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I would not bring Zelensky as exhibit 1 for this situation, though. Here is a guy who risks his life daily fighting Russian Nazis, without having no preparation for this role. Whatever his position is on a particular missile is, we probably expect Ukrainians having his statutes in the future across the anti-semite Boghdan … The only people who seriously blame him for anything are pro-Russian public which currently stands at 7% in USA (down from 15% 5 years ago).
Beitza somewhere 25 addresses this excellent question. Bear with me:
you have a cow that coughs suspiciously at the end of yom tov,, maybe she casiught covid, who knows. In order not to encounter huge loss, you would like to shecht it, but there is not enough time to cook it. Can you schecht, cut a piece and eat it raw? R Akiva says – no. Maybe because it is not kosher because you are not checking the lungs, etc? No, you can presume (mduaraita) that majority of animals are healthy. Then, the only explanation is that you can’t shecht it because of lack of Derech Eretz! That is, we proved that Derech Eretz is mduaraita!
Gemora then goes on the “tangent” – lots of mitzvos are given for us to develop Derech Eretz and ability to wait (kashrus, niddah, etc). And then: answer to your question:
.. Dogs among animals, roosters among birds, Jews among nations – all have azut (boldness? hutzspah?). So, Hashen gave us Torah to train us to limit ourselves. Otherwise, Jews will not leave space for other nations to live …
And this is exactly what is happening with Jews who do not know better but try to “save the world” through all kind of means – communism and other “activism” comes to mind first lately.
Avira, from the little I know, some conditioned mentioned above indeed require medication, while those who diagnosed with ADD would often benefit from other approaches. I do not mean that there is no ADD, just that symptoms are such that it is easy to direct bothersome kids into that category, and maybe, as you are saying, kids respond to the medication, it became accepted. My humble suggestion would be, unless there is clear danger to someone, try behavioral approaches, mussar, improving home and school environment before going to meds.
common, repeating, I only wanted to show that the careful position has serious Rabbis behind it. So, you can’t call people names for holding by it. R Heineman was answering shailohs that someone asked hi, he did not call for people to storm Lakewood. Continuing saying that you and your chevrah “do not give a hoot” to opinions of other Rabbis just underscore the sad picture of where are communities are.
Kollelim help baalei batim to learn and provide affordable teachers to local schools. Thus, these baalei batim stay in the town and feel more attached to learning, and also give to Chabad houses who connect to non-observant. Thus, Kollelim indirectly contribute to the Chabad activities.
R Salanter saw such connections in spiritual world: when something is not learning well in vilno, a professor in Paris becomes an apikoires or something like that.
In the interest of historical truth, Mir Yeshiva did _not_ run away from Nazis.
common, If you have your own – so far unnamed – posek, follow him, gezunte heig (sic!).
I brought R Heineman to show that such positions are legitimate. I am somewhat flabbergasted that you dismiss the Rav this way. Next, you will say that Chaim Volozhin had only 400 students, R Akiva ended up with only 5, and Rashbi was OOT homeschooling his son…
Avira,
I am saying the fact that so many people left the community is, in some part, the hesaron of the community itself.People were looking and trying different approaches. You can’t blame Mendelsohn for trying, and you can’t blame those who opposed him for trying. But I am sure there were people then also who were sitting and criticizing everyone who tried to find solutions. Maybe some became Reform, etc because of the lack of effort and not because some efforts were not successful.
from the silence, I conclude that others also did not encounter such views in their communities, so we have here people inspired by online propaganda somehow.
How could Taiwan secede? from what? Communist China never had a fair election. Just use the right words. Ok, so US recognized the dictatorship in 1979. It does not change the fact that the only Chinese province where there were legitimate elections is Taiwan. Compare with current Ukraine – areas under Russian occupation lost their votes in their parliament and will get it back when the Russian armies go home or into the fertilizer. same with China. When areas occupied by communists will become free, they will vote. Until then, Taiwanese represent the country.
what about Beruriah suggesting to R Meir not to daven for criminals’ deaths?
Avira, you love finding the worst in everyone (Briskers excepted). It is an easy-to-verify fact that there are shuls full of people who learned by Chabad shluchim, and even in other places there are people who learned by them. If Lakewood kollelim have a similar effect, then great. Now, if some of them are not doing things right, you are free to direct them to better understanding and mekarev them into Brisk.
