Forum Replies Created
ujm – The Rambam and Rashbam argue on the Ran over there, Chasam Sofer in Teshuvos choshen mishpat 44 also limits the Ran as well to taxes imposed by the king for his personal needs as opposed to things imposed for public welfare which even the Ran would agree to.
Avira dearah do you have a mareh makom where Rav Kanievsky writes what you claim??
One of the 7 mitzvos pf Bnei Noach is to set up courts and laws, no matter what you think of the government in israel why would their courts be worse than at least other bnei noach??
Anywhere there are heads of mosdos turning away jewish children from jewish schools for the sake of personal profit.
Unless you insist on continuing to hold your hands tight over your eyes it is crystal clear from the actions of putin in his own country (even without looking at his actions to his neighbors) the last decade that he is a mad tyrant and the biggest threat in the world today to become hitler 2.0.
After ww2 anyone who suggests that tyrants should be left alone and allowed to continue growing stronger in peace is simply fooling themselves and kicking the barrel down the road.
if there’s one lesson that was learned from ww2 it is that tyrants need to be cut off asap.
For the record it is Russia who intervened in 1967 and prevented Israel from completely winning the war and chase away all the Arabs. It is thanks to Russia that the arabs remain in Israel and cause all the trouble they cause until today.
It is Russia who is the main obstacle today in allowing Israel freedom to act against their agressors, if one thinks about it it is Russia who is the main obstacle today that prevents Israel from removing the mosque and building a Beis Hamikdash.
These are historical facts as recorded here
no outside links
Akuperma and midwesterner –
Avigdor Lieberman is a sly opportunist who changes ideologies as per the political climate at times a friend of the charedim and at times not, in order to stay in power, check the history of his positions.
Yair lapid has no hatred or interest in interfering with the lifestyle of observant Jews rather he is advocating for the interest of the less observant general public.
The enablers of both of them are the Likud and the charedim who will not let go of their idol Netanyahu and no matter what insist they must stick to him to the bitter end and beyond.
It is a clear fact that the moment Netanyahu steps a purely right wing jewish government can immediately be formed with around 70 members of knesset.
One of the biggest lies in the world today is that the religious zionist faction of the government is making anti religious decrees anyone who checks the facts can see that none of Matan Kahane’s laws are violating any halacha rather quite the opposite.
Most of the reforms of Matan Kahane is fulfilling the command of the Navi Hater Charzuvos Resha! Long overdue!
The only place the zionists you describe still exist is in your head and the head of people like you still harboring hatred to an ancient and mostly extinct movement.
In todays Tel Aviv there is almost noone who has any interest whatsoever in imposing work on shabbos on anyone who wishes to observe shabbos. There is mass ignorance and that’s it, the majority of Jews in Israel observe shaboss and other yomim tovim in some way or another.
Why spread baseless hatred?
How does your “Science” explain the fact that New Zealand has only 53 Covid deaths to date???
Hopefully you will come back to your senses and will admit the mistakes of these past 2 years so you don’t repeat them and lead to more unnecessary and avoidable deaths chas veshalom.December 30, 2021 8:33 am at 8:33 am in reply to: The world should take action on Israel’s treatment of charedim #2046438
Which “treatment” are you referring to the free tuition, health insurance, monthy kollel checks, or maybe the free plots of land for shuls and yeshivos?
In New Zealand people wear masks and keep social distancing when necessary and they have 40 dead to date.
While the protection of masks to the mask wearer is disputed, the fact that masks prevent the spreading of the disease is undisputed and proven by the numbers.
Masks and social distancing are the only measures proven to work.
It is sad and tragic that so many have died bec. of refusal of people to wear masks.
I don’t know of any frum yid that disagrees with the fact that the Neshama is a creation despite their understanding of the word mamash in the Tanya and / or the word gamur in the Nefesh Hachaim.
As stated above once all agree on the basic principles of אין עוד מלבדו and Hashems Oneness as explained by the Rambam, Chovos Halevavos, Tanya and the Nefesh Hachaim any other differences are what chazal call משמעות דורשין איכא בינייהו.
Perhaps a much more important topic for discussion in the frum world is the fact that in the past months in Israel around 23 people have been dying a day from Covid (about a third of them fully vaccinated) who would have otherwise seemingly been alive if not for the adamant refusal of people especially orthodox and ultra orthodox to wear masks in closed spaces as instructed by the health ministry (while the protection to the mask wearer is disputed, the protection to the people around the mask wearer is almost undisputed). Especially after the vaccine roll out this unfortunate behavior seems to have almost complete rabbinic support across the entire spectrum of orthodox Judaism.
What happened to לא תעמוד על דם רעך?
What happened to לא תרצח?
What happened to כל המציל נפש אחת בישראל…?
What happened to חמירא סכנתא מאיסורא?
Are all the above mere empty slogans?
How come when it comes to איסור most charedim will not touch a Rabanut Hechsher with a ten foot pole but when it comes to סכנה which is much more חמור than איסור the charedim are more secular than the secular???????
