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This is a serious question. Amoraim seem to be ok with jokes, but Tanach is not so much. Despite some examples of irony here and there, most of it comes from people, not from Hashem. Maybe given the pathos of communications between Hashem and people, humour is just not appropriate for that moment? Imagine, a navi who is preparing for the occasion and learning a bunch of Heavenly jokes instead?! Maybe Yona’s kikayon counts as a practical joke, we are just not used to read it like that.
er, you afre right about state statistics. Still, if you look at the cities, most high crime cities are Democratic, 9 out of 10 top ones, according to numbers I saw – and so do largest cities where there is most if the overall crime. Correlation is not causation, of course, it well might be that it is a general condition of large cities to both have high crime and liberal policies. Maybe worth looking at cities that had more and less liberal mayors and seeing what the effect was. First thing that comes to mind is NYC where crime declined under less liberal mayors.
interject > do you truly care about the poor, mistreated breslov women or are you really just anti breslov
I said nothing against Breslov, I am questioning behavior of those who go to Uman, especially those who were breaching Belorus-Ukraine border last 2 years. So, I am saying having them at home may not be such a gift from Hashem at home for these poor women. Incidentally, you ain’t have to be a Breslov to go to Uman. Actually, the first Rav who went there at the end of Soviet times was not even a Breslov (he was a Chasidishe Rebbe from Chicago).
soosim, a good point. It is a general question whether people, or communities, should keep endowments – that is save for future problems instead of spending on solving today’s. It seems reasonable for an individual who has means to save something for the future, although some say it is a lack of bitahon. _But_ if you are managing tzedokah that is based on funds donated by others, rather than your own – what is your right to save for future poor instead of today’s? do you not believe that future donors will not give? And especially if someone draws salary from the endowment, this does not look right.
Ubiq, I am not a legal scholar. I understand that there are sources that recount history as you say and it sounds reasonable, but Heller claims opposite. I am not planning to go in details over Scalia’s arguments and see where you disagree, but maybe you want to. Heller brings the summary on page 1 with page references. Underscores are mine:
Held:
1. The Second Amendment protects an __individual__ right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. Pp. 2–53.
(a) The Amendment’s prefatory clause announces a purpose, but does not limit or expand the scope of the second part, the operative clause. The operative clause’s text and history demonstrate that it connotes an _individual_ right to keep and bear arms. Pp. 2–22.
(b) The prefatory clause comports with the Court’s interpretation of the operative clause. The “militia” comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. The Antifederalists feared that the Federal Government would disarm the people in order to disable this citizens’ militia, enabling a politicized standing army or a select militia to rule. The response was to __deny Congress power to abridge the ancient right___ of individuals to keep and bear arms, so that the ideal of a citizens’ militia would be preserved. Pp. 22–28.
(c) The Court’s interpretation is confirmed by ___analogous arms-bearing rights in state constitutions____ that preceded and immediately followed the Second Amendment . Pp. 28–30.
(d) The Second Amendment ’s drafting history, while of dubious interpretive worth, reveals three state Second Amendment ___proposals____ that unequivocally referred to an individual right to bear arms. Pp. 30–32.
(e) Interpretation of the Second Amendment by scholars, courts and legislators, from _immediately__ after its ratification through the late 19th century also supports the Court’s conclusion. Pp. 32–47.
(f) None of the Court’s precedents forecloses the Court’s interpretation. Neither United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542 , nor Presser v. Illinois, 116 U. S. 252 , refutes the individual-rights interpretation. United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174 , does not limit the right to keep and bear arms to militia purposes, but rather limits the type of weapon to which the right applies to those used by the militia, i.e., those in common use for lawful purposes. Pp. 47–54.
Gadol > even after discounting all those concerns
I think this is the basic premise of halakha that one can’t judge based on one-sided information as you can’t even imagine what is missing. This is especially true in modern politics where messages can be taken out of context, secret proceedings selectively quoted. So, if you are interested in these proceedings, you need to ensure that you hear the other side.
an interesting question would be how do Israelis parent in USA and Americans in Israel – do people follow their minhagim or adopt to the local ones? or follow humros of both, as Pesachim recommends.
RebE, I think the source of this hilarious midrash is somewhere middle ages. I am not completely sure whether it is not a parody. It takes every nikuda of Xian story and finds an anti-explanation for it. Such as – Shimon could not eat their non-kosher meat, so he became ascetic, etc.
