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There are also those who disagree with R’ Moshe and require it m’dina by chasunos. The minhag in yeshivah circles has been that way for decades.
ok
I don’t think it hurts to slowly get to know a prospective chooson or kallah over the course of a few months, not mere weeks.
It most certainly can hurt. Dating is not a natural relationship, and is certainly nothing like marriage, so beyond a certain point, the negatives outweigh the positives.
I guess we will have to agree to respectfully disagree.
Are we allowed to do that in the coffee room?
5
It’s also Oiver Dina D’malchusa Dina by smoking Pot.
I don’t think we pasken that way.
Do I detect a “higher than thou” attitude?
So what’s the big deal? Why did you have to delete it?
Oom, depends on which font your browser’s using.
I wasted $20,000
Real money, or game money?
I think what Rebdoniel expressed is a legitimate opinion.
He didn’t address having no army, which I haven’t seen an argument for. He addressed keeping a specific group out.
I haven’t seen the argument that given current political circumstances, we don’t need an army. If the entire country were frum, and everyone was a masmid (and moshiach still hadn’t come, and the Arabs still had the desire for “v’lo yizacher shem Yisrael od”, of course some people who would otherwise be learning would need to be in the army.
But that’s far from the reality. There’s an army which presents a very reasonable hishtadlus, but there’s never such a thing as “enough” learning; not for the actual mitzvah, and not for the “magne umatzleh” which it brings about.
DY, I wasn’t or didn’t mean to hint at a higher divorce rate ping the yeahivish crowd than the modern crowd at all.
I didn’t think you did, I think Oomis did (although she may not have realized it). I still think your argument needs explanation. It’s hard to blame an increasing (l”a) divorce rate on a particular style of dating when the increased rate is not only found amnng the grup with such a practice.
Believing that the physical safety of EY depends on keeping Haredim out of the army is logically the same attitude that I can not work and still be rich
Believing that the physical safety of the people in EY has nothing to do with how much learning is going on is kefirah in divrei Chaza”l.
I think you make some great points, notasheep. You also said it better than I when you called some people’s problem commitment issues rather than indecisiveness.
Just semantics
You framed the argument in a distorted way, using “just semantics”, to make the anti-draft position look silly.
When the government wants to take the lesser learners and help them in some way
They have no interest in helping anybody. If they want to help, let them work on the books. If you think Yair Lapid is trying to help chareidim, I’ve got several bridges and tunnels to show you at bargain prices.
Why is the root causes being ignored.
There us no single root cause. Each case is different. Trying to blame it on a system is a convenient way of getting out of the hard work of being mechanech individual children.
I’m very sad today. I didn’t win the fiveishmobile. 🙁
I think that what MoraRach writes has a great deal of merit, if you will stop and think about it. Dating for tachlis should not be about a specific NUMBER of dates being the magic one.
I agree that there should be no specific number, but disagree that it should drag on for months and months. At a certain point, there’s more to lose than to gain by continuing. If someone can hide anger for ten dates, they can (and do, if necessary) hide it for twenty, thirty, forty etc. dates. No matter how many months, or even years, people date, it’s still not marriage.
Again, you hint at a higher divorce rate among the yeshivah crowd which uses shidduch dating than the more modern, who don’t, but it’s simply not true at all, to my observation.
I’m not sure there is a big difference between having different academic levels within the same yeshiva, or different level yeshivas?
This is not just my own observation, it is becoming standard practice for mesivta high schools to stay small (not so chadarim) for this reason. I’ve spoken to serious mechanchim about this.
Those who are for the draft claim What if a guy is not a great learner and is “Goofing around” or not up to the task
And the response has been EVERYONES Torah is equal before hashem.
I think you made that up. The arguments have been, for the most part, against drafting those who are learning, no matter their LEVEL, not no matter their hasmada, and against a treife army which is no place for a nice Jewish boy to be.
R”Moshe zz’l brings proof that no mechitza is needed by a “chasunoh” from korbon pessach- when families ate together and no separation was required to eat together. So, it seems pretty clear that we are talking about eating together-without separate seating.
There’s absolutely no indication that there was mixed seating (other than no mechitzah). It is clear, though, that there were separate families, yet no mechitzah.
I think there was a story recently about a Jew who got a heart attack from winning a lotto
There are a lot more stories of Jews who suffered heart attacks from not being able to pay off their debts.
Write or wrong, when I refer to “best” and “worst”, I am referring to behavior, not academics. My concern is that the “better” kids not be negatively by the others. (I am not referring to your situation at all, this was a tangent).
I’m not sure why you think affirmative action is applicable to yeshivos, though. The assumption made by those who support affirmative action is, i believe, that certain ethnic groups were discriminated against, and a quota would give them a fair chance. In other words, they really could be on a par academically. I don’t think that’s the kind of discrimination we’re talking about.
A case could be made fore academic based segregation (not exclusion) as well, though. A classroom normally functions better when there’s not as much disparity. If the focus is on the stronger students, the weaker ones will be left out. If the focus is on the weaker students, the stronger ones will be under-stimulated. Teaching to both levels simultaneously is a feat which most educators are not capable of.
The question becomes (usually in what we call mesivta in the U.S.) whether to have different tracks in the same yeshiva, or more yeshivos. Some feel that it makes sense to have more yeshivos, without “tracking”, so that the weaker students don’t get labelled B students, which almost dooms them to academic failure. This effect is felt much stronger in schools with parallel classes on different levels; much less so between different yeshivos.
:Q
Someone smoking?
Rather it shows that perhaps the shiddych system is somewhat flawed.
