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Katan, you are using circular logic – everyone related to zionism is a heretic. Therefore, all the people saved by Zionists and who are observant today are heretics and their lives do not matter. This is against anything I ever heard from gedolim of any direction. R Schach, for example, writes that Hashem caused Arabs to hate early Zionists to prevent them from assimilation into local culture. Clearly, Rav thought that Hashem cares. Even if taking your position, Israelis stayed Jewish, while similar Jews in other countries intermarried or were killed.
> President Trump
We don’t know what will happen in the future. We were discussing definite events in the past – none of the middle eastern countries stayed under Esav, they went thru communist and islamic phases. Your “solution” would have condemned all Jews of EY, Europe, Sefarad, USSR to either assimilation or physical suffering. Again, if you have a Rov to ask – I’ll be interested to hear his opinion on this hypothetical future.
GH, it is not assur. It may be saving his life and lives of others. My kid was once in an accident caused by a “frum” person (who did not even show any remorse or concern after it happened). I asked the rav whether I could sue him to maybe cause him re-think and maybe others around. Rav said that not only I could, but I should. I did not pursue though.
somejew > I don’t remember that ever being request or the subject of debate around here.
First, I’d like to know whether your rabonim hold by the shevuos as halakha.
If they do, what would be their preferred position say in 1920s. One of your haverim suggested to keep EY in the hands of Esav. Several of us objected based on historical evidence that Esav retreated from the colonies and most of Middle East went through a lot of savagery in the last 80 years. There is also a question what would have happened with European survivors; Sephardim; Soviet Jews. At best, they would have gotten to the safe shores of democracies where they would have suffered same rates of assimilation as other Jew there. Again, this is not a shailah on the rabbonim who were against Zionsts at the time, those views had good sevorahs behind them. It is a question for rabbonim who already know what happened after.
common > On a related story, my Irish neighbor wishing me a gut yom
A sephardi friend of mine always wished me “gut shabbos”, while I reply “shabbat shalom”. Less refined people look at us, confused.
Calls are done because they work. Check IRS 991 form (or some charity-following sites) for the charity to see whether they are spending too much of your donations to solicit further donations rather than the core mission.
I am with the OP! I also do not report with the exception of obvious speed traps that are not there for safety.
Munkatch, I don’t think your sevorah works directly – the driver will avoid this police officer, but will get speeding in other places. Also, many drivers are so machmir on police that they go half speed-limit, creating danger and bitul zman for tzibur.
There might be a case for posting fake police reports to slow down the traffic, maybe around the time kids go home from school? You can even post it in front of your own path to ensure safer travel. This is similar to gemorah Avoda Zora that recommends telling gazlanim that you plan to travel further than you actually do. It goes against sheker tirchok, though, not sure where permissible line is. Maybe if you see actual speeding traffic.
some > So be it.
so, you don’t feel responsible that your arguments made me into a Zionist? So, you and havereha repeat views of gedolei yisroel ad nauseum and then fail in defending their kavod by bringing feeble arguments? I think you started well by quoting solid sources, but it is not sufficient to deal with reality of today. I think you are duty bound to go to “judges of your time” as Torah requires and ask them to explain to you, and to us, how those views transfer to modern times. I know you yourself have no shailos, so you don’t feel such a need, but you should do it for the of the reading public.
Here is a case to analyze, as it was temporary:
when Russia Ukraine war started, there were a number of posters recounting Khmelnitsky and other events from Ukrainian history – some of it was from regular posters who suddenly acquired knack for historical studies, but only from russian perspectives; others were from new posters. This was at the time, when russian trolls were playing in comments to major publications, even paid ones, like WSJ. Hard to say, to what degree YWN was included into that campaign, or it was simply propaganda from other places infected the feeble minds. Maybe mods can check IPs of those new posters.ZSK> You had those thoughts, you wrote them down, you posted them.
look, these guys did not come up with these thoughts out of nothing. These are real views of some other people, except the other ones keep it among themselves and did not really have a chance to check those views out with others. They just keep them pure, unexamined within themselves.
just an example from real life. One nice rabbi extended his hesed to have a hevrusa with me, we were learning nicely, he would bring tosfos and current poskim, I’ll bring some questions and real-life situations. At one point, I told him a story how someone reacted to me being Jewish in a remote location. He was very shocked – “are you saying you are wearing a kippah to your job”? So, this pretty reasonable and not closeted charedi internalized stories that all Jews who interact with non-Jews have to hide their kippot. Maybe, if you are not wearing a top hat, you are in that other group ….
