Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
ROB, with all due respect, you are completely wrong about the strawberries. I have spoken to numerous people in the kashrus industry, a few who specialize in tolaim, and nobody says it’s muttar to eat them when washed in plain water.
Some say they shouldn’t be eaten unless peeled or blended, and some say cutting off the tops, then washing them well in soapy water is sufficient. The thrips which infest them stick well to the skin and the soap is needed to loosen them.
As a seeker of truth, I ask you to contact the kashrus agencies to confirm what I said, and, l’hosir michshol, report back your findings. Thank you.
Ushpizin, which last I checked is a movie!
You’re not up to date. It’s since become a visit from our Avos to the succah.
even if piskei halacha given online ARE correct, is it still bad because there is no rav giving you a personal answer? How important is aseh lecha rav, and personal situations in getting a teshuvah?
I think that’s a great question, and very l’maaaseh, because there are one or two internet/phone hotlines which I actually think are reliable.
It is obvious that the people who run these forums or email or phone services feel it’s worthwhile on the whole, but I assume that that’s because there are situations where your posek is not available, but I agree that one must be careful not to allow them to replace the “aseh lecho rav”.
not without the shadchan having a hissy fit 😛
Depends on the shadchan. I, even as an impartial observer, would consider that cheap, so, to clarify, I would agree that in terms of mentchlichkeit, it’s certainly relevant.
If anything, Oomis, the fact that the halachos of shadchanus have been discussed by the poskim for generations tells me that the way you described is not according to the Jewish tradition.
Apy, I would hope you’d tell us what the range is. I stated the fact that it’s a range at the beginning of the thread.
I guess it isn’t irrelevant after all.
I think it is mostly irrelevant. Al pi shuras hadin, a rich person can also choose to give the lower end of the range.
I think popa was comparing marriage to aveilus.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=44286&st=&pgnum=58&hilite=
Toward the end of this teshuvah, the Rivash explains what the Gemara means when it talks against marrying for money.
IS, there’s a big difference. If we find a remez in the Torah to a true idea, we can certainly say that Hashem meant the remez to be there. If someone sees a remez in the non Jewish sourced perakim, I’d just as soon point out that it says “v’higisa bo yomom volayla” and leave it at that.
Oh, sorry, Syag, I didn’t mean to continue our debate on my mistaken assumption. I fully accept your explanation that you didn’t mean to ch’v prioritize feelings over halacha. It would have been completely out of character, and I was shocked at what I thought you were saying, and pleased and relieved that you never meant it.
I’m not sure what I said now to make you think I’m rehashing anything, I just meant that what you were actually complaining about, which is a bad attitude on the part of shadchanim, may appear different in this virtual context than in real life. That’s it. And I don’t like Logician’s stubborn negative view of your position, I just didn’t see where he had changed his mind.
So to be clear, I completely believe that you’re on the side of halacha, and please forgive me if I wasn’t clear enough on that.
He sits and benches
Yes, after eating his spent grain bread. (or whatever that’s called)
Also, Syag, I think Logician’s posts have been very consistent.
Syag, I’m afraid you’re judging unfairly based on private thoughts expressed on an anonymous forum. The feeling that one is entitled to be paid for hard work, when halachically owed (and the saying goes that shadchanus gelt is the most kosher money) is quite natural and does not reflect bad middos. I doubt too many shadchanim would be less than gracious in person (or on the phone).
If it was halachically acceptable to give a candy dish, I’m sure AZOI.IS would not have written as he did. And I say this with great confidence now that he has shown that he (I for some reason am assuming it’s a he) is indeed a ba’al middos.
ROB, they’re not the same person.
I tip my hat to you for being modeh al ha’emes.
I agree that’s it’s hard to know where to draw the line, and I echoed a couple of ideas mentioned by other posters, which I believe are in fact suggested by contemporary poskim.
Halacha has not established the “going rate”
Of course it has, and will, and when you make a simcha, b’sha’h tovah, you’ll do the necessary research to find out what it is at that time.
Trust me, he wont! Some people are just “koch-leffels/hock-a cheiniks”.
