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How about a husband’s responsibility towards his wife? In the kesubah doesn’t it say that he is supposed to support her financially? Since when is the wife or her parents responsible to support HIM? just venting.
I don’t think you are over reacting, a mother worries about her children and I would be beside myself. But at this point you really can’t control him, sometimes we have to let our kids make mistakes and learn from them, as hard as it is for us parents to do.
But keep on telling him from time to time that your phone is right there all night and if he needs you you will be there for him.
It must be very hard that he is out all night, you are understandably very worried. Does your son have a cell phone? I would tell my son that in case of emergency he should call and I will pick him up. no questions asked. And I would sleep with my cell phone on my night table. Would that work for you, would it make you less worried at night?
“I have that with my son as well. While he is not otd,”
Adams, you do not have a kid off the derech, you can’t understand and I am glad you don’t. Your son fasts on Yom Kippur, doesn’t eat bread on Pesach, doesn’t eat at McDonalds? Acceptance does come but first a parent goes through a mourning process.
Write or Wrong, don’t give up, your son is young and he could come back to frumkiet. He is at a tough age and he will mature and grow up. Hang on and be patient.
Write or Wrong, I highly doubt zehavasdad has gone through what we have gone through, having a child off the derech. He cannot understand the pain a parent goes through. I have spoken with other parents who are in our situation and they also went through a mourning over their loss. It is very normal and people who didn’t go through it are clueless.
IY”H you will have nachas from your son yet! These are the rocky teenage years, be patient, they do grow up and mature into adults you can be proud of!
Just be patient and get the support you need to get through it.
By the way, have you ever read “Off the Derech” by Faranak Margolese?
Sixteen is too young for him to be kicked out of the house. Is it at all possible for him to have his own room? I think the main focus should be towards him becoming independent and being a “mensch”. Perhaps he could go to school or learn a trade. Maybe by the time he is eighteen he will be in the army so he will be out of the house. Not that the army is so great but it’s better than being on the streets.
Write or wrong, I know exactly what you are going through. It’s a real hell on earth. I don’t know if you can afford it but it would be good for you to have a therapist to talk to. Try to take a little vacation with your husband and get away from this stress. There are so many parents that are just like you, going through the same thing. You are for sure not alone (not that it makes it any less painful). It is not your fault.
I think that us parents who have kids who are OTD go through a mourning process. We had this dream that we would have children and they would be frum and get married and you would have these cute little grandchildren. Then you wake up to a nightmare. and you mourn your dream but then you face the reality that things could be much worse.
I am wondering how your other children are coping with this. It must be very hard for them too.
Anyways I hope things get better very soon. Hang in there and don’t let it consume you, remember to take breaks for yourself and your husband. hatzlocha!
No, you can’t throw him out of your house. He is very young and won’t be able to make it on his own. On the other hand he needs to be in some sort of framework/program where he is accomplishing a goal. It is more than okay for you to discuss goals with him like getting a job and moving out eventually.
I understand your situation very well as I went through it. there are good times and sometimes very BAD times. Thank G-d my daughter had her own room, it would have been very hard if she was sharing a room with a sibling. I tried making rules in the house but she had a hard time following and did what she pleased. It was hard for all of us.
Yes, you do have the right to ask him to be respectful. But he is not able to be respectful of you right now. He is young and not able to live on his own, I don’t know what options you have and I forgot if he is dorming somewhere for school. I know first hand how miserable it is to live in a house where the teen is not keeping shabbos, you feel very angry as if he is ruining your whole home and everything you worked for. But what really does ruin the home is the lack of shalom bayis and the anger that is there. You have to make a decision. If he lives home with you, then you have to show him love and support. The anger is destructive and will get you nowhere. If you feel that your house is being shaken to it’s core and can’t deal with him, then you may need to have him out of the house (of course you should ask a gadol about this decision). Your son is sixteen, right? I think that if at all possible you should try to keep him home, because if he is not allowed home you will be basically throwing him to the dogs and he will end up living with an Arab woman or some other horrible nightmare. Much worse than an earring in his ear. I am sorry you are going through such bad times but keep davening and hopefully the situation will get better. You must be very patient. I know it’s hard. 🙁
What kind of comments do you anticipate people making to you about your son?
Yesterday I met someone in the store. She asked me specifically about each of my children (by name) and how they were, what they are up to. Didn’t ask me about my child who is OTD. I don’t know what is worse, when they ask or they DON’T ask.
I read an excellent article today in the Mishpacha Magazine about why children go off the derech. Basically it was saying that the common denominator is that the child is made to feel like they don’t fit in or they don’t belong. So I guess your job now is to show love and include as much as you can. Compliment your son if he shows up to shul. Wow, been ages since my kid stepped into a shul.
continued hatzlocha to you and may you and your mishpacha have a good gebenched year and see nachas from your son!
