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jackk> I quoted the Rasmussen poll. I didn’t say anything else. I quoted the Rasmussen poll. I didn’t say anything else. You really should reserve your mussar for people who straight away lie.
Jackk, thanks for asking. I called your post on Rasmussen “misleading”. Genivat daas is defined when you cause someone to form an untruthful picture of the world.
A classical example is opening a new barrel of wine in honor of a guest. If you ran out of wine and open it when the guest came in … Or students coming for a walk and meeting a teacher. He thanks them for the kavod. They do NOT have to correct his impression, as he is “misleading himself” – there was no logical reason for them to know that he is coming.
In this case, you are quoting a poll – why? To create a certain impression. The poll appears to be an outlier. You could have put a caveat that there is a hopeful poll … I realize that by American standards, your post is pretty kosher, but you are talking here with serious people who would not eat with a heksher that was questionable 30 years ago, so you don’t want to get a bad reputation!
I was just a curious observer of this discussion. That President was not liberal and the speaker was close enough to a Nazi – Farrakhan. I am not trying to argue this or that position, just pointing out that there are different approaches here from the American perspective.
As to Landers college, I think it is great that we are having more different learning institutions. Jewish tradition is to have teachers competing for students.
But please stop counting which school has more Torah learning, this is just unseemly in general, and especially in current circumstances. We have 4 mln American Jews on the way to total assimilation. If some of them can find a place where they can learn according to their level, B’H.
So, Avram, here is your example of what “getting around” is – something that is not usually prosecuted. So far, I saw references to a 19th century Ungarian posek who seemed to approve such approaches based solely on pragmatic outcomes. Maybe Avira is using such psak.
Avram> So this is another example of illegal activity,
> What we are debating is the idea of taking benefits that one is legally entitled to, but you feel is avoidablegood, so we have a lot we agree on. I presume you include all cases where someone works for cash, etc. As you see from the shaila I posted, not everyone is cler on this. In the related discussion, I saw someone mentioning that apparently IRS would not take Israeli yeshiva letter as a proof of income in Israel, but would take from any other business. Apparently, this is based on their experience ..
But let’s analyze the remaining disagreements. Here are some examples, let me know what you think:
1) cases where legal requirements are light and avoidable. I think this would be when recipient of aid is required/expected to look for a job. I don’t know whether they ask, but it might be possible to show 5 letters you mailed last week to satisfy inspectors. I don’t think one needs a BA to get a job, I am sure anyone capable of learning a blatt of gemora can do some productive job.
2) where legal requirements are complicated and rarely enforced. This is what Trump’s accountant just pleaded to – T was “donating” money to his einekle school in lieu of tuition, if I understand it correctly. Another would be when school does not pay salary and teachers do not pay tuition. Not saying it is wrong, but it is not clear for a layman whether this is ok also.
3) where there are no legal requirements, like recent food giveaways. I don’t really know what other benefits are given that do not expect people to look for a job.
in my views, somewhere down the list, it may be OK to take, especially if you have a halachic authority that overrides the references I gave above (nobody brought those to the contrary so far, I’d love to see those), but surely a baal middos should avoid all. Again, presuming he is not actually in need.
Avram > What if you find out that someone else is more machmir or more meikil than your LOR?
I would say – take it back to your LOR to discuss, especially in a case where you are involved financially. Even if you are t’Ch yourself.
Syag > I know you have claimed you homeschool, which of course is truancy and neglect
And if I were neglecting the kids, it would be really good if you were reminding me about that and annoying me. It would be so easy to ignore my problems – who cares about some Yid somewhere. But I am sure, people here would not hesitate to bring up things that they think I do wrong, hopefully with good arguments that will convince me to be better, as we are all orevim ze mize.
So, to answer this question: my state legally allows homeschooling, requiring parents to file a study plan with them (which I think most people ignore). I am, though, not doing that. My school-age kids are in a public online school, were in private Jewish online before and in non-modern Jewish schools before that. Average family GPA is above 4.0, so B’H, they are not in total neglect. Those in college also do fine so far. This is just so that you don’t worry, I hope this is not ayn hara, as we do not know each other personally.
Syag >> “It did not occur to me to continue telling the office that I can’t find a job.”
> why bring this up? Are you now insinuating that someone else did do that?Maybe I am indeed behind on how gov assistance works and I would appreciate explanations. The one that I used, in a conservative state years ago, required one to search for a job, provided me with classes in resume-writing. I think there was an expectation/requirement to do something job-related every week. I looked up current NJ SNAP rules and they also mentioned some employment search requirements, listing groups (like college students) that are exempt.
