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popa you’re acting like a total bozo, blinded by prejudices. Nobody said not to return keys. Anyone who recommended not knocking on the door gave other ways to make sure the keys are returned. If you want to hock about people being overly cautious at least stick with the facts.
keymaster subtitle??? I’d be happy with any subtitle right now…well. almost
what’s with the parenthesis around your name?
phew, I’m clear
can you now?
*sniff*
my subtitle is goneanother night without interruptions from the coffeeroom. (sometimes the arguing wakes me)
why is the rest of this thread missing? helloooo?
“You aren’t pattur from mitzvos just because you’re frum. It’s a common misconception, but even frum people are chayav to keep the Torah. “
EXACTLY! That’s what I was ranting about above. NOBODY said not to keep the Torah but you don’t have to be lax in some mitzvos to keep other mitzvos. When people ARE saying that, rant away, but NOBODY HERE DID!!!!!!!! (those exclamation points are to attract ubiqs attention)
i must add, popa, that i was laughing a bit too loud reading some of those – while sitting in a parent meeting
what i started off saying before tangeting was that when a poster says “don’t do X by doing Y” we get people clamoring all over the “You are telling people not to do X?” bandwagon.
READ THE POST! Just cuz you have pet peeves about people being overchumradik (which i do as well WHEN IT APPLIES), doesn’t mean you read what you think you read!!!
see this is the part that gets really annoying. NOBODY said not to return the keys, NOBODY said to leave someone at a loss.
SOME people are pretty nasty toward others who try to do what is right (because they need to believe it isn’t what’s right? Then just say so like a mensch. Or maybe some people can’t handle the exchange with maturity and sensibility so they just go for nasty)
sorry, i digress –
I said i didn’t feel comfortable so i found another way. Now i’m being accused of being misguided and over chumradik. and even tho i wrote another post explaining that small exchanges DO make changes, you prefer to consider it a chumra. Fine, go ask your rav and follow accordingly. But you may not be right about it being machmir to find other ways instead.
I grew up in coed settings. we mocked all those people who said you have to stay separate. we rolled our eyes at all of these same issues, “ha ha, let his car battery die he may want to marry you if you approach him”. But do you want to be really honest? We mocked and commented on how each of us and our friends had tons of platonic relationships. We laughed at all these ‘chumras’ knowing that we each could fill a page with names of boys or girls we didn’t touch. But the HONEST truth is that very very few had a list that ONLY contained people they didn’t touch. Everyone with all these platonic relationships had at least one that wasn’t.
And as the decades have passed, many being raised in this same environment and school system are involved in much worse than we ever were. So yes, you can have a million platonic relationships with men or women throughout your lives, but when you are not thoughtful (and you can review the definition of that with your rav) about these exchanges, you will always run the risk of that one relationship that isn’t.
yesterday I noticed my male single parent neighbor left his lights on in his car. I did not feel comfortable knocking on his door so I asked my son to call him and let him know. if i didn’t have a son, and i was still sensitive about knocking, i have no doubt i would have found another option.
I work in a public school and keep my distance from the males as able. There are some men in the school who i have nothing at all to do with and we pass each other several times in a day without even a nod. one day I had to deliver a message to this teacher that his car was parked illegally (sent by the office since I was heading in his direction). Ever since that day he has always nodded or smiled when he passes, says hi or comments on the day.
Do I expect this to start a relationship, ch”v? No, I don’t. But the halachos are not built around me and that particular teacher. What if he was sharing my office and we sat near each other for hours a day and now the silence was broken? This is how people work and denying it is just silly.
I’m not sure when lakewhut was there last or knew someone there last but the above description is not quite accurate. True there are guys from all over but few from NY (who in this place would be OOT). True that the Rosh Yeshiva is indeed the central focus, but town is not a “difficult challenge to overcome” for the boys who are there now, things have changed over the years. And they strongly emphasize self awareness and introspection with an extra emphasis on spiritual growth (the kind that sticks).
If you want to be scared off by the clothing of the boys that go in instead of seeing who comes out (and some stay forever) that would be your choice/loss.