A young grandson of the head of the beis din in Yerushalayim (“העדה החרדית”) passed away from covid this week, can the dayanim on that beis din bring an עגלה ערופה and say ידינו לא שפכו את הדם הזה???
Can anyone imagine the Kiddush Hashem it would have caused around the world had the charedim shown with their behavior this past year that all the above commandments and principles are not just empty statements that are ignored when they need to be acted upon????
Is it not an immeasurable tragedy that instead of being a light unto the nations and leaders of the world when it came to value for life as we were commanded to, the vast majority of “frum” communities around the world showed regarding covid that just the opposite is how we act????
The problem today of “Torah-observant Jews” who are “unwitting murderers” is far greater than the problem of “Torah-observant Jews” who you think might be “unwitting heretics”.
The Baal Hatanya did not only “not make up the idea of the neshama being a חלק א-לוק ממעל out of nowhere” rather it is a well established fundamental idea before and after the Baal Hatanya with sources before and after Lubavitch.
The Nefesh Hachaim also uses the word גמור in his statement “מבחי’ הנשמה דלהון ולמעלה הוא אלקות גמור”, the meaning of כביכול is also not as simple as you suggested.
One thing is absolutely clear and unanimously stated by all the sources here; as much as it is a creation, the Neshama is a unique creation sourced much higher than all other creations, this is the point of the Baal Hatanya and the Nefesh Hachaim here.
As the Chovos Halevavos writes, only a fool spends his time trying to understand the essence of HKBH, when you finish (כביכול) explaining the essence of HKBH you can expect to understand exactly how mamash or not mamash, gamur or not gamur the Chelek Eloka Mimaal is.
The main “equivalence” intended in my last question was that as stated here above, in the context of a proper understanding of אין עוד מלבדו and the true meaning of Hashem’s Oneness your “questions” are just as much of a “Klotz” question as that question is, certainly not grounds to call into question the legitimacy of the Baal Hatanya or those inspired by him and suggest that there is any problem with their אמונה.
As stated above, when it comes to the actions and behavior of people which is what really matters at the end of the day, the damage of people who underestimate the power of this idea is far greater than those who you think may have gone “overboard” with this idea.
As I stated in my posts above, there are plenty of additional sources for the idea of the Tanya from sources not known to be affiliated with Lubavitch.
There is the statement quoted by many in the name of the Zohar ; מאן דנפח מדיליה נפח.
The Nefesh Hachaim in שער א פרק ה and פרק טו explains the Neshama pretty close if not the same as the Tanya.
I remember Rav avigdor Miller as well using the idea of Chelek Eloka Momaal to explain the words of the Chovos Halevavos who says in his Hakdama that והשכל הניצל מכל פגע is one of the three possible sources for dinim that are דאורייתא! The Gemara says למה לי קרא סברא הוא and Rav Miller’s explanation is this idea of the Chovos Halevavos that as Chelek Eloka Mimaal the סברא of an “undamaged mind” has the status of דאורייתא!
Your statement above “It is much more dangerous to blur the line between G-d and man than to over-emphasize the gap between us and Hashem, even if that is also a mistake.” is a fatal error and quite the contrary is the case.
It is the idea of Chelek Eloka Mimaal that has the power to inspire people (who view themselves and others as Chelek Eloka Mimaal) to emulate Hashem and seek to bestow kindness on others like Avaraham Avinu, to “over-emphasize the gap between us and Hashem” especially when it is “a mistake” as you suggest, is what leads people to lose all sense of humanity and sink to the level of animals in their own behavior and especially in their behavior towards others.
I don’t think anyone has ever gone off the derech by getting “carried away” with the idea of Chelek Eloka Mimaal (aside for Pharaoh and a few others) while an unfortunate amount of people have sunk to unthinkable levels of inhumanity due to the idea being neglected.
Philosophically the “fallacy” and “absurdity” (as well put by Yechi above) of your questions are well exposed in my posts above, after a basic understanding of אין עוד מלבדו, as explained by others in addition to the Tanya, you’re questions are all what is known in the Beis Medrash as a “Klotz Kasha”.
Your questions are like a question I once heard from a Lomdishe rebbe of mine who asked, why is it muttar to daven while wearing Tefillin if it is assur to be מסיח דעת from ones Tefiliin?
I will leave off with one more question for you, it says שמע ישראל ה’ אלו’ ה’ אחד how can there be Hashem and Elokim if “G-d cannot be divided into parts.”??
Not sure how you understood me to be saying “the Tanya said so, so it must be true”.
There are three honest ways to address the words of the Tanya (or anyone else):
1. He means what he says.
2. There is a typo and he never said it.
3. I disagree with him.
To say there is no typo but he he doesn’t mean it literally when he specifically says “Mamash” is dishonest interpretation and distortion of what was written.
If you are coming to say you disagree with the Tanya that is your issue and between you and the Tanya.
Once again this has zero to do with Chasidim vs anyone else, this is about honest interpretation of words written by a Torah Scholar.