Are you saying that gov assistance in your state does not expect people to look for a job and take it if they find it? There is Mr. Yang, always candidate for something, who advocates minimal income for everyone. I would say that, depending on how it were worded, this could be an ideal solution for a learner. Hopefully, in ten years, there will be enough workers to support all slackers, but meanwhile we can have 10 years of learning for everyone.
Boruch dayan haemes. Let your family continue in the path of your bubbe and all your illustrious family that we were zoche to learn about from CTL.
These are not easy issues. Someone at my (non-Jewish) university once invited one of the famous sonei isroel as a speaker. Jewish students met in advance to advocate for boycott, protest, disrupting the speech. The Rov, a survivor, gave a passionate speech how the words matter, history of Shoah, etc. Then the school President (Rov’s friend) gave an equally patient speech about academic freedom and assured everyone if they come armed with sharp questions and the speaker will evade them, they should be confident that the college community will see through this and no harm will happen. Whatever it was, nobody observed any increase in anti-semitism on campus after that anti-Semite visit. After that president was gone, it is probably worse now with active woke policies, but not due to his position of neutrality.
What is the lesson here – there might be different approaches here. If YU is built for mature students, there might be no harm from allowing whatever opinions are out there. They are already in the middle of NYC with no adult supervision. Do you see students flocking to those clubs and skipping mincha?
Here is one related teshuva I found:
Question: Someone wishes to make aliya to Eretz Yisrael (to fulfill the mitzvah of settling the land of Israel) but has financial difficulties, and is only able to come if he does not inform the United States Government about his income, which many people do regularly, is it permitted for him to do so or not?Response: I heard from HaGaon Y.S. Elyashiv shlita that it is certainly prohibited to do so (which prohibited because of dina d’malchusa) and it is prohibited even if he will never be able to make aliya to Eretz Yisrael afterwards.
Gadol, 6.5 mln people estimated to die from COVID in the world, probably an undercount in countries like China and India.
Syag > who does so to those levels in regard to other people’s spending.
Syag, first we are not discussing spending, we are discussing taking. 2nd, yes, I am not taking that type of money myself. I once took welfare funds for 2 months when I needed them, and then took the first appropriate job I found. It did not occur to me to continue telling the office that I can’t find a job.
Avira > If we can get around it legally and halachikally, there’s no issue.
Are you suggesting that if we are not using one of the government benefits, then we are entitled to “get around” some other issues?
I do not agree with the premise. You may also not use flood insurance because you live on a hill, or subsidies for veterans because you did not serve. Why does that matter? We live in a country that treats are favorably, better than many many places we lived over centuries. Now, just because you are paying too much property tax or disagree with some government decision, you have a license to misbehave?
2nd, you are free to use some public funds for education. I believe a lot of schools use early education/Title something/transportation/meals and whatever they can get. We are also using charity write-offs for some expenses. I personally, and a small number of yeshivos and BYs, use publicly-funded online education and wherever there is a chashash with the materials, kids point it out before I do.
3rd, I guess we need to define “get around”. Please clarify. It is clearly OK to organize your finances to minimize taxes. Possibly to organize your business profits so that you look poorer on FAFSA. How about SNAP? There are usually requirements for job training and placement. Does this mean that you participate in job training if you, say, fully capable of finding a job? I don’t know whether this is “legal and halakhic”, but does not sound right for me.
Last question that we mention above – we have classical sources rejecting non-Jewish charity (and not using Jewish charity when not needed). Do we have modern poskim addressing how to view modern state payments in this respect.
Avram > If necessary, my local rav would most likely look to the Igros Moshe for that type of shaila. And bringing Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L for an American shaila is not going psak shopping.
Sure! I am just saying that in a personal subject like that, I would not dare look up Igros Moshe myself. What if then I find out that someone else is more machmir, or more meikil. Or maybe I should stop looking after IM as it looks meikel enough. Just saying, this is where you want to depend on a local Rav (and follow local minhag anyway). Not arguing on IM or anything.
Avram > Some segments of U.S. society over-obsess about people receiving welfare benefits. Other segments over-obsess about people “not paying their fair share”.
