Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Syag, as an OT, what issues do you see with pepole overusing computers?
A yeshiva in LA that has bochrim enrolled in a public online school has 2 floors: learning floor is device free, the “general studies” floor has laptops to use for a couple of hours a day.
syag > glimmers of potential developmental damage
I agree with that, but one should also look at developmental advantages. It is still an open question which one prevails, and depends on how family handle devices and life in general. I am all for careful approach to new things, but I am sure people complained that because of the evil cars, people will forget how to feed horses, and phones will stop people from writing letters, etc.
On the damage side, there are approaches to manage – have devices in public room, defined time access, etc. On the advantage: if kids see parents using devices responsibly: for work, comms, learning, YWN :), you can expect them to do the same eventually.
In my humble experience, trying to fight inappropriate behaviors with early teens is a losing battle – smart kids can break through any filters you can create and they have more time on their hands than I do … But once they started using everything constructively, things turned. No need to teach kids chores – I can just ask them to google how to use the vacuum.
Benephraim > social science
Exactly, this is an even better example than medicine. Lots of gemorot list implicitly reasons for takonot – how people are expected to behave, and then sometimes change them when behaviors change.
From recent kutobos:
– a man needs to get some benefit from the wife during marriage so that he’ll feel up to redeeming the wife if she is captured. He does not need that for the daughter, as any father will surely redeem the daughter.
– a widow does not get married while she is nursing. If she becomes pregnant, she might lose milk, and we presume that the new husband will not extend enough effort to keep the kid alive/healthy.
– if a kid dies, maybe we still stop her from marrying? Why? Because if we don’t, what if a woman kills the kid in order to get married ASAP?! In fact, there was one that did exactly that. Resolution: that woman was crazy, normal women will not do that.So, most of that is being updated over time with changing social conditions. In fact, a lot of discussions in CR is about that, see college discussions.
Avira,
in US, you can say a brocha on the President or a Governor, probably bli shem.what is interesting to contemplate – during American revolution, UK was the biggest enemy, now US and UK (and other former British subjects) are closest partners. Sometimes, people fight those who are closest to them … We can learn from that.
> Why is the wife of a King called Queen, but the husband of a Queen is a prince?
there are 2 different systems: just one person being a king or queen (including British) or the one where both have Royal powers (as in fairtales)
Apparently 20% of 3rd candidate (R) did not mark up anyone as ranked choice, presumably some because they did not like Palin, and some because they did not get how this works.
Also, were the other R finished second, he would have been more likely to beat the D due to less empty protest votes.
Australians point out that their system is slightly different:
– you have to have a 2nd choice. Not sure this will be popular in US where you don’t force people to vote even for the first choice!
– only one candidate per party is allowed into the finals. This will help for some time, until parties subdivide.My suggestion: to use candidate agreements instead of voter rankings, the way Israelis divide partial knesset seats. That is, candidate themselves decide who is most similar to them and gives them the votes he “earned”.
So it sounds while the question itself is hard to answer, there are several groups that might have an easier path:
– women, who have no chiyuv in learning Torah
– Sephardim, who would not follow Rema
– those who mastered halochos and are ready for Philosophy/Astronomy/Kaballah, following Shach.The rest of us might not be ready for an Aristotle Yomi class.
RebE > The culture has changed so going to college currently became more dangerous than when going in my time but there is also Touro and online education available.
Right. To “more dangerous”, I think the danger reached a peak maybe 20-30 years ago with some decline lately, as you are saying – with increasing college option that do not focus on “college experience”. College went thru same transformation as air travel: people used to put on their “shabbos clothes” so to speak going to the plane, now they dress like they are in their bedroom.
when evaluating dangers, one should look at the recent experiences in similar circumstances: kids coming from same community and school; same type of college – local/campus, off/online, Ivy/technical/Jewish, technical v. humanity major, etc. Results seem to vary a lot based on these factors.
RebE, right, but still as Avira says, most say that, given that we have Torah, we do not need to rely so much on science to get to know Hashem.
But what would you say – if Rambam were to live now, would he still copy his astronomy from Aristotle, or would he first look at recent science? And if yes, would he go to Princeton, or would he just read up Richard Feinman’s multi-volume physics on his own? Or would he read this thread and say – no, I’ll stick with sefer hamitzvos.
