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MM,
Can you please be more specific in your sources? I’d like to look them up.
Thanks,
The Wolf
MM,
That’s your idea of “d’racheha darchei noam?” Forcing someone to spend the rest of their life with someone they don’t want?
The Wolf
Even without tnoyim breaking an engagement (c’v) is a humongous deal, and a shaila must be asked FIRST
Why is it a humongous deal? Assuming that they don’t go ahead and completely trash the other party, why is it such a big deal?
In addition, let me ask this question — if a shaila is asked, and the rav says no, you really think the person must remained married to a person that they don’t want to be married to?
The Wolf
They have a right to tell people how to vote
IANAL so perhaps I’m ignorant here, but wouldn’t doing that jeopardize their tax-exempt status?
The Wolf
How is a bad policy by a school in NC an indication that Moshiach is close?
The Wolf
OK, let’s try something else here.
Your son is seventeen. He’s not a child anymore – he’s practically an adult. If he’s not free to make his own choices yet (which, in some respects it seems like he is), then he will certainly be free to do so soon.
I’ve always been against the idea of fighting kids on every issue. It’s counterproductive on two levels. Firstly, it stifles kids and causes resentment. Kids (and teens) need to have some avenue of self-expression and choice of clothing is one such avenue. Secondly, if you fight a kid on every issue, they do not learn the different between what’s *really* important to you and what is merely preferred behavior.
Ask yourself this question — if your son grew up to be a fine Yid who has success in learning, acts nicely, etc. but also, on occasion wears jeans — would you be horrified? Would that be something that is so completely unacceptable that it would forever mar your relationship with him (as an intermarriage org going OTD might)? If the answer is no – then you have to learn to let go on this a bit.
That doesn’t mean that you can’t let him know that this isn’t your preferred way of doing things. You can let him know that you think jeans are not the best mode of dress – but don’t forbid it.
A while back, I read the book “Off the Derech” by Faranak Mangolese. In it, there is a quote that I don’t think I’ll ever forget. In it, a rabbi (who, to my shame, I don’t recall his name) stated that most parents don’t realize that as their kids become jeans, their job changes. Once a kid hits their teens, they are no longer in management, but sales. You can no longer “force” your lifestyle on your kids — you have to sell it to them and make them want to do it on their own. I’ve often held the idea that if you have to force teens to do mitzvos, then you’ve lost half the battle already.
So unless this is an absolute red line, let the jeans go. Let him know you don’t think they’re proper (I’d avoid using the words “don’t approve”), but don’t outright forbid them.
The Wolf
From what I understand, most doctors will NOT participate in executions. It’s usually medical techs who do the work. The doctor merely pronounces the person dead when the procedure is done.
The Wolf
Good boys cost good money. The boy is selling the product (himself) and the girl is the buyer. It is a seller’s market.
This sounds so wrong on so many levels…
The Wolf
all you rascles over here who don’t know halacha
Actually, you’ve shown that YOU don’t know halacha with your false claim that abuse of an eruv by some invalidates it for all.
Unless, of course, you can quote me a better source than a sefer with no known author that may or may not exist.
The Wolf
Other possible concerns aside (mixed gender parties, treif food, etc.) what problem is there with having a party for Channukah?
The Wolf
does OP mean opening poster?
Yes.
The Wolf
Am I the only one who thought the OP was being sarcastic and/or making an attempt at humor?
The Wolf
Can’t answer the OP — we rarely buy challah.
The Wolf
What is the “RSS feed for this topic” there for?
RSS is a way to receive syndicated content in a reader. One of the most popular is Google Reader.
The real advantage of RSS is that it brings the content you want to you. For example, I subscribe to well over 100 blogs. If I wanted to read them all, I would normally have to go to every site every day. An RSS reader, however, brings all of them to you in one place.
Each thread in the CR (as well as the CR in general) has an RSS feed. So, you can follow the CR in your RSS reader without having to actually come to the CR.
The Wolf
Mods: Is there a quick way to get back to the coffee room page without having to scroll back up to the top?
Your browser’s back button?
The Wolf
Riiiiiing! Riiiiiiiing!
“Hello? Hello? Hi! How can I help you?”
“You need a shidduch for your son? Well, you’ve come to the right place, um… what was your name?”