I don’t know what yeshivos the guys come from but I do know that my son is very happy there. They have a very specific style and have a strong emphasis on growth. They have had problems in the past with a reputation for drugs and many people think of that when they hear the name but that is not so.
The boys come as they are, committed to being there, committed to growth but not all in the same place. This yeshiva focuses on genuine Torah, not walking the walk. My son commented on how many of the first year boys have phones or wear less “in the box” clothes but by second year have changed to more mainstream looks because of their own growth and choices. It’s a very powerful thing but not for everyone.
Many boys who go move on to other places but some are there to stay. There are about 250 people from beginning through kollel and they are very committed.
The boys are drawn to the Rosh Yeshiva who is a very special and unique individual. They meet regularly with a mashgiach about their personal goals and growth and they are supported in ways you have to see to believe. Not just by the Rosh but other staff as well.
The genuine growth and learning is very inspiring to those who experience it, they have a very unique view of those who produce cookie cutter boys and the need to have a personal relationship with Hashem. I am not talking about a “Love Gd in your own way” or “do your own thing” approach. I mean they keep tabs on their insides as well as their outsides in ways that I have not really seen in other places.
We had a local “sofer” who stole parshios and put garbage back, talked non frum people into buying new tefillin and then keeping their old tefillin, checking mezuzos and returning other mezuzos and cases but claiming he didn’t.
Instead of putting his name up they made him leave town. I don’t know if stopping his scam was included in the deal. Maybe someone in lakewood could tell me.
zdad – it’s an awful book and just because people know of it doesn’t mean we liked it. on its own, it explains the rebbe’s method of making sure that his son, who is obviously heading off the path, sticks to the Torah in some manner. the problem with the book, from what i understand, was the author’s view of chassidus and the Torah way.
and this line “(Its actally is quite positive towards the frum community)” is just sad and twisted. I have always assumed you were educated in and raised in a more modern/less yeshivish derech and i assumed are living the life you grew up in. and that you have experienced tremendous chillul Hashem behavior from people who seem to misread some of your presentation as an attack on Torah instead of on what you were brought up to believe is a distortion of Torah (and sometimes is). but to say that it is positive that we like a book that is anti religion is dangerously confusing the difference between accepting PEOPLE who put down frum lifestyle, and accepting their views. and if they speak against Torah, you are actually obligated to hate them. Unfortunately we are better at the hate part then at the explaining what we hate and worrying about how it appears to others who are not familiar with either the halacha or the person’s deeds.
I know you say it doesn’t bother you, but bulldozing someone who is defending what they were taught without educating them is just a way of preserving their poor perception of some of jews way of life.
if you follow the context of the conversation you would know that that comment (put down) is out of place.
what confuses me is the idea that people scoop the middle and eat the outside. If i was going to eat only one of the two, it would be the middle.
ubiq- i get that you (both) enjoy this back and forth and i can barely read it all, let alone comment on the content but please allow me a comment –
firstly, this particular set of utterances:
Your problem is that your Idol Obama couldn’t say Islam and terrorist together” followed by “It’s not saying them together, it’s showing the terrorists that we’ll do anything to prevent your ideology”
really does make sense in terms of what it means and how that whole topic went down with obama. it is just not something obama supporters/trump oposers would understand/agree to/admit.
which kind of brings me to my next point that even though you two are experiencing an exaggerated level of this next point, i really have found this :
I dont think I’m going to convince him, i just find it fascinating when people are proven wrong and instead of retracting double down
to be true regarding obama and hilary supporters as well. I am not a trump supporter, but i am an obama/clinton opposer and i find myself reacting with exactly that thought when i hear sane, respected posters defend them in the face of what is so obvious to me and others. I don’t expect you to agree, or even see it, but you may not want to laugh quite so hard or think of yourself or your friends as quite as exempt from such behavior.
