Forum Replies Created
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Posts
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HaLeiVi – I’m surprised. It seemed pretty obvious to me.
sam2 – or close them both
DY – your last two posts are filled with statements based on what you know the OP meant. interesting.
secularFrummy – That wasn’t what he said. He was talking about whether or not that is where you are at and if it is something you would or would not do in front of your kids or let them know about. For example, if you are someone who would never let your kids know that you are going to movie theaters, than you probably shouldn’t go. If it isn’t something you would have a problem sharing with your kids, than fine. His point was NOT to determine halacha based on those feelings, he was saying that if you are trying to raise your kids a certain way (or students etc) but are not living those rules, than the message does not pass as effectively. It’s like that “do as I say not as I do” rule which doesn’t really work.
ruthb – if your point in bringing this up was controversy or machlokes, I hope you will reconsider next time.
interjection – I agree. Except the part about that being how the ladies danced on tu ba’av. I would highly doubt people in those times would do those moves in public. I can barely watch it these days when it’s everywhere.
FTR, the OP didn’t whine until getting bashed from all sides for simply expressing a desire to get paid what is owed al pi din.
FTR, the whining started in the OP and his second post. The displeasure with his/their bad attitude was in response to it. And although you still would rather not believe it, the complaints were not about his “simply expressing a desire to get paid what is owed al pi din” it was his attitude and portrayal that shadchanim are free to look down on people.
Is that what you want, fewer shadchanim?
I understand what you meant by that, but to even ask such a question, as if you are threatening that we will have less zivugim without them, speaks for itself. Though shadchanim work excessively on facilitating shidduchim, I believe it to be a tremendous lack of understanding of Hashem’s abilities to think that He cannot make zivugim without them.
I don’t think there is any way to make this understood by those who aren’t interested in understanding-
nobody is saying we shouldn’t have shadchanim or that they shouldn’t be paid according to halacha. The comments are VERY CLEARLY in regard to shadchanim who whine and display poor middos, thinking that they can look down their noses at those who THEY PERCEIVE to have slighted them. IF YOU ARE NOT SOMEONE WHO DOES THAT, THEN WE WEREN’T TALKING ABOUT YOU!!!
I thought we agreed to keep this between us. You really ARE horrible.
Al pi shuras hadin, a rich person can also choose to give the lower end of the range.
not without the shadchan having a hissy fit 😛
Logician – thank you. I read your posts to be contradictory but I hear you saying they aren’t and fully accept that. I cannot retract my comment that you have posted more than once though, you posted once on the first page and once on this one (before my post) 🙂
I now see that my confusion came from your comment “x2 to frimet”, which I took to mean you agreed with her (I thought you meant +2), but now I am assuming you were referring to the beginning of your post.
apushatayid – good for you! Was your rav saying that halacha actually dictates that you can use your financial state to make your choice within the range? I guess it isn’t irrelevant after all.
Logician – thank you for your kind words. I may be incapable of carrying out a conversation but at least I can count.
DY – Oh my gosh! How bout this – I have no idea what you are talking about, I have only said, using every permutation of the alphabet that you misunderstood me and you just can’t let it go. Why is it so important to you to make me look stupid, and thank you for supporting those who joined in. Do you do this to people in person as well? When you believe strongly that they said something and they tell you that that is not what they were saying and they re-explain, do you just keep at them until they make something up, or feel like idiots? I don’t get what your point is. And, for illustrative purposes (though I am just opening myself up to more nit picking)
THIS – The feeling that one is entitled to be paid for hard work, when halachically owed . . . is quite natural and does not reflect bad middos. DOES NOT equal THIS The shadchan may deserve to be paid, but she does not deserve to want MORE THAN HALACHA DICTATES. She has no business telling me that my payment AS DETERMINED BY HALACHA wasn’t good enough. And if you can’t see that, than please just let it be!
DY – and of course the first person I would want to use to find me my bashert, middos and all, is someone who displays such a shining example. That goes for the attitude of many of the shadchanim represented here. B”H in the real world (out of town) things seem to run differently. And no, we don’t give candy dishes here either. But I bet if the rav okayed it, the shadchan would say thank you and mean it.
