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> wrong-way driver in I-95
I am trying to stay on the sidewalk rather than risk driving the wrong way. That is, I am not participating in partisan activities. I may sound like a partisan to you as I am addressing several specific points where I think community is going in a wrong direction, but that does not make me a liberal goon, I hope. (My kids said that they have to assure their friends that I am not a liberal because I am pro-mask).
Ctlawyer,
you are being modest. You said before that your 5th generation come from Germany where he was in big business. It may not mater exactly when someone arriving has funds with him, but rather education and attitude. I had relatives who lived through tumultuous times, building and losing businesses for economic and political reasons, and the attitude was a more valuable inheritance to the next generation than a specific accumulation.Sometimes you can hear family history in little things. I heard, amazed, from a hoshuve (MO) Rav discussing an eruv and mentioning that his family lived directly opening to a huge highway at the entrance to a big American city. I am pretty sure that, whatever financial circumstances are, people coming from some families would get a house where kids do not run out of the house on the huge highway, eruv or not.
RebE, my apology, I am not against davening for neighbors. and not neighbors too.
RebE > we only see the big picture from hindsight.
Absolutely. One example from an auto-biography. Two cousins, with their families, were in Soviet-occupied part of Poland in 1939. Soviets requested everyone to get Soviet citizenship “or else”. One cousin refused, they – and other likewise Jews – were arrested in June 1940, exiled to Far North. They were able to build up and prepare for winter, and after two horrible winters, when General Anders started forming Polish army, Soviet let Polish citizens to join, they travelled to Persia and survived (not many did, of course). Ethnic Poles were treated better and given another 6 months. So, when they were exiled to the same area 6 months later in the middle if the winter and were left to their own devices, they had nothing prepared for winter and they all died. The second cousin accepted Soviet citizenship and was allowed to stay in the same area. One yer later, Nazis came in and killed everyone.
ujm, of course, especially early on, as modernity came there early and Jews were unprepared (nobody was). This discussion is specifically about a starting point with R Hirsh’s observant followers v. Eastern European Jews at the same time. One can say this is not a fair comparison – R Hirsh is dealing w/ a group after many non-observant people left, while Eastern European Jewry at that included everyone, including future Maskilim. Still, R Dessler’s position seem to be that he respects Frankfurt approach in producing observance, but not great Torah, while his anonymous opponent disagrees with the latter. Maybe R Dessler is under-counting relative success of EE Jewry given that he saw loss of their observance with his own eyes …
We can also see that post-war yeshivos did not replicate pre-war, or emulated R hirsh, moved to a third model of popular Torah learning rather than just focusing on raising gedolim, and had tremendous success along that path.
Syag > We are not in control.
R Avigdor Miller brings another example of someone opening a door and inviting a beggar into the house, giving him a cup of tea. Then, while beggar asks for a second cup, and baal habais goes to get it, the beggar throws hot tea into a baby’s face. How does this hashgaha matches the chesed?! Simple: he did an aveira leaving a baby with a crazy person and is punished for that. Sometimes, we diminish our understanding of Hashem by claiming that things are beyond understanding.
As to OP, if this were happen with CTLAWYER, who habitually arrives 10 minutes early to be on time, and still through a strange coincidence, he would be late and all the above happened, I would also see solely hashgahat pratis here. This is not to deny that if this were to happen with me, I would claim the same defense! Maybe my own shortcomings called me to notice the problem, as it usually happens.
Tuna, I was paraphrasing Berdichever who said to a Jew running “after parnosah” – maybe parnosah is in the opposite direction? Just making sure that this wonderful event would not become your excuse to be late, expecting Hashem to fix your mistakes
to compensate for the ruined joke, R Twersky talks about a miser who asked a Rav what to do with a quarrelling wife who does not accept a divorce. Rav quoted Gemora saying that an unfulfilled tzedoka pledge is punished by the early death of the wife. He says – great, goes pledges, comes back – she is not dying. Rav explains – this is supposed to be a punishment, not a reward! Go buy her gifts, talk nicely to her … does that, comes back – she is now very nice to me! Do you still want her to die? No! Then, quickly run fulfil your pledge!
> one wife is half the punishment?
not necessarily, but two as a package (with ensuring interaction between them) surely is!
Gadol, ya, this is simple mnemonic to get used to July 4th – $4 dollars. Thanks, Brandon.
So, if you are not helping your neighbor but davening for him, it is helpful for both. Good to know.