Lastly, regarding that math thread, it is funny to me to see that other perspective. when you say that something “has been explained”, what criterion are you using to expect i should assume something is true because someone explained it. I would need to check into it to find out if their “100% ironclad” opinion really is so. and sometimes its not.
just some things rolling around in my head while reading your post. I thought of your “arguments” with health as something between the two of you (albiet in public), but when i heard your “take” on it, it jarred me. sounded more demeaning than fun between two people.
i could be wrong.
not really twisted. you werent answering Joseph who gives out limitless purim wine, you were addressing wolf who said he lets them have wine at kiddush. i actually had the exact same thought as Avrum.
thank you avram
you definitely got the wrong address for your response. nothing i said rebuts that children will be children in their behavior… but what’s your excuse?
cute. in your zrizus to put me down you seem to have mistaken arguing for being melamed zchus. And bmyer wasn’t addressing the topic at all, he was sarcastically pointing out that TLIK’s statement was somewhat silly, in a sense. So really TLIK had some serious heartfelt concerns that could have been addressed instead of cheering on the people who put him down for it. And argued points he wasn’t even making to boot. But thanks for your ongoing effort to keep me isolated. it hasn’t gone unnoticed.
The little I know, I agree with you wholeheartedly. When I read these threads and imagine those boys as my grandchildren it only reinforces my gratitude for living in a Torah community that teaches exactly what you speak of (and we don’t witness so many of such things complained about here, B”H) and pushing for shidduchim who understand the detriment to the chinuch of children growing up in environments with these (and other) types of distortions.
Whether or not Joseph wants to see the light – all the fresh milk in the world will not make the spoonful of sour milk added stay fresh. sorry.
I was telling you about my past to let you know the concept has been around forever and that it is individuals, not everyone. I have several children in that age group and have been in the situation you write of, checking out people who have changed or grew up differently. I get it, but if that is all you are bumping up against you may want to stay away from NY shidduchim where those “criterea” seem to be more black and white (and I don’t mean clothing). But, like I said, it will depend on you yourself. I have a close friend who has come miles from where he was at and is very learned and fine but still hangs on to some very demeaning views of rabbanim and certain institutions. In my opinion it is very unhealthy for his children to grow up hearing/witnessing that. So it isn’t just where you are at, but what you have retained inside and what you have left behind. Someone who knows you will see what is there.
Bachur 2.0 PLEASE PLEASE do not give up or give in. This may just be a last leg of a nisayon. To test yourself to see if you have really closed that door (for your own knowledge, not for others)
You are so right about how qualitative your emunah may be, people who go thru difficult times and turn to Hashem have so much growth and emunah under their belt that so many others don’t have.
I obviously don’t know you but I want you to know (as a mom of both girls and boys) that there are MANY people out there who will be willing to look your way. Even girls without a past. But there are people who are not willing to, and they are not for you. Be grateful for the natural selection process!!! It will save you money from having to go out with everyone and learning later they don’t want you.
In terms of shidduchim I also had a “past” because I grew up modern and went to coed camps and schools. I had the same experiences as you in who would consider me and who wouldn’t. But I learned a few things about the view points over the last 26 years. I see the drawback of marrying someone with a “past” WITHOUT knowing how connected they remain to old habits, and I also see that my husband, who is a baal tshuva, was so much more growth oriented than so many of the FFB men I had dated.
So DON’T take it personally!! Keep davening!! Keep growing!! and know how much Gd loves you for all you have done for him. You sound like a true eved Hashem and you will find the right one at the right time and hopefully not a moment earlier.
the thread isn’t disturbing, it was disturbing me. And you seem to have misunderstood the upset. There is nothing wrong with being careful, even vigilant in your kashrus and carefully guarding what you eat and where it comes from. But that has nothing to do with giving and receiving mishloach manos, only with eating it.
and thank you for your respectful tone.
meno – i dont know if it was you or not but i do know someone who received a challah board with a gift card in it FOR the giver. I know of someone else who passed on a challah board and knife set without realizing their name had been engraved on the knife.
no meno, and frankly neither should anyone else
(where is my nausea emoji?)
golfer i must be closer to your age – i have those same memories!
Mammele – i was thinking about that, too, but then it got me thinking about the days when everyone brought their families challas and cholent to the communal oven at the local bakery. Ya know what i’m referring to?
it is disturbing because that is hardly how the issue was presented and i dont appreciate you ‘attacking me’.