Back to our characters, I think they give us good inside information and help us understand what is happening inside their communities. No apology needed.
mentch > Not to mention zombie apocalypses.
well, ability to stay a democracy is one of the major features of a stable democracy. xCTL’s family came from Germany, he might have heard what happened with that country.
The most suspicious part is that they claim to follow their gedolim, but when we here have a discussion on an issue, they are unable to go back to the gedolim and clarify the issues. We still do not know whether yeshivos have statistics on OTD in the army, or what was current path to non-Jewish government in EY and scores of other issues. I do not recall anyone saying on any topic here – I went back to Rosh Yeshiva and he clarified …
katan > But, regardless, yes, he certainly could obligate future governments.
I am not sure how this works in a legal sense. There are laws and then there are private positions of politicians. Then, politicians lose elections or retire. New politicians have new views. I understand that Israel early on had a one-sided government with many long-term politicians, so negotiating with Ben Gurion felt to some as negotiating with the medina itself. Still, this does not change legal reality.
And,, again and again, it seems that you are referring to a position that was reasonable in 1950, when Ben Gurion was in power, but somehow you are frozen in time and did not give a thought how things changed 70 years later.
Avi > one of the rabbis quipped that daat torah had not yet been invented.
I heard this in the name of R Zelig Epstein. I am not sure whether this was related to another psak by R Chaim Ozer – when asked whether (Sugihara, etc) visas should be given to old people (who will be first to be prosecuted by Soviets who were invading Lita) or young ones (whose children will be taken to communist schools), he replied – to the older ones, because
(1) they’ll be in a better position to help those who remained when they reach US
(2) they’ll be of more use to the American JewsSo, depending on the timeline, this shows that R Chaim Ozer did not have a blank policy against leaving, and the reasoning was pretty sound in this grave situation.
I am not sure why xCTL is so rigid on guns. I do not carry, but I have a warm feeling that if there was ever a dictatorial government in US or a russian/chinese invasion, H’V, there will be millions of people with guns to protect us from the worst. Given how much left-wing people are concerned about dictatorial/populist direction of the government (when republicans are in power), I think they should revisit their opposition to guns.
On a shabbos, on a way from Yaffa gate to the Kosel, I saw two American shabbos-dressed teen brothers in a minor play/argument. A standing nearby traditionally dressed Arab addressed them in English: don’t fight on Shabbat. They stopped, embarrassed. I turned to the Arab and said “shabbat shalom”. He returned the greeting.
At the time when cellphones were new, I asked a passing by charedi guy directions to a certain bus near thanah merkazit in Yerushalaim. He got out his pelephone and started calling his friends until he figured out how to find the bus.
Katan, I went to re-read a sefer of articles and letters from Chofetz Chaim in 1930s. He writes about different tzoros and wrong things people were doing, including sending children to non-Jewish gymnasia, non-religious or “cultural” schools. I could not find so far any criticism of RZ or even Z activites or schools (the publisher is charedi).
The fact is that those who followed Zionists to EY mostly survived and are Jewish. A large portion of them is shomer shabbat or “traditional”. Even those who are not observant (and most likely whose grandparents were not observant with or without Zs) are still Jewish and have a chance. A large number of people who never heard about Z, either post-WW2 or Sephardim came to EY without any ideology, but still benefitted. Those who listened to R Elchonon in large part perished, as did he. Those who survived and ended up in other countries also suffered high intermarriage rates. I am not sure how else you interpret these facts.