Ketubot 7: fetuses at the yam suf were signing shira and were aware of the miracle …
on the limiting side: there is a suggestion that someone could acquire an object on behalf on a fetus, but this position is rejected.Ubiq,
I am not insisting on “no limits” position, just pointing that tradition of mass ownership is very American and part of the constitution. Heller is 2008, gun ownership was 45% of households in 1973 and declined now to 30%, so Heller did not increase actual ownership at all.As to specific restriction, unfortunately everything is viewed as partisan, so even you’ll propose “reasonable” measures, the other side will see it as an attack and fight back. You need peshara, where each side gains something while the country moves to a safer/better place. Supposedly, that is what senators are doing (or should be).
Don’t write tuition checks for the year, and you’ll hear from them monthly.
Menachem, it seems that the majority thinks that it is avoda zara for goyim, and only minority that it is not. I once asked a co-author of a sefer on this topic about it – the book mentioned this kullah, the person said that this was his co-author’s chapter and he personally thinks it is AZ regardless.
I personally think that this discussion needs to possibly distinguish between different religious groups and look at current positions that might be different than at the times of Rambam. Also, we probably should look more at actions of non-Jews as more indicative what they stand for, rather than their religious affiliation that might be just an accident of birth that they feel they need to pay lip service to (like Jefferson).
jackk, thanks for the succinct updates. OM-! There WAS screaming.
What is unusual about these hearings that there is prosecution only and they apparently post selected quotes from videos, audios, and texts. At least, some of the media commentary quotes someone saying – or there was another phrase between those two .. I realize that this is R-s fault that they decided to boycott instead of fight, and is a good illustration of how USA would turn out were it to have Robespierre instead of Washington, and also halochos on choshen mishpat about prohibition of listening to one side without the other present.
Again, I am not pushing you out! Re people not listening, a simple answer is federalism where people are free to make laws in their states according to the local opinion, unless you are breaking some guardrails. You can’t say that there will be no freedom without a particular amendment, I am just urging some conservatism when arguing with historical success. If you think that there are good ways to limit violence do that at state level and hopefully others will follow. Yes, guns can be transported between states, but I would think that if Chicago would have a solution, we would notice that the only guns there are from Texas
ubiq > murders v mass murders
I agree that all murders are bad, of course, So, then, one should discuss statistics of those and what are possible reasons behind it and not substitute it with discussion of mass murders however horrific they are. As statistics show that we had 40% increase in just 2 years _possibly_ due to decrease in policing, then anyone who really cares should first restore the policing and save 40% of victims while you are looking at your longer-term plans.
ubiq > No complaining no trying to change the system? If you don’t like it leave!
you are right. I was just giving you etza tova to achieve your mental balance without fighting a (hopefully) impossible fight. Maybe this is why Canada is right here as a place where loyalists could always move.
And you are very myopic in your defense of France – even less than 100 years ago, they were occupied. Not fully their fault that they are in Europe, of course. Maybe this gemora applies to US: it is better to live in a new city than in an old one, as it has less sins accumulated.
ubiq > Can you think of any other such example, where you oppose a law being enacted because people wont listen ? (we do find this by Chazal lehavdil)
yes, a constitutional amendment can be passed to overrule any court decision about constitutionality. Or court can be packed – the reason it is rarely done is because it is not popular. Or a law can be passed that takes court jurisdiction away in specific areas.
I mean that he is not going to lose from his recent action – at minimum, he gets some publicity. As to twitter overall, why is he going to run into the ground? I understand when we doubt what politicians are claiming – most of them have no good track record, but Musk is a businessman with some successes, are you sure you know more than him? And if you do, I suggest you short twitter and later use earned millions to buy out YWN so that you could post anything you want. hope, you’ll remember me for good for this advise.
Also, previously US fracking worked as a threat for OPEC: if the price stays high for long enough, fracking will start and continue producing even when prices fall. So, OPEC had to keep prices below the limit viable for frackers and the limit was gradually decreasing due to increasing efficiency of fracking.
Right now apparently fracking industry in weakened and is afraid to invest. Most recent “helpful” move from President – EPA discovered that fracking affects ozone and might soon close most productive fracking areas based on ozone measurements. EPA dept head is apparently a guy who was in charge of developed a plan on accelerating transition from oil under Obama, so ozone is just a means to that (according to WSJ 2 week ago).RebE > More religious can be influenced from less religious. We should not hate them but we should avoid mixing also.
I agree. It is not easy. My initial concern is about observant people in general, not about lack of it. There is also an issue of separation between “frum” and “modern”. This usually means that “modern” have an expensive private school where they mix with non-observants who are looking for a good prep school with Jewish kids. I think what is mixing is a school with shomer shabbos parents where kids have an _option_ for college track, even if not Ivy league, but reasonably respectable quality.