Thank you Meno, I was starting to find this thread really disturbing. To think some communities have reached a point where people don’t want other people’s home baked goods and people have to buy things whether they can afford it or not because they need to worry about who trusts them…
Meno you are so right, send what works for you, and let your friends accept it lovingly and make their own decisions.
B”H I receive boxes and boxes of people’s mishloach manot after purim to redistribute and there are still plenty of people sending homebaked goods. Having to prepare and give mishloach manot with the underlying concern that people don’t trust your kashrus is about as ironic as it gets for anyone who understands why this mitzvah exists.
lol – even? You have a very skewed but unfortunately inaccurate understanding of halacha. And I am not learned enough, B”H, to question if it falls into the realm of apikorsus, but it is certainly a dangerous impression to give to the less informed posters.
calling me a troll is exactly the degrading diversionary motzei shem ra I have come to expect from you. You should know I will never be moichel you for calling me that and no matter how hard you try to convince yourself or let others convince you that halacha is on your side you are wrong. I am not moichel.
“That is when I learned that crying is the way to get what you want, but it usually doesn’t occur to me to cry in front of other people. “
<stunned>
do you realize that this comment is stating that you learned how to manipulate people? Any parent concerned with their child’s chinuch will teach them that you do NOT cry to get your way, and you do not get your way by crying. I cannot fathom why you would want to admit something like this in public forum. And please don’t say you were just kidding- this exact behavior (getting emotional when things don’t go your way) is what a handful of posters had called you out on and you vehemently denied it but now your are saying it as a mere fact.
If you are unaware how this behavior is not okay you may want to work on it. If you aren’t ready to work on it, it may be in your best interest not to state it online. Obviously with your best interests only. Anyone else who understands what this means is not going to think highly of this behavior so you may want to rethink your view on doing it. For your own sake, of course and your own personal growth.
as opposed to the way people here express themselves. nothing like missing the point twice
benignuman – bravo. thank you for the first accurate, appropriately stated response to that post. May Hashem continue to bless you with clarity, kindness and understanding.
Avram that has got to be the world’s best line. where is that awards thread??
i don’t understand the teams so well, i know i once supported a statement (or a person who made a statement) and for the next three years i had certain posters making all sorts of assumptions about my life.
all i can say is, if there are teams, i pick blue.
<speechless>
he says it is gloomy. and somewhat desolate.
i wish the Mrs. was well enough to host him even you didn’t 🙂
i had thought about how much he would enjoy your grounds and figured it was too bad i didn’t have your name. i also thought it was too bad you didn’t have his 🙂
thanks for the thoughts…
well i have a son there presently and i can’t say it is without some anxiety. but he is in new haven, not waterbury
LB – there are many who say that it is not ‘good timing’ to give a person a talk about emunah while they are in the midst of their suffering. The veteran’s help line would be a great suggestion tho.
as someone with very many year’s experience working with TBI and PTSD i personally would recommend cutting a bit more slack on the memory/reporting/consistency issue. the simple fact that this happened halfway (?) into a marriage may explain some of the issues and compassion for both sides may be required here.
that being said, Lenny, I would love to see you get the help and support you need and this wife doesn’t seem to be the person who can help you with that at this time.
Hashem should give you strength.
new haven…now that’s a little town with some big baggage….
yfr – well let me know if he gets hungry, i’ll send him some food with my sons
I don’t consider my suburban home to be in the desert, rather an oasis.
Thank you, and I couldn’t agree more. That was a pretty rude (close minded? self absorbed?) comment
haha, cute sense of humor. and once again you avoid contemplating making a mistake by focusing on my words instead. Seems I keep falling for it, silly me.
To anyone out there who forgot (according to someone who is actually in position to pasken) you should not feel so lowly. there are many legitimate situations that can come up or there wouldn’t be halacjos about how to handle it. just do your best and know Hashem knows what is in your heart.
thanks for the laugh joe.
of course i read it (my reading comprehension is somewhere around 96%), that was the impetus for the comment. there are many ways to “forget” without being a single women who hasn’t been lighting, or someone with alzheimers. if you would have asked, you might have gotten some feedback.