys want thin, pretty wives as well.
Get boys out of the process!
Or Carlebach. His songs are so pure, so holy, so real, so high.
I know some claimed he gave a shiur there or something but I believe that is misinformation.
The fellow who told me he attended that shiur doesn’t agree with you.
RAK did not enter YU.
I’m pretty sure he did.
No, I’m not a racist.
There are a whole bunch of ????s, and plain ?”?s which means one.
http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14407&st=&pgnum=223
Sam, are you sure you’re not thinking of eight chiyuvim on one maaseh?
Joseph, what you’re trying to ask is, are we racists.
What answer do you expect?
DY, Matan- if a shadchan would call you up and redt a person of a different race to your daughter/son, do you really think that you would not be… I can’t think of the right word. Not horrified, but something close to it?
If your son/daughter would come over to you one night and tell you that they’re about to get engaged to a person of a different race, would you happily give them your blessing?
I’m not sure why this is addressed to me, but the answer to both questions is that you haven’t given me enough information about the shidduch. But no, the very thought of my child marrying a frum, ehrlich person who happens to be of a different race does not horrify me.
There’s also a big difference between the two questions. The first question is about considering such a shidduch, and there are practical issues, most notably the possible cultural differences.
The second scenario, where the shidduch is a fait accompli, is really about how much I care about superficial things and about my level of ahavas Yisroel. I certainly hope I would think and act properly in that, or any, situation.
I can’t find it. Here’s the sefer – where is the minhag of a pocket watch?
http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/14556
I’ve heard the minhag is based on showing the value of time, so pocket/wrist wouldn’t matter. Wrist watches were probably at one time beged isha.
Gamanit, earlier, when I said the watch was important, I was referring to the chosson watch. As superficial as it is, the kallah bracelet/chosson watch do represent a commitment to a relationship of giving.
Golfer, beautiful thought.
Gamanit, I believe the chosson watch is an old minhag. A watch for the kallah is generally overkill, IMO.
Gavra, I would think the basic package at halls such as Torah V’yirah, and the takanah packages available at other halls, would be the template for a tzedakah subsidized chasunah. Generally, that’s a downgrade from what you described, but something which many non tzedakah chasunahs do.
One man band, regular chicken, ices and cake for dessert, etc., in a regular hall with waiter service. Number of guests would have to be flexible, based on family size.
Syag,
It was a legitimate question, and my reply wasn’t meant as a strawman response. I was opining that the watch/bracelet are not indicitave of a larger problem exclusive to people from the tri-state area. You can disagree, but it was a legitimate response.
I also don’t think it’s fair to criticize my use of a term which you have used yourself (for example:
3: What the minimum is depends on location, but it is significantly less than what is “standard”.
I don’t know what you consider standard.
i dont consider a bracelet or watch to even be considerations for people who cant afford them. there is no comparison between managing without a watch/bracelet and having turkey sandwiches.
Maybe they shouldn’t be, but they are. The reality is that, whether we like it or not, they are of symbolic importance to most (not all) chassanim and kallahs, though perhaps there is a big difference in town or out of town.
I would think nixing a shidduch because of a bracelet or watch wouldn’t be prudent, as I don’t think it represents an entirely different value system; it’s just a silly quirk we’ve developed.
Kapusta,
A) Costs have been reduced, and for a typical “yeshivish” or chassidish chasunah, there’s not much more to cut, short of what Mammele described.
B) A tallis is not exactly a luxury, nor a great expensive.
C) Again, depends on what’s expected. It’s not correct to expect something which would be embarrassing. I’m also not sure it would save a lot. I’m kind of with you on vorts. I really wish we could do away with those, but again, you can’t ask a poor chooson/kallah to be the trend setter.
Mammele, it seems gavra is fine with that, based on point #1 to me, above.
Hey DY – sometimes its embarrassing to not have what everyone else has.
Agreed.
This is because our society has made it embarrassing to be poor.
No, it’s because it’s human nature to feel bad when you have less than most. As you wrote, “Trust me, its hard to show off a painfully obvious non-kallah bracelet…it’s very difficult.”, and I would hope that good friends would simply comment how beautiful it is, whether it’s got diamonds or not.
There is more than one perspective on this. There’s the valid point that our society has set even the minimum standard too high.
There is the perspective of the non recipient, who needs to set her/his priorities straight and appreciate what they do have, rather than focus on what they didn’t get.
My focus in this discussion, however, is from the POV of the potential donor, who, I would hope, when approached with a situation where one or both sides can’t afford to make a chasunah according to basic community minimum standards, will recognize it as a perfectly valid form of hachnosas kallah.