Logician – thank you for not responding, I probably wouldn’t have answered you. Your stance has changed with each post so it wasn’t worth pursuing. My thoughts haven’t changed from my first post. If you, or anyone else didn’t understand it as I meant it, so be it. I clarified what I meant. That’s why people have conversations instead of submitting essays, dissertations and monologues.
These are the data that I have gathered from this discussion:
1. Halacha requires that a shadchan be paid for the service s/he did for the couple and their families.
2. The amount of money to be paid is set by the normal rate in the given community.
3. You or your relative thinks the going rate is $2000.
4. You or your relative is ticked off because s/he commonly receives much less than that amount.
From my perspective, the problem isn’t necessarily that the community is not upholding the halacha, but that your relative has a skewed impression of what the going rate should be. After all, it’s set by the statistics of the people paying, not by what the shadchan thinks it should be. In other words, if 10 people pay $200 and 1 person pays $2000, the going rate goes with the 10, not the 1, irregardless if the 1 high payer is less wealthy than the 10, and also irregardless perhaps of what is paid for other wedding expenses such as flowers or food. A florist is probably paid more than a plumber, even though the latter’s work is more vital.
Avram – so beautifully expressed. And probably much easier to understand than my version(s)
DY – I have a better idea, how bout you retract your misinterpretation of what I really said and then we’ll all be good 🙂
popa – yes to your first two paragraphs. Thank you for understanding what I thought I said several times.
apushatayid – YES!!! especially this:
One must also consult with a halachic authority before unilaterally deciding to malign a whole bunch of people because their personal whim calls for $2500 and they only got $750 or a candy dish.
I have no problem putting a number to it philosophically and I didn’t say the shadchan didnt deserve it. I said I dont like the idea that posters here decided that if I pay an amount given to me by a rav, but it isn’t the price you think you are worth, than I didn’t fulfill my obligation.
(read that twice before continuing)
The shadchan may deserve to be paid, but she does not deserve to want MORE THAN HALACHA DICTATES. She has no business telling me that my payment AS DETERMINED BY HALACHA wasn’t good enough.
You didn’t say $1000. You kept telling me that when I said I dont want to pay $1000, I am going against halacha, not making Hashem happy, not following the Shulhan Aruch etc s I was answering your comments directed toward me specifically, not your comments on the subject.
I am commenting on your pre determined amount of $1000, not on making a payment. Read it again with that in mind and you will see where I never said not to make payments.
And Halacha does not say that being a shadchan is a job, the ‘meaningful’ way you speak of is you knowing I am correct but wanting to split hairs. 😛
why do you assume he does anything else?
DY – You seem to answer me many times based on what you assumed I said, but not what I said. I said we have to pay what Hashem asks, not what people in the tri state area decide. You then tell me I can’t decide not to pay. I never said that. The word chessed does not mean “free of charge”. I said (several times) that OF COURSE you pay, but the payment should be based on halacha and NOT on what you and your group of friends decided for me.
Right, it’s a halachik issue and not dependent on personal whim. That is exactly why I don’t have to give an amount that some sub culture decided on their own is THE rate but rather what the halacha dictates.
Logician, with all due respect that is really blowing up and twisting things a bit.
I actually was thinking as I read this and heard that you require $1000 from someone who doesn’t have it for doing chessed, that makes me wonder why I would want to be part of the yeshivish community at all! If Hashem is happy with a “gift”, how dare you act like $100 is an insult! You have turned this Holy work into a business and are upset that your attitude is turning stomaches. It isn’t halacha we are arguing with, Ch”V, it is your somewhat skewed interpretation of it.
DY – I wasn’t “taking it out on shadchanim”, I was answering a bunch of posts on a shadchan thread that discussed shadchanim feeling/being entitled. it even lists how offensive it is when someone gives a shadchan ‘stuff’ instead of money, or gives them only $100, unless it’s a BT which would make it okay.
Does that answer your question?
DY – regarding your next post, there is a HUGE difference between someone thinking of two people to match up, and someone selling merchandise that requires materials, advertising, shipping, packaging, inventory, rent, utilities . . .shall I continue. There is literally no comparison where you are trying to make one. Maybe take a deep breath.