“Yossi. Right. Well, you’ve come to the right place. I’m sure we can find your son’s bashert. Now, of course, I’ll need a little information about him. For starters, how old is he?”
“Forty? Did you say forty?! Well, truth be told, that’s kind of old for a shidduch. Has he ever been married? No, well, OK, let’s see what we can do. Next question: what does he do for a living?”
“Excuse me, did you say livestock? Ooooooookay. I just wanted to make sure that I heard that correctly. How about his education. What yeshiva did he go to?”
“None! He hasn’t gone to yeshiva at all? He knows nothing? How is it that a child in a Jewish home didn’t go to yeshiva. Didn’t his grandparents offer to chip in for tuition if you couldn’t afford it?”
“Oh, I see. Your parents aren’t Jewish. You’re a ger. So, any girl he marries will have a ger for a father-in-law and non-Jewish grandparents-in-law. To speak frankly, Yossi, the prospects for your son are rather dim. I don’t know of any girl that would marry him. Well, let’s try one more approach. Do you have any money?”
“No. Poor. Hmm. Well, I’m sorry Yossi. I don’t think I’m going to be able to find a girl for your son. I just don’t think it’s possible. To be honest, between your son’s lack of yichus, learning and money, there’s simply no hope for… what was his name again?”
“Akiva. Right. I’m sorry, but there’s just no hope of getting a shidduch for him.”
The Wolf
It’s really a matter of what works for the particular couple.
Eeees and I dated for about three years before we were married. But that’s because when we met, I was only 18 and she was only 16. And today, many years later, we’re still very much in love.
OTOH, my sister did do the shidduch dating. She saw my brother-in-law for a limited number of dates over two months or so, and then became engaged. And you know what? They’re also very much in love today — many years later.
What worked for me might not have worked for my sister — and vice versa. As long as the people involved are comfortable enough with each other to get married (and they are both reasonable adults, of course), then that’s fine. The point is that there is no set “right number.” It varies from person to person – and you have to do what’s right for you.
The Wolf
Jack Chesbro
[grumpy old man voice]
That young upstart?? Feh. You win 41 games in a season and you think you’re great.
Give me Old Hoss Radbourne any day.
[/grumpy old man voice]
The Wolf
By the way… (not that this has anything to do with anything), today I’m wearing the purple shirt I mentioned earlier. 🙂
The Wolf
BINGO!
Oh, please! You didn’t know that when you said “Yes.”
AOH,
No one on these boards can give you an answer to that question. You *really* need to speak it over with the teenager, his parents and a rav who knows the family well.
And, provisions should be made for him to get a high school diploma (or GED) at some point anyway.
The Wolf
HAO,
By the way, just to clarify…
… are we talking about someone who is also learning in high school? Or is this someone who is NOT learning in high school?
The Wolf
Yes.
C’mon Joseph…
Do you *really* think it’s universally (or even generally) a good idea to drop out of high school to learn in Israel?
The Wolf
EDITED
HaveAnOpinion,
Do you actually *know* someone who is considering this? Or is this just a theoretical question?
The Wolf
EDITED
Wolfish: If you violate A, it does not give you license to violate B.
Huh? Please elaborate.
The Wolf
It is valid and the point should be understood well.
Agreed. I don’t think people should be ridiculed for holding this point of view.
As I said, if they say no, then be understanding of their concerns.
But, by the same token, I don’t think neatfreak should receive the “OTD label” for seeking friendship.
The Wolf
My point is hats and jackets are the cloth of the Jew. Ties are not in the same category.
Forget ties for the moment. Do you dress in your finest every time you daven? If the idea is that we should show HKBH (at least) as much honor as we would show the President, then why don’t you (or anyone else) dress up in your finest every time you daven?
The Wolf
shkotzim
Lastly, I find this term offensive when used to refer to non-Jews. I know plenty of non-Jews who are finer people than some Jews I know and are definitely not disgusting in any manner.
Please do not use it unless referring to actual insects and rodents.
Thank you,
The Wolf
Wolfish: Have you so quickly forgotten out discussion of “lo shinu es malbushayhen”?
So, is it your contention that ties are assur? I asked you that in a different thread and I don’t believe I got an answer.
And, regardless of your answer to that question, you still did not address the issue I raised. If the idea is that we should show HKBH (at least) as much honor as we would show the President, then why don’t you (or anyone else) dress up in your finest every time you daven?