Kuvult > I never understood this concept of “Tzadikim” owning or running their own school
There is such concept in Bava Basra – when butcher union decided to slash skins of one who was breaking their monopoly, they were blamed for making community decision when there was a talmid chacham in town. They shold have gone to him for a resolution. (I presume beis din would work also).
That is, Talmid Chacham as a first resort, and democracy as a second (politics at that time allowed guilds to behave as a community, we might consider this a monopoly).Community approach you mention is also good – if it works. Or, a competition approach that I mentioned. Each might work depending on size and structure of the community. Back to Bava Basra’s discussion of educational system, it seems that we just need to keep the goal – education – in mind (rather than teachers’ or other interest), and whatever works empirically should be used, and if not – discarded. Bava Basra lists approaches tried during Beis Mikdash sheni era: first fathers were teaching (seems like most preferred option) – but many were not educated enough (Lakewood was not built yet); then, they sent kids to Cohanim in Yerushalayim (2nd preferred – most inspired teachers in a most inspired location) – but not all fathers could drive there; 3rd best – regional centers where kids could walk themselves (that is, still somewhat higher quality teachers, less inspiring setting), but only teenagers would walk so far and they would not listen to the teachers (maybe because teachers/setting were not best?); and 4th best approach that worked – teach small kids at each location (maybe not best teachers, but small kids will listen) + ensure sufficient funding (small class sizes or extra teachers) + unlimited competition, as described already.
ubiq,
you are also offering a confused picture: mass shootings call a lot of attention and understandingly horrify people, but most murders in USA are not in mass shootings. There is a definite increase in the last 10 years, but it is still median number is 40 people per year (out of 15-20 thousand murders per year). These numbers are from Statista. Looked up some partisan anti-gun source and their numbers are slightyl higher: 100 people per year are killed in mass murders. Wiki listing seem to better fit the first source.So, if you care, murderes in 2020 increased dramatically – from 15 to 20K, highest percentage increase in 100+ years.
PS and 2021 had another 5% increase in murders. Pew and others list Floyd protests and subsequent decrease in policing as possible factors, “requiring more research”. So, this seems to be an argument that those who do not want to depend on fickle public to fund police, have a right to protect themselves.
note that this very specific question leads everyone to provide arguments that are fully explained by the writers’ political positions. Are you guys not bored simply repeating your beliefs?
FrumStat, thanks for the explanation. I guesa Musk is not losing either way – either he can get out of the losing deal, or he can generate publicity and sympathy for himself while taking twitter on. Maybe some reverse psychology here – before twitter libs were horrified by the prospect of being accountable for their work, now they can be happy that they are forcing Musk to buy them.
soosim > 90% of those that get my approval have annual budgets of under $1,000,000
not arguing with your conclusion, but this math statement is not good: “most” US businesses are small, that does not mean that most people work for the small businesses. Same here, a better number would be %-age of annual BUDGET that is going through small charities. And also what percentage you approve for each of the sizes.
not just “killed”, but did not encourage further development and production, leading to reluctance of businesses to invest. Also, reducing pressure on allies – allowing Germans off the hook from starting building LNG that T pressed them into; and offending Saudis – who are an only country in the world that can change supply by simply turning the spigot to the left or right. Also, for a failed policy of preventing Russian war – our idea was that the response has to be “proportional” so that even if Russia does a little mischief, they can still be afraid of further escalation. Instead, Russia read it as a sign of weakness.
Again, President does not control all events in the world, Hashem does. So, if he has done his due diligence: encourage oil production, steered allies, scared enemies, then nobody will blame him for whatever bas happens despite his efforts. But as he did not – only 29% believe his frantic effort to find who to blame.
menctch, I agree. In most cases in Tanach, Jews were granted victory when they fought AND were following Hashem’s will. Interesting though how here arguments on two sides of the spectrum converge – those on a liberal side who propose to fight with no arms, and those on the other side who claim that their learning is substitute for military effort. It seems that wishful thinking and self-deceit are non-partisan.
Yserbius > @Always_Ask_Questions I am far more scared of a bunch of yokels running around with murderous weapons than I am of our government turning on the people
Mi hu chacham .. But you somehow ended in a country with a constitutional system specifically built to prevent tyranny. If you don’t appreciate it, fine, you are free to suffer or move to a country with other priorities. It is hard to argue about the future and yes currently most developed countries look stable. But if you were to move from revolutionary America to revolutionary France, you would have lost your head several times over an average lifetime.
>> When the Non-Jews are too religious, it is dangerous to the Jews.