That was uncalled for. I don’t know Avram personally. From his posts here, though, he seems very reasonable and thought out. In fact, he is one of my favorites, and I find myself agreeing to most of what he writes. I think he is just unaware in this case, and you could have simply said that you see a different standard for shadchanus than he does.
There’s no reason to talk that way about a poster who is always polite and respectful.
Avram, do you have evidence that AZ’s numbers are not correct? If not, you should not be jumping on the OP for inflating them.
let the market go and determine a rate
It does, l’halacha. What do you mean, “let it”?
not much has been done to establish what is “normal”
When you say, “establish”, do you really mean, “to publicize”?
I found, a bit further, where the Pri Chodosh, who lived over three hundred years ago, discusses the need to check for (even) tiny bugs, and even without merely looking at it: 84-34. I think it’s a pretty strong source for light boxes and use of magnifying glasses.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=38070&st=&pgnum=147
(last four lines, starting with the words, “????? ???”).
He mentions a type of infestation in which the bugs can only be seen by holding the leaves against the sun, and that sometimes, even in sunlight, they are so small that they cannot be seen even that way, so you need to feel for them with your hands. He then mentions a type of infestation in which the bugs are so small that they cannot be found with any method, so the food may not be eaten.
I know that this seems to contradict the halachically accepted notion that bugs which are not “nireh l’einaim” are muttar, but I don’t think it necessarily does. Veltz alluded to one possible solution, that if it’s visible but not identifiable without a visual aid, it is nevertheless assur once we do identify it. Popa had alluded to another possible solution, as did Gavra, I believe, that the bug is visible when it moves, but we cannot see it when it’s stationary.
Either way, it’s there in black and white that bugs which are “dakim b’tachlis” are assur and asser the produce.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=38070&st=&pgnum=147
Doesn’t talk about idiots, but I think Sam is being overly kind in assuming that the issue here is a lack of intelligence.
No one who states Halachic opinions here has any idea what they’re talking about.
A bit harsh, no?
An anonymous forum is indeed not included in “eid echad”, so nothing is halachically reliable, but there are two or three posters who seem to have a bit of a clue.
I agree with LF and MDG.
Thank you, Goq.
I’m quite pleased with your retraction.
I also agree with your implied disagreement with popa’s last paragraphs. I think shadchanim are generally needed, and that the fact that they are needed has no impact on the halachic requirement to pay them.
Syag, are you retracting your repeated assertion that the financial means of the mechutanim determines the proper amount?
Apy,
So, it does not depend on the shadchans personal feelings either now, does it. Why do you malign someone who gives an amount less than what you believe is THE proper amount.
I don’t and didn’t. I maligned the notion that it’s not decided by market conditions, as halacha states, but by personal whim or ability to pay. And please don’t make this personal, I am not maligning people, just vehemently opposing some erroneous ideas.
One must also consult with a halachic authority before unilaterally deciding to malign a whole bunch of people because their personal whim calls for $2500 and they only got $750 or a candy dish.
Again, I never gave an amount. But in any community, surely shadchanus in usually more than a candy dish.
If the halacha states that in absence of a pre arranged agreement or a pre determined market rate set by beis din (or the market), then the shadchan is not the one who determines the market rate, the market does
I lost you there. If there’s no rate set by the market, then the market sets the rate? What does that mean?
I don’t think anyone argued (certainly not I) that the shadchan sets the rate ex post facto, just that the rate is indeed set by the market, which, as pba said, means what most people give.
Did I say on his phone? I meant on his pocket organizer. (remember those ones in like 1991 that could send a message like 20 feet to another one if they were visible?)
Hashta d’asis l’hochi, just say she was sending a message to you by telling him on the phone(voice).
Sam, in fleishig’e cast iron pans. Do you remember that thread? One of my favorites.
Goq, that’s where he posts in the CR (when WiFi reception in his mother’s basement isn’t strong).
I read it three times for good measure. You win the debate against the straw man, hands down.
What did they attack him for?
he’s always davening (probably for daas
I hope he’s davening for me.