PS interesting details: Rambam was in Fes when the best science was in the Medrasa there (some call it first university, before French and English). One presumably had to be Muslim to attend though, and Rambam was accused in Egypt that he used to be a Muslim, but was acquitted.
ujm, thanks for the (self) reference.
I am looking again at the reference to YD without even mentioning Shach there. I am very perturbed when someone quotes sources “from his side”. Especially when trying to defend Torah learning. This is self-defeating.R Moshe’s psak there is the most relevant in terms of time period. But look at his argument – you do not need college education for parnosa if you don’t want Cadillac. This was true at his time – when I think 10% of men went to college and even less of women. This is different now. Majority goes to college (obviously it is not same level as it was then) – and thus to live like an average person, you may need college. But this is off-topic as we are discussing learning non-Jewish subjects per se, not for parnosa.
Not to throw too much here, but there is also aspect of dependency on government. as R Shach paskened when Begin became prime-minister – do not take too much gov assistance and dismantle your own financial network. A different government will come, take this away, and you will have no funds. Could the same danger exist in US? If another Republican wave comes in and does another welfare-type reform, limiting assistance to volunteer non-workers, would the system survive?
DY,
this is well beyond Rambam, both in opinions and in issues, see above. I am not sure why is everyone so emotional here .. So many poskim discuss the issue, suddenly I am a hater by trying to get some clarity.As you see, I was trying to find sources supporting the position opposite to mine. There seems to be 3 hoops you need to jump thru:
1) learn by taking someone else’s money. You say, we are not machmir like Rambam, Shoin, be meikel. Even as Lakewood Vaad tries to use Rambam. But this is just 1 step2) Can we use non-Jewish public assistance in general.
You guys are saying that public assistance is not tzedoka. And this off-hand remark by R Henneman says same. My difficulty with this is that even accepting R Henneman idea, YD has a more general statement about not relying on people. Here I am more curious about halachic process rather than the end result. It seems like a reasonable sevora that as we live in the state that provides equal access to these services to everyone and we pay equal taxes, we should be able to use those services.3) and this is my biggest difficulty – can we use those public sources for poor in order to support learning.
Approach may depend on how we explain the issue (2) above and whether this explanation
extends to allowing using these funds for extra things. From my naive sevorah in (2), this does not look good – society dedicated funds to help poor people (or by R Henneman, took money from other people), and we are using it for a different reason. Maybe I am biased by Republican thinking (see Gingrich welfare reform), and Dems look at public assistance differently. I was told here that some public assistance does not require looking for work, for example. Possibly some does not, like medicaid and family-based assistance. I checked SNAP in a couple of states and it seems to require actually looking for work. Maybe we can say that non-Jews ignore their laws & regulations in practice and case workers are happily giving cash to everyone, and we can just follow their practice. I am not sure why I am trying to guess through this process. I am hoping that those who go for it, have asked shailohs and can explain how this is supported halachikally. And why being machmir in such issue is not preferable when possible. [ that is not in the times or places where we need to protect our society from shmad and such]I see papers saying that this will promote moderates, except that the papers are pretty naïve (looking one move ahead in a chess game) and promoted by people who mention “a need to fix the system” (aka as progressives). Also, Dems seem to prefer ranked choice more …
Here is what could happen:
currently extremists are eliminated (1) in primaries – extreme candidates will lose in the general, and (2) in the finals – 3rd party candidates are not popular because they take away from the major candidate on the same sidewith ranked voting, now multiple candidates will be able to run legitimately, gaining some voters that will go to a major candidate in ranking. So, there will be more and more incentives to have multiple candidates with extreme or very narrow platforms. There will be not just a Jewish candidate for President, but separate Ashkenazi and Sephardi ones! At the end, there will be no unifying candidates left and we will have a choice between 10 extremists … this will not happen in one election, but over time.
Maybe let’s go to basics – Hashem created the World and gave us Torah. It is accepted that there are two ways to appreciate Hashem – thru learning the secrets of the World and learning Torah. Some, not all, discussions of “Maase Bereshis” and related subjects seem to even include science secrets into Torah secrets.
And seemingly accepted answer is that while it is respectable for humanity to learn appreciate the World; for Jews, learning Torah has a direct access to Hashem’s knowledge, superior to the science approach. Not fully dismissing it though. That is why R Twersky recommends learning physiology to appreciate complexity and beauty of Creation – but not as a yeshiva seder, by yourself at night (this is probably what Rema means).
