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Wolfish Musings is pleased to report that, despite Volvie’s opinions, he did not get drunk this Purim (in fact, due to other obligations he had, he didn’t drink at all) and did not give alcohol to any minors (or anyone else, for that matter).
The Wolf
Wolf: I think that was a “Purim Vort”
That’s okay. I had no real intention of “handing in my membership card” just because my lack of drunkenness didn’t meet with his approval. 🙂
The Wolf
and one who withholds from fulfilling the mitzvah because he doesn’t understand the mitzvah has no part in [Klal] Yisroel, and in the acceptance of the yoke of the words of our holy Rabbis”.
Then, since I’ve never been drunk in my life, I guess I have no part in Klal Yisroel.
Where do I turn in my membership card?
The Wolf
Volvie,
Fine. But you have to understand that there are other legitimate shittos. And it’s not your job to see to it that a minor follows YOUR shitta.
Keep in mind, that according to you, I guess, I’ve never fulfilled the mitzvah since I’ve never been drunk in my life.
And I plan to go on that way.
The Wolf
Sorry… I disagree. Even if I would give alcohol to minors, I would NEVER do so without parental permission.
The Wolf
Even if it’s legal to give a kid alcohol, you should not provide it to minors without their parent’s permission. This is not a legal point, but a common-courtesy parenting point.
Even addressing volvie’s point — it’s not YOUR responsibility to ensure that the boys are m’kayim Ad D’lo Yada.
The Wolf
Read. My kids are all voracious readers.
Play games. I’m talking about deep strategy German-style board games like Settlers of Catan, Caylus, Power Grid, etc.
Photography. My daughter seems to have picked up my shutterbug habit.
The Wolf
it depends on how old and mature they are. If they are young, then they are safer being connected to someone who knows them and can guide them in a Torahdik way. Usually, this is how it works, even if the parents agree, that the boy or girl discuss a shidduch that they are serious about with a Torahdik person,
One could argue that if they aren’t old and mature enough to know what they want in a potential spouse, then perhaps they aren’t ready to be married at all.
The only point that I am suggesting is that before a person redts a shidduch to a young, immature, and temimusdik boy or girl without parental approval or consent, to realize that this is a heavy achrayus – the shadchan, friends, etc. walk away from it after the chuppah, but the ones left coping with the outcome of the decsions are the chosson or kallah themselves, and parents.
One could argue that you should not be redting shidduchim to “young, immature” boys or girls who, due to their youth and immaturity, cannot or will not accept responsibility for their own decisions. If the answer to a young divorce is “it’s the shadchan’s fault” then perhaps the single in question is just not ready for marriage.
Shadchannim can make recommendations, but they ultimately are not responsible for what happens. If a person is too immature to get married, then they should not go to a shadchan or should just say no if one approaches them. No shadchan forces a person to date and no shadchan forces a person down the aisle.
And lastly, once the wedding happens, the shadchan’s job is over — s/he is NOT a marriage counselor.
The Wolf
Is it just me
To be perfectly fair and honest, I did not catch the distinction. Nor do I believe that the poster intended something by it.
The Wolf
Please be a little more specific. What info would you like?
The Wolf (whose sister, wife and daughter are all Sternberg alum)
For this reason, I stand by what I said, that this question is very complicated, and Das Torah should be consulted because of the individuality of every situation, calling for individual responses.
Ir, perhaps you can clarify your position for me, because I’m a bit confused. Are you suggesting that a person must consult (and follow) “Da’as Torah” for every shidduch that they are redt? Are you saying that they have to consult a rav before saying “yes” or “no” to a date?
If that’s the case, then I must severely disagree with you. I believe that no one knows a single (and what he or she wants) better than themselves. Not the parents and surely not the family rav or a gadol (or whomever qualifies as “Da’as Torah” for you). Can they advise and guide? Surely, and I think that their input can be valuable. But to decide for the single? No — a million times no!
The Wolf
Frederick C. Wood was executed by electric chair in Sing Sing prison in 1963. As he entered the death house, he turned to the reporters and quipped: “I have a speech to make on an educational project. You will see the effect of electricity on Wood.”