> You can look up the Satmar Rav’s holy words and see what he wrote. You can then take that to your LOR and ask him for details and see if he can provide to you those details if you’re really that curious.
You provided the words. We provided analysis that shows that the Esav idea, while reasonable at a time, does not match recent history. If you do not have an answer in your mind, maybe you can ask or write a letter to someone who share your views and share their answer with us?
Katan > The Zionists invaded that land over a century ago against the wishes of the Jews there.
First, whatever the history, if you are a citizen of the country, the laws apply to you. Second, most charedim are not descendants from those who were there, but arrived later thanks to Zionist help or/and visas. But, you know, Russian governance over Jews was also not legitimate: Jews did not live in Russia with few exceptions, and then Russia occupied Poland where Jews had certain autonomy rights. That did not save Jews from the Army.
> made an unlimited deal with Agudah
Now, you are worshipping a prime minister of 80 years ago. A prime minister is not able to obligate future governments with private agreements.
You are continue disappointing us by staking out principled positions and then revealing that you really did not think through any serious arguments to defined them. You made me more of a Zionist than I was before I started talking to you.
Avi > what do your gedolim say about Internet usage?
Not sure where is this coming from? I presume everyone in this discussion got a psak allowing using internet!
To your question, I do not recall asking shailos on this. When internet was starting, I did help a couple of rabbis to set up websites and mailing lists. The only negative reaction was form one rebetzin that vetoed posting family pictures on the website. Presumably, ayin harah, not strictly privacy. This was before instagram, obviously. I did listen to some Jewish organizations focused on kids & internet, and took some of their advice to heart.
The closest possible answer – I asked recently whether yeshivos need to teach safe driving (based on a gemorah in avodah zorah that R Akiva and Rav Yehudah were teaching safe travelling). Rav acknowledge the need but refused to switch from teaching gemorah and poskim to common sense, suggesting instead to rely on “good math and English education” that will enable you to read and understand literature on the subjects you need in your life, starting with marriage. So, this position should also apply to internet.
Also, ghettos were pretty solid eruvin
Rocky, right, up to recently, majority of people lived in small villages and towns, who never saw number of people that make eruv meduaraita in their life.
BY student does not have a mitzvah of learning and should not be affected by the view of female soldiers, what’s her excuse? uniform not tznua enough? cavalry requires pants? she can ride F-16 instead? is there an issue of yichud if someone needs to fly the plane?
Some mothers want to home-school their kids. Others have to work. If they work at school, they usually stick with the same subject and class for years. I know a mother who could not afford to stay home with her numerous kids. She taught for ten years from 1st grade to tenth to continue teaching her oldest child.
On a more philosophical level, a Rav working at an out-of-town college campus, mostly with Jews from NY published an article strongly advising parents to avoid American “tradition” of “going away to college” and send kids to a local college instead (undermining his own job),
yankel > learning horayot reminds us how pervasive mistakes are.
> so – why do you consider AAQ as more immune to mistakes than the collective of our chachamim ??We are bringing here different perspectives exactly to examine them. I enjoy listening to people with different views.
You also reflectively fall into “no true scotsman” pitfall that you usually avoid. My positions have support in some chachamim. I am most fond of R Soloveitchik’s approach. I did not start out as his talmid, but I found enough common points between my own thought process and his writings that I am paying attention to the other things he is teaching.
yankel > you have not internalized the calamity of OTD
so, I made several posts discussing how to deal with the danger. You did not seem to care about that, and it is me who does not care?