I don’t see high hostility from MO to kollel in my area. some interact and come to learn, others – ignore and have their own learning. We might be an outlier as MO community is mostly academic and medical, not business or finance or other argumentive professions 🙂 Where I see problems is from people arriving from “in town”, mostly into professional teaching, showing hostility to MO or anything that is not “their way”. Mahybe we are getting those who were rejects in their local educational system.
Avram, a good point on yetzer hara, but I am not sure why the lame excuse “we are not perfect”. Our community has no problem on taking on various chumros, but suddenly in the matters of lifestyle and integrity, we are looking for kulos. I am thinking of incremental measures that can help raise the standards, such as using modern business methods to monitor what is happening in schools or get feedback from kollel families. To mix the subject: while I was going around at the start of covid, trying to explain with a CO2-meter shuls that windows need to be opened, one local public school system has these measurements online in real time .. I know measuring learning is not as easy as CO2, but still …
Yserbius, thanks for restoring my faith in humanity.
Jackk just fantasized about a possible way Trump could have changed election results in a completely legal way, using elected representatives and judges. You should have posted this earlier, so tha we could have passed it to T.
modern > I was never supervised by parents after kindergarten.
This is a statistical mistake. You see how many people turned out well after not being supervised/going to bad schools/etc – except you do not see those who got into an accident, went with wrong people, intermarried…
Amil, I am afraid this is not a troll, or a very sophisticated one. She had previously posted that she abuses her children less than her parents did.
jackk,
I think you are projecting values from individual nuts to Republicans overall. I am sure we also over-react to the Democratic nuts. And when you ask your questions in a reasonable manner, people do answer. Some are just too emotional – “deny pandemic” while ignoring unprecedented pro-active spending on vaccines is pure ungratefulness. “R- love Russia” despite decades of anti-Soviet/Russian stances by most R-s. Yes, W found soul in Putin’s eyes and T asked him for Clinton’s emails, but both administrations were populated by anti-Russia/China policy makers. “more americans dying” – while US life expectancy started decreasing first time after WW2 under Obama (except 1993). Just try to formulate a claim that does not sound ridiculous and maybe people will talk to you.What is the story with posthumous divrei torah? Are they reprints of old ones? quotes from seforim? Or thoughts of the current generation? I picked up latest Toras Avigdor and found an interesting and relevant discussion of Trotsky, but then the mehaber says that he thinks Trotsky was _probably_ killed in Mexico and his last moment was “with a gun to his temple” – and still did not do teshuva. The Rav was 30+ years old when Trotsky was killed, so he surely knew that the guy was killed in Mexico and with an axe. I am sure he made a couple of jokes about it. so, who is actually writing this?
And it made me think that Trotsky was killed in such a sudden way to maybe prevent him from attempting teshuva?
Dems tend to think about their social priorities, relegating other goals to “good enough” – oil prices not too high today, Russia is not starting WW3 … Eventually, they mis-calculate, inflation stops being “temporary” and everyone is focused on what was the last mistake that caused the disaster. The strategic error came earlier when focusing on wrong things. Flood the world with cheap oil, surround Russia with NATO troops, make our economy strong and enemies weak, and then there will be enough money for all social equity and green innovations. As it is now, Republican administrations accumulate wealth and strength and Dems are spending them.
yaakov, why do we need everyone under oath just because someone is outraged? why not Hillarsy Clinton under oath – is it true or not that she attempted battery of a sitting (laying & lying) President with an electrified weapon (throwing a lamp at the President)? What did President Obama mean when he promised more flexibility to Russia on a hot mike?
RebE, doea tefilah works without hishtadlus?
This is like a Russia’s tactic – first try to encircle half a country, if this does not work: encricle a village a declare victory. Here, we have gone from trying to size the government to attempted seizing the SUV wheel from a designated driver via disputed hearsay. I would say, even if there were kosher eidim on both sides, the wheel stays with the secret service by chazokah.
common > college grads are almost never the opulence worshippers
indeed. As Wall Street hustlers asked economists – if you are so smart, why are you not wealthy?
To which economists relied – if you are so wealthy, why are you not smart?average college grad is reasonably secure in his job (unemployment < 1% over many years) and he can think about other things. Hopefully, learning, but often – vacays, of course. A hustler is not secure in his future, so he runs after the next deal. He also has no competitive advantage in skills, so he needs to compensate wit zerizut and boasting, hopefully not by dishonesty.