I have a book at home named Grave Matters. The book contains all sorts of tombstone inscriptions, some of which involve wordplay. For example:
Here lies Les Moore
Shot twice with a .44
No Les
No Moore
The Wolf
and Rabbonim will advise on the side of the kids
A “kid” does need to go to a rav to say no to a date.
The Wolf
Why do people think that swaying their arms back and forth could change the direction of a bowling ball?
Well, it can before you release the ball. 🙂
At a concert which arm rest is yours? the left? the right? …Both?
Whatever you and your seatmate decide.
Did Noach have woodpeckers on the Teivah? If he did, where did he keep them?
Probably yes. You might ask the same question about termites. If God could stop the predators from feasting on their prey for the duration of the flood, He could certainly prevent the woodpeckers from pecking the wood.
Do bald people get Dandruff?
Only if they have dry scalps.
Why can’t donuts be square?
They can. It’s just much easier to make them round.
What do Greeks say when they don’t understand something?
They probably say “I don’t understand” in Greek. (Perhaps they say “It’s all Latin to me?”)
Is there ever a day that mattresses are not on sale?
Nope.
The Wolf
Ir,
You misinterpreted what I said. I didn’t say to completely ignore the parents. Certainly a young single should consider his/her parents’ advice in these matters. But s/he is NOT bound to them. In fact, the halacha in this area is pretty clear — if you father tells you to marry someone whom you do not want to, you DO NOT have to obey him.
The same applies here. It would be great if the single and the parents could come up with a single set of criteria for a spouse. But if, in the end, they cannot or will not agree, and the shadchan has to go with one over the other, then the shadchan MUST go according to the wishes of the single. To say otherwise would be to say that the single must date (and possibly) marry someone they don’t want.
The Wolf
i am sorry to inform u people that doctor offices are not open all day.
That’s why I added “where possible.” If a child has a need of a specific therapist and the ONLY time available is during yeshiva hours, then perhaps an accomodation needs to be made. But that’s not the situation as the OP presented it.
The Wolf
It’s not discrimination. It’s a reasonable request. Assuming the yeshiva doesn’t run six days a week from 7AM – 9PM, the parents *should* schedule the therapy for a time outside of the yeshiva hours (where possible).
The Wolf
How is a single or their parents supposed to try and find a Shidduch if a Shaddchan calls a parent and the parent says that the single is looking for something else than what the single really wants?
I don’t see what the problem is. If the parent tells you one thing and the single tells you another, I feel that you, as the shadchan, have two options:
1. Tell the parents and the child to come up with one set of criteria that they can both agree on (preferred option).
2. Ignore the parents and focus on what the single wants.
Why ignore the parents? Because ultimately, it’s the single who is getting married and has to live with the decision for the rest of his/her life, not the parents. Again, I’m not saying that parents should be disregarded in a shidduch situation, but, when push comes to shove, if the two cannot (or will not) agree, then you have to go with the single’s preferences.
The Wolf
GAW, I generally do, but sometimes they “discover” they have a report due the next day at 10 pm the night before.
I don’t let my kids pull that shtick. If they tell me at 10PM that they have a report due the next day and need to begin working on it, I have only response — “good night.”
The Wolf
Wow… something we all seemingly agree on! I haven’t seen one person that supports the right of the institution to deduct the 10%.
The Wolf
what about distant cousins?
Well, we’re all distant cousins with one another….
Seriously, you’ll get some replies that say yes and some that say no.
The Wolf
Thank you, sir… and have a Good Shabbos.
I would like it stated, just for the record, that my post above was NOT referring to my blog. There is something more fundamentally Jewish about me contained in the words “Wolfish Musings.”
I can understand why the moderator thought it meant my blog…
Please put this post up to set the record straight.
The Wolf
EDITED
Velvishe Machshavos
why dont we all just use the most Yiddishe thing in our life as our screen names
Some of us do.
The Wolf
Is it only if the child is the MOTHER’s firstborn son?
Yes. How many children the father has is irrelevant.
I know a previously never married man who married a divorcee with two daughters. His wife gave birth to a son about two years ago — and there was no pidyon, simply because it was not her first child. The fact that he never previously had children does not matter.