Here are the words of the Nefesh Hachaim Shaar 1 Perek 15 regarding the Neshama seemingly also referring to at least part of the Neshama as “אלקות גמור” :
אמנם בחינת הנשמה. היא הנשימה עצמה שפנימיות עצמותה מסתתרת בהעלם ומקורה ברוך כביכול בתוך נשימת פיו ית”ש. שאין עצמות מהותה נכנסת כלל בתוך גוף האדם ואדה”ר קודם החטא זכה לעצמותה ובסיבת החטא נסתלקה מתוכו ונשארה רק חופפת עליו. לבד משרע”ה שזכה לעצמותה תוך גופו ולכן נקרא איש האלקים כידוע שכל ג’ עולמות בי”ע. מבחי’ הנשמה דלהון ולמעלה הוא אלקות גמור. כמ”ש בע”ח שער הצלם פ”א. ובריש שער ציור. עולמות אבי”ע. בהקדמת הרח”ו ז”ל. ובשער השמות פ”א. וזולתו לא זכה אליה שום אדם. רק בהירות נצוצי אור מתנוצצים ממנה על ראש האדם הזוכה אליה. כל אחד לפי מדרגתו ולפום שיעורא דילי’. וע’ רע”מ נשא קכ”ג ב’ ויפח באפיו נשמת חיים דא איהי דיוקנא דעל ב”נ כו’. ובז”ח רות ס”ד ע”ג ואי זכי כו’ כדין נחתא עלי’ רבו יתיר מלעילא כו’. אתער עלי’ מלעילא אתערו קדישא ושרי’ עלי’ דב”נ וסחרא לי’ מכל סטרין. וההוא אתערו דשריא עלי’ מאתר עלאה הוא ומאי שמי’ נשמה שמיה ע”ש. והיא הנותנת להאדם בינה יתירה להשכיל השכליות הפנימים הגנוזים בתוה”ק. וכמ”ש בס”ת לך לך (ח”א עט, ב) נשמה אתערת לאינש בבינה ובז”ח (רות ס”ד א’) ואתער בי’ בחכמתא עלאה כו’. ועיין בע”ח שער מוחין דקטנות פ”ג ז”ל אמנם לא כל אדם זוכה לזה. ודע כי מי שיש בידו כח במעשיו כו’ אז יהיה לו זכירה נפלאה בתורה ויבין כל רזי התורה כו’ ויתגלו לו רזי התורה כתקונן ע”כ. ועיין להלן הענין בשורשו העליון. ותבין:
I think the Tanya was well aware of ideas we are not allowed to believe and nevertheless wrote what he wrote including the word “Mamash”.
As explained here above, once the principles of אין עוד מלבדו and the true meaning of Hashems unity are clear the Tanya’s idea is very understandable.
If you feel you have more to add than what was described here to explain what חלק אלוק ממעל or the balloon mashal brought in the name of the Zohar means, you are more than welcome to do so.
Most important is to not even come across as undermining this powerful idea or it’s implications that inspire thousands of Jews, even during an attempt to further refine and clarify a more exact definition of the idea.
Correct, in לשון בני אדם or what you call day-to-day level the Neshama is a creation not a creator as it says in אלוקי נשמה. However, the point of the Tanya is that the Neshama is a different kind of creation than all other creations due to the fact that as opposed to all other creations, this creation has a part of the creator in it which means Hashem restricted / covered himself in this creation less than in others.
The explanation / mashal given is מאן דנפח מן דיליה נפח a balloon full of air and an empty bag are both creations of their creator but the balloon has a part of it that is part of the essence of it’s creator / one who blew the air into it as opposed to the empty bag which is totally separate from the one who created it.
Once we all agree that אין עוד מלבדו, “kefira” is hopefully now out of the question, the issue now is how to best describe / understand in לשון בני אדם the uniqueness and specialness of the Neshama as opposed to all other creations that the Tanya is teaching us.
I see no problem with the word “Mamash” being literal in the context of the fundamentals explained above.
I would say a lot of the discussion here on how exactly to describe the idea of the Tanya is what Chazal call משמעות דורשין איכא בינייהו.
More important than how to describe the exact “anatomy” of the idea of the Tanya are the repercussions of the idea, such as proper self esteem, proper view of other people, hopefulness, optimism, belief in Teshuva and more that result from this idea as explained by the Tanya throughout his Sefer.
It would be a big pity to miss out on the main point/s the Tanya is trying to help the reader achieve by getting stuck on the exact “anatomy” of the idea which either way you go as we explained, is not even remotely close to kefira.
You seem to have two questions on the statement of the Baal Hatanya:
1. How can something be a “part” of something which cannot be split into parts?
2. In אלוקי נשמה it says the neshomo is a creature, how can something be both a creator and a creature?
Your conclusion ; the Baal Hatanya cannot be understood literally.
My question on your conclusion; how can one say something was not meant to be taken literally when the author specifically writes “Mamash”?
My answer to your questions;
One can ask on the Tanya from the opposite direction;
How can he say that only the neshama is a chelek eloka mimaal when the Passuk of אין עוד מלבדו as explained by the Tanya himself as well as the Nefesh Hachaim and others, says there is no existence outside Hashem and ALL existence is inside Hashem, if so not only the neshama is a chelek eloka mimaal the entire universe and ALL existence is Hashem.
