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PAA,
Thanks, I posted before yours was on the board.
And you’re correct, I didn’t mean to answer according to the OP’s assumption.
Here’s the Ramba”m,
? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????, ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????. ????? ?????? ???? ??????, ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??????, ?????? ???? ??–??? ???? ???? ?????, ?????? ?? ??????? ?? ?? ?????. ?? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??, ??? ??????–???? ??????; ??? ????? ??????, ???.
Not an exact quote, true, it says zacha, not zoche. That’s not a paraphrase, it’s a misspelling.
That phrase is referring to a moser, and since I am maintaining that someone who calls the police to have them shut off someone’s car alarm is not a moser, it doesn’t apply here.
Please find me the Ramba”m which says that calling the cops for a car alarm is mesirah.
Boy, tough crowd.
is Dy really PM?
No
PAA,
I don’t think he’s a moser, certainly not a vaday (certain).
(If he’s a safek moser, he’d be patur aval assur ?.)
I have a MOreh Heter.
I also had a Morah Heather. She was Morah Leah’s assistant. ?
What klach said is a paraphrase of the Rambam’s endorsement of killing a moiser. It means “whoever kills him first gets the merit”.
I believe it’s an exact quote. I do not believe that it applies here.
I can’t cite sources, but AFAIK mesirah applies even if the party is guilty. However, it is sometimes muttar (obviously, AYLOR) when beis din is not an option. This might be such a case.
I don’t think they give tickets for car alarms (although they might technically be able to, I don’t know for sure).
I also can’t imagine (again, sorry, no source) that one can’t do teshuva on this.
Wolf, you are usually an advocate of AYLOR; could you please let us know what he says?
i dont mean you. sorry for implying that just responding to mods post.
No problem. I was only half serious; I wasn’t sure if you meant me.
you are not jopseph as far as im concerned (or are you?!?!?!)
Now you’re accusing me? ? (This time, 100% not serious.)
Wow, this is the second time this week I’ve been accused of being Joseph!
According to a friend of his that I spoke with, he uses AZ because he knows everything from A to Z.
They are the initials of a significant person in his life.
Everyones shidduch was created 40 days before yitziras havlad.
What’s your point with that? Are you saying that nobody ever died without getting married?
BTW, the source of that is Sotah 2a. See Tos’ there.
Aries,
I didn’t twist your words – I know that you think it’s the right thing to pay. You also think though, that there is no “going rate” and there is no specific minimum amount without prior agreement, and on this you are wrong. If you think, as does Wolfish Musings, that it is wise to make clear the financial expectations in advance, I can understand that (although, as I stated, I also understand why shadchanim are uncomfortable doing so).
However, if someone did not do so, the parents are still obligated according to halacha (not “merely” yashrus) to pay according to the going rate (albeit the lower end of the normal range).
I’m sorry if you think I twisted your words.
The inyan isn’t to appear to do something assur that others will think ill of you
See Rashi on Shabbos 146b who seems to think otherwise (both inyanim are true).
Aries,
It’s a nice theory, but according to halacha, they are obligated to pay, just like a worker or borrower need to be paid. This was discussed earlier in the thread (no I’m not c”v accusing you of disregarding halacha, I think you just don’t know – so don’t go opening another halache thread! ?).
Aries,
But the onus is NOT on you to collect. That is out of your hands. The ONUS is up to them to pay.
Why do you feel that way? Would you say the same thing if it was a different type of debt, such as a loan, or compensation for a worker?
apushatayid,
If you feel so strongly that you were wronged, take them to beis din. Otherwise, forget about it.
I would think that beis din would be a last resort. She should first try to work it out with them.
I think we need to focus first on having inner tznius. Meaning- How to be gentle, dignified, respectful, sensitive, etc. Not to be loud, brash, and arrogant. Once we can attain that, outer tznius will be automatic. I don’t think making a foundation focusing only on outer tznius will work.
I agree almost completely with your statement. The one word I would change is “first”, to “also”, because hachitzoniyus m’orer es hap’nimiyus.