> in converse, when Jews aren’t religious enough,these 2 statements taken together is an actual quote from R Berl Wein.
Still, this seem to be a real-life sad observation rather than an ideal. Otherwise, we would say that Chinese system of suppression of all religions is ideal, especially as it does not have many Jews.
I would suggest cautiously support proper understanding of Hashem by non-Jews, still expecting bad things possibly happening. This happened, for example, when Protestants appeared in Germany and some Jews were optimistic about it.
Menachem > If children could go to different schools, get very different values and hashkofos, and still be taught the infinite value of every single Yid,
Agreed. But I think we still “naturally” tend towards hurtful separation. As R Berel Wein says: if a city has 100 Jews, he wants them to have 1 shul with 100 ppl, what do Jews do – they form 10 shuls with 10 people each, and they end up with 11 shuls, 9 people each …
As to school economics, separation begets monopoly and corresponding decrease in quality and choices and increase in price. Tzadikim in charge of school can mitigate some of it but the general trends exist. Purely theoretical, for example, the pre-war Litvish system, from my limited understanding, worked better. R Kamenetsky and R Ruderman had a 2nd grade Rebbe who once suspected R Kamenetsky of lying – and these Talmidei Chachamim blamed him for preventing others in their class to become Talmidei Cachamim. But this Rebbe was not part of the school system that promulgated bad middos – he was teaching just 2nd grade in his yard. So, presumably they got a great 3rd grade rebbe… So, if, by some organizational magic, parents had choices between individual teachers rather than “school systems”, probably parents will have a better match to their needs and lower price. Increasing competition rather than forming oligarchies that partition the market by catering to different population segments. Econ 101, as described in by Bava Basra.
Syag, I think he said ” too many kids to handle”. For some, it would start with 1 … His point seem to be that children in larger families are more independent, which is probably true. Still, I don’t think this fully explains the difference between US and Israel. Many US families with larger families just get themselves a larger van rather than sending kids on foot.
What is this dichotomy between modern and yeshivish? You are denying first group serious learning, or making it unaffordable and inappropriate by pushing them into expensive private schools, and you are denying second group a possibility of leading normal life earning relatively easy living. Any big school had 2 or more levels for some subjects, there is no reason some levels are college track and others are not, some are kollel track, and others are not. Kids should not be confused that some are going to be rabbis and some lawyers, and some both.
Menachem,. you are right, there is a limit to diversity, such as pluralistic schools that give options from reform to chasidut.. but if much of your school curriculum is spent on beards … I had kids in a chasidish school with many yeshivish teachers and almost none of them tried to impress kids into their derech, at least not to the degree that affected kids. And it is really good for the kids to know that there are other opinions. It may be personal decision to what degree you want to introduce it, but you should. It is really right there in my gemora: beit Hillel and beit shammai would marry each other by warning if someone would be a mamzer by the other opinion. Check yours, it might say the same.
Kuvult, sorry I misunderstood. I had a similar case where I called a chabad house where I wanted to stay as I had a conference on Friday. He was curious of my background and asked: are you a, b, or c? I answered: Jewish. He abruptly stopped questions, laughed and said, of course you are welcome to come. It was a wonderful place.
Jackk, if you walk close to a pit and wind pushed you inside, it is your fault that you didn’t maintain safety margin. Government that allowed Putin to threaten world economy is at fault – not only of us paying $5 gas, but enabling this conflict by demonstrating this weakness and enabling russkies
YS > gun ownership is very goyish
And what are you trying to convert them?! The famous Roman charge of discrimination in Jewish law was that Jew pays 50% for animals grazing, while non-Jew 100%. The reason is non-Jew has no mitzva to be pro-active in keeping his animals erliche. So, here, if non-Jews came up with an idea of universal gun ownership to protect their freedom in general, and property in particular, are we going to insist that they institute a beisdin instead and have a death penalty al pi shnei kosher eidim?!
Also, Musk lost like $100 out of $300B Tesla stock due to decreased value at the same time .. The only money saved was from $8B of Tesla stock that he had to convert into cash at the time of the deal, on which he saved $1-2B – more than the $1B Twitter breakup fee.