Here are the words of the Tanya:
)שער היחוד והאמונה פרק ו(: וז”ש “וַהֲ ׁשֵ בֹתָ אֶ ל לְ בָ בֶ ָך ּכִ י ה’ הּוא הָ אֱֹלהִ ים”, פירוש ששני שמות אלו הםאחד ממש… ואם כן ממילא תדע שבשמים ממעל ועל הארץ מתחת אין עוד,פירוש שגם הארץ החומרית שנראית יש גמור לעין כל, היא אַ יִן ואפס ממשלגבי הקדוש ברוך הוא… ולכן גם הארץ ומתחת לארץ הן אין ואפס ממשלגבי הקב”ה ואינן נקראות בשם כלל, אפילו בשם ‘עוד’ שהוא לשון טפל…אבל הקב”ה המהוה את הכל מאין ליש, הכל בטל במציאות אצלו כמו אורהשמש בשמש.
Here are the words of the Nefesh Hachaim:
)שער ג, סוף פרק ב-פרק ג(:…אבל אדון כל יתברך שמו, הוא מלא את כל העולמות והנבראים, ואינםחוצצים חלילה נגדו יתברך כלל באמת. ואין עוד מלבדו יתברך ממש שוםדבר כלל בכל העולמות, מהעליון שבעליונים עד התהום התחתון שבתהומותהארץ, עד שתוכל לומר שאין כאן שום נברא ועולם כלל, רק הכל מלא עצמותאחדותו הפשוט יתברך שמו. והוא ענין הכתוב “הֲ לֹוא אֶ ת הַ ּׁשָ מַ יִם וְאֶ ת הָ אָ רֶ ץאֲ נִי מָ לֵ א” )ירמיה כג, כד(, ויותר מפורש במשנה תורה “וְיָדַ עְ ּתָ הַ ּיֹום וַהֲ ׁשֵ בֹתָאֶ ל לְ בָ בֶ ָך ּכִ י ה’ הּוא הָ אֱֹלהִ ים ּבַ ּׁשָ מַ יִם מִ ּמַ עַ ל וְעַ ל הָ אָ רֶ ץ מִ ּתָ חַ ת אֵ ין עֹוד”)דברים ד, לט(, וכן “אַ ּתָ ה הָ רְ אֵ תָ לָ דַ עַ ת ּכִ י ה’ הּוא הָ אֱֹלהִ ים אֵ ין עֹוד מִ לְ בַ ּדֹו”)דברים ד, לה(… והוא ממש כמשמעו, שאין עוד מלבדו יתברך כלל, בשוםבחינה ונקודה פרטית שבכל העולמות, עליונים ותחתונים והבריות כולם,רק עצמות אחדותו הפשוט יתברך שמו לבד… שמצידו יתברך נחשבים כולםכאילו אינם במציאות כלל, גם עתה כקודם הבריאה.
In the words of Rav Avigdor Miller zt”l to the best of my recollection:
“The entire world exists in Hashems mind”.
This being the case, it is not the Neshama being chelek eloka mimaal mamash that is not to be taken literally rather quite the opposite is true, it is the body and the rest of creation NOT being chelek eloka mimaal that is not to be taken literally as the reality is אין עוד מלבדו there is NO other existence other than Hashem.
The same would apply for your second question as well, it is אתה בראתה and אתה יצרת which are “not to be taken literally” as all “creations” as explained by the Tanya and Nefesh Hachaim above are merely a figment of our imagination and a virtual reality created by Hashem (referred to by some as צמצום or הסתר) in order for us to have a realm in which we can fulfill our purpose in the world.
The idea of the Tanya about the Neshama being Chelek Eloka mimaal mamash is likewise that even within our world of צמצום or הסתר where Hashem restricted / constricted / covered himself for us, the Neshama is a part of us that is less restricted / covered etc.
Just as Hashem is above Time Matter and Space then so too the Chelek Eloka Mimaal / Godly particle / Godliness or whatever you would like to call it is above time matter and space. That being the case the question this post started with falls away and doesn’t start.
Hashem’s Oneness as explained in Shaar Hayichud of Chovos Halevovos has more to do with Unique / Unequalled / Unlike any other and means a lot more than just the numerical value of one which is obviously the case but largely irrelevant to something that is above time matter and space.
The question posed here that the idea of Chelek Eloka Mimaal implies a “splitting” of Hashem is simply an ignorant and foolish attempt to force physical dimensions on something which is not physical.
This discussion has nothing to do with Lubavitch or Kabbala, this discussion is simply the result of enormous ignorance about what Hashem’s Oneness means.
Tiawd, Learn Shaar Hayichud before you attack / attempt to cross out explicit words of a great sage like the Baal Hatanya.
There is nothing about the idea stated in the Baal Hatanya that contradicts the 13 Ikkarim.
Maybe you understand the difference between “godliness” and Hashem himself, I don’t.
A basic tenet of Christianity is total separation between us and Hashem to the point that an intermediary is necessary, insisting on this kind of separation is dangerously close to that.
Embassies around the world have the legal status of their home country does that mean that there are now “Two” of the given country?