I could not find R Moshe’s speech yet, but let’s presume for a second that you quoted without distortions. The argument seems to be that most Yidden can reliably (without miracles) earn enough for honest parnosah without college. The downside is time wasted from learning Torah (not sure, is this about time during college or occupation during the rest of the life). Let’s apply this to our times:
most importantly, what percentage of people went to college: 1960-80 had tremendous growth from 8% to 16% of population > 25 y.o. graduated from college (and 40% to 78% high school). Currently 38% of population graduated from college. Now a lot of this is from women (male enrollment went from 3 mln in 1970 to 5 mln in 1990 and 7 mln now, women – from 3 mln in 1970 to 6.5 mln in 1990 to 10 mln now), but still …
So, if we presume that education correlates with wealth, then R Moshe says – you don’t have to be like top 10% – and this is obviously true for 90% that will not be and may be true for those who want to be in 10% but can live without it. In our times, this is saying – you don’t need to be like top 40% .. I wonder what this number will be if you only count areas where R Moshe thinks it is proper for a Yid to live, presumably area between Queens, Stamford, Monsey and Lakewood.
So, to normalize R Moshe’s position to our times, it would be – you don’t have to go to Ivy League (1% of total college population), or even top 30 colleges (7%) So, Touro is OK. YU (in about top 100) is marginable – given that it has Torah learing also).
R Yitzhak Adlerstein brings aq quote from Michtav Me-Eliyahu vol.3 pgs 355-360. – R Hirsh’d system in Germany produced observant Yidden but no Talmidei Chachamim. Eastern Europe with Torah-only education produced a lot of Talmidei Chachamim but at the expense of tremendous drop out rate from observance. An anonymous wrote a response in 1960s questioning the downside of German system:
The upshot of all this is that the claim that the Frankfurt approach was not capable of transforming gifted students into geonim in Torah is erroneous. It is certainly true that gifted students suffer no loss of talent by engaging in increased study. Thus, quite the contrary to the extent they increase their secular study, their minds are broadened and their Torah studies are deepened proportionately, so long as they truly study for the sake of Heaven. On the other hand, a student lacking in intelligence, who is also denied exposure to secular study, will hardly grow in Torah and become a distinguished gaon due to that denial alone. R. Baruch of Shklov [the talmid of the Gra]…states: “There are Jews who are bereft of intelligence and secular study, which is precisely why they denigrate the wisdom and knowledge they lack. Moreover, they hurl accusations of heresy against the wise, so that they be stigmatized and viewed as outcasts by the masses… Had not R. Samson Raphael Hirsch established this approach for us, we would not dare to expropriate it without the prior approval of the roshei ha-yeshiva and gedolei ha-Torah of our generation. But since R. Samson Raphael Hirsch merited producing several generations…all who follow this path walk in a well-trodden path and drink from a well dug by experts. Those who, for the sake of Heaven, oppose this approach must admit that such a ban on secular study in our time and in our countries [i.e. in contradistinction to Israel, as he writes later] would be a “decree that the majority of the community could not comply with… It seems to me that both [i.e. the approach that allows secular study, and the one that does not] educational approaches are well-grounded in the sources, and both are essential for the continued existence of the Jewish people in our time. So it shall remain until the redemption takes place.
> working person” is someone who learns 8 hours a day
a very relevant quote, even if not fully accurate. Rambam says MT 1:12 “for example” and mentions “baal umanut” – a craftsman, a person skilled/educated in a profession. Reading between lines, this seems first like his ideal case that he wants people to strive for. He is not bringing an example of a merchant traveling or a sheep-herder … So, it seems that he will also not approve so much of people working overtime and then sleeping through classes. As to actual halakha, he requires a set time both during day and during night, without specifying amounts. Books depicting pre-war Lita mention how poor Yidden will change their look into a more dignified one by the end of the work day when they go to shul and then learn with kavanah between mincha and maariv (satisfying above Rambam) after a tiring day.
Another difference might be how society views images at a time: a golden calf was a sensation, but might not have been in Manhattan with all the gold on display … During early internet times, I was helping a Rav to make a webpage and a mailing list. We had an idea to put a picture of the family but Rebetzin said her kids will not be on the “Net” for vague ayn hara reasons. Nowadays, when everyone has their pictures on instagram, things are different.
RebE > היו עיניך רואות את מוריך you should see your teacher or rebbi.
So, this means zoom and video classes better than phone or recordings? And oen should actually look at the Rebbi during zoom class?
