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Are you makir tov to every person who has done anything for any Jew anywhere? This is ridiculous. Or Avoda Zara
it is very hard to take seriously anyone who can utter this line and mean it. Your knowledge about the truth of zionism seems only to be surpassed by your deficiency in knowing how to express yourself in a way that respects other Jews, even when you can’t respect their ways.
popa – not exactly sure who you are trying to rattle cuz I know what you said is baloney. I know plenty of bnei Torah who do, and I have no doubt you do too.
your attitude is right on, he’ll be lucky to have you!
well then I will try to be much more careful to run my personal experiences by you before trying to be michazek someone. sorry for the upset.
well maybe you live a very narrow minded and sheltered life. Maybe.
hodulashem – of course he exists. And his heart can be in the bais medrash even if he is working because sometimes guys know they have to work to afford the bayis neeman hey hope to build. I know many men/guys like that and there is no question they are out there.
I was in the labratory but only as a spectator. And onegoal taught me a bunch of cool pics but I was really green then.
I don’t think anyone said your neighbor was a newlywed. But I am not going over all the posts to verify it either.
jf2 – I think inviting a couple to join my husband and I for our meal is different than giving my husband cookies baked by someone elses wife. I don’t think it is wrong, I just think that there can be times when it is not so appropriate.
WIY – not just you, I felt the same way.
Wow ™!
I’ve learned in first aid certification courses NEVER to put very cold or ice water on a burn because it, too, can damage the skin. It is imperative (per the information I received) to soak in lukewarm/tepid water to keep the skin temp down but not further exacerbate the damage.
JE – don’t you ever wonder if he was really worth answering?
I’m not sure what part of cooling down a burn prevents blistering is impossible for you to understand. I’m also not sure why you think it’s funny to post that way. My 8 year old does that too.
Sidi – thank you again!!!!! I am going to go now to bake challah so I can do the mitzvah of hafrashas challah with Purim Katan kavanah! All in your zchus!
That warm car probably keeps you warm for the rest of the day.
yes, and it challenges me to reciprocate!
Do you think that’s where your 1st grader’s older brother learned to take care of his family as well?
Let’s say I’m sure it wasn’t from me . . .
If you don’t mind a tangent – My first grader was told to write a letter of thanks to a community worker from whom she benefitted. She wrote a letter to her older brother thanking him for shoveling the sidewalk and keeping her shoes clean!
My husband goes out to the car well before I leave and turns it on so the heat will be full blast when I get to the car.
Yes, the loss of a talented individual may be a greater communal tragedy, that’s a good point.
I think it is in the timing and the wording, tho. A hesped is different, in my mind, than what Goq is referring to, but you make a good point.
I agree, Goq. It seems like that is supposed to make us feel worse. And it gives the impression that it might, ch”v, have been less of a tragedy if he wasn’t. I wonder, too, if the media does it because of the way we think, or if we think that way because the media does it.
Wearing “long” is something the kallah will ask her close friends to do. It is a way of saying this friend is “close like family”, since the family also dresses long. I think of it as a way of saying – this is your simcha too, come dressed like us. I have never heard of it affecting the order of dance though. It just may be that people graciously allow the moms, sisters and closest friends to have the first dances with the kallah.
I am so grateful to you for this post. So often I hear about the eis ratzon of days that have already past. This time I saw it in advance, and I even have off on Friday so I just have to daven that I remember this. Thank you and tizke l’mitzvos!!
APY – 🙂
I actually made 12 shidduchim and got 12 candy dishes which I was thrilled to use for my chulent dishes since I couldn’t afford china.
(now watch someone decide we are making fun of shadchanim and not ourselves – sigh)
I’m right with you on that, I feel like my life is a lot like that too sometimes. I am also very emotional in many ways so how fast or slow the day feels sometimes has a lot to do with what hurdles I have to climb before I go to bed that night.
Avram – excellent post. When I worked in a hospital, the mashgiach there told me the salad bar was no problem, but that was specifically because of the way things worked in THAT kitchen. I know someone in treif food service who told me that it will often happen that a waiter/cook will put salad on a plate with food and then remember the costumer ordered fries or chips and will then put the salad back into the bin. He said they will also use the same gloves when plating the sandwiches as the salad (which they do by the gloved handfuls in many places), even though the knives were separate.
