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Golfer:
It’s a complex issue. First, what does it mean that Alexander saw the Earth as a ball? When you look out the window of an airplane do you see a ball? My impression is that in order to see the spherical shape of the world you would have to be well outside the atmosphere. The problem is that if you go too far away, it will appear two dimensional (such as when you look at the moon) so you still won’t be able to see a sphere. So I’m not really sure how Alexander could have seen the world as a ball. (Any scientists around here can feel free to correct what I just said, if it’s wrong.)
Now the way Sam2 explained the Yerushalmi, I can at least understand what Alexander saw – it would be like a hump coming out of the water.
However, I am not convinced of Sam’s pshat. The parallel of the Yerushalmi in the Bavli (Avodah Zarah 41a), says ???”? ???? ?????? ???’: ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???? ????: ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?????: ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?????
Tosafos there (s.v. k’kadur) says
?????? ???? ?????? ???????? ?????????? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??’ ?? ??????? ????? ?? ?? ?????
The Yaavetz, commenting on Tosafos, says ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? which I think he is discussing a round Earth vs. a flat Earth.
It happens to be that there are various statements of Chazal which can perhaps be taken either way. I would say the best assumption is that Chazal themselves did not have a definitive position on the matter. In support of this contention, see the commentary to Sefer Yetzira by R’ Yehuda Ben Barzilai of Barcelona where he says ????”? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ???? and he (quoting R’ Saadia Gaon) seems to basically say that the Chachamim were divided on this matter. (You can see the whole context at http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=21827&st=&pgnum=284 although don’t ask me to explain what’s going on because I don’t really know.)
Regarding Sam’s point about how this relates to Eretz Yisrael being the highest point, see the Maharsha in Kiddushin 69a (where the Gemara says this idea) who says
???”? ???? ??? ?”? ??”? ??? ???’. ?????? ??? ????? ????? ???”? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?”? ???? ???? ??”? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??”? ??? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???????
and the Sefer Hamakneh there who says
?????? ??? ????? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??”? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ??”? ??? ??? ???? ?????”? ?”? ??? ??”? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ????”? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??”? ???? ???? ??”? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??”? ??????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???’ ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???? ??”? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???”? ??? ??? ?’ ?????? ???? ???? ???”? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???’ ?? ?????? ?”? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???’ ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ?? ?? ????? ???? ????? ?”? ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ??”? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ?? ???’ ?????? ????? ???? ????”? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?”? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???’ ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ??? ????
???? ????? ?? ??????? ??????? ?? ????? ????’ ???? ???? ??? ?? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ????”? ??? ???? ???? ???’ ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??”? ??”? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??”? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ???’ ???? ???? ????? ????’ ???? ??? ???? ???? ??”? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??”? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ??”? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ??’ ????? ?????? ?? ??”? ??? ??? ???? ??”? ????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????’ ????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ??”? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??”? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???”? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?”? ????? ?? ?? ??? ??”? ???? ???? ???? ?????”? ????? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ???”? ???? ???? ?”? ??? ?? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??”? ?? ???? ???? ??”? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?”? ???? ??”? ??”? ??”? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???? ??? ?”? ??’ ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??”? ???”? ?? ??’ ????? ??? ??? ??? ?? ????
?? ??”? ??? ??? ???? ??”? ??”? ???? ??? ?????? ?”? ???? ??”? ???? ????”? ????? ????”? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??”? ???? ??? ????? ??”? ?????? ??”? ??? ???”? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ???’ ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???’ ???? ???? ????”? ???? ??????? ??? ??’ ???? ??”? ??”? ??? ???’ ???? ?????, ??”? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???’ ?????. ???’ ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ??”? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???”? ???? ??? ???’ ???? ????? ???? ????, ???? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ??????? ??”? ???? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??????? ?? ????? ????”? ?”? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??”? ???? ??? ????? ??”? ??? ???”? ???? ?? ??????? ??”? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??”? ???”?
Sorry for the longwindedness of the post. I hope it helps somewhat.
“Do you answer questions, too, or just ask them?”
What’s that supposed to mean? I answered the question in two separate ways:
1) By asking a question and whatever the answer to my question would be, you could apply it to your question.
2) By showing precedent for the idea of allowing websites if there is no actual link in the text.
“Why would that be different?”
Why would it be different if I describe how to google it?
Also, see http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/good-jewish-websites#post-534613
Do you answer questions, too, or just ask them?
“sorry, no links”
I know. I was seeing if you would let it in because I made the link in a way that it couldn’t be clicked on.
Why would that be different?
Secretagentyid:
Yerushalmi Avodah Zarah 3:1:
?????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ?? ????? ????? [????’ ? ??] ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ?”? ???? ????????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ???????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???”? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?????
There is no mention of an eagle in the story, though the Penei Moshe in his commentary says ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??”? ????
There’s a more elaborate version of the story in the ???? ???? ?????? which does actually mention an eagle (assumin that nesher is an eagle which is a discussion for another time):
???? ?????? ?? ????????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ?? ????? ???’ ????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ???’ (????? ?’) ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?? ?? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???
As the Penei Moshe pointed out, this story is a famous legend even outside of Torah sources.
sorry, no links
So I listened to it again to see if I could clarify what he said about the Ralbag. It’s pretty hard to make out what he’s saying. After he says that Moreh Nevuchim is good he says “but the _____’s seforim _____ the Ralbag is not so good”. The first blank sounded like he was saying Rasag, Rashag, Rashal, or Ralbag. Presumably he was referring to R’ Saadia Gaon or the Ralbag. If the first blank was “Ralbag” then it seems that he was talking about all his seforim, not just Milchamos Hashem. If the first blank was something else, then he might have only been referring to Milchamos Hashem when he mentioned the Ralbag. The second blank might have been “like” or “but”, which I’m not sure how would fit in the sentence, or it might have been something else entirely – it’s hard to distinguish.