As Avira says, this may depend on what the purpose is. A testimony from some Yerushalmis whom I encountered at the Wall: Scandinavian tourists wanted to make a photo with them, they flatly refused in broken English. When tourists left, I enquired about their view. They responded in excellent English (maybe they did not want to talk in modern Hebrew) that the tourists will take photos to their church, but if I want to make a picture that might inspire some American Jews, they’ll be happy to oblige.
if you see certain kashrus issues as chumra rather than halocha and you are in financial difficulties (get tuition discounts, collect government tzedoko, your wife has to work, can’t afford a good esrog, etc) – would it make sense to get hatarsas nedorim and save on chumros (if you saw a Sotah lately and feel like you need nazrut to save your neshomo – take cheaper chumros instead).
How do you know that you di9miss 5 guys on the previous train 🚂?
> , there was no defendant, no prosecutor, no lawyer defender and no judge either.
> Besides, there are a gazillion exceptions to the hearsay rule.
~~~~~~~
and this is why they are called _hearings_yes, every wife needs her own house. Do people learn marital halochos before the chuppah?! Maybe you need to learn in a Sepahrdishe place, their Rabonim know these halochot better.
so, either the husband needs to qualify for 2 mortgages, or the 2nd wife needs to come with her ketubah from her previous marriage.
> Do kollel men or Torah teachers not have wives?
Indeed, these exact words is what a Mussar rebbe’s wife whispered to his father when he attempted a mussar shmooze after Shabbos Maariv 🙂 The difference is that the working man’s wife can tell her husband to go work harder, look for another job. Wife of a person with limited work prospects has it harder, especially as she initially signed up for it. Let’s even say, she is ready to continue live in poverty provided he learns, but she sees that he lost interest and is biding his time. Of course, she can read him some mussar, but can she make him to love learning again to be worthy of her hardships?!
> if we were talking about a family struggling with the idea of taking their kids out of public school to put them into a frum school
you are right. For me it was shocking because the parents are both learned and at least one has great middos. They understood what the kid needs but felt trapped. I would be indeed less shocked knowing what some am haaretz would do. I think you are kind-off see my position as corrupt learners v. honest amei haaretz. Not so. I am suggesting that learnt Jews should grow in their middos (and learning) not that they should lower themselves.
I think I posted one part in a different thread about comparative ethical behavior in chinuch and general jobs. A lost post, $1 reward for finding it …
another aspect – comparative effect. An accountant may lose some money; a doctor – someone’s life, teachers/Rabbis – someone’s neshomos … To invert a famous comparison that respect to a Rav is more than to a Parent: giving olam habo v. haze: then a bad teacher is worse than a bad parent; if a mother is tired and does not want to feed the kid, or father watches TV all evening, the kid only loses out some olam haze; but a teacher who is not inspiring loses the kid.
To admit, a part of current system of keeping low salaries is designed to only keep dedicated teachers. As one principal argued to me that his teachers might make mistakes, but at least they are not malicious: “they are not here for the money”. This might have worked earlier, but now there are so many people who do not have other job prospects that they are going into chinuch out of necessity. Again, maybe OOT gets it worse and things are different in the heart of Jewish civilization.
market forces: seems that easier to be an honest doctor than teacher. I am aware that I am contradicting R Salanter here: someone said that he is burnt out in shechita as he is afraid of aveiros and wants to go into business. R Salanter said that there are more potential aveiros in business.
Still, most jobs in free countries are competitive and regulated. So, outside of actual fraud, most people do their jobs decently even if their yetzer harah tells them otherwise. At the same time, “Jewish” jobs are more protected, medieval style, and hinge on diligence of principals and Rabbis. When raising questions about chinuch, I often heard “trust me” or “trust Hashem”, in one extreme case, “where else are you going to go now”. I quoted already a Rav here who was told to trust Hashem on who the 6th grade teacher will be next year, replied that his check will meanwhile be in Hashem’s escrow .. R Kamenetsky and R Ruderman recalled their 2nd grade Rebbe and blamed him that “only” two of them became T’Ch from their class … I am not saying that everyone is like that, H’V. I am saying – the system allows that. There are good reasons for this, as our current system is an emergency response to Shoah and assimilation and a lot of good results were achieved, but we are living in this emergency for 80 years already.