If anyone wants an idea for making an invention, someone ought to invent a little gadget like a gps, that sits somewhere in your car, and when it is alerted to the fact you’ve shut off the motor and are preparing to exit the vehicle, it makes a loud announcement “CHECK YOUR CAR SEAT FOR ANY CHILDREN”. as a reminder.
ARWSF – Check the post immediately before yours.
r-b,
I’m not sure you’re gonna like the new one…
Use the name real brisker and see if they call you Joseph.
This is my LAST request to have my SubTitle changed back. And If not I’M OUTTA HERE!
Just open a new account.
I think CSO Radio in Lakewood sells such a device.
1-877-987-8877 – [email protected].
Health,
I just saw how this thread digressed to discuss stealing from the government. It seems you think it’s okay. Have I misunderstood? I hope you’re kidding here, but if not, please speak to a posek about it, who will straighten you out on this one.
MiddlePath,
First of all, you’re to be commended for your last comments.
Second, I used the example of a real estate broker because, similar to the bas kol of “bas ploni l’ploni”, there is also a bas kol of “bayis ploni l’ploni”.
And yes, a shadchan is Hashem’s shaliach (yes, that made sense), but that has no bearing on the compensation he deserves.
Still alot for just a bris
Just a bris??!!
brotherofurs,
You should tell them that you already prayed. If you don’t want to, you don’t have to tell them why.
There’s no maris ayin to walk into shul late, although there might be, as dz said, an inyan of v’hiyisem n’kiyim to explain. But you could just explain that you were detained for a good reason without saying what it was.
The main disadvantage of the Canadian system, as applied to the US, would be massive unemployment among the paper-pushers at private insurance companies. But we would be spending much less for health care and likely get better outcomes.
I guess you’re one of those who wouldn’t mind.?
Who goes by Rabbeinu Tam’s shkia today?
Many, if not most, Chassidim, although the minhag in the US is for everyone to be machmir for the first shkia with regard to doing melacha on Shabbos or Yom Tov.
And how can a shul have a mincha and maariv minyan running simultaneously?
It’s easier if there are two rooms. ?
MiddlePath,
You shouldn’t pay you real estate broker either, since your house is also destined for you. Maybe you shouldn’t pay your gardener, since there’s a malach telling every blade of grass to grow.
I think you’ve also insulted shadchanim and denigrated the hard work they do.
gaw and miritchka,
It seems to be a halacha in (S.A. C”M 332 – 1) that we go according to the lower prevailing price. But wedo not exempt entirely for lack of prior arrangement (as miritchka implied), or go according to an unusual circumstance (as gaw implied – see 332 , end of R’ma).
How do you refer to your parents and to your in-laws when speaking to your spouse?
That question would be a great one to ask the shevatim.?
Otherwise: my mother, your mother, my father, your father.
Or: my mother-in-law, your mother-in-law, my father-in-law, your father-in-law (the first one’s easier).
if parents decide for whatever reason that public school is the best option, why must they be made to feel guilty about it?
Because they are messing up their kids’ neshamos for selfish reasons.
Please look at Reb Akiva Eiger C.M. 185; Pischei Teshuvah E.H. 50:16– rejecting the mistaken notion that a shadchan must always be paid.
For OC’s benefit, I’ll summarize:
If the shadchan initially stipulated that it was being done for free, he can’t later demand payment.
You didn’t say you were doing it for free, OC, did you? 😉
you are considering it a business and not as a mitzvah
There’s no reason that it can’t be both.
Simply lying to my wife where I’ve been so that I can weasel out of some housework and maintain shalom with my wife, is lying, not maintaining shalom.
Since you had the option to do the housework, you didn’t lie for shalom, you lied to get out of housework.
The fallacy with lying to your wife to maintain shalom, such as in pba’s case, is that sheker ein lo raglayim, and ultimately, when she finds out, not only will she be upset at what you did, she’ll be even more upset that you lied to her. The best way to maintain shalom (besides not getting involved in these bad activities to begin with) would be to own up, and ask her to help you get the help you need.
BH in my community I don’t see it
Neither do I, and I highly doubt anyone does. And that’s the bottom line for this discussion (I agree not to rehash our related discussions from the past ?).
jewish and working 22,
You are simply ignoring the fact that there are halachos about this.