Thank you! I do still have several kids in school (and 2 out) but I see what is starting to happen. In September it was forever until June. then it was summer vacation. Then September again. When I was pregnant it was forever until delivery. forever til they learned to talk. I think there were always these milestones hanging in front of me. Now there are many wonderful things to look forward to (bar mitzvahs, weddings) but they are more sporadic and I feel like the days in between are just days running into each other.
absolutely
I really believe making cholent is the husbands job. If a guy can’t make a decent cholent, he probably isn’t worth the shadchanus that was paid for roping him in.
golfer – lol, you must have peeked at my list!
WIY – why would you want to do that?
as someone way over the hill, I think life is flying but after much deliberation I have decided it comes from two things:
1) we no longer mark our years by grades in school or our kids grades in school so the months and days all seem to run into each other
2) we can look back on a huge lifetime of memories in a flash, giving the false impression that it happened/happens in a flash.
Really, when waiting for events to happen, I feel like it crawls just as slowly as ever.
🙂
about $5 more than I pay the shadchan
You’re right, you couldn’t have known. But your biting remarks indicated that you made assumptions. And I think that has been MY point all along.
I second that!
By the way, we do have more bugs now than there were in the recent past because there weren’t as many regulations on what pesticides were used.
Even though I have agreed with most of what you say (until this more hurtful post), I disagree with your attitude towards APY’s bitachon. My husband and I have lived our lives according to what needs to be done to give our children a bayis neeman, even when it meant turning down jobs and living on nothing until the one best for my family came around. Somehow Hashem has filled in all the gaps. If there is a shadchan out there who is willing to work with “someone like me”, then great, but from your description it sounds like that would be asking too much. So I can’t forgo the shadchan, but I can’t ask them to look for someone appropriate for our child. That leaves me no place to look but Up. And not by my choice.
If you are a shadchan who will not set up singles unless they fit specific criteria and pay certain fees, who do YOU believe the rest of us should go to?
syag:
curious, do you plan on having your friends cook the food for the wedding and holding in the back yard?
I’m just suggesting, it’s all a matter of priorites.
if it was me, i’d much faster skimp on the caterer band flowers hall etc,
but do whatever i could to give my child the best chance to find a shidduch.
but that’s just me….
AZ – ouch, that was very painful but I will answer anyway and suffer the embarrassment of those who know me. I’m glad you have the luxury of ‘setting priorities’ and giving your daughters that which some of us aren’t so fortunate to afford. I didn’t have flowers or alcohol because I couldn’t afford them. Do you want to know what else I couldn’t afford? a photographer. So I asked a relative who was a retired photographer for a favor. I had buffet because we paid less waiters that way, I couldn’t afford a full staff. Want to know what else I lived without because I couldn’t afford it or are you willing to accept that some people just aren’t who you think they are? And my wedding was beautiful anyway. And I DO have priorities.
I don’t think any shadchan owes me or anyone else anything. But if you want to say their job is to work with singles, than they should be working with singles. If they are only planning on servicing a specific niche, than it is a business, and they should treat it as one. You can’t have it both ways.
And I sure hope you weren’t referring to me when you said I treat them like dirt and want them at my beck and call, I said nothing of the sort.
Golfer, I guess you win, I don’t own a shaitel 🙁
Goq, how ’bout Challah baking?
I get dizzy, so I am getting off at this stop.
lol
I just thought of a related question – if you are a shadchan and you have an idea for a shidduch, but they tell you they cannot afford a shadchan and will need to go through common friends/relatives instead, will you withold the names from that couple? If you won’t be fully involved and receiving full time shadchanus, will you still give them the names so that they can try to pursue it themselves?
***This is assuming there is NO detriment to your reputation and you will still get credit for the couple (with an appropriate affordable gift).
AZ – I guess it is apples and oranges then. We have gone months without appropriate teachers when a vacancy came up and different substitutes would fill in as needed.
When my daughter went oot to the tri state area for a chasuna, she was given a list of more than plenty shadchanim to get interviewed by. We have several local ones as well. I never thought of there being a shortage.
I have found though, and this may be a completely tangential topic, that many of the shadchanim are “not interested” in helping you if you don’t want to do things the way “everyone else” is doing them. Meaning, if you can’t afford to give monthly support and are looking for someone like minded, some shadchanim aren’t interested in helping you find your bashert. There are many different kinds of people out there and the shadchanim should be willing to make matches of all these types (unless they are in a highly homogenous area) if their goal is to help singles, shouldn’t they? But we have had shadchanim literally screaming at some girls for being who they are instead of “playing the game” as it was put. I DO agree that that is the road for some, but there are so many like minded people who need something else, still well within the yeshivish-ish crowd, and I wonder why they don’t deserve advocates as well.
