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The waitresses in your average hotel lounge are dressed no worse than in your average kosher restaurant
There were some restaurants I wouldn’t go back to because of that. I hope they aren’t typical. Being in close quarters is worse than being in the street, IMO.
Then for the most part, we’re not in agreement.
He has to consult his Rav.
That depends entirely on how you define “the shidduch crisis”.
Are the threads started by the boys three years older than the threads started by the girls?
I agree with Gavra. Also with IvduEsHashemBsimchsa. Also with Dr. Seuss.
In addition, Shopping613, it’s very valuable to learn and review the halachos of particular issues which someone has difficulties with. In this case, for example, make a seder with a sefer, chavrusah, or attend (or listen to recordings of) a shiur in hilchos basar b’chalav and hilchos berachos. You may already know the halachos of the particular challenges which you face, but putting time and effo4t into it should still strengthen you. Hatzlochah, we’re pulling for you.
I am well aware of how the community thinks, I know a relative who turned down a very nice bocher who was the son of a big doctor because he didnt want to promise that he would learn past 10 years in favor of a bachor who promised to learn for the rest of his life who came from a kollel family
(The richer bocher was not a snob or anything and I was told he was a very good catch from a very good family, just that he didnt want to promise (He didnt say he woulndt, just that he couldnt predict the future and didnt want to make a promise if things would change)
(I suppose that post was in response to popa but the order got switched.)
It’s amazing how you claim to know how the community thinks, yet cite a story which represents a tiny fraction of people.
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Rebbe Yid, I think the OP means boys who will be in kollel a whole day for the first years of marriage, not that they will stay in kollel forever.
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For some perspective on the idea of a serious learner not getting a degree or a job:
Or he would push off getting married. Ha Lan Ha Lehu.
So you would advocate for a change in the “system” which would have boys starting to go out at 28?
She becomes a shidduch crisis statistic.
Yes, I think it behooves any young lady to be realistic, and not limit herself to go out with boys who would not want to go out with her.
Lior, no problem.
FiF, I am saying that if he had a strong desire to learn full time, he could do it, because nowadays, a bochur can get by without working for money.
Why do you assume that I have an answer?
No, that was assumed in your phrase that she “doesn’t have the wherewithal”.
You tell me, what does she do?
I’m not trying to offer a solution. I’m telling you the reality. Maybe my wording was imprecise. Not only could these things be provided through tzedakah, it happens that way.
And if we have the same understanding of what it means to strongly desire to learn, those bochurim don’t have degrees.
FiF, these things could be provided through gemachs and other tzedakah money.
Generally, if a boy very strongly wished he would be able to learn after marriage, he would only go out with someone who has a good job or whose parents could provide support.
I think the OP is asking about a boy who will need to immediately be working after marriage
I don’t.
Popa, what if his parents are l”a unable to work, and he needs to chip in to help support the family? (My first thought was like you, though.)
I’ve been to a singles event. All the guys want to go out with the pretty girl.
This reminds me of one of the big issues I have with pictures. Sure, appearance can be important. But it shouldn’t be the ikkar.
The shidduch system has a huge advantage over socializing because the superficial aspect is downplayed, and isn’t a major factor in the decision to date (although may be more so in continuing, which is okay). Introducing pictures into the process shifts the focus from the ikkarim to the tafel by making looks a prerequisite to a date.
This problem always existed in the socializing model.
Gavra, first of all, without a job or parental support, less isn’t the issue, the issue is paying basic bills. Harbeh asu? Maybe, Hashem can certainly do anything, but ein somchin al haneis. Second, the objective here is to create more shidduchim, and in the real world, your approach will scare people off from getting married.
only in one case was he ever sorry that he did not simply cancel the date altogether
You made me very curious…
In any case, one should always be a mensch, regardless.
That’s the main thing.
Also ask your local Rabbi if he allows women to drive?
She says it’s fine.
I’m not talking luxury, gavra, I’m talking rent, clothing, and groceries. And you can’t expect to pay for them without some type of education/skill or known income.
Interjection: I don’t know what you mean.
I won’t bother discussing point by point, because I’ll say the same for all of them: you remain outside the realm of reality. (I agree with not getting Hugo Boss, never heard of Allen Edmunds).
I think you’re either overestimating an untrained person’s earning potential, underestimating the cost of living, not taking into account that he may want to spend his time learning and be unable to earn much, not taking into account that either or both of them may be in school and unable to earn much, or some combination of the above.
On the other hand the mother (or parents) wanting to actually meet her doesn’t bother me as much.
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I have heard of a practice that I found strange, distasteful, and a little hard to believe, wherein the boy’s mother and the girl both show up at a prearranged location and don’t speak at all (!!!) but the boy’s mother gets to see how she looks.
I would never agree to anything of this nature.
Agree with both.
do you mean obtaining the means to pay for one’s needs, or obtaining from others the means to pay for one’s needs?
I don’t care how they get he money (honestly, of course). I strongly disagree with your apparent assumption that any newly married couole, even without either having a job or reasonable expectation of one, can get by financially without parental help.
The cost of the apartment is part of the total figure of their cost of living, and if there’s no reasonable mehalach in how they can fund it, how can they get married?
ZD, you live in Kiryas Yoel? I never would have imagined.
RY23, in many situations, owning a car is much more expensive.
Can’t speak for popa (despite the fact that I sometimes do so).
I wouldn’t word it that way (you pin it on the paucity of “daddy’s bank account”, but you could just as easily have blamed it on his not having a job), but no, I don’t think it’s responsible to get married without some type of reasonably realistic means of support. You do?
Discussing which apartment to rent is fine, I don’t understand why it’s even part of the discussion.
