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Hello99,
I’m not sure where you get your parameters of levels 1 & 2. I have it differently, and I’ll provide sources.
I would there fore break down the levels as follows:
1) Things which although might enhance oneg Shabbos, are not essential. For these, not even a shvus d’shvus is permitted.
Some or all of these cases would be muttar according to the R’ma.
Would you like fries with that?
One for me, one for my friend Dan Quayle.
Was hoping Chrome didn’t have it.
I probably wouldn’t use it if it didn’t. Spell check was one the original reasons I switched away from IE (does the newest version have it?).
maybe you were just being a little cavalier
You’re right, that was too cavalier (not just a little).
I still stand by the statement that most could come up with the $5k if they had confidence that it would help, notwithstanding that it might be very difficult. People somehow come up with more than $20k for seminary, with the rationale that it’s necessary for shidduchim (although I’m personally with BPT that it’s not). Also, most “girls” who are 22 and above have been working for a couple of years and have some money saved up.
the MB says the Mechaber doesn’t hold of this Taam.
Because we don’t have to assume it was raw, but raw, inedible foods are muktzah.
Because who is doing the cooking? The goy is. In my case it’s the Jew.
I misunderstood your case; if you did the cooking, then I guess you were oiver an issur d’oraiso.
“But he says/brings many cases of Ameira L’acum that he is Matir in situations of Tzorech Godol. Check it out!”
As I said, there was no answer.
Tzorech Shabbos is Not Tzorech Godol!
Then I guess you didn’t have a tzorech gadol.
1) The yeshivos in E.Y. are not the same as the yeshivos in chutz la’aretz.
2) When a boy gets married, the parnassah clock starts ticking.
3) Whether someone learns better as a bochur or as a yungerman depends on the boy, there’s no all – encompassing rule. My observation is that most metzuyanim are better off single (less responsibility – reichayim al tzaavaro v’yaasok b’Torah?).
There’s actually a built-in spelling checker.
That’s a function of the browser, not the website, and not all browsers have it.
Do you really expect anybody to take your words seriously?
No, but at least take the words of the Mishna Berurah seriously.
?? ?????? . ??? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???????? ??????
Maybe your potatoes, beans and barley are edible raw?
Oh, I read it and he is explaining why it’s Ossur to eat a Goy’s food even if he cooked it for himself.
??? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ????
????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ???
Yup, you are right -that’s exactly what I hold; NOT!
??????? ??????? ????????? ??? ???????? ???-????? ??????? ?????? ??? ?????????? ???-???????? ????????? ?????? ?????? ???????????? ?????? ?????????????.
Who said it wasn’t secured in the outlet? Or you thought you plugged it in, but you didn’t?
You.
“I don’t have access to that sefer,”
That’s not my problem. I’m sure you could order it.
Are you sponsoring?
“and even so, kavod habrios is bigger than your cholent; if you disagree, you’ll need to bring a raya”
We actually had this discussion on the previous page. And I answered you over there. Check it out!
No answer there. If you think there was, please quote or link to the post.
“You also claimed that he addresses it in B’er Moshe, which I do have access to, but for some reason you have not been able to provide that source.”
I think it’s there also, but I’m like you -I don’t want to go searching for it.
The difference is, you claim you saw it there.
As far as 328, you gotta be a little specific on what your Raya is!
I was; I’ll repeat:
The R’ma in 328 allows bishul al y’dei aku”m for a child who has no other food, because a child has a din of a choleh. If the R’ma were mattir a d’oraiso for the mitzvah of oneg Shabbos, this would be true even for a healthy adult.
“You should also check out Aruch Hashulchan 34 – 36, who learns the R’ma distiction between a food which had cooled and one still warm, as applying to kavod Shabbos, and a mitzvah which would be muttar in a case of shvus d’shvus, but NOT a d’oraiso.”
Now which case are you talking about – the case of Tzorech Godol or 253?
Look it up. My point is that 253 is the same “tzorech gadol” you had.
At least you’re Modeh B’miksas!
???
Just because you both say you’re right -doesn’t make you right -only in your minds!
How many times are you going to say that?
Of course I was not pleased.
Well, then, I don’t think you can have it both ways.
How is Rabbonim signing a letter advocating an organization, drastically different than Rabbonim making Takanos?
Mandatory vs. optional
Either you like empowering Rabbonim and you like your life being controlled by Rabbonim (hopefully we all do), or you dont. What is this “pick and choose” tone youre employing here?
See the post following yours for the response by the one my post was addressed to.
6: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/new-miami-boys-choir#post-266364 (thanks, Google)
8: Neshome’le
I loved dveykus growing up
I still love D’veykus – especially the early ones.