Does Shabbos being מעין עולם הבא mean there are two Olam Habas?
Tiawd’s question is rooted in utter ignorance about the Oneness of Hashem.
One who learns and understands Shaar Hayichud of Chovos Halevavos can see that there is No contradiction whatsoever bet. the words of the Baal Hatanya and the Oneness of Hashem.
Your reckless claim that an explicit statement of the Baal Hatanya is “Kefira” is the main problem with your post.
The Tanya specifically adds the word “Mamash”!
To say someone who says Mamash does not mean it literally is simply absurd, dishonest and False.
Your first “proof” is actually the biggest proof to the contrary of your claim as the real meaning of אין עוד מלבדו as explained by the sources you quoted is that there is no real existence outside of Hashem.
Take a look at Sforno Bereishis 32:1 who also alludes to this idea.
The distance you are trying to create between yourself and Hashem is actually a lot closer to the “border” of Kefira (Christianity) than the idea you are questioning.
From the Tanya חלק א פרק ב:
וְנֶפֶשׁ הַשֵּׁנִית בְּיִשְׂרָאֵל הִיא חֵלֶק אֱלוֹהַּ מִמַּעַל מַמָּשׁ, כְּמוֹ שֶׁכָּתוּב1: “וַיִּפַּח בְּאַפָּיו נִשְׁמַת חַיִּים”, וְ”אַתָּה נָפַחְתָּ בִּי”2, וּכְמוֹ שֶׁכָּתוּב בַּזֹּהַר3: מַאן דִּנְפַח מִתּוֹכֵהּ נְפַח, פֵּרוּשׁ, מִתּוֹכִיּוּתוֹ וּמִפְּנִימִיּוּתוֹ, שֶׁתּוֹכִיּוּת וּפְנִימִיּוּת הַחַיּוּת שֶׁבָּאָדָם מוֹצִיא בִּנְפִיחָתוֹ בְּכֹחַ. כָּךְ עַל דֶּרֶךְ מָשָׁל נִשְׁמוֹת יִשְׂרָאֵל עָלוּ בְּמַחֲשָׁבָה, כְּדִכְתִיב: “בְּנִי בְּכוֹרִי יִשְׂרָאֵל”4, “בָּנִים אַתֶּם לַה’ אֱלֹהֵיכֶם”5. פֵּרוּשׁ, כְּמוֹ שֶׁהַבֵּן נִמְשָׁךְ מִמֹּחַ הָאָב, כָּךְ כִּבְיָכוֹל נִשְׁמַת כָּל אִישׁ יִשְׂרָאֵל נִמְשְׁכָה מִמַּחֲשַׁבְתּוֹ וְחָכְמָתוֹ יִתְבָּרַךְ, דְּאִיהוּ חַכִּים וְלָא בְּחָכְמָה יְדִיעָא6, אֶלָּא הוּא וְחָכְמָתוֹ אֶחָד וּכְמוֹ שֶׁכָּתַב הָרַמְבַּ”ם7,
הגהה: וְהוֹדוּ לוֹ חַכְמֵי הַקַּבָּלָה, כְּמוֹ שֶׁכָּתוּב בְּפַרְדֵּס מֵהָרַמַ”ק. וְגַם לְפִי קַבָּלַת הָאֲרִ”י זַ”ל יַצִּיבָא מִלְּתָא בְּסוֹד הִתְלַבְּשׁוּת אוֹר אֵין סוֹף בָּרוּךְ הוּא עַל יְדֵי צִמְצוּמִים רַבִּים בְּכֵלִים דְּחָכְמָה בִּינָה וָדַעַת דַּאֲצִילוּת; אַךְ לֹא לְמַעְלָה מֵהָאֲצִילוּת. וּכְמוֹ שֶׁנִּתְבָּאֵר בְּמָקוֹם אַחֵר, שֶׁאֵין סוֹף בָּרוּךְ הוּא מְרוֹמָם וּמִתְנַשֵּׂא רוֹמְמוֹת אֵין קֵץ לְמַעְלָה מַעְלָה מִמַּהוּת וּבְחִינַת חַבַּ”ד עַד שֶׁמַּהוּת וּבְחִינַת חַבַּ”ד נֶחֱשֶׁבֶת כַּעֲשִׂיָּה גּוּפְנִיִּית אֶצְלוֹ יִתְבָּרַךְ, כְּמוֹ שֶׁכָּתוּב8: “כֻּלָּם בְּחָכְמָה עָשִׂיתָ”.
שֶׁהוּא הַמַּדָּע וְהוּא הַיּוֹדֵעַ כו’, וְדָבָר זֶה אֵין בִּיכֹלֶת הָאָדָם לַהֲבִינוֹ עַל בֻּרְיוֹ כו’, כְּדִכְתִיב9: “הַחֵקֶר אֱלוֹהַּ תִּמְצָא”, וּכְתִיב10: “כִּי לֹא מַחְשְׁבוֹתַי מַחְשְׁבוֹתֵיכֶם” וגו’.