OTOH, a bechor for the purpose of inheriting a double-share depends on the father, not the mother*.
The Wolf
* Although if the bechor came into the world via Cesarean, then he does not qualify for the double share.
Maybe. It assumes that you know whom the sperm donor is. And even then, it’s not so clear.
We have a general rule that children born in wedlock are assumed to be sired by the woman’s husband. While it’s true that genetically the child may not be the husband’s, it may be so for halachic reasons. Clearly this is an issue to be asked to a rav.
In the event that the sperm donor is not known, you can probably go via the principle of rov — since the majority of men are not Kohanim or Levi’im, you could probably safely assume that the child would need a pidyon.
If the sperm donor is known, then even if he is a kohen or a levi, then you would probably still need to ask, based on the above.
If the sperm donor is the husband, well, then, I guess there’s not much of a question.
The Wolf
as long as the father is the genetic father of the baby.
That’s interesting. Why would that be? I don’t see why the identity of the genetic father would make a difference (provided he wasn’t a Kohen, Levi or non-Jewish [and I’m not even certain about that last one]).
After all, even if she wasn’t married at all and had a firstborn boy, he would still need a pidyon. So, I fail to see why whether or not the child is the genetically related to the father makes a difference*.
The Wolf
* and just to head off the argument regarding possible mamzeirus — R. Moshe paskened that a child born to a married woman and a sperm donor is not a mamzer. And even if you don’t agree with R. Moshe and hold the child is a mamzer, he would *still* need a pidyon if he is the firstborn to his mother — just like he would still need a bris.
Wolf, you don’t think that 10% is a rarity? All I know is I live in a community where lots and lots of first babies are being born, and almost never heard of a pidyon being done.
Then there may be something in the water in your community. 🙂
Seriously, however, I don’t know what to tell you… but your anecdotal experience is probably not indicative of the statistical community as a whole.
Actually, my estimate was closer to 30%… but even so, if only one out of ten families do a pidyon, I wouldn’t say it’s rare.
I wonder if you might not (subconsciously) be comparing the pidyon rate to the number of all births rather than the number of first births. We have a lot of births in our community as well, but the vast majority of them aren’t first births. When I try to compare pidyons to *all* births (or even all boys), then the number starts getting rarer.
For my own personal anecdotal evidence; my four grandparents had twelve grandkids between them. Of them:
#1 had a firstborn boy and a pidyon
#2 had a firstborn girl
#3 had a firstborn boy and a pidyon
#4 had a firstborn girl
#5 (me) had a firstborn boy and a pidyon
#6 had a firstborn boy and a pidyon
#7 had a firstborn boy and if he hadn’t intermarried — all other things being equal, they would have had a pidyon.
#8 had a firstborn girl
#9 had a firstborn boy and a pidyon
#10 – #14 aren’t yet married.
While (again) my own personal anecdotal evidence isn’t the same as statistical evidence, I can tell you from my own personal experience that it’s not a “rarity.”
The Wolf
<i>I once got to go to a pidyon that a man made for himself.</i>
We did something similar. When we performed a pidyon for our son, a friend of a friend of a friend who came from Russia who was a firstborn and *possibly* needed a pidyon asked if he could “borrow” our kohen and ceremony for himself as well. He did the pidyon for himself (without the bracha) right after we did our son’s pidyon.
The Wolf
Oomis,
I wouldn’t call it a rarity. Even given the following factors:
— 1 of every 2 first born births are female
— some firstborn males are disqualified due to previous miscarriages, being born Cesarean, etc.
— some firstborn males are disqualified due to having a Kohanic or Levitic grandfather
I’d still say that calling it a rarity is not quite true. I’d estimate (just off the top of my head — I have no statistical data to back this up) that about 30% of couples get to perform a pidyon*. Certainly not the majority, but certainly not a rarity either.
The Wolf
(I made the following assumptions — I think they’re reasonable, but feel free to tweak the numbers:
— 50% of firstborn births are girls
— 25% of firstborn births are disqualified due to miscarriage/Cesarean/other similar reaons
— 15% of firstborn births are disqualified due to yichus.)