The Wolf
Just invite people over. If they say no, then be understanding of their concerns/customs. That’s all.
Don’t worry about being branded as “off the derech” for showing kindness and sociability. Or, look at it this way… if they would be so judgemental as to brand you as “off the derech” for inviting you over, then you’re probably better off without them anyway.
The Wolf
Wolfish: Is a tie necessarily the cloth of the Jew? A jacket is. A hat is.
Huh? Who said it has anything about it being the “cloth of a Jew?” You said that since I would wear a jacket to see the President, I should by davening. I agreed with you that, in theory, you’re probably right. But the same would apply to a tie as well. It has nothing to do with being “the cloth of a Jew” (whatever the heck that means). It has to do with showing (at least) equal respect to HKBH as you would for an important person.
But you know what? We don’t do this anyway? No one puts on their finest every time they daven. So, obviously, we don’t completely hold by this MB anyway. If we did, we’d all wear our finest every time we davened.
The Wolf
BTW even today if you were to visit the Oval Office or the Queen of England you would wear a jacket (one would certainly hope.) So [putting hats aside for the moment] what is the heter for this missing jackets that is unfortunately so prevalent in some shuls??
You’re right. I also believe that the vast majority of us would wear ties too. Do you always wear a tie for davening?
The Wolf
You are missing Rav Shach ZTL’s subtleties.
Then please point them out to me.
The Wolf
I do agree that for kiruv sometimes we put somethings aside to maintain the more important matters.
So, considering the fact that I don’t know the OP and his kid and (I’m assuming) you don’t either – do you agree that there is a reasonable possibility that it might be a good idea to just “lay off” the jacket/hat issue*?
The Wolf
(*Of course, only the OP can decide if that is reasonable in the particular situation he experiences in his household. We’re just speaking in general terms.)
Maran Hagoen Rav Elazar Shach told American educators that Yeshiva boys should be taught Chumash in Yiddish, even if the boys speak English amongst themselves.
Does that also extend to the case where they don’t understand Yiddish at all?
The Wolf
I’m interested in the thread… just not in reading large posts. 🙂
The Wolf
I didn’t intend to say it is necessarily different whether there are children or not. Sorry for that confusion.
S’ok. 🙂
There are plenty of times when I am less than clear as well.
The Wolf
There is a tznius component that must also be considered prior to young couples inviting other young couples for Shabbos.
But what is it? Why is it different if the couple has kids or not?
If you tell me that it’s wrong period (kids or no kids) then I understand (even if I don’t necessarily agree). But I’m curious (as is the OP) for the reason for the differentiation.
The Wolf
The MB doesn’t say IF this condition disappears YOU can decide to do otherwise.
I don’t think it has to. If someone says “Do X for reason Y” then it’s understood that if reason Y no longer exists, then you don’t have to do X.
It is YOU who decided the aforementioned condition disappeared. The halachic authorities may disagree with your contention.
It’s society in general. Most people who meet with important people today no longer wear hats.
In any event, even if you’re correct (and I don’t think you are) I still think this is a side issue. Considering what I wrote above (about the potential to “break” a child if pushed too far) I think what I wrote stands — if this is the worst thing your kid does, then you’re in good shape.
The Wolf
Joseph,
Why do I need a more current p’sak din? The MB explicitly states it. He says the reason you need for a hat. If the reason is gone, the the need is gone as well.
The Wolf
It says in the Mishne Brurua to wear a hat and jacket by davening and bentching. Hilchos Tefiloh, Siman 91, sk 4, mb 12 (megulah)
Joseph,
The MB specifically states that that one must wear a hat specifically because that’s the way one would greet an important person (and certainly HKBH).
However, in today’s world, many would meet with an important person without a hat. The sociatal reasoning behind the CC’s halacha has changed. His point is that one should not treat HKBH any worse than you would an earthly important person — which is a valid point to make. But if it became common to great important earthly people without a hat, then there is no longer a reason (according to the CC’s logic) to require a hat when “meeting” with HKBH.
And, furthermore, it’s obvious that we don’t completely hold of this anyway, since, if we did, we should all wear our finest suits during davening (I would certainly wear my finest suit to meet with an important person). Since none of us do that, it’s obvious that we don’t hold like the CC’s reasoning on this today.