וְאַף שֶׁיֵּשׁ רִבְבוֹת מִינֵי חִלּוּקֵי מַדְרֵגוֹת בַּנְּשָׁמוֹת, גָּבוֹהַּ מֵעַל גָּבוֹהַּ לְאֵין קֵץ, כְּמוֹ גֹּדֶל מַעֲלַת נִשְׁמוֹת הָאָבוֹת וּמֹשֶׁה רַבֵּינוּ עֲלֵיהֶם הַשָּׁלוֹם עַל נִשְׁמוֹת דּוֹרוֹתֵינוּ אֵלֶּה דְּעִקְּבֵי מְשִׁיחָא, שֶׁהֵם בְּחִינַת עֲקֵבִים מַמָּשׁ לְגַבֵּי הַמֹּחַ וְהָרֹאשׁ. וְכֵן בְּכָל דּוֹר וָדוֹר יֵשׁ רָאשֵׁי אַלְפֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, שֶׁנִּשְׁמוֹתֵיהֶם הֵם בְּחִינַת רֹאשׁ וּמֹחַ לְגַבֵּי נִשְׁמוֹת הֶהָמוֹן וְעַמֵּי הָאָרֶץ, וְכֵן נְפָשׁוֹת לְגַבֵּי נְפָשׁוֹת, כִּי כָּל נֶפֶשׁ כְּלוּלָה מִנֶּפֶשׁ רוּחַ וּנְשָׁמָה. מִכָּל מָקוֹם שֹׁרֶשׁ כָּל הַנֶּפֶשׁ רוּחַ וּנְשָׁמָה כֻּלָּם, מֵרֹאשׁ כָּל הַמַּדְרֵגוֹת עַד סוֹף כָּל דַּרְגִין הַמְּלֻבָּשׁ בְּגוּף עַמֵּי הָאָרֶץ וְקַל שֶׁבְּקַלִּים, נִמְשָׁךְ מִמֹּחַ הָעֶלְיוֹן שֶׁהִיא חָכְמָה עִלָּאָה כִּבְיָכוֹל, כִּמְשַׁל הַבֵּן הַנִּמְשָׁךְ מִמֹּחַ הָאָב, שֶׁאֲפִלּוּ צִפָּרְנֵי רַגְלָיו נִתְהַוּוּ מִטִּפָּה זוֹ מַמָּשׁ, עַל יְדֵי שְׁהִיָּתָהּ תִּשְׁעָה חֳדָשִׁים בְּבֶטֶן הָאֵם, וְיָרְדָה מִמַּדְרֵגָה לְמַדְרֵגָה לְהִשְׁתַּנּוֹת וּלְהִתְהַוּוֹת מִמֶּנָּה צִפָּרְנַיִם. וְעִם כָּל זֶה עוֹדֶנָּה קְשׁוּרָה וּמְיֻחֶדֶת בְּיִחוּד נִפְלָא וְעָצוּם בְּמַהוּתָהּ וְעַצְמוּתָהּ הָרִאשׁוֹן, שֶׁהָיְתָה טִפַּת מֹחַ הָאָב. וְגַם עַכְשָׁיו בַּבֵּן, יְנִיקַת הַצִּפָּרְנַיִם וְחַיּוּתָם נִמְשֶׁכֶת מֵהַמֹּחַ שֶׁבָּרֹאשׁ, כִּדְאִיתָא בִּגְמָרָא [נִדָּה שָׁם11]: לֹבֶן שֶׁמִּמֶּנּוּ גִּידִים וַעֲצָמוֹת וְצִפָּרְנַיִם.
[וּכְמוֹ שֶׁכָּתַב בְּעֵץ חַיִּים שַׁעַר הַחַשְׁמַל בְּסוֹד לְבוּשִׁים שֶׁל אָדָם הָרִאשׁוֹן בְּגַן עֵדֶן, שֶׁהָיוּ צִפָּרְנַיִם מִבְּחִינַת מֹחַ תְּבוּנָה].
וְכָכָה מַמָּשׁ כִּבְיָכוֹל בְּשֹׁרֶשׁ כָּל הַנֶּפֶשׁ רוּחַ וּנְשָׁמָה שֶׁל כְּלָלוּת יִשְׂרָאֵל לְמַעְלָה, בִּירִידָתוֹ מִמַּדְרֵגָה לְמַדְרֵגָה עַל יְדֵי הִשְׁתַּלְשְׁלוּת הָעוֹלָמוֹת אֲצִילוּת בְּרִיאָה יְצִירָה עֲשִׂיָּה מֵחָכְמָתוֹ יִתְבָּרַךְ, כְּדִכְתִיב12: “כֻּלָּם בְּחָכְמָה עָשִׂיתָ”, נִתְהַוּוּ מִמֶּנּוּ נֶפֶשׁ רוּחַ וּנְשָׁמָה שֶׁל עַמֵּי הָאָרֶץ וּפְחוּתֵי הָעֵרֶךְ; וְעִם כָּל זֶה עוֹדֶינָה קְשׁוּרוֹת וּמְיוּחָדוֹת בְּיִחוּד נִפְלָא וְעָצוּם בְּמַהוּתָן וְעַצְמוּתָן הָרִאשׁוֹן, שֶׁהִיא הַמְשָׁכַת חָכְמָה עִלָּאָה, כִּי יְנִיקַת וְחַיּוּת נֶפֶשׁ רוּחַ וּנְשָׁמָה שֶׁל עַמֵּי הָאָרֶץ הוּא מִנֶּפֶשׁ רוּחַ וּנְשָׁמָה שֶׁל הַצַּדִּיקִים וְהַחֲכָמִים רָאשֵׁי בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל שֶׁבְּדוֹרָם.