I brought the M”B in 225 not as a raya, but as a possible explanation for why even the R’ma would asser by bishul.”
Yea -what’s the explanation?
Read the M”B; someone who pakens shailos by himself surely can read and understand a M”B.
Say after me -Yoshon, Yoshon, Yoshon!
I did not follow the Yoshon discussion, but I’m not sure if you’re making a basic mistake in assuming Yoshon was assered by Chaza”l; it is in fact, d’oraiso.
You know the gas in the balloon can run out or that the fire won’t last -so since you set it up this way to cook on Shabbos like this -this is like Peshiah.
They did set it up to last; occasionally (as the Darchei Moshe says), it would go out.
In my case the crock pot can burn the whole Shabbos, but you forgot to plug it in or it got unplugged.
You should have plugged it in and made sure the plug was secure. Big peshia! (I’m arguing l’shitoscha; your whole point is irrelevant and invented.)
I provided the source on the page before -read my posts before responding:
“He says why you can tell the Goy to open the bathroom light in your house in ???? ?”? in the Hebrew section.” Piskei Hilchos Shabbos vol. 4.
I don’t have access to that sefer, and even so, kavod habrios is bigger than your cholent; if you disagree, you’ll need to bring a raya.
You also claimed that he addresses it in B’er Moshe, which I do have access to, but for some reason you have not been able to provide that source.
If you have a RAYA that I’m wrong – by all means post it, until then stop with the semantics!
I have brought several; even if you erroneously think there’s a difference between your case and 253, you need to explain the R’ma in 328. You should also check out Aruch Hashulchan 34 – 36, who learns the R’ma distiction between a food which had cooled and one still warm, as applying to kavod Shabbos, and a mitzvah which would be muttar in a case of shvus d’shvus, but NOT a d’oraiso.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=9101&st=&pgnum=47
Hello99 and I are mostly arguing semantics (the term tzorech gadol vs. tzorech Shabbos), and whether one, in theory one would have to protest. We agree, however, that what you did was clearly assur according to all shittos we follow (and I think even according to the shittos we don’t follow).
Again, you are confusing Tzorech Shabbos, which you correctly quote MB325:62 as “somewhat difficult to do without” with Tzorech Gadol.
As I said earlier, there are (at least) two levels of tzorech gadol; Health’s case was one of not having cholent, which would be the lower one which is called tzorech or kavod Shabbos, and subject to all of the dinim in 253, 325, and 328.
Again, R’ Moshe seems to feel that even important Shabbos foods reach the criteria of “tzorech gadol”; he says that if the “ikar ma’achalei Shabbos” are in a refrigerator, one can ask a nochri to remove the bulb so that the Yid can later get the food. It’s possible to learn that R’ Moshe’s tzorech gadol is that he’s afraid that a Yid will open the fridge, turning on the light, and be oiver on havarah d’oraiso if the nochri doesn’t remove the bulb, and that this concern is only if the main foods are there, but this is not the pashtus in this teshuva.
“I don’t think one would be required to protest if someone had the R’ma to rely on”
See the Aruch HaShulchan I quoted above that you must.
One can rely on R’ Moshe not to protest.
Unless it was k’Ma’achal ben Drusai before Shabbos, which is most likely the case.
Health intimated earlier that it was raw.
That being the case, besides for the issurim of amira l’aku”m and bishul aku”m, I think there’s a third issur of muktzeh (unless in your 150 pages of mareh m’komos on muktzeh someone holds that if you thought food was cooked, it’s not muktzeh even though it was actually raw). Only the meat might not be a problem (I think some contemporary poskim hold raw meat is muktzeh because it’s no longer common to eat raw meat).
“Do you really want the gedolei hador to start making mandatory takanos?”
Why not? Haven’t they done so already many times regarding Internet usage, Lipa Schmeltzer concerts, and so forth?
Were you honestly pleased with those “takanos”? (I’m wondering, if you are, how you manage to post here without internet)?.
Most can. As for those who can’t, you’re invited to raise money; I’m sure NASI will take your donations and sponsor those who can’t afford it (contact NASI to verify, I’m just guessing).
if we charge based on hardship they should really be paying at lest double.)
Interesting – so you think the shadchanus is too low. Again, contact NASI with your suggestion to raise it.
Hello99,
Even if he were not a da’as yochid (as I suspect he’s not, based on IG”M, and based on cases brought in R’ Yitzchak Zilberstein’s sefer on amira l’akum in which he’s mattir a d’oraiso (kavod habrios is one – he is mattir having a non-Jew fix a toilet if water cannot be brought in), one still cannot extrapolate from one case to another. The Mogen Avraham says this regarding a shvus (307:7) and it would certainly apply to a d’oraiso.