Historically, I agree with your point that charedi approach saved many people from assimilation and OTD. As Chazon Ish suggested, this is the “desert” approach. A minor issue – Hashem punished us by 40 years in the desert; here we are about 80 years into that. Bal tasif, anyone? Would you agree that 80 years in the desert creates some negative impact? The negative impact does not mean that the decision was wrong. R Avigdor Miller writes that one should not be surprised that his hand is burnt if he saved the child from the fire …
In my opinion, the negative effect is that the kahal gets used to the desert and considers it the only Torah in the world – and even becomes aggressive towards the rest of the world. If Torah is Emes – is it worth changing the Torah in order to “save” it. R Soloveitchik asked a more philosophical question
early on after WW2: if we claim to know the Emes and we now have an ability to participate in world affairs, can we hide in the caves? This ignores the practical aspects discussed above, of course, but it is a serious long-term issues.So, what is the “exit strategy” from the desert?
yankel, I am not sure why you start throwing insults all over, it obscures the points you are making and takes your mind off the points I am making.
A (modern) democracy does not mean that majority can always get their way. There are various mechanisms to keep the system stable despite the – often – ignorant and hot-headed majority. Courts are a natural anti-majority mechanism. In this case, you evidently need way larger consensus in the country than 51%. So, you need to think how to create such majority, partly by educating people, partly by modifying your position to include more of other groups. Presuming SC is occupying an extreme left-wing position, you should be able to unite 60-70% of people around some way of judicial reform that may look as insufficient to you, but moves the position enough to change the current situation. As I understand, there is actually a discussion of such ways in knesset.
xCTL > but as much as I disagree with your opinion I will defend your right to make it known
will all due respect, redleg is better armed to defind your right not to bear arms.
Katan, you are trying to solve complex problem, while lacking awareness of the discussions you yourself held several days ago. We are not even talking about ideologies of 100 years ago that seem to touch your heart so much. We are talking about a person who lives in a country and has certain obligations as a citizen.
yankel > They will not transform the army. The army will transform them .
This is yeridas hadaros.
R Chaim Brisker was told about a (anti-religious) Yiddish theatre making a show of forming a Jewish army where future soldiers are being asked – did you build a new house, etc. When asked – are you afraid, everyone leaves and only R Chaim and R Spector left in the army… R Chaim remarked that this was all right, they just did not play the finale – they won the war …
So, you are saying, that out of, bli ayn hara, thousands of students you can not find a hundred that will withstand the view of ladies in the Jewish army? This is beyond pathetic. And, again, this is childish talk about someone owing you something. If there is a need to go to the army, you deal with that and Hashem will help you.
> its time you should be mitchazek a bit more in your emunat chachamim
right, I am doing it by learning maseches harayot.
yankel > you seem to be [sorry] ok with
I am not ok with this. I am saying they are playing within a certain political system of rules. Political system depends on political will, especially when the system is not perfectly defined. Historical example from USA SC. Number of judges is not defined. When FDR started controversial reforms in 1930s and SC was vetoing them, he threatened to simply increase number of seats and appoint additional judges. This was undefined in the reasonably well-defined American system. It wolud have been de-stabilizing, as the next president would do the same and double number of judges again. There was political backlash, and FDR did not do that, but also SC changed their behavior.
Same thing here – if 60% of population would see SC actions as illegitimate, politicians would create a way to stop them. It is possible that voters do not care for the law and just want their side to have an advantage. That is an even bigger problem then with the civil society and you need to work to educate people about that. Calmly, with arguments, without shouting explain that healthy democracy requires a well-defined rule of law. Run candidates and advertisement that talk about that instead of demanding handouts for your group.
yankel. I think we need to thank Katan for clarifying his and his rebbes’ position. To summarize my underatanding:
– anti-Z was a very reasonable response at the time, when Jewish society was destroyed from within with all kind of -isms.
– in retrospective, Z turns out to be different from communism, bundism, german-jewish nationalism – as it created a place for those non-religious Jews to survive both the spiritual and physical abyss.
– also, in retrospective, as Katan helped us to understand, there was no alternative. If we were, H’V, follow other paths, our losses would be much higher.