Kuvult,
a wonderful story – except your shock :). So, presumably this respect was not so visible during the lifetime … There are probably limits to publicly acceptable cooperation. When I was younger, I once offered a Rav a possible joint action with another nearby Rav who was involved in a related activity. He looked at me with a wise smile and said – Cooperate?! Baruch Hashem, we learned how not to impede each other … I analyzed the scene again and understood that they were actually doing that!Huju, alternative is to do teshuva for your vote and reimburse Syag for her gas expenses. You can also open a gas refinary or at least, invest in one. Maybe open an responsible investment fund, democrats for cheaper gas
Menachem, good questions. I think a school should have separate classes for those who are preparing for college and those who will go into learning/teaching. Making them sit in a common “math” class is torturing both. This can be partially augmented with online assignments. I would have no problem if school teachers halochos of beards, mentioning what the approaches are. I realize it would be tedious to be inclusive without getting ridiculous, but it is possible. I heard for example a Sephardi chacham routinely say Ashkenazim do this, we do that… Beit Hillel used to do this and even shulchan aruch is written this way … Really if you focus on classical Jewish texts, you can teach them without being divisive most of the time.
Don’t blame small organization for their size. Big organizations may have more resources to paint a good picture, including in tax forms. Small organization that you know does good work is better than a national one
Even if truth social will be a disaster, this is how it works. Try multiple (reasonably) risky ventures, and some of them will work out. This is how American venture capitalism work and it was spectacularly working in last 30 years, leading to American internet businesses dominating the world of European/Asian business models that tend to punish risks. As the story goes – if you fail in business, German banks will not give you a penny after that. In America, you can now say that you have “experience starting businesses” and have a higher chance of getting on a new deal. Trump applied the same approach to politics, and it is up to voters whether to focus on successes or failures,
Musk offered $44B for twitter. Stock is now 20% off from the time of the offer, that is, twitter lost $8B in value, while the break up fee is $1B. Whatever Musk’s plans are for improving Twitter, $7B is some money … So, the deal was doomed by the Biden’s market. Maybe Musk will make a lower bid, while still fighting the breakup fee.
For those who have partisan views on this, what would you do if you give a real estate offer with $1K down and then next week, price of RE goes down by 10%. Will you pay the original offer or accept $1K offer. what would be halachik considerations here? Is it an aveirah to not stand by your word, or do we say that this is a simple contract that has an option to buy or pay a penalty?
Syag > afraid of them learning too much from the wrong people.
Are you advocating for kids being sent to public or open-modern schools with no supervision? I think our whole educational system is built on shielding kids from bad influences and you seem to agree with that. Consider, as an illustration, a poster here who is a teacher and tends to feel very negative towards any derech except his. I can imagine him being my kid’s Rebbe and I would come very satisfied about his knowledge and middos based on a short discussion. At some point, i would notice that the kid is becoming less and less tolerant and becoming stubborn in his Jewish and political views. Ok, I guess I can wait until he grows into his 20s, and then, I can talk with him as an adult and train him into better thinking. I would feel the same if the teacher will have modern or zionist or chassidic biases.
Syag,
I shared some of my experiences to provide testimony for discussions of most important part of Jewish life, education. Saying that my opinions are wrong because they are based on my experiences does not add much to the discussion.Some of the value in that information is that some information comes out of the mouths of principals when there is a disagreement. So, you can assess whether this applies to your institutions without going thru the same painful steps. I absolutely do not think that all schools have these problems, or that the same schools do not have positive sides.
Kuvult,
I would also add that you don’t have to belong to any of the movements at all. Yes, there is a minhag of davening and wearing a kittel, but there is no reason why one needs to pledge allegiance to one way of learning and thinking. This is devaluing Torah and making it into a tool of building group-think.Maybe we are assimilated into American freedom of association and “factions” leading to a free market of ideas, so we also divided into groups competing ideologically. In these terms, separating by the style of the hat leads to market segmentation, every movement controlling their own institutions, same way Apple controls macs and iphones. From the POV of consumers, if parents see more schools acceptable hashkafically, there will be more competition and more value for parents, as intended in halakha (competition is limited in regular trade, but unlimited among teachers and perfume peddlers),
Menachem, one issue here that I start realizing: do we always have to have education filled with Jewish politics? On one hand, it is convenient to have teachers substitute for parents telling the kids that their rebbe/derech are the only kosher ones. On the other hand, in many places parents may not have exactly same shitot as a particular 5th grade rebbe. In this case, school is helping the lower part of the class whose parents can’t formulate their derech, but hurts the other half who have to work correcting the kid, or see their kids growing up as a carbon copy of the movement.. I find schools or teachers who “simply” teach Torah and derech eretz the best.
Women upstate volunteered.. in either case, men need to level to the idea that their role in the house is limited… (This is what we tell women regarding their role outside the house)
Search IRS site for charity form 990, it gives you basic statistics how money is spent. When you have a choice, support people whose work you know and respect. No reason to support “possibly legit” instead of the “best I know”. Same way you probably buy things for yourself