The R’ma in 328 allows bishul al y’dei aku”m for a child who has no other food, because a child has a din of a choleh. If the R’ma were mattir a d’oraiso for the mitzvah of oneg Shabbos, this would be true even for a healthy adult.
I’m not sure how you learn R’ Moshe’s refrigerator teshuva that you don’t agree that he was mattir a d’oraiso for a specific tzorech gadol, but I certainly agree that he would not be mattir bishul just because you need a cholent for Shabbos.
Hello99,
Sorry, I’ll respond to your post out of order (I missed it).
I think that the most straightforward understanding of case the R’ma in 253 is dealing with is that there is no other hot food (not the way you misunderstood me earlier that there’s no other food at all).
Also, in 325, he is only mattir items for tzorech Shabbos to be carried through a carmelis, not a r’shus harabim. Why not?
Also, in D”M, he is clearly talking about a tzorech Shabbos (again, see M”B that the definition is something which would be somewhat difficult to do without) and is only mattir if he did it for himself (or it was still warm).
The weight of evidence is clearly that even the R’ma would not be mattir.
I don’t think one would be required to protest if someone had the R’ma to rely on. (Although in this case, it actually wouldn’t make a difference, because it was also bishul aku”m, and, ironically that would probably make it amira l”akum as well even if the R’ma would otherwise be mattir, since there’s no tzorech to have him cook food that is assur to eat! 🙂
This has nothing to do with saying a Tzorech Godol wouldn’t push off this Issur of cooking by Ameira L’acum.
Your distinction between a tzorech gadol which occurs occasionally or only rarely makes no sense, and the entire 253:5 – R’ma, M”B, B”H, M”A, PM”G (including his quoting the D”M) is clear that even reheating is assur in some cases, and certainly full fledged bishul would be. I brought the M”B in 225 not as a raya, but as a possible explanation for why even the R’ma would asser by bishul.
You claim that the Debriciner in B’er Moshe is mattir amira l’akum l’tzorech gadol – please provide a source.
More importantly, provide a source for ANYONE who is mattir asking a nochri to cook, other than for a choleh.
You can look through all of the contemporary seforim on amira l’akum (they discuss the shailos in a more clear way) and you’ll find that none will be mattir, again, except for a choleh.
And as to your accusations that I and hello99 are either out to asser or to argue with you, I will point out that you negius is much stronger – you actually (it seems from your posts) were oiver on amira l’akum and bishul aku”m and are desperately trying to defend yourself.
I, on the other hand, and probably hello99 as well, came to the conclusion that it would be assur to ask a nochri to do melacha d’oraiso, even for the only available cholent, well before this topic ever came up in the coffee room.
Hello99:
But Reb Moshe wasn’t Matir!!!
??? ???? ??????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ??
????? ????? ?”? ????,?????? ???? ?? ?? ????
??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ??????
?????, ?????? ???”? ??’ ??”? ???? ?’ ???????
???? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ???’ ?????? ?????.
A little more explanation, please?
We are more machmir on amira l’akum in the case of food than other types of hanaah. Unlike what you wrote, “There is no difference between one D’oraysa and another, no matter what you say. Sitting in a lit room is having Hanaah!”.
He wouldn’t be mattir it just to absolve having to protest. As you might say, that’s a weak diyuk to make a stira between what R’ Moshe writes and what he intends.
But he does NOT mention any problem with cooking when there is a Tzorech Gadol
In 325: 10, he is only mattir carrying in a carmelis, not a reshus harabbim, although that is the classic tzorech gadol (equivilent to our case).
If you want to make the case that not having cholent or sheichar or “shaar devorim” does not meet the R’ma’s criteria for tzorech gadol to be mattir a d’oraisa, (in other words there are two levels of tzorech gadol) I could hear, but R’ Moshe doesn’t seem to hold that way.
MSS,
Your contention that privately putting up money is humiliating, but announcing to the world that this girl was only able to get a date and get married because the shadchan was offered extra money, is ridiculous.
If a girl chooses to reveal that information, that’s fine, but the fact that you want this information to be publicized even against her will seems to show an extreme lack of sensitivity on your part.
mordern: Are we going to start a weight charge
How would that help solve the age gap issue?
Which is precisely why the NASI initiative helps the girls who aren’t rich more than the ones who are.
You have a problem of differentiating unavoidable and unavoidable that happens all the time.
That’s true, there should be no difference, but either way, you seem to have missed the word “occasionally (lif’omim)” which means it doesn’t happen all the time.
Could you clarify this paragraph -I don’t understand your point.