Again, we are confronted with 4 mln drowning Jews and we are barely saving 1% of them.
Going back to Reform – imagine we would have all the tools and institutions we have now at the time reform, communists, and maskilim were starting up: yeshivos, BYs, Artscroll, YU, Hillels on campus, Chabad houses, R Lord Sacks, R Berel Wein – would you think many of those Jews stayed within the boundaries, satisfying their yearning for gashmius or spirituality using these tools? So, we did not have them in time and it is the whole community “fault”. Again, “fault” as shortcoming, I am not saying that 18th century Berlin Rabbis were expected to come up with all of this. But Mendelhson at least tried, and those who opposed him also tried.
Re: shuls that “did not enforce rules”
I am thinking there is a difference:
at one extreme: rules are very conservative (masks outside), most people follow them, and easy to avoid rule-breakers (big shul, ventilation or open windows, part marked for masks, etc).at another extreme: rules are written up for the health department, most people do not follow them and no consideration given to elderly, etc (small hall, closed windows)
> Michelle Obama 2024. Can anyone beat her?
Is this a play on: Pres. Obama, when did you stop beating your wife?
common > who threatened members after they daven in a porch minyan,
Again, R Henneman said that people should not even daven in several nearby yards when it was verbotten by the government. Presuming someone was following R Henneman (I am not saying this was the case, who knows), can a Rav or a beis din enforce their opinions?
We in our days are used to beis din limiting itself to kashrus and gittin, but public policy is obviously within the beis din rights. Again, I am not litigating this particular case, speaking generalities.
We talk about reform and socialists as if they are an external threat, but they came somehow from inside of the normative community. We can blame the czar, Pascal, Marx and Napoleon but still the Jewish community and leaders let the reform happen… This is not to blame someone specifically, we are talking about new unprecedented challenges, but we need to admit that all movements came from is
thanks to all NYers who went to vote for Zeldin without any hope, but at the same time helped elect several R- congressmen which may carry the day. Yasher koach.
we have about 4 mln Jews in America without any connection to anything genuine and on the verge of disappearing. Why question any attempt to save these people!?
common, mechila usually assumes damage done in some form. I may not have followed all threads – did yeserbius damage your wealth or blood pressure in some way?
Syag, you are right. When I am zooming in on specific streets on data cityofchicago org, each street is relatively safe. Say, a (random) bloc near Kriser’s pet store had only 3 events this year: battery, criminal damage, attempted armed – handgun. I guess, it is a relatively low crime area. Maybe this helps understand our difference risk perception on other items. Here in Podonk, this would be an undesirable area to live.
ujm, I agree we should not led Beijing to secede from the Republic of China that has an only freely elected government in the country. Maybe UN can help organize fair elections in the territories temporarily occupied by Communists.
my apologies to a gantzeh Chicago, including Dearborn park that had 1,300 crimes committed in the last year. I should have known better than touch that in this group (or go there with or without a yarmolke).
huju: Exit polls have been used for over 50 years and have proved very accurate.
I am not so sure. As far as I understand, exit polls are re-weighted by the results of actual votes – and then they provide excellent insight in voters’ minds. This, of course, hinges on accuracy of the voting results. I am not sure whether unweighted exit polls are accurate (and this is possible to test given the known votes). It is also not clear how prevalence of pre-voting affects exit polls.
This makes me wonder: would it be considered mesirah for YWN to respond to a lawful subpoena about a poster? What do poskim say?
Avira > Do you know how many children think that the Jewish world consists of kew gardens hills
One of my kids was shocked when he realized that there might be more non-Jews in the world than Jews and many of them are not janitors in his school. But if MDD is also in the first grade, I’ll try to be more understanding, bli neder.
Avira > without …, who don’t inject …, who revere …
again, this is a subjective list through which you feel free to reject anything you don’t like. Just say – “I respect anyone I respect”. This is as non-Torah attitude as some of the excesses you are, often rightfully, criticizing.
Ok, my original question is still not answered –
do you guys know people with such pro-Russian opinions IRL? In your shuls? schools?Could you ask them where is their opinions coming from? People posting here do not explain their sources beyond vague hints that “they know better”.
it is sakonos nefoshos to go have a yarmolke on your head, or in your pocket, in some parts of Chicago – should we let Russians bomb it?
mdd1 > How many shuls are there already in Ukraine?