Within our system, we have both requirements – not to depend on tzedoka when one is able to, and to give when one is able to. I don’t know what is controversial here.
jackk, beautiful vort. Made me think – to what degree this holds. Remembering halakha is less critical our days when you can look it up (does not mean that you should not keep things in your head, but not to the degree of being upset at learning something later in life). Understanding becomes more important. I think in our days, many have the opposite problem: “learning” many things as a kid so well that he does not review it again from a more mature standpoint
He behaves like a supreme judge, departing at dem peak in power so that he could be substituted by his friends. Or maybe out of frustration, when he spoke truth to power during trump, he was seen as hero by some and got ratings second only to T himself. And now when B takes 10 months to authorize vaccine mod, nobody is interested in hearing about it. We all suffer during dem administrations because the criticism is not heard loud enough and Dems suffer too because their fools stay in power, while rep fools get exposed early..
We also see a lot of retirements that started earlier during covid and still continue. It is understandable that those close to retirement chose to shift a couple of years earlier than risk daily exposure. Still, some of them might be hesitant at 60, but might have worked till 80 otherwise. Lots of people contemplate retirement every year but still continue. A possible contributing factor is decrease in private practices as government regulation forced them to sell to big hospitals, and a need to spend most of the time typing in the computer instead of looking at the patient.
moishe,
I am very grateful to US for their support of Israel in general. If you can point me to specific efforts by these two administrations, I’ll do that too. In fact, I quoted here a pre-election Biden’s propaganda piece in Israeli papers, where Israelis acknowledged that Biden was the only person on Obama’s team they were able to talk to – everyone else saw Israel as an “occupier”, while Biden remembered 1973 et al and understood Israeli concerns about self-defense. Obama also was interested in having Israel as an ideological ally, rather than just hating whole country as some progs do. He sent his top election team to undermine Bibi in elections, possibly giving a push to current multi-year deadlock.This seems to be a pattern – according to recent leaks or self-justifications, it seems that Biden himself has the most common sense on his team. He seems to be the last one to agree to the atrocious plan to forgive $20K of student loans and more. Same may be happening with Iran agreement – his team are happy and spending time convincing him.
Obama also gave us an option for cheap health care and for legal adults, such as my kids, to lounge on a couch while still being attached to my, more and more expensive, insurance plan.
huju, adaraba, anything that is worth saying once, is worth saying twice
common, I don’t think litvishe T’Ch in Israel are into car status, nor were they in Lita. Vilna Gaon was not spending much on gas (or barley), would make GH happy.
spot on> There are many avenues Hashem may take for the Geulah. It need not come about through the state.
I totally agree, and I am also not comfortable with people publicly davening with words asserting certain status. How do they know?! On the other hand, the hope and aspiration are entirely understandable and it is not natural to ignore such a tremendous change in Jewish life as a whole country populated by Jews in EY. Just go stand near (not under) Arc of Titus in Rome to see IVDAEA CAPTA written there and laugh at dead Romans (like R Shapiro z’L did in 1967 on the way back from 6-day war).
Orange > agree that like-mindedness is more important than nusach, money, or ivy status
but how does one find this out in “shiduch resume”, or does this approach requires a different search model? If I may compare this to an academic job search. When in grad school, I saw a position that matched my research interest. I got no response. A year later, I am eating lunch with a Jewish professor from that department and we are doing a good hevrusa on that research topic. So, I ask him – were you on the search committee? He says – yes. So, I ask – why did you then reject me? He says – I never saw your resume, secretary rejected it because you are not from an Ivy. I am so thankful to this guy for the useful information that steered me in a better direction.
Avira > for a man to marry a wan from a less well-to-do background.
oi vei. To the intended point: girls would exchange dresses by Tu B’Av, but to a degree – king’s daughter with Kohen Gadol’s … same here – “less well to do” … So, a guy with 10 shoe stores should marry someone with 2 shoe stores.
Now, you can ask – if every man marries “less well to do”, what is gonna happen with smartest/richest girls and poorest boys?! A possible answer is – this advise is addressed to the top layer of Talmidei Chachamim (who learn this Gemora). Now, it is a biological fact that male species have more variability than female. Ie. there are more super-smart men and super-stupid men, super-angry and super-calm … [you may find this observation to explain a lot of things in life …] So, the top level of T’Ch need to go a little lower, but a below-average men will probably get wives that are smarter than them. May be a punishment to both.
moishe, in simpler words: ingratitude is bad trait. Non-Jewish. If someone did something for you, you need to be thankful (even if the person did it in his interest). Let me know if this is self-evident or you need a source sheet.