I would not send a picture. If it were for the boy to see, I would probably nix the shidduch. If the mother wanted to see it, I wouldn’t send it either (she is not the one who needs to find pleasing aesthetics), but I would still consider the shidduch if they were willing to go ahead without the picture. (I am b”H a real father, but the situation is hypothetical).
Now, golfer (and anyone else out there, real or hypothetical), what would you do if the mother wanted to meet the girl first?
How would you, as a would-be shadchan, or as a hypothetical girl in shidduchim. (or her mother), answer with my question??
Can a hypothetical father answer the question?
Gavra,
So you retract your second idea, and go back to your first idea, to which I already responded, Speaking to one’s own parents doesn’t do enough if they can’t give enough.
Popa,
Money should be settled absolutely before the couple meets for the first time.
It should be definitively decided whether the wife will work, or the husband will work, or which parents will support and how much.
100% correct.
Waiting until after the engagement is just asking for broken engagements.
Would you mind please explaining why?
If they figure out that there simply won’t be enough money to live on, don’t you think it will, at the very least, put a tremendous strain and pressure on the situation?
He was resisting arrest, for which force is necessary, and there wasn’t especially brutal force in that context (although honestly, as someone who doesn’t often watch violent scenes, the whole thing was disturbing to me). So I don’t see any imperative to indict.
Politically, these things usually get classified as a ham sandwich, but legally, I don’t know enough to think there was any kind of mistake. I don’t think you do either, unless maybe you’re a criminal lawyer (is that redundant?) and not telling us.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=37946&st=&pgnum=464
I think R’ Moshe is learning (and the lashon of the Rambam sounds this way) that the added kedushah is not b’etzem, it’s a product of the extra chiyuvim. Kohanim, OTOH, have their extra mitzvos because of the higher level of kedushah.
Picteresq, as owl points out (his post wasn’t up when I posted), that question could be put to R’ Moshe as well. I think the answer is: more mitzvos.
Popa, does a kohen say that brachah when eating terumah? I’m only aware of it for duchaning, and other forms of avodah, but not for achilas terumah.
Even if they did, their achilah might be a mitzvah and a form of avodah, but nashim va’avadim would be a r’shus.
picturesq: Saying “Thank you Hashem for not making me like the other person” implies something negative about that other person.
No, it does not. It implies something less positive. This is not merely semantics, these are worlds apart hashkafically.
Men have more chiyuvim in mitzvos, but that doesn’t mean we’re on a higher madreigah than women.
Kohanim, though, are on a higher madreigah than Leviim and Yisraelim. The brachah for birchas kohanim is ??? ????? ??????? ?? ????, which connotes a higher level of kedushah.
Women, on the other hand, according to some Rishonim, can say the brachah of ??? ????? ???????? even on mitzvos for which they’re not obligated, become the p’tur isn’t based on a lower level. Even the Rishonim who disallow the brachah, as I recall, object to the lashon of ??????, because they’re not commanded.
Great point, Gamanit.
Also, when I posted, I hadn’t seen your post from page 1. Apparently, you and I saw a different video than Sam and ubiquitin saw. In the one we saw, he was resisting arrest, and the “chokehold” doesn’t really seem to be a cause of death, or even an attempt to harm him, just a maneuver to get him on the ground.
popa may have written it
Lol, yes, we in the CR are all kind of skeptical about anything on Wikipedia.
Another very important factor here is that the grand jury saw the video with the officer’s explanation of what he was thinking as everything was occurring.
Yes, Sam and ubiquitin, I saw the video. It is far from conclusive to me.
Is that a chokehold or a headlock? The officer let go almost immediately after Garner first said “I can’t breathe”, and he kept on saying “I can’t breathe”. The coroner’s report said there was no throat damage. There was compression of the chest, but I, as a layman, don’t see lethal force to the chest. If his health issues were a contributing factor, was the officer supposed to think he might be killing him? If not (and it’s not at all apparent that he’s trying to kill him), is he legally responsible? I assume the grand jury had more of this information than you or I do.
Was the grand jury correct or incorrect? I’m not sure either way, but neither can I understand how any of you are sure.
Why is it impractical, especially as I explained it to ChizukGedarim?
I don’t understand your explanation. Speaking to one’s own parents doesn’t do enough if they can’t give enough.
Waiting until after the engagement is just asking for broken engagements.
Yes
Can you believe it? The topic is shidduchim, and oomis and I agree!
What do contemporary Poskim say about this practice of asking for pictures?
So just be honest and say, “?????? ???? ??????”.
G@W: money should not be discussed until after the wedding
As you tend to do, you’ve expressed an admirable ideal which is, unfortunately, impractical.
DaasYochid, can you say with full confidence that the
matter of daters not being comfortable in each other’s
presence has nothing to do with the shidduch crisis?
That probably depends on how you define “the shidduch crisis”.
If we divide everything into rational/irrational, the OP sounds correct. If, however, we look at it in terms of the mind (logic) and the heart (emotion), we get a different picture.
????? ???? ????? ?? ????; emunah and bitachon start with the mind, and our job is to have our hearts join our minds.
I think if someone has enough bitachon, it probably would overcome anxiety. So I disagree about the two being entirely unrelated. However, most, if not all, people don’t actually have a high enough level of bitachon to overcome severe anxiety.
Thetefore, I don’t think that the way to approach it practically is to work on bitachon (although, of course, that’s a good idea for everyone, regardless of anxiety), I think it should be dealt with as the professionals would recommend (perhaps CBT?). The reason one person suffers from anxiety more than another is not usually because he has less bitachon, it’s because he has more anxiety. So I agree about the da ma shetashiv.
Partially agree with OP, partially disagree.
Moron this later…