Hooray for besalel!
DY – of course I NEED to pay something. But that is very different than you thinking you are ENTITLED to money that I don’t have. I can give whatever halacha dictates will fulfill that obligation. And you will say, “Thank you”.
apashutayid – your analogy is more perpendicular than parallel. sorry.
Some of you are so used to crazy that it almost sounds normal.
DY – I have know clue what you are talking about
HaKatan – just curious, do you ever talk about anything else besides your views of zionism? Are you like this at the dinner table? Do you hate most things in general, or just this?
I have to agree with oomis. I also agree with frimet.
I don’t think a person can consider being a shadchan as being a job. We have an obligation as Jews to facilitate marriages and if you know of a good shidduch idea, I don’t think you are entitled to decide to withhold it pending a good price. It is NOT like a profession, where you would have the option to not take on the job.
As far as finding $1000 or not giving a candy dish or paying $1100 instead of $10000, I think some people may have a lot to learn about other people’s lives and struggles. If I can’t find $5 for my kids class gift to someone, how can you tell me I NEED to come up with that kind of money.
To me, $50 is a fortune, if I “found” you $100 you should know I missed out elsewhere. What a crazy concept that facilitating a marriage that was ordained by Hashem himself ENTITLES you to money I need to feed my kids.
sorry
My brother lives and breathes Rav Wolfson. I only wish he didn’t have internet. Not that he does anything he shouldn’t, but he lives alone and it’s not recommended.
Welcome back Health, hope you are recovering!
It is absolutely true that the cancerous body can shut down and stop processing intake even with working kidneys, but it is not a given, and each patient has to be assessed. But I have been told explicitly that a DNR can only be signed after speaking to a rav, it is not always permissible to “let someone go”. That being said, I would absolutely give dialysis since the reverse means allowing poisons to accumulate. There are times when halacha will dictate that these things are permissible, but it probably won’t be based on whether or not the patient is conscious or unconscious, or whether or not it was their wishes. I’m fairly certain it is about what will be accomplished medically, and sometimes nothing will.
I would not question takamamash or take her to task, this is NOT about her choices or her parents, this is in answer to the generality and standard-case-scenario statements.
Then I agitated it
seems the parsley and I have a lot in common
I really think that most of the posters are 16-28 with many who are not
Oooh, Goq! That sounds so yummy. I made a quadruple batch of chocolate chip cookies today (which I DID have chocolate chips for) but I don’t like the texture. Fortunately I am alone in that, they are disappearing anyway.
We did that too but not on tisha b’av. They now have bus tours every tisha b’av that go there.
I was born the year my parents moved into a house after leaving the “Old West Side”
It really depends on how it’s said. Calling someone blondie, because you don’t know their name, isn’t derogatory, but when you roll your eyes and say, “she is so blonde” it sure aint nice.
DY – I think that if that was what Sam meant, he would have worded it differently.
Sam2 – not really used to that type of sharpness from you but you obviously haven’t had the zchus to watch 4 family members die so I’ll just answer anyway. Many people at that stage of life are not capable of drinking tap water, if they don’t have an IV inserted and saline administered, they can die.
Yes, they miss more than 17 days, and their calander is about 20 days longer.
Sam2 – the water is NOT available. The protocol in MANY hospice programs is just pain meds. NO food, NO water. They believe that feeding the body is the equivalent of prolonging death. This is how it works and if you are not careful, you will even sign consent forms that say that no life saving measures will take place, and THEY interpret life saving measures as food and drink. Sorry if you don’t WANT to know, but this is the reality. This is NOT just how it worked out for a select few.
my daughter just did a segway tour which she booked in advance online. It was a lot cheaper than they are here in the states, like $50 for two hours.
ketchup
what’s for dinner
headache
fever
motrin
flu
fever
headache
carpool
headache
motrin
chills
chilly
snow
AGAIN!
crop circles – google them. I couldn’t do them justice.
thanks.
And you sound like a wonderful mother, they are certainly lucky to have someone so loving, caring and conscientious overseeing them!
I doubt you need food grade ink for paper. Even inside cookies it still won’t get on them.
here it goes again . . .
I am pretty sure they have an optional trip to Eretz Yisroel.