Now, a hard question – science (including social) has greatly improved from the time of Gemora and Rishonim, and not just summary of achievements but methodology. Say, Gemora in Ketubos 60 discusses how food affects baby development. We now can do medical experiments, statistical observations, double-blinded experiments to study such problems. Were Abaye and Rava to live in our times – would you think they’ll take new knowledge into account? I don’t know whether they’ll go enroll in a nutrition degree, or talk to a nutritionist, or read papers, or conduct their own experiments, but I can’t imagine them not taking this knowledge into account. So, why we do not have modern Abayes and Ravas writing recommendations to chatanim and kallot on what to eat?
a quick response to jackk, pardon the bird feeders,
I am not against learners, I am against using questionable financial means to achieve that. Not only we always had learners, we always had them working together with others. Babylonian yeshivas had 2 sedorim during the year for most people, then taking the rest of the year to review what they learned. People managed: one great amora (r Yaakov, I think) sent his son for the whole year and stayed home working the fields. After a year, he examined the boy and told him to stay working and went to learn full-time himself. We are no way richer, so we should surely have more full-time ehricher learners than we had during Gemora time or even in Volozhin (400 kids). pls respond in the other thread, no need to annoy Ymribat more than the bvord feeders.People elected Trump to do things over politicians did not dare, and he did not disappoint.
Nobody elected Biden for his bold vision. He was elected, as it says, for promising unifying and calm. I don’t think he lied. Probably the power went to his head, together with people around him (that he selected).
Indeed, learning Pi does not take much time in our days. Still, it might have been an elevated subject at some point.
But this does not mean that we can’t find more complex issues, for example in social policy and in psychology. See, for example, lectures by Yisroel/ Robert Aumann, Noble in economics, where he connects his work in game theory with Gemora. Note one comes up in a month in Daf in Ketubos 93.
And yet another reason to know modern life is to be able to apply Jewish approach to modern problems, from personal behavior to society. This is what, presumably, learning Bavli gives us – a method to solve future problems. See, for example, work by Israeli Supreme Judge Moshe Elon, trying to apply halakha into modern Israeli British-Turkish legal system. Whether this was , or can be, successful, is not relevant here, but just the effort to compare multiple legal systems is fascinating.
Avira, there is a psychological phenomenon that hinders your learning. It is called “crystallization” – if you get two pieces of information with a time lag, people usually absorb the first one and somewhat discount the second, see (Noble winner) Kahneman , Tversky. Same in Choshen Mishpat – you have to have both litigants in front you before listening to them.
You probably started learning the sugya not going from Sh’A, but by learning Birkas Shmuel with his strong opinion. After that, you are either explaining away others (starting with Shach) or declaring them apikoirosim. It is tiring to go point by point and review them all – why kabalah mentioned by Shach is there for a different reason than math and 100 of other of your tirutzim.
You would be better off learning a sugya by looking at all rishonim and opinions that you disagree with before trying to explain them away.
ok, interesting, so halochos of courtyards do not apply to stam neighbors who do not share a yard?
you may also look at Ketubos 60 that discusses how children can be affected .. these are mostly food, but it starts with a mill – whether it is sounds, vibration, or pollution. Thinking on a good side, maybe children will be good in music.
Avira, thanks for the ref. to YD. How do you understand Shach there? He appears to interpret the chochma as studying esoteric subjects, including Kabbalah as opposed to, or before, halakha.
A couple of notes comparing with modern “chochma”:
1) By Rashba, it would be OK to study anything not avoda zora as long as it is not a fixed occupation. I would say, someone who has enough money to live and then makes studying Chinese philosophy his daily routine after shacharis would qualify. But would you say that taking a semester class is not temporary?
2) Often, one can gain indirect understanding of Torah and ability to argue for it from studying surrounding materials. I think R Ovadia Yosef explains Rambam this way – that all philosophy that Rambam learned was for the glory of Torah. Take an example of someone who works in academic environment and meets western-education public. He needs to know a lot not just to protect himself from their argument but also to explain them Jewish positions.
3) A lot of current “education” is really job training. 99% of professors are not aware of Aristotle, unless this is their direct line of work. The liberal stuff that is being injected in every subject is not “chochma”. Propaganda may be more dangerous than chochma, but off topic for this thread, I think.