וּבָזֶה יוּבָן מַאֲמַר רַזַ”ל13 עַל פָּסוּק14 “וּלְדָבְקָה בּוֹ”, שֶׁכָּל הַדָּבֵק בְּתַלְמִיד חָכָם, מַעֲלֶה עָלָיו הַכָּתוּב כְּאִלּוּ נִדְבַּק בַּשְּׁכִינָה מַמָּשׁ. כִּי עַל יְדֵי דְּבִיקָה בְּתַלְמִידֵי חֲכָמִים, קְשׁוּרוֹת נֶפֶשׁ רוּחַ וּנְשָׁמָה שֶׁל עַמֵּי הָאָרֶץ וּמְיוּחָדוֹת בְּמַהוּתָן הָרִאשׁוֹן וְשָׁרְשָׁם שֶׁבְּחָכְמָה עִלָּאָה, שֶׁהוּא יִתְבָּרַךְ וְחָכְמָתוֹ אֶחָד וְהוּא הַמַּדָּע כו’. [וְהַפּוֹשְׁעִים וּמוֹרְדִים בְּתַלְמִידֵי חֲכָמִים, יְנִיקַת נֶפֶשׁ רוּחַ וּנְשָׁמָה שֶׁלָּהֶם מִבְּחִינַת אֲחוֹרַיִם שֶׁל נֶפֶשׁ רוּחַ וְנִשְׁמַת תַּלְמִידֵי חֲכָמִים]:
וּמַה שֶּׁכָּתוּב בַּזֹּהַר15 וּבְזֹהַר חָדָשׁ16 שֶׁהָעִקָּר תָּלוּי שֶׁיְּקַדֵּשׁ עַצְמוֹ בִּשְׁעַת תַּשְׁמִישׁ דַּוְקָא, מַה שֶּׁאֵין כֵּן בְּנֵי עַמֵּי הָאָרֶץ כו’, הַיְנוּ מִשּׁוּם שֶׁאֵין לְךָ נֶפֶשׁ רוּחַ וּנְשָׁמָה שֶׁאֵין לָהּ לְבוּשׁ מִנֶּפֶשׁ דְּעַצְמוּת אָבִיו וְאִמּוֹ. וְכָל הַמִּצְווֹת שֶׁעוֹשֶׂה, הַכֹּל עַל יְדֵי אוֹתוֹ הַלְּבוּשׁ כו’, וַאֲפִלּוּ הַשֶּׁפַע שֶׁנּוֹתְנִים לוֹ מִן הַשָּׁמַיִם, הַכֹּל עַל יְדֵי לְבוּשׁ זֶה. וְאִם יְקַדֵּשׁ אֶת עַצְמוֹ, יַמְשִׁיךְ לְבוּשׁ קָדוֹשׁ לְנִשְׁמַת בְּנוֹ. וַאֲפִלּוּ הִיא נְשָׁמָה גְּדוֹלָה, צְרִיכָה לְקִדּוּשׁ אָבִיו כו’. אֲבָל הַנְּשָׁמָה עַצְמָהּ, הִנֵּה לִפְעָמִים נִשְׁמַת אָדָם גָּבוֹהַּ לְאֵין קֵץ בָּא לִהְיוֹת בְּנוֹ שֶׁל אָדָם נִבְזֶה וְשָׁפֵל כו’, כְּמוֹ שֶׁכָּתַב הָאֲרִ”י זַ”ל כָּל זֶה בְּלִקּוּטֵי תּוֹרָה פָּרָשַׁת וַיֵּרָא וּבְטַעֲמֵי מִצְווֹת פָּרָשַׁת בְּרֵאשִית.
“Would you similarly argue that someone who learns Torah sheba’al peh from a sefer is doing something wrong since it’s only muttar because of eis la’asos Lashem heferu?”
Would you similarly argue that now that Esther married a non jew because of Eis Laasos it is now muttar (and according to you proper) to marry a non jew?
When we say Eis Laasos and something becomes temporarily muttar or even proper for that moment that is in NO WAY coming to change the Torah value system or principles.
And yes there is very much of the Torah shebaal peh Takanah that we still observe today in spite of the Eis Laasos that is why gemaras are to this day still printed without nekudos, it is said that is why the Gra wrote mostly abbreviations and more.
The Torah’s values and principles are forever and even if temporarily suspended not subject to change.
If the Rambam is declaring that one who learns and supports himself is the higher madrega and the Kesef Mishna at no point disagrees with that rather to the contrary agrees with that point of the Rambam than any other suggestion is trying to change the Torah and FALSE.
DY – A part of the Kesef Mishna you did not quote:
Ein safek shemi shechanano hashem yisborach sheyisparnes memelachti ASSUR lo litol.
