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Z and Gavra,
Right and you also have the right to walk into a black neighborhood wearing a klu klux klan outfit and scream anti black statements (provided that you do not call for violence) but if you get a beating don’t get all self rightous or come crying to anyone
I guess you have seen “Die Hard with a Vengeance”? 🙂
Two wrongs don’t make a right.
000646:
Yes, but the harrassment in any of those examples (assuming they are on public property) is wrong.
BS”D
PBA: If I may?
I believe the concept of “tolerance” applies here. We may be backward, but so what as long as we don’t make anyone else act backward?
It’s like MSseeker elequently said. If I want to be “oppressed” (in your eyes), what right do you have to say that I can’t?
I have a very good Dimyon to which any liberal would agree, but can’t post it here. I can’t even post a hint (I did, but edited it out. Too Risque).
I don’t believe in forcing anyone to follow Halacha (B’zman Hazeh). What I do believe is showing why what we do is correct, and having the person give up of themselves so that they may follow.
In this specific example, I have no problem with her leaving. The fact that we allow her to leave (as opposed to other religions, where she would have been an “honor killing”) shows that we are tolerant.
There are great older girls who are seriously considering going OTD bec of the Shidduch crisis and difficulty getting dates, with very small prospect of ever marrying in the frum community. Hopefully they wont act on their thoughts.
Off topic, but I wouldn’t blame them.
knacker: there are many things that chassdim do that most other observant jews consider to be aveiros. making kiddush this way is counted among them. if someone would do that in our shul we would tell him he is not yotzei kiddush.
i heard that the satmar rebbe used to be mchalel shabbos after shkia until asked otherwise by rav kutler. if this story is true then the satmar rebbe would be considered a mechalel shabbos according to other torah jews. i am not chas veshalov trying to belittle chassidim, gd knows there are things about them we all should learn but facts are facts.
i dont think you can call crazybrit an antisemite for suggesting that many things that the chassidim do are neged halocho according to everyone else.
I’m going to be Moche on behalf of the Chassidim. You may be correct that there are certain shittos that Chassidim hold that are not universally accepted (such as Davening and doing Melacha after Shkia), but they have whom to be Somech on (such as Rabbanu Tam and the Taz). If you are being Motze La’az on those who follow their shittos, you are being Motze La’az on those who created them. Your beef is not with Chassidim, but with Rabbanu Tam.
That being said, I agree that just because Chassidim hold of a shitta doesn’t mean that others need hold of it as well. He may be Yotze (you have no standing telling him he isn’t), but you shouldn’t be Yotze with his Kiddush (as has happened to me many times).
gavra: your personal attack on Health was just wrong. you should be a gavra and apologize publicly on this thread.
Ittisa also said I went over the line. I was thinking about the right way to say it, but I haven’t come up with it yet. So I’ll simply retract my statement and apologize for the hurt that it caused. Health is your name, and may you be blessed with health.
squeak: I’m not saying it didn’t happen. I’m just bringing the objection for people who say things are true because “they are the truth!”. Otherwise I have no beef in this discussion one way or the other (and don’t really care one way or the other). As I said earlier, I was taught that it did happen, and I THINK that it did happen. That doesn’t prove that it did happen.
1. Their in-laws still support them?
Actually parents and Brothers in law.
2. Who support their sons-in-law?
The United States Government.
Ami is tied to certain segments of the Jewish world that must have the Democrats in power in order to get benefits.
+1
Got it (for the crusaders) from Wikipedia (assuming that it says what it claims to): Article: “Persecution of Jews in the First Crusade”.
Salo Wittmayer Baron (1957). Social and Religious History of the Jews, Volume 4. Columbia University Press.
Kinos, if you need that, but I wouldn’t consider it “proof” in the standard sense.
Do you have proof the Turks attempted genocide against the Armenians and the Crusaders against the Jews, or do you doubt their occurance?
The Turks? Yes. Google “armenian genocide”. I’ve also quoted here to that effect from others.