I don’t know. The first result by google search is
Jews in Odessa synagogue pray together for peace YouTube · i24NEWS English Feb 27, 2022so there are some.
If you are looking for halachic guidance here: there is a recent interview by Rabbi of Moscow (who looks American or European and yeshivish) explaining why he ran away from Russia after the war started. He sounds like an expert. I suggest find his interview and go from there. Maybe contact him and ask.
phil, whatever things happened on the territory of Russian empire for last several centuries, you need to acknowledge that people there, whether Russian or Ukrainian or Polish, are human beings, descendants of Adam Harishon. Many of their forefathers were criminals, but as many, if not more, were themselves victims of the Czar, Gulag, Nazis, etc.
Current generation of Russians seems to be following in footsteps of their fathers, or at least many of them at least support that. So, we add their sins to their fathers’.
Current generation of Ukrainians go to work, harvest wheat, vote, including for Jews, steal from the government, pay bribes, generally behave like 2nd world citizens. They do not seem culpable for whatever was done in their country before they were born. If and when they’ll start behaving the same way as Russians, I’ll join you in saying “no surprise here” and will not support them in any way. So, did we find a middle point to agree here?
Avimelech was punished for boorish behavior (“who is this woman”) – because he did not take advantage of classes in derech eretz that Avraham was giving. Thus, culpability is according to knowledge that the person has, or has access to. Thus, who is more barbarian – a barbarian who is not aware that you can live peacefully with others, or a modern person who has access to Torah and all kind of other facts and books. Can we say that the latter can not find meaningful information in the sea of facebook so he is essentially at the same point as the original barbarian?
fascinating question, we need a barbarity index across civilization.
One example of civilization meeting across different levels – Aztecs, with their sacrifices, or Spaniards, who defeated Aztecs and who should know better …
a good question about florida rules and their effect:
Florida comes up 13th worst among all states in mortality, but there are so many details, of course …
I looked up several comparisons with California, they are a little difficult due to differences in ages and behaviors. One reasonable one shows:
FL was less stringent from Fall 2020 to Spring 2022. FL was MORE stringent in summer 2020 and now it is the same.
Vaccination rate for older people about same, but in FL less for young people
FL has 2-5% lower mortality for 75+ olds, 1-4% higher for 55-75 yo, 30%-50% for other adult years and 2.4x higher for kids 5-14.Of course, elderly mortality is much higher, but FL elderly are healthier and have lower mortality in all causes. Also, FL elderly less likely to live with younger people, so they did not have virus attacking them at home.
On the other hand, FL youngsters are poorer than CA. CA had higher suicide rates for ages 44 and lower.
So, my guess is that FL policies did not affect elderly much, but added mortality, and other effects, to younger people – I don’t think poverty difference account for 30-50% difference in adults and for sure 2x difference in school children. And, remind you, US on a whole is 1.5-2x worse than comparable European countries, so CA is not a gold standard here
Up to you to decide whether this was worth 1.7% better economic performance, just wanted to clarify what the facts are.
source: California Versus Florida, a Covid Reckoning: Justin Fox, Bloomberg Tax, May 7, 2022,
Avram > the shul did not actively throw anyone out who wasn’t wearing a mask,
If this was pre-vaccine and there were older people in the shul, the question would be how big the shul was. If it is a huge hall with enough place for people to separate, this would be fine. If it is “6 ft” theoretically, but 3 in practice – in 1 dimension, with people being close together, then it was not responsible at that time.
common, was this Rav in your community, or was he a 5-town Rav who decided to pasken in your community? I would say if he is a Rav in your community, he has a right to do so and you should listen. If he is a visitor, not clear what his authority is.
It also depends on what the government rules were at the time and place. As I mentioned before, R Henneman advocated super-careful compliance with the early decrees of no-minyanim-in-the-yard. I do not know what was his position later on.
given unexpected hunger for data in this group, I verified my early unscientific survey on Shabbos with a more systematic data collection … I started making mental notes by brochos, continued while waiting for the 10th, and finished by shmone esre. Hope my small (*) decrease in kavanah is justified by this small contribution to science.