Avira,
pre-modern science was very different. While there were experiments here and there, a lot of “chochma” was philosophical speculation that, in their view, did not require experimental support.It well may be “chochma” could be different when used by different authors and in different context,
so if you claim that Rashba includes math and science here, which might be, you need to show that.> rishonim say it, like the rashba and rivash above –
you mean to say that rishonim Rashba abd Rivash say that, other Rishonim – not necessarily.
I am not wondering how ranked choice works, I am wondering how it affects politics.
Democracy is shaped up by the election rules. American system generally pushes people towards broad coalitions and more moderate candidates, with additional debates within the parties. Israeli system allows 120 members from 30 different parties, allowing for multiple coalition perturbations depending on the issue of the day. It may be that different systems suit different people, or times, better. You just can’t divide Israelis into two camps. Some may be right-wing on religion but socialist on welfare. Others are left-wing on religion but right-wing on arabs, etc.
So, if this ranking will change who gets elected, I am for caution.
Ok, so you are haver with the neighbor. Sit down together and learn a couple of sugyot in Bava Basra and then decide:
1) when two houses are across each other and one roof is higher and provides a view of the lower one. The lower one can force the other one to build a fence to prevent looking! That is, it is up to the one who is a mazik to fix the problem.2) what kind of noises can neighbors in a courtyard object to?
Avira, what exactly are you referring to in YD 246?
huju + 1. Peshara before din. Maybe offer to relocate the bird feeder further away and help doing it.
Any professional job requires further education while yo are working. Whether you are a teacher, a lawyer, a software developer. Often, you need it to just keep up with recent developments. During Rema times, some would just read Galen (and, according to a story, Vilna Gaon rejected an eye doctor like that). In our time, there is so much new, and also you will want to check your own experience against knowledge of others.
Some can do it on their own, others go take classes. Just make sure, you are not wasting money and time and that you are doing your job honestly, that is to the best of your abilities. Not my words. I once attended a talk from a Rov, who also worked as a professional. Students asked him all kind of questions that they could not ask “learning Rovs” – how do you keep kashrus, take off yomim tovim, etc. He started with “before I answer your questions, I want you to know the first halakha – you owe 8 honest hours of work to your employer”. (this includes halochos like you can not take a night job if you will be tired at your main job).
I am no English teacher. I tested google docs: it does not like “My friend and I”, but it has no problems with either Voters, including I, and including me.
> I understand zivug sheni as the second marriage not missed marriage
RebE, I agree with the rest. I think at least Meiri understands this as early marriage until ~ 20, after that, you may get “what you deserve”. I recall a discussion of possibly missing a zevug. Maybe if you are less than 20, you do not have much time to miss it: your parents find it for you, and, unless it is a gross error that is obvious, most likely they do it right. After all, parents get a siyata d’shmeya naming their children – how many people complain that their name does not fit them? not many. Ok, you have a second name just in case. So, maybe parents get a similar help min hashamayim when doing a shicuh?! just a sevorah, I don’t have no sources.
> Why not move to Baltimore and buy a huge lot
From what I know of Baltimore, you also have to be at the gun shot distance from your neighbor at least. Maybe, a better idea is to move to Chicago, and then your wife will forget about bird feeders and worry about other crimes.
Amil > Alaska voted for ranked choice voting.
Indeed. I don’t think that most voters (me included) understand how such voting will change elections. It is not that simple, as it will change how candidate position themselves, where money goes, etc. And, of course, after you change and something goes wrong, it will be hard to change back.
So, we should watch carefully the small number of places that use the new system and see whether it will affect voting system to the worst, such as enabling more radical candidates through. I am very much a Perotist following “if it aint broken, do not fix it”. Some may not like certain US policies, but American electoral system is probable the most stable among modern democracies, maybe second to UK that was not pure democracy for a long time though.
Can our dems friends explain how they relate to:
1) Biden breaking his promise that he will provide relief “up to 10K” per person, as the actual help seems to be 2-3 times larger. He actually tried to make it look like 10K by dividing it in 2 parts – 10k for everyone under XK, plus 10k for pell granters, plus less payments for everyone under XK, plus dismissal of interest for 2 years already.
2) Biden cheating Manchin – the BBB was reduced by a trillion due to inflation worries, took a year to agree to that, even called it “inflation reduction” (i.e. we are not increasing it). but then he spends another $0.5-1T on student loans. Can Manchin still get mad or is it too late?