– Why Hashem used non-religious Zs as a kli calls for us to do teshuvah – why the religious leaders, aside from a small number of RZs and similar, were not able to lead the nation. This was probably a culmination of the whole haskalah period: Jewish communities played defence against the onslaught of modernity, and we only now are figuring out how to live in this new world.he learned to shoot from his republican parents.
the problem is that you used to have to learn at Harvard to become a communist, now you can do it online.
NP, you seem to presume that the way of Ben Torah is different from obligation of eery Yid rather than adds to that.
I just a hint of this debate at the end of Tannis. Discussing Tu b’Av, gemorah mentions that one should increase night learning hours after Tu b’Av, otherwise his mother will bury him. This seems to hint that night hours are special and different from day, but it should be increased only when the night is long! So, it seems gemorah is saying you can be smart and adapt to the calendar and get enough of night learning (that is very important) without ruining your health. I wonder whether commentaries connect this gemorah to rambam.
yankel,
can you find 1000, or 100, bochurim who are strong in their emunah and send them in? Don’t select the weakest batlanim who are already baerly observant and spend days smoking around the yeshiva. Send strong students, maybe just below those who are iluyim and will be gedolim of the next generation. I will be surprised if they would be affected by the army. Maybe, they’ll transform the army.Sara Rifka,
You live in a country, surrounded by enemies. Torah is against worshipping force and might, but Torah is not against having an army. When Torah gives a brocha that you will defeat the enemy – it will be, and was, with your army. And if there is a need for the army, then you can’t say “my blood is redder than yours”. This is also our tradition.And, while learning Torah is a great thing for everyone, we never had in recent history luxury of large part of population learning and doing nothing else. Great Volozhin yeshiva had up to 400 students.
NP, right, the point here seems to be that these obligations contradict each other sometimes
If you present someone’s view, you should analyze it from the what you know. We don’t know what SR or REW would say if there were to see Yerushalaim with yeshivos and Jewish soldiers. So, you were asked a simple question that arises from SR shitah – what was the path to non-Z future for EY and also Yidden in DP camps, Muslim countries, Russia. SR did not know about ISIS, you do.
I am not so sure they can make great soldiers given a combination of weak beliefs and poor judgment. They should be given some safe tasks first, like guarding prisons or talking to remaining demonstrators until they prove themselves.
SQRT > we cannot endanger millions of Jews, and our holy places, for the Satmar Rav’s unrealistic fantasy.
I have to defend the honor of SR. It was not a fantasy before WW2. There was British empire and League of Nations with all lofty goals of minority rights. And maybe even after WW2 one could have imagined some Esav rule. But now after we know limits of Western participation in Middle East and other “third world” and history of all Arab countries. It is not Rebbe’s fault that someone continue clinging to the idea that did not survive the reality test.
anyway, to be clear about the context, my original story was not about whole congregation routinely violating shabbos. It was about people will long-time ties to the shul, whose families started the shul, who felt marginal connection and were coming on yomim norayim and the shul cut them off. Now, all the chabadnikim will be spending years trying to find grandchildren of these people and maybe bring back a small number of them.
> Even the Young Israel shuls that used to have an open parking lot on Shabbos have all long closed them.
“Even”? As if YI was not shomer shabbos l’hathila. I had a sephardi rabbi complaining about (many years ago) when he was trying to raise up his community while renting space from YI. When a Sephardi congregant parked on Shabbat right in front of the shul in a “no stopping” zone – a YI zealot ran in shouting about shabbos. The Rav felt that if he were to give this message to the congregant, he’ll lose him – so he simply asked him to move the cat from “no stopping”, Now, grandchildren of that man are all in yeshivos despite YI love for shabbat
pekak > Have you ever learned Chovas Halevavos?
I admit I did not – I do not read Arabic! I was simply making a pun on the poster referring to heart as a Reform thing.
ujm > All those Arab behaviors you’re describing started after that advent of Zionism and the Zionist agitation to take over political control of Palestine.