Perhaps he meant the Julian Calendar. The current date (Jan 4, 2010 Gregorian) in the Julian calendar is Dec 22, 2009. So, R. Svei’s prediction still has a few days to come true in that regard.
Although why he would refer to a calendar that is basically only used by Green/Russian Orthodox Christians is beyond me.
The Wolf
Interestingly enough, I had a pidyon haben, and then later found out that I didn’t need one.
My parents (who weren’t frum at the time) had one for me at the proper time, as I was the firstborn. Only years later, after we became frum did my mother find out that if the maternal grandfather is a levi (as mine was) that one was not needed.
The Wolf
“I was at that funeral. I explicitly and unmistakably heard R’ Elya Svei say,
“I have a kabala from my rebbe, Rav Elchonon, that Mashiach will come in the year two-oh-oh-nine.”
I’m not necessarily doubting the veracity of the story, but doesn’t it strike anyone else as odd that R. Svei would explicitly use the Gregorian date, rather than the Hebrew date?
The Wolf
There’s a big difference between taking a parent’s advice and giving them veto power over whether or not Boy X can date Girl Y. The OP is talking about the latter — the shadchan deals directly with the parents and if they don’t approve, the date never happens.
I think that when a single is over 25*, the parents shouldn’t have veto power over whether or not they can date and whom they can date. As others have pointed out, if they aren’t mature enough to make that simple decision for themselves, then they aren’t ready for marriage (and I wonder if they ever will be).
Nonetheless, there is certainly value in consulting one’s parents for their advice and input along the way. I’m over forty and a parent myself, and I still consult my parents for advice on life issues — I highly value their advice and respect their life experience — but they don’t have veto power over my life decisions. I think the same approach should be approached by singles as well: consult with your parents, talk with them, solicit (and value) their advice and their input — but at the end of the day, the decision on whether or not to continue with the dating process and to proceed to marriage is yours and yours alone. Parents *should not* have veto power over that sort of decision.
No one is saying (absent extreme circumstances) that parents should be completely out of the loop — but they shouldn’t have the power over older singles that the OP claims they have.
The Wolf
* Personally, I think even 25 is too high for this — but that’s another argument for another day.
I am a rather voracious reader and I can tell you the exact moment I fell in love with reading.
I was in second grade and had to do a book report. My teacher recommended a book called “The Phantom Tollbooth” by Norton Juster. After I finished reading that, I never stopped reading. Highly recommended and (although it’s been a few years since I read it) I don’t recall there being any elements that would be objectionable to Jewish families.
The Wolf
nothing you do is discretionary
please see Chovos HaLavovos, Msilus Yesharim, and Sharaii Tshuvah
Hmm. Nothing? So, if I have a choice between eating tuna fish or salmon for lunch, I should ask a shaila to determine which is the proper choice (since nothing is discretionary)? Should I ask a shaila before spending any cent over and above what is necessary for our basic support?
The Wolf
OK, feivel, so what do you suggest? That we ask a shaila every time we spent a discretionary cent?
The Wolf
of course not. Everyone knows it is a bowl of cherries.
< Forrest > Life is like a box of chocolates… < /Forrest >
Our daughter Wilma* had her bat-mitzvah last year.
We had a very simple celebration. We invited family, a few close friends and the girls in her class. We served milchigs (bagels, spreads, baked ziti, lasagna, etc.) in a shul basement that doubles as a simple hall. We encouraged Wilma to come up with a chesed project idea for her bat-mitzvah, which she did (she grew her hair long and donated it to Locks of Love). We had some Jewish CDs for music and there was no dancing.
For our son’s bar-mitzvah, we established a policy of no speeches — except for *short* speeches by me and the bar mitzvah boy. We continued that for Wilma — I spoke for about five minutes and then she spoke about the parsha and how it related to her now becoming obligated to keeping the mitzvos.
Overall, it was a very nice affair (IMHO) which was not ostentatious, had religious meaning and yet allowed her to commemorate the special day.
The Wolf
*No – Wilma’s not her real name. 🙂
There is a difference between having a lot of guests and having the SAME couple over and over again. One is nice. One causes problems.