The Wolf
FWIW, I *do* know him. I’ve always found him to be intelligent, thoughtful and well-learned.
That being said, I have not read his pamphlet on the eruv, and I would probably not be qualified to comment on it even if I did; so I will not comment on the pamphlet directly.
The Wolf
Mod 80,
Why was that post removed?
The Wolf
Please email me at [email protected] if you would like an answer
are you assuming that about socks as well?
You tell me. You’re the one who said that jeans are forbidden because of Lo shinu es malbushayhen.
So, would you say that ties are forbidden for the same reason? Why (or why not)?
The Wolf
How do you know when it is getting serious?
Does the shadchan say anything?
I know this is going to sound mean, Metziut, but I *really* don’t intend it to be, so please keep that in mind when you read the next line.
If you cannot tell (without the shadchan’s help) that a relationship is getting serious, then perhaps you are not ready for marriage. Only *you* can decide when a relationship is “getting serious.” No one else could (or should) be making that decision for you.
The Wolf
Lo shinu es malbushayhen.
So, I’m assuming that, for the same reason, you’re opposed to ties, right?
The Wolf
Me: If that’s the biggest problem in your teen’s life, then you’re doing fine.
Joseph: You don’t mean to say that one should ignore their biggest chasoron, even if this is what it is, do you?
Actually, that just might be the best course.
Let’s face it Joseph, no kid is perfect. Every kid has some chisaron, however small — right? Are you suggesting that we should always be nitpicking our kids over some detail? IMHO, constantly criticizing a child is probably the best way to lose them.
I’ve always believed that the key to good parenting is to know which battles to fight and which to simply let go and say that they aren’t worth the effort. If you fight a battle* over every issue, then the child does not learn to distinguish between what is truly important and what is simply preferred behavior. They quickly pick up on the attitude that they can never be good enough because there is always some issue that their parent is trying correct and even if they do correct one, the parent will just go to the next “fault” on the list.
Furthermore, it sounds like the OP’s son is a teen. Teens need to find their own way in life. While a parent can make suggestions, a teen will quickly resent it if something is enforced from “on high.” Some things (such as school attendance, for example) may need to be enforced anyway – but others should probably not be pushed.
I don’t know the OP or his son, but I would make the following general comments and advice:
1. As I said earlier, if this is your son’s biggest problem, then you’re doing fine. If he’s otherwise learning, not doing drugs or getting in trouble, well-adjusted and friendly, happy and keeping the mitzvos, then you’re well ahead of the game.
2. If wearing a hat and jacket is that important to you, then your best bet at this juncture in life is to influence him by doing. I read a quote in the book “Off the Derech” that always stayed with me. The author (Faranak Mangalese) quoted someone (whom I don’t remember off the top of my head) as saying that many parents don’t realize that as their kids turn into teens, their job (vis a vis keeping the mitzvos [and influencing behavior in general]) has changed from management to sales. When your kids are teens, you can’t force your behavior on them (and, one could argue, if you have to do so, then you’ve already lost the battle). Far better to let your son see, by example, how important the idea of wearing a hat and jacket are to you. By him seeing how important it is to you, you have the best shot of influencing his behavior at this point in his life.
3. Ask yourself this question: If, for whatever reason, he decided to eschew wearing a hat/jacket for good, but otherwise was a fine person who kept the mitzvos, would it be so terrible? Twenty years hence, would you view your parenting job as a “failure” if that was the result? I’m going to assume the answer to that question is no. If so, then learn to focus on what is *truly* important for you to consider your parenting job a success. Meanwhile, refer back to what I said in the last point about how to positively influence him.
The Wolf
* By battle, I don’t mean an actual fight even necessarily mean a heated argument. I mean exerting parental influence to change behavior.
Thank you for your candor, Mod (whoever you are).
Nonetheless, I think you should give thought to my request. This way in case something like this happens again we can follow up. And, if the editing is correct, the mod can tell us why it was edited so we don’t do it again.
The Wolf
We HAVE given thought to your request
Request:
If a post is going to be edited, can the mod who does the editing please identify him/herself so we can follow up with them as to why the post was edited?
Thanks,
The Wolf
Great Idea!…anonymous
Wigs?
I don’t think anyone would say that a wig is a religious symbol. And even a streimel as a “religious symbol” is stretching the point a bit.
The Wolf