I’ll try: The M”B says that there is more reason to be machmir on hanaah from food, because one has a strong desire for it, than from other types of hanaah.
Who says there is no other fire available? And who says this was the main dish and there would be no main dish? In other words, again you are assuming this to be a case of Tzorech Godol -who says?
It’s not 100%, you’re right, but in most cases, the fire going out means no cholent.
Is NASI willing to be totally transparent to the Shadchanim and investors, offering names and dates of successful Shidduchim?
Wouldn’t that be an infringement on their privacy?
Earlier, you wrote, “Good, smart, fine, accomplished older girls having to put out big big big bucks to get Shadchanim’s attention, is humiliating to the older girls.”, and now you want the names of those who put up the money to be “totally transparent”?
uneeq,
There’s a teshuva from R’ Moshe as well (I posted earlier) and in the sefer ????? ?????, he uses the R’ma (alomg with other heterim) to allow asking the police to detain a recalcitrant husband who might otherwise leave his wife an agunah.
It’s not completely nidcheh in halacha, you just need to know where to apply it.
It doesn’t apply here, though – all of the seforim who talk about such a case asser.
the Rema in 253 doesn not make any mention of lack of other food or other Tzorech Gadol.
Lack of any other hot food is tzorech gadol, that was actually Health’s case on which this discussion began.
Now I’ll answer your other question:
one opinion that food is more chamur. how do you know the Rema follows this opinion?
I don’t know it as a fact, I’m suggesting a reason that the R’ma does not allow cooking even l’tzorech gadol. If you have a better reason, kol hakavod, but clearly he assers it.
Please read my earlier post as well, which was not yet visible when you posted.
Ouch. Thats a sad commentary on your view of truth and commitment in our community. Possibly undeserved.
No, I actually think most people would follow through, but the minority who wouldn’t would destroy the whole program.
(Barf, the third time)
I hope you feel better now.
I still say the Gedolei Hador should immediately issue a kol koray that ALL professionally paid shadchanim have a chiyuv to make at least 5 successful shidduchim per year pro bono for “hard to make” shidduchim (older singles, physically or medically challenged, BT, Geirim, etc, or any combination thereof).
Do you really want the gedolei hador to start making mandatory takanos?
Additionally, the rabbonim should declare that every shidduch made l’sheim mitzvah gets a sachar in olam haba,
Done already, as I think you already know.
whereas evey shidduch made for business purposes gets no more sachar than does working at ANY occupation for a living.
Do you really want them to lie?
You are painting peoples actions and motivations with only black and white brushes, but they’re more complicated than that. People do things for multiple reasons, and receive schar according to the level of “l’shem shomayim”. It’s not all or none.
Hello99,
I would appreciate your feedback as well, on my previous post to Health.
I think the chiluk between food/bishul and light/havara would also explain why tosefes hanaah would be assur for the former (MB”D to mevushal kol tzorcho, or tzonen to cham) although muttar for the latter ( extra light – we discussed this earlier).
DY – Even though this is addressed to hello99 & I’m not 100% sure what you are talking about -let me take a crack at it.
Of course; this is an open forum and anyone can interject (and especially since you’re heavily involved in the discussion).
Again this was done as a L’chatchilla, not as a B’dieved!
I don’t think it was arranged like this for any other reason other than the fact that the oven cooling was sometimes unavoidable.
See Darchei Moshe 253:7 (same R’ma) who quotes the Ohr Zarua who saw in his rebbe’s home that they were mattir reheating the cholent which occasionally cooled, only because it hadn’t entirely cooled or because they (the servants) did it for themselves. (It would seem that this is the basis of the R’ma in S.A.)
See M”A (38) who quotes this D”M, and PRM”G (E”A) who comments on this and is further lenient, but stipulates that it must be a shvus d’shvus, and is muttar because shvus d’shvus is muttar l’tzorech Shabbos. Those familiar with the halachos of amira l’aku”m know that shvus d’shvus is not muttar for a snack, or to rely on l’chatchila where avoidable, only when unavoidable and for an essential Shabbos food.
It is this PRM”G which the Biur Halacha which I quoted earlier refers to – clearly, this “tzorech Shabbos” is a form of tzorech gadol. See also M”B 325:62 for the definition of tzorech Shabbos.
There is no difference between one D’oraysa and another, no matter what you say. Sitting in a lit room is having Hanaah!
I believe there is, and you haven’t addressed the chiluk between food and other types of hanaah, which the M”B (325 – 16) makes regarding hanaah from a melacha which a nochri did for himself. Even if we are mattir there, the sevara is still valid, and would account for amira being assur for bishul even where it would be assur for light.