RABBAIM, so it is better to leave nothing for the child who is OTD but hurt,anger, pain, and bitterness? forever?
Perhaps the OTD child will not spend the money on bad things. Fakairt, maybe he or she will spend it on good things because that’s what the parents would have wanted. Or maybe do teshuvah one day! One can never close the door on a child.
We do avairos but Hashem continues to give us air and water and food.
Write or wrong, I am wondering if he is communicating with girls on his android.
I’m impressed that he fasted on Tisha B’av. Don’t give up, hang in there. Also, are you in touch with a Rov about this situation?
He is too young to be kicked out of the house. He has no way to support himself and make it on his own. Who knows what will happen to him.
I say wait and be patient. In the winter the bad chevrah won’t be hanging out all night.
Interesting that he used the cigarettes that your husband bought him on shabbos. Sometimes I get my daughter a mani/pedi certificate but since I bought it for her she does not use them on Shabbos.
I agree with aries2756. Do not buy him cigarettes or liquor. On the other hand, get him something that is good for him, a healthy outlet. For example if he likes to work out, get him a gym membership or weights, etc.
EDITED siblings, EDITED brothers, EDITED sisters. I don’t know how my mother did it.
Write or Wrong, that is great that he likes to fix things, maybe he can work with an electrician or plumber? Do you have any friends that would take this on as a huge chesed, ask your son if he has time to help him with a job?
Your son is going through a hard time right now. Hang in there. Make sure he knows how much you love him. I think after a while he will get sick of doing nothing. The weather will turn cooler and it won’t be so much fun to hang out at night when it’s cold out.
Write or Wrong, I feel badly that you are going through such a rough time. I am also very touched by all the people who have written in trying to help you.
Could it be that your son has ODD (oppositional defiance disorder) and/or ADD? Was he ever tested for this?
I hope you are hanging in there, I know how tough it is for you.
What is your son doing all night long with his friends? Are there drugs involved? This may explain his behavior.
Write or Wrong, perhaps you know someone who would hire him to do some sort of job? I know someone whose son was OTD but he B”H got a job working for a frum plumber who really took him under his wing. The boy became frum eventually and is married now!
Your son would have a reason to get up in the morning and he would feel good about himself and what kid doesn’t like some extra money?
Hatzlocha rabah!
I think it depends on what you are used to. If you grew up with a pet, you aren’t afraid. But many frum people especially the NYC folk have never had a pet so of course they are terrified. We have two orange cats. My daughter’s friends thought they were lions. 🙂
I don’t think poppa bar abba is heartless, he is just parroting what others say and believes this to be true. Hopefully his kids will all be frum and noone off the derech. I don’t wish this on anyone.
“Kids go off the derech because their parents are messed up.” Yes, that’s what I thought till it happened to me. There are many reasons for a child going OTD. But it is not always the fault of the parent.
Write or Wrong, I have been following this thread very closely, although I have not commented in a while. As a mother of a child who is OTD, I know what pain you are going through and have been praying for you. Here in America there are Rabbonim that specifically deal with boys that are OTD. There must be Rabbonim that deal with these boys in Israel, from what I understand there are plenty there too unfortunately. It would be great if there was a program in Israel for OTD boys for the summer, like they have in America. I am sure you are doing your research and doing all you can for your son. Hang in there, you are going to have much nachas from him IY”H. You must tell him how much you love him and he is and will always be a part of you and your family. Keep davening! Sending hugs, Ima of Three
Thanks write or wrong. For your son as well! Just met a friend at the grocery store and she told me she has TWO children off the derech. So sad.
I am happy that you got support and encouragement from the coffee room. I remember when shabbos was very hard when my daughter lived at home. I wish you hatzlocha rabba, my tefillos are with you.
The most important thing is to have a good relationship with your son, and that he knows you love him no matter what. This way he will not do things that are really bad (drugs/girls) because he won’t want to hurt you.
I went to a zillion Rabbonim and spent a lot of money on therapists. But this is the most important piece of advice I can give you.
Hang on and be very patient, IY”H you will see he will turn himself around. Always keep the door open.
Of course the small thing mean something but if you make a big deal over it and let it take over your relationship with your son then you better believe you will be in for the bigger fun stuff, including drugs and mixing with girls and things that are a parents worst nightmare. Yes, I understand that you are not thrilled with what he is doing right now but try to be calm and see the bigger picture.
He listens to music and watches videos? big deal! Pray that this is the worst he will do. I laugh when I remember the big deal I made over my daughter wearing short socks, little did I know what was to come.
Hopefully your son is just going through a hard time and will get over this soon, but don’t flip out over the small stuff.