For myself, I don’t buy things that I can’t pay for, and if you tell me it will cost me $3000 for a shadchan, I will have no choice but to resort to word of mouth to marry off my children, not because I don’t value the shadchan, but because I apparently am not worthy of the privilege.
I do believe that your respectful and clear responses on this thread have given people a better sense that there are decent people out there who really are in it for the klal. Thank you for that.
AZ – Your comparison does not really make sense. There are huge shortages of good rebbes and morahs, the fact that people are willing to stand in front of a classroom and teach instead of working elsewhere is no raya that they are compensated better. Perhaps they are unqualified for anything else and nobody else will hire them. Or perhaps they too believe that lack of funds is not a reason to leave a field
Also, I was not aware that there is a shortage of shadchanim by any means, so maybe there are cultural differences at play.
The financial compensation, quality of life etc package that goes along with being a rebbe where I live is not far superior to anything. And I know, because I distribute food to many, many rebbes but few, if any, of the shadchanim. ($17k is a lot more than you seem to realize)
And as far as the shadchan who makes 6/7 shidduchim a year being simply unable to have any kind of employment, I will take your word for it that that is your experience, but with all due respect, I don’t buy it. Knowing how much face and phone time some of us in the other community service areas put in, it’s grueling and physically and emotionally draining, but we work jobs and take care of families.
I still agree with you that it is hard and misunderstood, but I think that if it is going to stand on a pedastal, there are many other “jobs” that pay little to nothing that will stand along side them.
and as an aside, I worked full time as a stay at home mom for 15 years and was sorely underappreciated, undercompensated and surely underfed. It didn’t pay our bills but it was important to me 🙂
AZ – I do agree with you, but that wasn’t really the point I was making. I was trying to explain that if anyone feels under appreciated it may not be because they are, it may just be their misinterpretation of people’ intentions.
Either way, regarding your comment, “it simply isn’t enough to enable shadchanim to stay in the field.”
I don’t know a single Rebbe or Morah who is making enough at their job to make ends meet. While I would like to fix that, I personally don’t believe lack of funds is a reason to leave a field. It just depends on what you are willing to live with (or without).
I was taught that neshamos are learning in shomayim. I was also taught that those who were osek in the community are able to “keep watch” over the community, and those who were osek in the well being of their families are able to “keep watch” over their families. Obviously I don’t know what that really means, and I have to assume there are others who teach differently, but for my self this was very comforting information. It helps me believe that my parents and sisters are able to daven for me and my family down here.
AZ – another well written post, thank you.
To add, not argue your last point, I don’t believe that shadchanim are under compensated because of what you stated (under appreciation etc) I can’t speak for anyone outside of my own experience (though many feel free to do so) but I think that many of us do not believe we are under compensating. I think that for so many of us who do NOT promise thousands to the couple, and do NOT make weddings for tens of thousands of dollars, we believe with all our hearts that a thousand dollars, which is a treasure in our eyes, is something HUGE to give someone. So is $500. If halacha allows it, but you feel it isn’t enough to make a shadchan feel worthwhile, I am sad for them. Truly. Many of us do community work that requires at least as much time and trouble, but if someone handed me $1000 for something I did for them, I would be overjoyed at my good fortune, I would not feel under compensated.
And trust me, with the work I do dealing with people who are hungry, I get how much time is involved, but I would never make it your responsibility to pay my bills.
I’m hoping this gives you another viewpoint, we do appreciate, we just have different views on what we need to feel well compensated.
So it may be the low end of the range, but I would NEVER think of it as under compensating, because to many of us it is a fortune.
…an amusement park. You spend a lot of time waiting in lines and then it’s over in a second.
interjection – so well said!
AZ – I think the jist your last post was excellent. I also think you beautifully stated the misunderstanding without realizing it. When you said that the sense of the thread was that paying the shadchan was an afterthought, I disagree wholeheartedly. Paying the shadchan is a halachic obligation and is necessary. The difficulty (some) posters were having was the attitudes of SOME of the shadchanim toward that process. Not paying the shadchan, the attitudes of SOME shadchanim regarding that process.
I would think that the potential parnassah of 56k-80k would be about right to encourage more talented people to join/stay in the field.
You have GOT to be kidding!
the community loses out when talented/capable shadchanim leave the field.
Because Hashem will have all these awesome zivugim and no way to facilitate them?