The Crusaders? Not offhand, but I’m sure I could find if I looked. Why?
Health: I’m very sorry that it is personal, but it is Pashut a Gemorah:
?”? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????
And there is a reason why you are divorced. It comes out in the coffee room, I could only imagine how it came out in your home. 🙁
On that note, I feel that I can no longer discuss the topic with you, as I am “biased”, and you will be “biased” against me. If sushe or anyone else wishes to discuss, I would be more than happy to do so.
Gavra: what, exactly, is an example of an “unbiased” source that discusses this issue?
I don’t know (since I don’t have a source).
Evidence: Records of conversations held regarding the matter. (such as L’Havdil the the Wannsee Conference). Documentation that something actually happened from a first hand source, and published in a respected journal (not in a “magazine” that can’t print anything that doesn’t toe the party line). A picture. Even a number of first hand biographies would be circumstantial evidence that there was some sort of official policy. Physical evidence.
Conjecture: Third hand sources (like R’ Rosenblum saying so in the Jerusalem Post instead of Mishpacha). Saying “everyone knows” or “The Gedolim said so”.
Biased: Health saying “it is the truth!” (or anything, due to his personality). Neturei Karta. Joseph. Ahmadinejad.
I think that sums it up, if I missed anything, I apologize.
Look, I’ve also been taught that it happened, and I THINK it may have. But Health saying so B’derech Pashut and his “proofs” just irk me (and I’m sure many others as well). It’s just not Yashrus.
Sam2: It’s Pashtus Rashi in Keddushin on the Mishna. Ayin Shom.
but at least I don’t say the same thing over and over and over again.
I do. Prove it!
From Mishpacha mag
You call that an unbiased source?! You may as well have quoted Neturei Karta.
?? ??,? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?’ ????? ???? ?’ ????? ??’ ????? ??? ??? (?????? ?) ????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????
Why did the Zionists forcibly cut off the peyos of the Teimani children against their parents will, and threaten to take away and institutionalize their children if they refused to cooperate and send their children to chiloni schools?
Prove it. Saying “The Gedolim said so” or anything printed by Neturi Karta/Satmer (I assume your “source”) is unacceptable, and will disqualify you from further debate. 🙂
zionists are bad.
🙂
An assumption. If it is a true assumption, then it’s a good reason.
Prove there was a Persian Empire.
No problem. Herodotus (one of the first historians, and accepted by his peers) documented (in The Histories) many of the Greek-Persian wars, as well as much of the Persian Empire Kings (similar to our “Melachim”). If you want a Jewish source, how about Daniel?
Later Persian Empires (such as the Sassanids) are even easier. Procopius documented the fights of the Romans against the Persian Empire, as well as the Babylonian Talmud (there’s a source that even you would accept!)
How about coins of the Persian Empire that still exist?
Without me doing any research into it – I’d say maybe they aren’t Mechuyav in Pru OOrevu because it’s a Mitzva Shehazman Gromoh. There are times when it’s Ossur to be together.
ROTFLOL!!!!!!!!!!
I guess Oomis is more learned than Health.
Does anyone have any idea what we can do?
Earn less. You may save money by doing so.
Not for nothing did Romney say: “I’m not concerned about the very poor. We have a safety net there. If it needs repair, I’ll fix it.”
It’s a historical fact. How do you prove there was once a man George Washington? Or it that untrue without proof?
So is Evolution :-), dinosaurs, lice growing from Eggs, or many other “unacceptable” Hashkafas.
I can prove there was a George Washington (for example, he signed the constitution, which is still available for viewing today). Can you prove anything?
Saying “It is a fact” is equal to saying “I have no proof”.
Seriously, though, how common is lifelong kollel with no outside income or responsibilities whatsoever?
I suggest someone go into Lakewood and take a poll. Then they can go to Otisville and take a poll. Perhaps the Creedmoor Chassidus can sponsor?
yichusdik – E/o knows that the Zionists took scores and scores of Yemenites and their kids and Shmaded them up, whether they kidnapped them or not. Do you deny this?