Is there a better system? Do you prefer a system which causes more issurim, has a worse (certainly no better) success rate, but the couple fools themselves into thinking they’re 100% sure?
Did R’ Avigdor Miller Zt”l celebrate Yom Yerushalayim?
The yetzer hora has ez-pass.
But ask any Gadol if a Yeshiva should not take someone because the parents arent as “frum” as you are
I suppose nobody would answer “yes” to such a vaguely worded question. Ask a more specific question, and you might get a different answer.
I’ve heard this issue about MO schools, and if true, it’s horrible. Inability to pay rarely results in non acceptance or expulsion in Chareidi schools. But what I really meant was to ask if those educated in MO or DL schools are more likely to stay frum (although that’s hardly the only marker for successful chinuch).
DY: That is a nice Chilluk to make and it’s true for the vast majority of people (though I have heard otherwise normal and knowledgeable people throw the words “Srugi” or “Black Hatter” around as intended insults).
Again, those insults are based on what’s perceived to be inside, not really on the headgear (as you agree).
It’s idiotic to judge a person based on externals like what type of Kippah is worn.
That depends for what. There’s no question that at times we all prejudge. Sometimes it’s useful, and, probably more often,
harmful.
Sam2, if that Agudah representative was guilty of thinking the yarmulka is more important than what’s underneath, he wouldn’t have cared what kind of shiur the fellow gave. Your story actually illustrates my point.
The point you may wish to make is about prejudices and assumptions based on externals, but I don’t know people who actually think these externals are more important.
while I personally do not believe that it really helps the situation to forbid normal kids from going to the local pizza places
Oomis, you’re coming from a totally different frame of reference. You think the socializing is okay. The menahalim involved think it’s assur.
The root isnt that these kids dont realize their menhahel disapproves! The root is much much much deeper, probably touching things like messed up chinuch, hashkafos skewed in their mind, lack of loving teaching ingraining these values in them, etc.
You’re forgetting that there’s a yetzer hora involved. Many of these kids are not missing a loving home or proper values, they just need some discipline to keep them from doing something wrong.
You can ace a pin test and barely read Hebrew.
We’re not talking about people who studied for a pin test. We’re talking about people whose hasmada happened to yield the ability to pass a pin test.
Nobody, including WIY, claimed it’s inherently valuable.
I think too many people are hung up on what type of kippah is being worn, versus what type of mensch is wearing it.
Do you really think there are so many people who think that way? I don’t know anyone like that, do you?
If Space is scarce, make more space.
You’re the one who asserted that there isn’t enough space, so go ahead and open another yeshivah if you wish.
You said this thread exposes flaws in the Charedi “system”. Do you think there’s a “system” which is more successful? Do MO or DL not also have chinuch challenges?
Can anyone give a Torahic answer to the question posed?
The color and material of a yarmulka usually fall in the category of d’var r’shus.
Special in deed.
In my opinion, if a person can’t decide whether they want to make a commitment after 10 dates, there is something wrong with the way they are looking at the shidduch process.
or with their ability to make a decision.
I don’t agree with using a specific number, though. People and situations are different.
Because spaces are scarce, everyone wants the best and the rest get left behind
Are you suggesting that, with spaces scarce, they should accept the “worst”, and leave the “best” behind?
nobody is thinking of it as a third choice of headwear
??
but rather a, “he wears a STRAW hat?” issue. Which, kind sir, is a “holier than thou” attitude.
What’s holy about it? Maybe it’s a “more stylish than thou” or “less nebbish than thou” attitude.
the spiritual dangers of smoking
Please explain.
Yiddishkite says all jewish newshamas are precious and must be educated in yehsiva
Frumkeite – I dont want MY kid in a yeshiva with THAT kid because his parents have internet and I dont want MY kid infected with such shtus
What you’ve just described is a dilemma which every mossad has – how ti balance the needs of all Jewish children.
Of course, it would be wonderful if all children would be accepted to whichever school they wanted, and nobody would ever be negatively influenced by others. But that’s not what happens.
You may feel that exclusivity is callous to those neshomos who need to find another school, but you’re ignoring the fact that accepting certain kids might be callous to other neshamos.
Do RY and menahalim make mistakes, or even err because of bias? Of course. But that not “frumkeit”, that’s “humankeit”.
brony be right
bring be missing da point
Nobody thinks passing the pin test is an accomplishment. It represents something special, though.
Modern Orthodoxy is called Modern because it deals with how halacha applies in the modern world – where the Shulchan Aruch and Mishna Brurah don’t tell us what to do, because the circumstances didn’t exist yet at those times.
In fact, it was only Modern Orthodox rabbis who dealt with issues such as electricity and advanced medicine in halachah.
Apparently today we are more “frum” than they were.
I assume that was meant sarcastically, so I’ll ask: have you actually heard anyone claim that third choice of headgear is proof that we are frummer?
Where did this idea come from?
If it’s unaccompanied by understanding, and based on pure memorization, then it’s no big deal. If it comes from years of intense learning, then it is.
I did not, however, mention about reform, conservative etc cuz I had no idea what to answer her on that
You did, when you said that some don’t choose to observe.
Either weight or money. Is there anything else?
It should be a math question; will the increased revenue from the annoying ads be more ir less than the revenue from the growth.
He’s perfectly within his rights. I hope, for his sake, that he’s not being penny wise and pound foolish.
Maybe I’m out of it, but I just don’t know anyone who smokes pot. Unless people don’t want to tell me, which is certainly possible.
It’s that big cover up Charlie’s talking about.
In fact, you probably smoke pot yourself, you just cover it up so well that you don’t even realize it.
?????? ?? ??