Most, if not all, yeshivas and Beis Yaakov’s will give substantial deductions when necessary.
It is unheard of for a child to be forced into public school because of genuine inability to pay.
See ??”? ?”? ??? ?’ ??’ ?”?.
By s’chirus, you either have prior agreement, or the original Ratzon of the Socher to pay. Here, it seems that is not the case.
The parents are not claiming that they thought it was a free shadchanus.
Besides, even when family friends make a shidduch just as a chessed (which doesn’t seem to be the case here), shadchanus is expected, albeit maybe on a different scale.
I don’t get any of this.
What’s not to get? These are not ehrliche people!
You, who are ehrlich, would of course treat he shadchan with the proper kavod!
As a mother was heard yelling at her child:
I have two words for you – Be Have!
There are literally tears in my eyes from reading about parents willing to sacrifice their children for money. I usually have a logical response to a viewpoint which I don’t agree with, but I am at a loss here.
How someone could even think of comparing an early childhood experience among warm, Yiddishe moros and rebbeim to secular teachers (as nice as they may be) is beyond me – I guess my sense of Yiddishe values is just very different than theirs.
There’s a community (in the NY area) of immigrants who came from a country with little Jewish education. The rabbonim in that community are tearing their hair out because many otherwise shomrei mitzvos don’t understand the value of sending their children to yeshiva and Bais Yaakov. The public schools are free, (and in that neighborhood are high quality) so they spend their money on fancy houses, cars and vacations instead of investing it in their children.
The older children are already intermarrying, and the younger ones are sadly on the way.
Yes, Tov li Toras picha mei’alfei zahav vakesef… not just a song – a way of life.
y.p.,
Went to the “right” yeshivos, a masmid, a lamdan, self confident, good midos, from a chashuva mishpacha. Pretty much in that order.
haifagirl,
We can always count on you for grammatical accuracy.
BTW, it’s not just ???; as was pointed out, so is ?? ????. Also, we have ???? ??, we have ???? ????, and ????? ????? ?? (the OP did mention the entire ???”?). The ????? which are ???? ???? also are in second person (e.g. ???? ????).
Come to think of it, the phrase ???? ??? is interesting.
There is a “small” change to medicare, half a trilion dollars riped out
They won’t need the money, since they plan on having fewer old people around.
I read in the news that a Goy who is 51 just got married to a 16 y.o. girl.
There’s a reason it was in the news. ?
,em>Can one assume a chumra for oneself if he feels it will help enhance his Torah observance?
Yes. If it will lead to yuhara, then by definition, it’s not an enhancement of his Torah observance.
Eruvim is a tractate in the Oral Law.
Absolutely. I meant most contemporary eruvin.
And the overwhelming majority of poskim permit a public eruv under at least some circumstances.
If you mean contemporary eruvin, I agree, but that doesn’t mean it’s not a kula. There is legitimate place for utilizing a kula under some circumstances.
I agree with real-joseph. (Sorry, r-b 😉
72 – bold is as follows:
<strong>I'm already retired so I'd give it all to DaasYochid!</strong>results in:
I’m rich!
(actually,
I’m alredy retired so I’d give it all to DaasYochid!)
I *really* find it hard to believe that you think that there is something wrong with specifying fees for services up front.
Nothing wrong, just uncomfortable when it involves shidduchim.
Is there a prevailing norm on either that is firmly established? I’m not so certain that there is.
There’s probably a range, and a beis din can probably only enforce the lower end of the range (as long as it’s not very atypical).
As far as time of payment, Baal Boose might be right, and if there’s no firmly established minhag, they parents can probably choose the later date, but I’m sure there’s no later date expected
than the marriage.
Are there different shittas as to when shkia is?
No. Anyone can look at the horizon and see when the sun sets.
That’s if you go according to the Gaonim, who consider “shkiah” the setting of the actual sphere of the sun.
Rabbeinu Tam, however, considers “shkiah” to be when the last rays of the sun “set” (also called “shkiah shniyah”).
Since many follow R”T’s shittah (some Chassidim), one shul can be davening Mincha while another is davening Ma’ariv.
There is no teshuva which doesn’t help. True, the more teshuva a person does, the better off he is, but even a little bit helps a lot.