Again, there is something to be said for a healthy balance. We have a family that we are very good friends with. Generally speaking, we either have them over, or they have us over about 3-4 times a year. In fact, we have a “tradition” with this family where we have them over for the last day of Pesach. The running joke is that we are their “geborkts dealer.”
Agreed, having the same couple over week after week may not be healthy — but I don’t think that just because you have them over once that it should result in a ban from them ever coming over again — even on a semi-regular basis. Moderation is the name of the game.
The Wolf
A Jew learning Torah L’shmo does more for Klal Yisroel than all the IDF.
That may be true. Nonetheless, ain somchin al hanes…
The Wolf
So, I’m curious, according to the side that a shadchan is required, is my marriage kosher b’dieved since I didn’t use a shadchan? 🙂 Or do I need to divorce her, register with a shadchan and date her again?* 🙂
The Wolf
* In reality, we’re still dating anyway… we never stopped. Why let a wedding get in the way of a good dating relationship? 🙂
OK, perhaps someone can clarify something for me here, because I’m totally confused on one point:
I think we can all agree (can we?) that a single person talking with a member of the opposite gender for the sake of shidduchim is permitted, correct? After all, that’s what happens on dates all the time.
However, if someone who is in the shidduch parsha just happens to meet someone of the opposite gender that they think they might have an interest in, why shouldn’t the “small talk” be permitted? After all, how else is s/he supposed to determine that this person is/isn’t a potential match?
Or is a shadchan the *only* way to meet someone and if you happen to come across someone in “real life,” you just have to forget it?
The Wolf
APushetaYid,
Kids (and ages)? Adults?
The Wolf
That is why we do it @ the chupah.
Which, I always felt, kind of made the whole thing pointless. But that’s another argument for another time.
The Wolf
As usual, there is a middle ground that is being unexplored here.
As some posters have pointed out, Shabbos is a time that should be spent with family — especially the Shabbos meals. We all lead hectic lives and I know that, at least in my family, the Shabbos meal time is the one time in the week when we know that we will all sit at the table together and be able to enjoy each other’s company. We, as a family, value that time.
That being said, however, I think that if we had to have our family *and only our family* for company week after week after week with no other “new faces” to look at, we might eventually go stir crazy. So, once in a while, we may have “new faces” over for a meal. Perhaps a family with whom we are friends, my sister and her family, etc. We don’t entertain (or go out to others) too often because we don’t want to give up our family meal time either, but once in a while, it’s nice to have a change of pace. Sometimes, it almost becomes a tradition — there is one family that we usually have over on the last day of Pesach — we joke that we are their “gebrokts dealer.”
Bottom line, I suppose, is this – we can’t envision entertaining (or being entertained) every week. We need our family time. But, on the other hand, if we *never* had guests (or went out), then we would fall into a rut which is also bad. So once in a while (perhaps once every other month or once a quarter), we have guests in or eat out. For us, that’s a nice balance.
The Wolf
Moe,
Huh? My wife isn’t getting anymore shidduch offers anyway — she’s married.
Or am I missing something?
The Wolf
Well, if a shadchan is required nowadays, I suppose I need to divorce my wife.
Eeees and I met on our own as well. Other than HKBH, there was no shadchan involved at all. And yes, if anyone asks, I tell the truth… I’m not going to lie and invent some “shadchan” story (as I’ve seen other people who met on their own do).
The Wolf
MM,
Thanks for the reply. I have a few questions about this.
WRT the story about the Chasam Sofer, it’s very interesting, but I don’t think we pasken halacha on the basis of stories.
Rav Shternbuch says (2:622) that breaking an engagement is a very serious matter and it causes embarrassment to the other side.
I agree that breaking an engagement is serious and should only be done when there is no more potential for a successful marriage. But that doesn’t mean that one is *forbidden* from doing so… but rather that one should carefully consider all sides before doing so.
Buying a house is also a very serious matter… but I don’t see anyone saying that you have to ask a shailah before doing so.
However, says Rav Shternbuch, this is not so simple. The lingering effects can have devastating consequences in the future
I would think that a divorce has even worse lingering effects.
The Wolf