(*) small decrease as my initial kavana was not high enoughSo, out of 10 people, I a priori evaluated 6 is uncareful and 4 as careful based on previous behaviors. Out of 6 uncarefuls, 3 were no sound, 2 (adult + teenager) were dry-coughing every 10 minutes, 1 (adult) – every 20 minutes. Multiple coughs b-toch-dibur were counted as one. Out of 4 carefuls, all no sound.
As they say in exploratory analysis, this data is of course not enough to make any conclusions, but it is sufficient to define what to collect for. So, others are welcome to follow the same protocol: evaluate people in advance, then count cough rates per group.
> more taxes on persons with annual incomes … more support
> but I am too tire or lazy,As Berdichever would say – look how honest Democrats are: they will even admit that they want to take from others and do not want to think about it.
jackk > know only how to point out issues but have absolutely zero ability to solve them.
Jackk, it is understandable you are confused. Republicans prefer giving people freedom to act on their own, so it is hard to see the connection. Dems prefer “hands on” approaches, as Reagan said “I am from the government and I am here to help you”. “sometimes” solutions do not work, so there is even more effort, and then another effort to solve problems created by the first effort, so everyoe is very grateful “for the effort”.
Here is an example for you to ponder: Pres Obama suggested that private lenders are wasting money, so government will save a lot of money by making student loans by itself. This “helped” to get money for other spending priorities. Several years passed, and now Pres Biden uses the fact that the loans are now in gov hands – to simply forgive them. Forget all the promised “savings”.
ok, bli neder, I’ll count next times.
I mean, you modified my words to introduce an error. When gemora says that quoting someone in the name gives olam habo, I presume they meant quoting correctly!
smerel, vaccine absolutely made a difference. Death rate fell 10x between December 2020 and June 2021. Vaccine was less effective in time when Delta came along. Israelis provided that data to Pfizer and they recommended boosting and, after initial negative reaction from Fauci et al, data prevailed …
As of now, death rates are at the lowest level, same as two previous summers but holding for a number of months. It would be lower if people would be taking boosters (Europe is 70%, Israel 58% US is 40%) and getting Paxlovid when they get sick.phil > herd immunity will be attributed to the “vaccine” that was proven to not prevent transmition nor even prevent people from getting covid
Neither current vaccines, nor having covid, prevents getting or transmitting it several months later, especially with the virus mutating. The difference is noticeable. In one shul I daven, there are people who were mostly careless. I feel sometimes that I am at a smoker’s club as every couple of minutes you hear a chronic cough, mostly young men. In another shul, where people preferred vaccines to natural immunity and this happens way less.
phil, I am not taking your freedoms away from you, relax, I am just saying that it is unbecoming of an erliche person to discuss someone’s grandfathers’ deeds when the grandchildren are sitting in basements hiding from artillery. And sneaking grammar errors INSIDE the quote is also not nice.
I was trying to explain that the idea of always looking for past “sins” is dangerous. A simple idea of “do not murder” expressed in 10 commandments is much simpler. As an example, I brought the German population that, by itself, was not involved in any murders, they “only” supported it based on their understanding of how bad Jews, Poles, Brits are, or were in the past. So, the world being not black and white does not mean that we need to excuse murderers. If you do accept Putin’s culpability, there is no reason to discuss academic history of Slavs in the same sentence.
Speaking in shul about politics risks the tax free status.
huju, I don’t know about lakewhut but why would someone with economic knowledge support more taxes on people with some income? These people are already paying more in taxes that those below (as our taxes are proportional). If you think things are not fair “enough”, why not propose a compromise like “less taxers for those with income below”, such as decreasing further 10K SALT limitation that was introduced in 2017 and is obviously piad by rich people?
Avira, I hear you on what your RY said. I was not the one questioning this. It really depends on local conditions. If your governor would act against voters, then it is reasonable to be quiet. Especially, as it seems from the result, the R- did not really have a chance. The question now is what will your community do after the election. Continue insisting that our schools should be getting government funds and not be accountable for what they do with them or find some reasonable accommodation.
Syag, I am not sure what are you accusing me of? Expressing my opinion that uncareful behaviors caused deaths and supplying facts to support my opinion? please clarify. As to actions, I did not detain anyone or forced masks on some pure souls. I did help a couple of places to improve their ventilation, I hope it was not a crime. Those who wanted to breath more virus still had enough places to visit.
Avira, Fauci did not “run the country”, politicians did. American restrictions were on par with other developed countries.