I quoted the IG”M earlier as being mattir a nochri removing the bulb from a refrigerator so that a Jew can later remove the essential Shabbos foods. It is interesting to note that in O”C 4:74-40, he explicitly assers telling a nochri to relight the fire which went out under the pot (clearly not a l’chatchila arrangement, and most likely no other fire available) unless it’s bein hashmashos.
MSS,
I have an idea. Why don’t you start a similar program to NASI’s, with yours working on an honor system, and let’s see which one works better.
abcd2,
Your lack of consideration for teachers’ much needed and deserved Sundays off is inconsistent with your obvious respect for them.
Hello99,
I don’t think it’s much of an extrapolation or dochek. The R’ma clearly assers the food b’dieved if it was heated after having cooled, although it’s pretty clear to me that you’ll be stuck without (hot) food.
I think these halachos (chazara, bishul) are more chamur than the case of the Itur. Besides the sevara that we must be more machmir for food, your being neheneh directly from his maaseh (the food itself was cooked by him) which might be worse than using the lamp he turned on.
What is your alternative? That the R’ma would allow full-fledged bishul al y’dei aku”m when you have no other cholent, but asser food even b’dieved when it was reheated after being nitztanein?
is dass yochid paid by ywn to stimulate conversation at the cr?
Halevai!
If you don’t mind, can you please click the “contact us” button and make that suggestion?
Is rust a problem for a mikva?
That depends if there’s substance to it, in which case it must be sanded off. If it’s merely a stain, it’s okay.
remember teachers get out early on fridays have off all chol hamoed and erev yom tov with out issue
I think you are taking teachers for granted.
Look in the case of the Rema of Tzorech Godol -“like a Chasuna or Mila Seudah”.
Yes, to turn on the lights, not to cook.
You’ll never find anyone being matir cooking al y’dei aku”m for any tzorech other than a choleh.
Definitely. No one is denying it. BUT further victimizing the victims, is NOT the Torah way.
That’s your choice to call it victimizing, but the way I see it, paying more for a more difficult, time consuming job is not being victimized.
MSS,
I’m not clear on your post. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with my opinion that redting a shidduch with an older girl is more difficult than with a younger one?
DY
You mean there’s more than one?
There’s one for every older single. Larger than a breadbox.
I thik that we should move all siddur and chumash parties, as well as nursery and kindergarten graduations, to 8:30 PM.
To be fair, the OP also suggested Sunday.
I received an invitation to a grandchilds Siddur play
First of all, mazel tov! May he/she continue to grow in avodas Hashem.
I think you’re being too harsh when you call this a lack of mentchlichkeit. Not everyone considers attendance at a siddur play as important as you do. Your difference of opinion with the school is probably in this regard, not that they think you should take off from work in order to attend.
You can certainly call the school and share your concerns, and if enough parents and grandparents do so, they might reconsider.
You must have misstyped the Mareh Makom.
Indeed. Sorry; it’s in 325.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14171&st=&pgnum=316
Yes, I am manmade.
Are you the shidduch crises?
Human nature.
A good shadchan does a lot more than just present a name.
Hmmm… I don’t think so, unless someone acts as a central hub for that, such as NASI is doing for the older girls. (I think I’ve just answered your first question as well).
who will wait now till their 21 if it will cost them more this will just increase the problem.
No one’s intentionally waiting in any case (unless they are anyhow not ready).
Hello99,
We can start with M”B 326:16 that food is worse.
We still have to differentiate between this and the case of the refrigerator in IG”M, but that’s merely gaining access, not preparing it and making it edible.
Health,
The oven did not cool -it’s Klor from the MB -95 –
I’m not talking about that case. I’ll quote the R’ma which I am referring to:
??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ?? ??????? ???????? ???
???????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??”? ?? ??????? ?????? ???????
Whatever they had, they didn’t have more than one and the flame was still on.
No, it had cooled, which is why the servants moved the pots to the heating oven and lit it.
“The Biur Halacha doesn’t stop at the words “tzorech Shabbos”, he also says “v’ain lo eitzah acheres”.”
You put in words that it doesn’t say, neither in the Rema or the B’H
I put in no words that weren’t there, as I said, the context is clearly not your imagined case.
DY -“Do you care to explain why you don’t think it’s a diyuk (which, as I explained, is the simple p’shat, in context)?”
I did already and I’ll quote from above:
“And how do you know what the “the” is refering to? Maybe it’s left over pots from Fri. nite & he’s hungry?”
I posted that before your post was visible.
Sorry, I missed this earlier:
DY: how do you understand the Rema 276?
He’s not referring to bishul.