3) Biden spokesman claiming that this action “is paid for” because overall government spending is less this year as there were huge Covid expenses. Obvious joke, and also at the same time reducing covid spending, such as stopping sending free tests.
if you insist – the first one was “gadol” as he was involved in billions of dollars of questionable transactions. The second could actually be a gadol if he knowingly risked his life to protest. It is also possible that he made that statement trying to save his company from sanctions, but had crossed some other criminals. So, he is sofek gadol.
having a workshop in a courtyard is a problem. Neighbors can not object to a teacher who has noisy children coming, but can object to other types of noise and smell. How is bird feeder different if it causes noise or other artifacts? Would be the same for a noisy pet.
> there is no Shidduch crises Hashem already has every persons zivug
and I am not hungry because Hashem provides food for everyone! There is a lot of fineprint in Sotah – if you miss your original zvug, then you get another one according to your deeds. Even for the pre-ordained, it says so-and-so is for the daughter of so-and-so! So, a boy presumably has a choice of sisters (who may be way different ages) and sisters have a set of potential chatanim to compete for! (unless there are commentaries that explain this Gemora differently)
> MRS. SEMINARY GIRL
I applaud her for continuing learning after marriage, but could you please take her out of the dating pool for the sake of sholom bayis?!
> decided that my wife is an adult, and she can work it out with her neighbor herself.
so, the question is who needs to deal with the issue? Here are arguments that husband should:
Housing is mentioned as husband’s obligations (source: Ketubot). Rambam’s Hilchos Ishut ch 12-13. 13:5 says that he needs to provide according to his wealth. So, if she is used to live in a quiet house and he can afford such, one would think she can insist on that. But if he can’t afford it (which is quite possible with current prices), then he does not have to. Note here that for kids only minimal necessary things need to be provided, does not have to be according to his wealth.
Rambam also says to provide the wife appropriate clothing to visit her father, wedding, funerals, but not more than 1-2 times a month! So, maybe her house needs to be livable then!
13:15 Both spouses can object to bad neighbors and force a move. (can we call a bird feeder a bad neighbor because he is not considerate of others?) Also, both can object to in-laws or anyone visiting.
13:18 Husband can not force move from pleasant to unpleasant surroundings (and other way around!) So, definitely, one can not move to the bird feeder!
Also, husband is obligated to pay for long-term medical care. So, it is just a smart idea to deal with the issues before the wife goes completely bezerk!
Let’s reverse this and take an opportunity to contemplate whether we ever fed the birds but annoyed people, or more generally did something what we thought is a groise mitzvah, while not being sensitive to others. R Avigdor Miller mentions walking early morning for slichos, slamming the door, reminding a nearby widow that her husband used to go… R Salanter – doing long divrei Torah preventing servants from having shabbos rest
There seems to be a new epidemic in the world – a CFO of a large companies jumped out, several days ago a Russian oil company CEO who said something about the war. The first one was in yichud situation with his wife, the second presumably with some men he did not know.
okok, indeed, it is a fair question, as the husband needs to provide for the wife, she can claim that the place with unbearable sounds is unlivable, and he is indeed chayav to fix it. A simple, sad, way some towns did this – use chemicals to kill the bugs and then there will be no birds.
Seriously, try noise-canceling headphones. There are different types. See if they will help.
> nobody has deemed benefits to be tzedaka.
You are right. R Henneman dismisses the idea that non-Jews support poor w/ tzedokah. To clarify: my problem with that is that Yoreh Deah that in one place uses the word tzedoka, but in others more general “depending on people”. And, again, all of that is about people who are in financial difficulty they can not get out of by themselves. Even that seems to be a problem. Not about taking money for poor and use them to support learning. The source about learning all seem to allow it when taken from Jews for learning. I am not able to find a source that allows using public assistance funds for poor to use them to support learning instead. Does anyone else have such sources?
get rid of bird feeders or of crazy wife?
check, or test, whether ultrasound anti-mice devices work also on birds. Young kids are able to hear the ultrasound. (Malls sometimes put annoying sound to get rid of teenagers). So, depending on the wife’s age, might work on her also.
Sephardim came to US before Ashkenazim did … But I agree that latest Sephardi arrivals benefited a lot of Ashkenazi assistance. As R Kamenetsky said at R Ouerbach’s yeshiva – Moshiach will come from there because they had top classes in Ivrit, enabling Sephardim to attend.