What would anyone here say about a wedding in the shul basement where the entire seudah is challah rolls and jarred gefilte fish, and the only jewelry is a gold wedding band (or who knows, maybe they can get a heter to use fake as long as it’s worth a perutah and she knows), and the kallah wears her nicest Shabbos outfit, and the music is from the chosson’s friend’s mp3 player and Bluetooth speaker?
80 is no longer a mod. Despite his anavah in saying he was “demodded” (http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/why-is-the-left-pro-islam#post-568689), he actually gave it up in his own, I believe to spend more time learning.
The poor among us should not just be helped to get by, but should be raised to the level of everyone else who helps pay for it.
Do you really not see a difference between a chasunah in Torah V’yirah and one in The Palace? Do you really think all kallahs are getting the same jewelry?
More importantly, you can bemoan the state of our materialism, or your incorrect perception of bleeding heart liberalism (don’t you agree that “shelo l’vayesh mi she’ein lo” is a Torah concept?), all you want, but l’maaseh, if someone asks you for a donation so that a poor chosson can buy his kallah a diamond bracelet, or so that the caterer in Torah V’yirah can be paid, are you really going to refuse on principle, knowing that in fact, there might be embarrassment and bad feelings?
So if that’s the only kasha, I’m still believing the story.
No, you’re not. You’re just inventing a third story, which happens to be more similar to Sam’s story than to R’ Kahn’s story.
Really, you should talk to people in this type of situation before making your incorrect statements. Find out how much it costs to make a basic chasunah in a normal, low-end hall, and find out what all the other expenses are (and that they’re collectively a lot more than the hall).
Can I open a Vanguard account with $10 (even assuming that the $10 isn’t needed for food, rent, shoes, tuition, etc.)?
A maamin, thank you.
Gavra, you are making an assumption, that families have that $10 per week, per kid, to put away. That’s often not the case. A lot of people aren’t even making ends meet.
Also, 11k is a fraction of what’s necessary in the real world.
Who gets 6% nowadays? I don’t even know that 2% is easy with small sums.
L’shitascha, you have put imagined scenarios into a real world discussion.
You need an awful lot of daas to know what to ask, and an awful lot of daas to know who is truly a chochom.
Your password must be whatever it was last time you logged in.
I just edited my email address successfully.
Find some other shul to daven in.
Have you tried a phone call, or an email?
Because being married is better than being single.
Because being married is better than being single.
DY. I dont know what I would say if the situation came up. I know how I feel now, and assume I would say then, what I feel now.
I’m very doubtful that you would say to your child, “G-d forbid that you have non-white children”, or the less mild things Shidduchproblem refers to, or that you would talk about gene pools.
I’d suggest you carefully monitor your behavior towards the new child, as you must be showering extra attention on her in order to make her feel welcome
That’s actually a good thing.
What needs to be monitored is that Froggie’s daughter is getting extra attention.
Troll through the mail? (Kinda difficult to post that way.)
Apt, there’s a big difference between feeling that way (we’re all human) and saying it, which is a gross lack of middos.
There is a lot more to cultural conflicts than minhagim. Yes, though; her parents do sound racist.
Well, obviously, the Torah is in Lashon Hakodesh.
the Holocaust was so obviously the Yad Hashem it is worthless to project
That is so correct. The question should not be looked at from a sociopolitical perspective, but from a ruchniyus one.
Apushatayid, probably agreeing, but ?? ?????.
You have to understand that according to many acharonim (Even Haozer, Achiezer, Chazon Ish, etc.), turning on a light, even using the KosherSwitch, would still be an issur min haTorah. At best, you would be reducing the issur to a d’rabbonon (Mogen Avraham, and possibly, according to Chasam Sofer). You’d actually be better off switching all the bulbs to LED.
This way, nobody thinks it’s muttar, and it would only be used by a non Jew for a choleh, or in a situation of pikuach nefesh, when you wouldn’t want the delay, and when it’s muttar anyhow.
That’s what I was referring to.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/going-to-ey-for-a-date#post-568001
EY.
That’s not what you meant?
Since when does Ernst and Young have a hepatitis problem?
I think it shows that the objection to the prenup is more subtle, less black and white, than being presented here.
What’s the hashkafic issue? If a couple signed an agreement to go to R’ Nissim Karelitz’ beis din, would there be a hashkafic objection?
Yes, but it seems to me that 1 and 3 are more common than 2.
Interesting how he has no problem with an agreement to go to a specific beis din.
Of course, that’s totally different when there are no other conditions.
How is the trick accomplished?
How is the pigeon method political? It either works or is quackery, but why political?