I don’t think this argument holds. As already mentioned, in last 100 years, Arabs committed atrocities to other minorities and to other Arabs. As one of my Israeli friends said years ago: What is the mailah of being a cousin to a person who kills his brothers?!
katan> as the Satmar Rav wrote decades ago, that non-Zionist rule by a responsible Esav ruler would be far better for Jews there and around the world than would be any Zionist regime. …The details aren’t relevant here, nor is anyone obligated to provide them to the idolaters here.
You do realize that you just showed that you can’t find a realistic suggestion for Satmar model of governance in EY? I would not be surprised that SR has a better argument than you are presenting here, but you are really undermining his reputation – as he was a pretty sharp Rav. I can’t imagine if I were to ask him directly, he would give such an evasive answer. I suggest you seek some more eloquent Satmarer andask him to provide a better argument based on SR seforim so that honor of a talmid chacham does not suffer
coffee > There were numerous posts of mine that weren’t approved of in the past due to the way I worded it
same here. In many cases, I was thankful to mods for stopping us from inappropriate expressions. At the same time, mods used to be way more biased towards some rabbis who got to be always right, and others who were allowed to have faults. I don’t think there was any factual basis in that, just personal trepidation in some cases that somehow was absent in others. Either mods got iyush or, more likely, took the posts (including the ones they banned) to heart and seemingly became more reasonable allowing fair criticism across the board, while mostly avoiding bad faith attacks
yankel > because he knows that any honest answer will include a negative – no , he will not send any of his sons
I guess you did not understand my answer, so I say it again – I can easily say that I will send, but my answer is not worth anything given that I am not inthe parsha. So, I am not going to take a cheap shot. And the fact that you are interested in this question and not in the ways to reduce the risk is unfortunate.
This is very typical in many areas of human endeavors. In business, for example, a silly businessman is “brave” to risk his money on a venture and hope to become rich. I saw (and participated in) briefs by shrewed salesmen – their pitch to the customer, while selling an expensive product/service – “can you afford the rosk of using other [cheaper, but not so assured] products? The goal is to try to achieve the goal while minimizing the risk.
I understand (but do not agree with) those who do not work with medinah. But if you understand the value of defending the country but simply refuse to “take the risk”, your first focus would be to evaluate the risk, then analyze sources and minimize them.
yankel> there is no difference between a ben torah and talmid chacham , however ,
by a typical gemora, it seems that: ben Torah is someone who reliably knows regular daily halachos. In osme cases, he may NOT need additional chumros that will keep amei haaretz from mixing up permitted from forbidden. Talmid Chacham is someone who can reliably answer shailos on the maseches he is studying. Chacham is someone can answer sheilos on any topic. So, T’Ch is a step over ben Torah.
But to the topic: did I understand the reference correctly? It seems to be saying that this is what some do, not a strict requirement? And there is a maase that seem to contradict: young Tsfas Emes was learning late at night and not fresh in the morning. His grandfather, Chidushei Harim, gave him some mussar. Hevrusah wondered why Tsfas Emes did not explain that he was learning. He answered: and what – miss an opportunity to get mussar from my grandfather!? The implication here is that learning at night is a good excuse.
Fascists! Even the russian czar never took away any subsidies from Jews who learned Torah! I don’t think he even knew the word “subsidy”.
The government take subsidies away from people who do not recognize the power of this government and who are ready for mesiros nefesh – but maybe not loss of subsidies.
yankel, unfortunately, we just had a political assassination in US. These things happened before in multiple countries. This is what you get when you call your opponents “illegal”,”kidnappers”,
You seem to be OK with voting, but not with the whole system. Modern democracy (or republic) is not just an Athenian direct vote, it is a complex system of legal institutions, You do not to appreciate that SC is part of the Israeli legal system. If you think they are violating some rules, then other parts of the system, like Knesset, should be able to override them. If they could not – it means more support. Maybe you need rules that are clearer – and then you need support to make those rules in Knesset. Generally, the fact that not all 51% votes become law is a feature, not a bug. People who started modern democracies understood this (in USA) and got burned by not understanding (France).