No doubt, when Sephardim got thrown into modernity, they encountered same problems Ashkenazim did 200 years before that, and Ashkenazi experienced helped them. Ashkenazim lost way more people to Reform and communism. That does not mean that Sephardim need to abandon their own Torah.
I am trying to understand R Heinemann’s position. Granted, it is an off-hand remark during a lecture, but he seems to be pretty confident in this. His two arguments are: (1) non-Jewish motivation is not tzedoka but self-interest (2) government is not baal tzedoka but uses taxes. Note that he is seemingly talking about getting tzedoka in general, not for learning.
First, Shulchan Aruch (YD 254-255) says it is osur to get tzedoka from non-Jews in public – unless he can be assisted by Jewish or private non-Jewish funds. Not sure whether SNAP etc are “public”. Is getting assistance public? maybe not, especially as there are now electronic cards rather than visible food stamps, for those who remember. Still, S’A does not hang to the word “tzedoka”. YD 255 is way more expansive – one should roll in pain (tzaar) rather than depend (itztarech) on human beings (briyut), this expression repeated twice. This does not seem to allow parsing motivation of givers, whether they are Jews, idol worshippers or bnei Noach, whether it is a private donor or law-based system. Not sure if even Yang’s $10K passes this.
YD 256 follows that saying that those who deceive “haam” will later need actual charity (lashon Rambam). Now, here the words are tzedoka and “am”, so we are talking about Jewish tzedoka. Would this mean to permit “getting around” rules for public assistance? Would need a reference for that. Also, several commentaries of YD 254 mention “hillul Hashem”, and it is no doubt that even rare cases of Jews accused or arrested lead to that.
To summarize, “there are those who allow”
1) non-Jewish assistance for those who need it and
2) getting community support for Torah learning (shevet Levi)so even if you are meikil on both of these, you still need (3) to equate “those who need it” with “support of Torah learning”. Vaad position above asks for Jewish public to support learning, not the non-Jewish, or for non-religious community in Israel.
So, there are 3 difficult steps here, each requiring a lot of justifications and kulos. Would you eat hot dogs that have so many levels of kulos?
Syag > , finally a possible source for the animosity
I really, really have no personal issues here, just concerns for klal isroel. I am talking about those in the community, and their wives, who try to justify that they are stopping being “full time learners”.
> But why is it your business?
Because it is our Torah (as an am haaretz said to R Yannai) and our community. And I want it to be better, like each of us. So, we can disagree what is the right direction, and it is ok, and we can discuss this here, but questioning motivation is just silly. You could spend this time in finding better arguments for your position.
I am still looking for an explanation why is it so magically important for a mass of people to be “full time” learners instead of “80% time learners” and be machmir according to Gemora and Rambam. And I am sure there are some who go this way and they should be fully supported by the community and not feel like a failure because they work.
> You don’t seem to worry about the purity of your heros who push college and higher education?
I am all for being careful with college. And I talk about that with my modern friends, and with kids. Most concerns are about behaviors and also indoctrination. I think most of us here agree on this so there is no raging debate.
Furthermore, if someone is studying engineering wrong, then he will become a mediocre engineer. As long as he does not design a bridge that will fall, he will have a poor career. When someone goes into learning a wrong way, he then becomes a teacher of your and mine kids.
how about simple physics:
when you hear a man and a woman, voices mix, and there are some, like yakish, who use it for kulos.
I am not aware that seeing both men and women inappropriately dressed lead to any kulosLakewood Bays Vaad quotes Rambam that support learners who are willingly supported by community.
We also learn from this that it is ok to rely on Rambam, even when he disagrees with Chazal. This contradicts some T’Ch here.
Of course, we know that there is another Rambam that, on the surface, contradicts the above. I am a little puzzled why the Bays Havaad skips it. They could probably explain the stira somehow.
Syag > Why do you have such animosity toward full time learners?
I think it was a right emergency measure after WW2 to send everyone who could, or could not, to learn as much as they could. I think the emergency time has passed, we have large communities that need to do all mitzvos in the Torah and we need to make learning pure. Those who want to be so holy that they do not have time to earn a living, should find sources of money for that: sponsors, yissachar/zevulun contracts, fathers-in-law, wives and children who want to work, whatever it takes.
Syag > You posted two megilas explaining that govt money is NOT tzedaka
Yes, I search and found support for your positions, as you did not bother to do it yourself. I’ll look further to analyze this.