Prove it. Saying “The Gedolim said so” is unacceptable, and will disqualify you from further debate. 🙂
Interesting. They are not retirees or early retirees from the working world?
Nope
A Pasuk in Vayikra (Emor)
????????? ???????? ???????? ????????, ??? ?????????? ???????; ?????????????, ??? ????????.
Depends. Would it require only shoichad or also intimidation of eidim? :))
No Shochad. Making the Dayanim an offer they simply can’t refuse.
Assume the intimidation of Eidim and/or consequences of refusing is taken care of by a couple of “friends of mine” (practically family) from Mulberry Street (of course, now they live in a much nicer location 😉
To win or otherwise :)))?
To get them to throw the whole thing into a fair and unbiased secular court.
🙂
TY,the entitlement has been restored.
Avi: It most certainly has not been.
Yes it has, no it has not. Yes it has, no it has not.
Rav Kook is a Gadol, Satmer Rov is misguided. Rav Kook is misguided, Satmer Rov is a Gadol. Rav Kook is a Gadol, Satmer Rov is misguided. Rav Kook is misguided, Satmer Rov is a Gadol.
I got there first and its mine, no I got there first!
Mommy, he hit me second! No he hit me second!
Did I leave anything out? If I did, the great Bear (welcome back!) will finish it off, just like the Locusts in Arbeh finished off what remained from the great hail.
However, I personally feel safer in America than in Israel, because I think that Israel will not protect me from religious persecution as well as America will.
Agreed, from both the left and the right.
+2
At the end of the day, is there such a thing as lifetime kollel unless someone becomes a rosh kollel himself? At some point, doesn’t everyone do some type of work, usually in rabbonus, chinuch or other klei koidesh fields?
No. I am aware of a number of grandfathers who are still in Kollel full time.
Does anyone actually learn Jewish history anymore, or do we just wing it and modify it to suit our ideological needs?
The second option.
The sole purpose of history is to show the proper derech. It is similar to Gedolim “stories” in the Artscroll Seforim. They exist for Mussar and to show the Derech HaYashar, not to actually tell the story of the Gedolim. That would be more for a biography, which Artscroll does not print.
WIY: Long boring speaches when you would rather be eating Cholent or learning in Bais.
I would define it as followers of the Rav.
Excellent. Then include all the Toras Moshe Rabbis (such as Rabbi Dr. Meiselman) and their followers (such as Dovid Kornriech) as MO, and their opponents (such as Rabbi Slifkin) as Charaidi 🙂
If Maamid Har Sinai is an option I’ll go there and be quiet.
I don’t particularly enjoy Mordechai Ben-David’s music.
You Kofer!
Isn’t that the shabbos that the Lakewood Roshei yeshiva are in town?
LOL 🙂
(Just a joke)
gavra at work: i dont think that having the tzibbur participate in the torah education of its community is considered lehitztureych labriyos. the public school system is funded by every homeowner. the catholic schools by every member of the catholic church. if education is a basic right and not a privilege then the community ought to bear some of the responsibility. al achas kamma vekamma torah education is a right and not a privilege. also, see ????? ????? ???? ??? ? wherein the obligation to be mechanen children falls on the parents but also the grandparents and the tzibbur. in fact, the chassidishe communities that truly value torah education already have the tzibbur heavily involved in the chinuch of all of its members and tuition among those communities do not break the backs of the parents.
I’m not sure what your point is. Are you saying that tuition deductions are not taking Tzedaka? What about money given to Yeshivos? Is that giving Tzedaka?
Now if a communal system was in place (that accepted every single child from the community that applied, no matter how “frum” they or their parents are), then I might agree with you as far as some sort of taxation (not Tzedaka) and lower payments by all (also not). By making the differences in payments on a needs basis shows that the moneys given is to help the poor, which is Tzedaka.
tzaddiq: The same argument as yours can be (and has been) made for amalgamation/miscegeny. Without the Torah as a guide, there is no reason why anything should be prohibited between consenting adults.