Maybe bring a box of ziplock bags, to throw the yogurt container in so it won’t smell up the car? Bring a frebreeze or other air freshioner to give a quick shpritz, providing other people don’t mind and are not allergic.
This week Ami magazine had an article about schizophrenia, the part about the person thinking they were dead with bugs crawling all over them was shocking.
msseeker, it is a very big shailoh and has to be asked from an adom gadol, not for something in the coffee room. I think my other children got stronger from it. If chas v’shalom I would have kicked her out of the house I think it would have gotten her siblings very angry and upset. Each situation has to be carefully considered.
Zehavasdad, my daughter has been out of the house for several years and I think it improved our relationship, B”H. Why should I shun my daughter? I could never do that. My heart and home is always open to her.
writeorwrong, I really feel for your situation. I am wondering if his teachers/Rebbe/principal know about what your son is up to these days. Are you able to talk to them and tell them that your son needs some chizzuk?
I am also wondering why your son wants the computer if it doesn’t have internet. having been in your position, let me warn you that OTD kids learn to be very sneaky and you need to be very wary. You do not have to give or share your computer with him. He can get a job this summer or find ways to earn money to buy his own computer. That is my opinion but you of course should ask daas Torah.
write or wrong- having been through what you are going through, I can really relate, and although it’s good that you have reached out and gotten support through the coffee room, you need to ask your own shailos and make your own decisions.
We kept our daughter home as long as possible, until we realized that she was miserable and we were miserable. So we decided together (my daughter plus us) that she should find an apartment for herself. I cried long and hard when we made that decision, I had really tried everything and anything but it just was not working! At that point she was twenty.
Did this whole parsha affect my other children? Yes. It made them stronger in their yiddishkiet and kind and compassionate people. They saw that even though we had an OTD kid we didn’t boot her out of the house like a used tissue. One of my other children mentored kids at risk or siblings of kids at risk.
Tell me msseeker, if someone chas v’shalom has a child with cancer, do they kick the child out or put them away in an institution? A kid who is OTD is suffering and in pain and is acting out. By kicking a sixteen year old boy out of the house, you are teaching the rest of the children that unless you are perfect and fit the “mold”, we will not love you and you are persona non grata in our home.
Anyways, the main thing is to be very patient, he’s going through a rough time. Try to focus on the things he does rather than the things he does not. It would be great if you could find a big brother for him to hang out with, someone he could make a connection to. Also,daven and cry to Hashem to help you and help your son.
I would be happy to help you if you have any other questions. I have gone through this and I know how awful it is. Above all, do not be ashamed as so many of us have been through this. Hang on!
I think that it would be dangerous to have streets closed, what if someone needs an ambulance in the middle of the night? Precious minutes would be lost by moving barricades.
MCP, I also noticed the “He’s tasted better” and didn’t like that but figured he meant that I like yours but I’ve tasted others that I like a drop better. No husband (in his right mind) would make such a comment if he expects his wife to cook for him.
I hate the smell of cigarettes and so does my husband B”H.
I always put in one eight ounce can of tomato sauce.
Usually the mother of the boy does the research on potential shidduchim.
The computer is the worse thing for an off the derech sixteen year old boy. Makes it easy for them to hook up with people that are not good for them.
You ask how I deal with having a daughter that is off the derech? well, it’s been a long time, we tried everything. Now I just daven. and cry.
braid the challos, put on a cookie sheet and freeze for a couple of hours then put the challos in zip lock bags.
Make sure to get help for yourself too! A support group, or a good frum therapist to talk to. What you are going through is extremely painful and don’t be ashamed on getting help for yourself, so you can help your son.
I am davening for your son and all the other kids that are off the derech. Including my daughter.
My children commented how relaxed Ima was about pesach preparations this year. I felt so complimented! That’s the way I want it to be and how I want them to feel!
Isn’t this loshon hora? And nekamah?
It’s not so obvious for some people. One year I took my kids to a small zoo set up for chol hamoed in our town, and I saw frum men and women buying the food to feed the animals. The food was for sure chometz gamur and I told the people but they ignored me. My husband (abbaofthree) told our Rov about this and he said that it is ossur to buy chometz and feed it to animals. He was pretty horrified that they bought chometz, thus OWNING it.
I am sure some bochurim need the break. My husband used to get a job during the time he had off from yeshiva, before we were married. I know some bachurim take this college course for bochurim who want to get some credits during bein hazmanim.
If I don’t get puppa tzailim there is mutiny in the house.
I spray my work out clothes with febreeze and then throw it into the wash.
you obviously have not been to a pesach hotel that is non gebruchts! Delicious food and my kids never complained they were hungry.
I also heard that it is good to plug up holes with steel wool. good luck!