And I also noticed that he also said that Nefesh Hachaim and Kuzari are good as well.
The Little I Know:
I wasn’t talking about this situation or about what the seforim say. I was addressing a general statement which you made, namely “we learned in high school science class, that rewards or punishments that are not nearly immediate to the behavior have no effect on modifying it.” The fact is that the reward/punishment does not need to be immediate (although it definitely can be more effective especially when first programming the behavior). That is the concept of reinforcement schedules. If your high school science class did not teach that then it was lacking something. Though you definitely one-upped me in the “meeting Skinner department”.
“PAA – great point – A great defense against hitting children.”
I wasn’t discussing the chinuch dilemma; I was just pointing out that The Little I Know’s high school science class didn’t properly teach the topic of reinforcements.
You’re not really fooling her. You’re just not telling her that the light will go on. And even if she doesn’t like being fooled, I think attempting to kill the fooler is a bit of an overreaction.
Why would she be angry?
If you agree that this is a halachically permissible way of getting the fridge open, why would she care? And if you disagree halachically then you can’t do it anyway, so her anger is never even an issue.
When one sees this advice, one might question the observation we learned in high school science class, that rewards or punishments that are not nearly immediate to the behavior have no effect on modifying it.
Didn’t you learn about fixed ratio schedules, variable ratio schedules, fixed interval schedules, and variable interval schedules? And even if you didn’t learn about it scientifically, ???? ????? – people work even if they only get paid at the end of the month.
And DaasYochid is the only one who deliberately takes advantage of the glitch.
I’ll correct my own mistake before someone else discovers it:
the English phraseology was not the eloquence of R’ Soloveitchik but of Professor Lawrence Kaplan, the translator of Halakhic Man.
Dr. Kaplan did not translate Halakhic Man; he translated ??? ?????.
I am upfront with the ai bish ter and don’t have to use my sister in law to fool him.
It’s not about fooling the ai bish ter; it’s about fooling your sister-in-law in such a way as to make it that the ai bish ter allows the fridge to be opened.
Perhaps you can tell me the nature of “the joke […] embedded within the depths of the argument,” as I am unaware of it (I’m not saying that it doesn’t exist).
( http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/good-jokes/page/33#post-536736 )
I can’t because I also didn’t get it.
I tried to outsmart the Moderators by posting it on my profile page but all the Hebrew letters just converted into question marks.
So I was listening to a recording of R’ Ruderman discussing seforim to learn for mussar/machshava (which he seemed to say are the same thing) and he said that Maharal is good, Moreh Nevuchim is good but you have to understand it, and he said that the Ralbag is not good. It’s possible that he meant only that Milchamos Hashem is not good, but that his Tanach commentaries are ok.
I sometimes put meat in kugel and I don’t recall it sinking to the bottom. But maybe that’s just me.
There’s a moderator’s note in the comments of one of the news articles:
I guess I found out what would happen if I resubmitted it.
Pele Yoetz “Minhag”:
??? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ??????? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??????? ??????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??????? ?? ????? ???????? ?? ????
??? ??? ?? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??”? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ?”? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?”? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???????? ?? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ?????
?? ?????? ???? ??? ????
???? ?? ??? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ?????
Well once someone brought this thread up
Lesson: dont change a minhag however wrong you think it is. there is always a mekoir.
I will quote some sources that I quoted a few months ago in the Daas Torah thread (I seem to be quoting a lot of my old posts recently):
Maseches Soferim 14:18:
??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ????
Teshuvas HaRosh 55:10:
??? ?? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ?”? ????? ????? ??? ?? ????? [?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ?? ?? ????? ??? ?? ?????] ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ???? ???????? ????? ??? ??????? ????? ?? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ???????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??’ ?? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ??????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ??”? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ??????? ?????? ?? ????? ??’ ?????? ?????? [????] ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?’ ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ?? ?? ????? ?? ????? ??????? [?? ???] ?? ?? ????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???????? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ?? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???’ ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ????? ???????? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???????? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?”? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???’ ???? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?”? ???????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ???????? ???”? ????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??”?
Rashba Bava Basra 144b:
??? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????
And here’s Rabbeinu Yonah (???? ?????? ??? ? – ??? ?) which I quoted in the Techeiles thread a long time ago:
????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????”? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ????
In my next post I’ll add the Pele Yoetz.
Secondly, I did approve your post, someone else must have deleted it.
So what will happen if I resubmit it?
And I was serious?
Apparently, seeing as you didn’t allow my painstaking Hebrew translation either.
PAA: A capital offense is far more severe than an abomination.
It may have a more severe punishment. But ga’ava is more abominable than homosexuality.
PAA: Mishkav zochor unlike ga’avah is a capital offense and as such obviously far more severe.
But it’s less of an abomination.
Don’t like Fruedian Psychology? Is that you proje ting your feelings on me, or are you, perhaps transferring your feelings onto me? Or maybe it is some passive agressive way of makong me undelete your post. So tell me, how long have you had this problem?
Or perhaps you are rationalizing your behavior or perhaps you are in denial about your deletion habits, or perhaps Mod 100 threw rotten tomatoes at you last night so you are displacing your frustration on me, or perhaps by accusing me of using Freudian Defense Mechanisms you are regressing to a stage where ad hominem attacks are better than logical arguments.
I’m joking, relax.
I’ll try posting it in Hebrew; maybe the Moderators will allow it.
aramaic
Syag:
I was responding to SayIDidIt.
SayIDidIt:
I translated it into plain English but apparently the Moderators don’t like Freudian Psychology.