Yserbius: You accept the evolutionary theory that your zaidy was an ape?
You accept Torah that your Zaidy was dirt?
I do (accept Torah), but your point is not an argument against evolution.
Now I’ll discuss your numbers:
a family of 7, after taxes your $150,000 becomes about $100,000. you have 4 kids in yeshiva, each one asks for $11,000 meaning you pay $44,000 in tuition. You have rent of about $2500 a month and student loans and credit card debts of about $1000 a month. thats $42,000 a year right there. Car payments and car insurance cuts another $500 a month. there goes another $6,000. 4 shabboses a week cost you another $1000 a month, and there goes another $12,000. and now youre $4000 in the hole. and you have nothing to save so youll never buy a house. you cant afford a babysitter, yet alone a night out so you never go out. we havent even discussed summer camps.
Rent of $2500 a month = 4 bedrooms in Brooklyn. I guess that is OK. Not everyone can live in a two bedroom apartment.
student loans and credit card debts of about $1000 a month – Too high! what did you do to get 1000K a month is SL and you only earn 150K? And you already have four children paying tuition?
Car Payments & Insurance $500: High for one car, normal/low for two. I thought the advantage of Brooklyn is that you don’t need a car?
4 shabboses a week cost you another $1000 a month: “A’se Shabbatcha Chol V’Al Yitztarich L’Briyos”.
I think your numbers are slightly too tight, but somewhat reasonable given the expectations of an “in-town” family and their needs (and yes, consider that a lack of disrespect).
Also, what in the world happened to the first 10-15 years you were married?
i have heard from a number of yeshiva executives that they expect a high earner to set aside 25% of his income to yeshiva tuition.
Hate to say it (and Al Todin does apply), but you would hope that “Yeshiva executives'” expectations do not limit or force someone to take Tzedaka when it isn’t needed.
Of course, it is possible that the 150K earner has a wife who is sick CV and he can’t afford the payments. But none the less, it is still Tzedaka.
Works great in English, but it doesnt work as well in Yiddish which the Chofetz Chaim spoke
But Health got it from Gedolim who said the story is True!
GAW – And I got it from Gedolim who said the story is True!
Health said, and therefore it was.
The story from the Chofetz Chaim saying “Kook, Shmook, Book, is true; whether you and others are in denial or Not!
Health said, and therefore it was.
GAW -“Why not? Mitzva Ba’ah LYadcha Al T’Acher! Al Tomar Ephne V’Eshne Shema Lo Tipane!”
Ok your opinion is – there is nothing wrong with a shotgun wedding?!?!?!
You seem to be the only one with this opinion!
Never seems to stop you 🙂
There is a Rav in Far Rockaway that holds that Bats give birth to live young in the physical world and lay eggs in the Spritual world.
Rav Moshe Shmuel Shapiro ZTL (Of the Moetzes in EY) says the same. It (IMHO) is part of the basis of Torah U’Mada.
A wife’s consent is not enough for a husband to learn in kollel, one must take into account the children.
We are assuming the family does not live in poverty. After all, they are paying full tuition! If not, then they have to ask a very specific shaila if they have the right to take Tzedaka in order to learn, as well as sacrifice any luxuries (A’se Shabbatcha Chol V’Al Yitztarich L’Briyos) in order to pay such tuition.
HaLeiVi:
‘Chachma’ is not practical or objective science (which is a Machlokes if it is Muttar to learn on Shabbos, see hilchos Muktza, but is certainly Muttar B’Chol). Perhaps it means Greek Philosophy (AKA Chachmas Yevanis)?
In the community I come from, the girls want their husband to learn just as much- if not more than- the husband wants to learn. They routinely will not even consider a shidduch with a guy who does not plan to learn at least 3-5 years after marriage.
Hence the shidduch crisis.
That is what the girls get for going to Israel, removing their brain, washing and scrubbing vigorously, and reprogramming it to the Sem teachers specifications. 😉