You kept telling me that when I said I dont want to pay $1000, I am going against halacha
I never said that either. I never said an amount.
My issue is that you’re against the idea of putting a number to it philosophically, because the shadchan doesn’t deserve it, which you would never say regarding a real estate broker. And that you somehow think that your inability to pay plays a role, unlike to a real estate broker.
If you would admit that it’s a chov like any other, as the halacha says, but merely argue that in your neighborhood the going rate is less, I would think you’re on the right track, and then we could discuss the numbers.
I said $1000?
It probably is at least that in NY, but when did I ever say it?
Syag,
Some direct quotes from you:
“I don’t think a person can consider being a shadchan as being a job.”
Well, halacha, in any meaningful way, does.
“If I can’t find $5 for my kids class gift to someone, how can you tell me I NEED to come up with that kind of money.”
Where does halacha reduce an obligation based on inability to pay? (without mechila)
“What a crazy concept that facilitating a marriage that was ordained by Hashem himself ENTITLES you to money I need to feed my kids.”
Again, not halachically correct. Providing a service does halachically entitle one to monetary compensation.
I don’t think I misquoted; I copied and pasted.
It seems you’re arguing in concept, not merely amount or location. If you were to tayna that in your location, the amount is lower, I would be fine with that.
He wonders what to write in the CR. And learns Daf Yomi. And drinks beer.
What am I missing?
Goq, we’re in Yoma, not Bubba Mitzia.
Apy,
What is the market rate? If I gave a shadchan $500 and said shadchan took me to beis din because they felt they were entitled to $1000, what would beis din say to me?
That obviously would depend on what they would pasken is the market rate for the community involved.
The definition of community is also something needing psak.
L’maaseh, it rarely, if ever, ends up in beis din, but someone needs to consult with a posek before unilaterally deciding what or how much to give, because it’s a halachic issue and not dependent on personal whim.
Syag,
If Hashem is happy with a “gift”, how dare you act like $100 is an insult!
No, Hashem is not “happy” when we don’t pay what we’re obligated to.
You have no right to decide to define something as (exclusively) chessed when halacha defines it as a chargeable service. I’m sorry, but the Shulchan Aruch’s definition beats yours.
Besalel, you think it’s a lack of derech eretz to follow the R’ma?
In other words, I don’t understand where you’re coming from.
Would it be considered ????????? ?????? and therefore ???? ??? ??????
i just think its absurd to think of shadhunis as a business. it is disgusting.
Do you think it’s disgusting that the halachos are in the Choshen Mishpat section of the Shulchan Aruch?
BTW, this has been discussed in the CR before. Here is a post from a thread which someone may want to read through in its entirety.
Many attempts were made for the Kallah. How would you proceed?
Another post/thread:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/shadchanus-gelt#post-278586
No. If you would have the same attitude toward a social worker (or someone in any other profession) who wanted market level compensation, then I wouldn’t think you are taming it out on shadchanim. But I don’t think you would.
Syag, no difference halachically. Some of my examples were services anyhow.
As far as feeling entitled, it’s all a gift from the RBS’O anyhow, and we shouldn’t feel entitled, so I don’t know why you’re taking it out on shadchanim.
Right. Shochtim, mohelim, rebbeim, esrog dealers, seforim store owners, sofrim, etc. should all work for free. How nauseating that they make a (meager for the most part) living.
I’m sorry for the sarcasm, but the truly nauseating thing going on here is seeing how many people think their emotions trump halachah.
Syag,
If the halachah says you are obligated to pay something, then you do NEED to pay it, financial hardship notwithstanding.
Syag, you just made up your own hashkafah which is against the halachah.
Popa, ever hear of ????? ?????? ????? ????????
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/ou-kashrus-is-not-reliable#post-384209
For those who think any infestation must have been around hundreds of years ago, here’s the Pri Chodosh (84, 22) saying that it constantly changes.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=24532&st=&pgnum=330&hilite=
I agree with DaMoshe on this one (although I haven’t seen it).
Don’t forget Oomis.