Maybe we can think how we can introduce right social measures – accountability, transparency, competition – to make systems work better. This is not new – halakha specifically allows unlimited competition in chinuch to make it affordable. That might mean, for example, breaking up big schools into smaller classes; online options; making schools less ideological so that people can choose different school without fear of indoctrination into another hashkofa; “rate my rebbe” .com, publishing test results (both Torah and secular) …
but I digress. The relevant point here is that the less competitive nature of chinuch allows for less ethical behavior. Allows, nit requires, but some people might take advantage.
This is a good question on difference between Torah and general jobs, thanks to both of you for raising it. Again, maybe I am too sensitive here to the holiness v other jobs, following rambam .. let me try to clarify where I see differences:
Maybe those yetzer tov verah? If you get another person with his two personalities to join in the debate, then it will be 2 against 1.
Yetzer tov cares about 2nd person but not yetzer ra
This is a good lesson in halochos edut … Some witnesses are called, others are not.. with all the excitement, I am not even sure what is a potential charge? Assault on the secret service? Attempted driving without a license? Hate crime?
I am also reminding that Trump was previously accused of lying to his supporters that he will go with them. Turns out he actually tried.
Yes to observing people when they were young… You can do this for free as you are getting older and you can compare people in the younger and older ages. Now you can look at youngsters and predict where they are going
> you cant know what someone would say i
There are gemoras wondering “what would Rav say here”, most likely meaning that they re deducing his decision based on known positions. Same could be done here – as lng as you fairly take into account known positions. My guess that R Ahron would have moved is based on him saying that he established Lakewood on purpose far enough from the main community.
Reb E, there are (were?) some expectations in the society:
Yevamos ~110 talks abut a (rich) blind person who volunteered 400 zuz for a bride, saying that having a wife is a better idea that just hiring a maid .. (thus, he pays twice for getting both in the same person)>> MAJORITY OF BAVLIIM WOULD COME TO THE YESHIVA FOR 2 MONTHS
Kallah was in Adar and Elul. See, for example,
Brochos 17, Rav Ashi on Mata Measiya, see Rashi & tosfos
Bava Metzia 86 about Rabba, see Rashi> Burnout is not exclusive to klei kodesh.
I may be too sensitive here. When someone is burnt out by being a merchant or a doctor, he can still work to provide parnosa to the family and, hopefully, does quality job selling or x-raying. If he is failing, there are systems in place – competition, management that will push him out. When you are learning or teaching (and I lumped in teaching as it is _sometimes_ a consequence of learning and not having other job prospects) – you are failing in Torah or in raising young neshomos. do we have modern mechanisms of quality control here? tests? transparency?
> Why is that shocking?
That a learnt couple of teachers can not get their own kid out of bad situation… other people are not in the position where they are tied to a school job (evek avdut?). The context was that the lady thanked me for taking my kid out – turns out that helped her to convince her husband to do the same (and she previously was a great teacher for my kids, btw)> Do we have mechanisms to prevent workaholic husbands
yes, it is called a wife. A workaholic has a chance to work less. Someone without an occupation and with peer pressure has harder time to change his ways.> How are they not doing it of their own free will?
They may have signed up out of free will, or out of community pressure. They may think it is time to change, but expectations are set and alternatives are scarce. Good tzedoka collectors are sensitive to the customers and try not to pressure people beyond what they really want to give … works well in a long term.you can use Karl Popper’s definition of a “theory” – it has to have plausible data that would disprove it. If a theory can “explain away” any data, it is not really a theory.
In this case, T is accused of “trying to go with the mob”. Previously, when everyone assumed it was his decision not to go – he was accused of provoking them and not even joining them.
Cacn they be hevrusos? Or do different personalities share memory?
Wolf has a good point. We lost neshamot, and we later gained neshamot… Maybe current neshamos are some substitutions for the ones that were lost? Maybe the originals were better? Not sure how much qabalah is allowed in CR.
Also, if you are concerned that your father is from Vilno and mother from Budapest – who says that your father would not have travelled to Budapest during peaceful 20th century and met your mother anyway? bashert is bashert …
for 7 to 10-y.o.s, I was able to claim for several years that you go to sleep at the hour according to the age, so yes, their older siblings stay till 12, but they are “only 8” so should go at 8….
yaakov,
all prices are going up, some may be faster than others, that may be the only difference.maybe more competition than price controls? Or a traditional boycott? Ask your Rav to authorize drinking chalav stam (or rent-a-cow) until prices drop.
It is an interesting illustration – when government distorts the markets, people immediately ask for more regulations to save themselves from previous government mistakes. Hashem yerachem.