Gam ki nodeh shehalacha kdivrei rabeinu bperush hamishna efsher shehiskimu kein kol chachmei hadoros mishum eis laasos lashem heferu sorasecha.
Please translate the word HEFERU!
1. Look at Radvaz on that Rambam in Shemita Vyovel where he clearly says the Rambam there is not contradicting his harsh words he says in Talmud Torah about people who make parnassah from Torah rather his intention is the “Lo shevet Levi bilvad” will have Siyata Dishmaya in their work for parnassah and earn enough to free up their time to learn Torah.
2. The point about Rav Moshe in the Tshuva is that he is clearly going with the pashut pshat in the Rambam that the one who learns and works is the HIGHER Madrega and not the other way around.
3. For you to throw such a severe Rambam in the garbage by throwing out a reckless “We don’t pasken like that” is Ziyuf Torah as I said. I wouldn’t exactly compare this Rambam to paskening like Beis Shamai as you are suggesting… A careful reading of the Kesef Mishna you quoted will show the opposite of what you said in his name, all the Kesef Mishna does is defend people who do earn money from Torah Learning.
The Biur Halacha can be understood just as the Kesef Mishna, (although I can see in the words of the Biur Halacha how one can misread them as to be arguing on the Rambam as to what is a higher madrega) merely providing a HETER for those who wish to go AGAINST the Shulchan Aruch and Not got to work.
To go against the simple reading of Rov Rishonim, Tur and Shulchan Aruch along with many Achronim on the basis of your understanding of the Biur Halacha is Megaleh Panim Batorah Shelo Kehalacha.
4. For some reason none of your “Poskim” decided to change the tefillos we say at the most critical and holiest times of the year (Birkas Kohanim, Hotzaas Sefer Torah Yomim Noraim, Birkas habanim Erev Yom Kippur) which ALL ask Hashem at length for blessing in PARNASSAH that will enable Avodas Hashem.
To Daas Yochid:
Your post is complete ZIYUF HATORAH!
1. The Tur and Shulchan Aruch pasken (Orach Chaim 156) explicitly like the Rambam that after davening and learning in the morning one must GO TO WORK.
2. In Igros Moshe Rav Moshe feinstein clearly lays out the Torah Perspective that obviously one who is able to excel at both Talmud Torah and Parnassa Bkavod like the Tannaim an Amoraim is the ideal Oved Hashem and the highest level. Rav Moshe explains the current minhag of many as due to YERIDAS HADOROS and loss of strength to excel at both creating the need for Klal Yisrael splitting into “teams” that each focus more on Learning or Parnassa.
RAV MOSHE DID NOT ONLY NOT MISS THE PROOFS OF THE RAMBAM BUT EXPLAINS THEM AS IS WITHOUT TRYING TO CHANGE THE TORAH AS YOU ARE.
3. To AriHalevi:
LEARN CHOVOS HALEVAVOS AND STOP CARING WHAT RAYKANIM AND POCHAZIM AROUND YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND YOU WILL FIND A SHIDDUCH ONE HUNDRED TIMES BETTER THAN ALL OF THE POOR SOULS AROUND YOU WASTING THEIR LIFE PURSUING GRATIFICATION IN THE EYES OF THE PEOPLE AROUND THEM.
If the Mitzva from the Torah of Shofar was cancelled on the first day of Rosh Hashana bec. of the FEW or even ONE person who might carry daled amos on Shabbos, Kal Vachomer (Chamira sacanta meissura) the Mitzva (which according to some is not even an obligation) of Tefila Betzibur would have been abolished by Sanhedrin today until the danger of gatherings passed.
All the ridiculous attempts at denial of the sick and dead from Covid in front of our eyes by factoring into global death rates and numbers and all the other ridiculous claims are nothing short of and the absolute equivalent of Holocaust Denial.July 1, 2018 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1549853
As long as “Frum” boys and girls schools around the world keep turning away children looking for a Torah education, the Geulah is FAR FAR AWAY.
Until a REAL GADOL arises in Klal Yisroel and stops the spilling of the blood of thousands of innocent jewish boys and girls each year the galus will continue and continue and continue. Anyone who thinks we can keep ignoring THE NUMBER ONE PROBLEM in Klal Yisroel is fooling themselves.
Rav Yehoshua ben Gamla is spinning in his grave at how todays generation TRAMPLES on his Takana of a Torah education for each child.
I posted a copy of the letter twice but for some reason YWN keeps removing it. The letter was advertised in chareidi papers throughout Israel last a few weeks ago.
I deleted a link, not a letter -29
Very clever answers… In most cases the children not accepted or thrown out from chinuch atzmai have no other local option and can be left out of school for a long time. Do you really think your lomdus will stand foot in front of the kisei hakavod?
At the end of the day how can you claim you care about giving jewish children a Torah education when you yourself are throwing jewish children out of a Torah education???
Even if these Rabbi’s decided they have the power to pasken niduy and cherem on people bzman hazeh, since when is niduy and cherem carried out by throwing tinokos shel beis raban out of yeshiva???