I think this meets definition of a monopoly. Not all industries are easy for competition, but less and less so. We used to have phone monopoly. At&t produced wonderful phones that attached beautifully to the wall and always worked. Nobody wants them anymore somehow/ Do you think if AT&T stayed a monopoly we would have phones in the pockets, sending pictures and messages around, for better or worse? Similar problems are in defense. In all cases, if you focus on market solutions, you can always find some ideas to try, and from experience, there is “nothing to lose”. For example, there is an idea of having insurance work across state lines. Who can be against it? (except the monopolists).
I don’t know what would have happened with Jews in Arab countries in 1930-50s, I agree that their fate became worse by a connection with Israel. But look a little longer -transformation of Middle East over the century is not much related to Jews. Yes, all these countries talk about Jews and Israel all the time, but mostly to keep population entertained and angry at someone else.
So, think how Jews would feel under any of the regimes of last 50 years – socialist murderers on Syria, Iraq, Libya; Iranian islamists, Yemen civil war. How many Jews will be paraded in orange jumpsuits by ISIS? Maybe they would be OK in Egypt, Morocco, Tunis, Jordan.
Avria, Zushy, I am not questioning any stories, all I am saying that the pilot story is questioned because some of Teimeni Jews ended with a tragedy. This is like saying that Netziv was wrong protesting Russian infiltration of the Volozhin yeshiva because Russian revolution would soon sweep away both the Czar and the yeshivos. “Oh, you know Talmidei Chachamim who survived and went to other countries?! So, you don’t care about all those Jews who were killed in Russia” This is clearly a silly argument because you can point to all yeshivos that came out of Volozhin derech, but as you don’t know many Teimenims and they all one big news-story for you. They are way above just a reason for your pity and attack weapon against your enemy. Follow Menachem Begin who when visiting Sephardim refugees, instead of pitying them (affirmative action style), appealed to their higher side – you are the people who came from Rambam, etc.
This post seem to be annual at Rosh Hodesh Elul or something, both parents and teachers scared of starting the school year … hatzlaha
> Do you have any idea how insulting your statements are to the survivors of spiritual murder
the question is based on a premise that a Jew saved from Yemen had surely went to gehinom, effort wasted. I am saying this premise is wrong, I am not making fun of anyone. a de raba, he is treating people as abstract material for the political stories. Would you similarly say that it was not worth liberating Jews from Nazi camps or demonstrating for Soviet Jews because a sizeable number of those assimilated when freed?
Avira > Daas baaleibatim – marry the same socio-economic class
This is a generic advice I heard from several Rabonim from different nusachim. As one of them put it: men and women are different enough by itself, don’t need other problems.
I am not sure I 100% agree with that, but would not call this balabatish. Where I do differ is that maybe middos and types of thinking are more important than nusach, money, or ivy status.
No wonder Mordecai lost his Sanhedrin rank after getting involved in politics. Making sholom between Israel and several of it’s enemies is not enough zechut to allow for some other disagreements?! This is not good enough even if double standard is your only one
Refuah shleima to Mrs. CTL.
But it seems most large urban areas are more predictable and to the worse side…
And then you have patients who complain for the lack of salt. You should know if you overuse salt, then you stop tasting normal amounts. And also know this is one of the first questions a (good) cardiologist will ask – do you have a salt-shaker on your table.
This discussion raises a question. It is considered a mitzvah in this country to minimize taxes paid, take all possible deductions, hopefully stopping before gray area… This is not same as using services for poor, hope you are, but let me know.
These items are comingling more and more, and on purpose. Clinton initiated “credits” that exceed taxes paid which others called disguised welfare, while proponents counted against payroll taxes paid elsewhere… By now, you get so many transfer payments that it is hard to track. For example, what is taking a loan to get a degree and then enrolling into Obama’s low payment program that was just enhanced and get loans cancelled. Is this kosher, or only because everyone is doing it. As little girl retorted to r Yehoshua regarding a shortcut through a field, gazlanim like you made it
I’ve seen Teimeni Jews with peyos. And they are pronouncing Ayn, so they were not raised by chasidim. So, maybe those terrible stories had some Guzma ..
For those who lament Sephardim coming to Israel, think what would happen with them under Asad, Qaddafi, Saddam, Yemen civil war, ISIS… You want to see Jewish girls sold into slavery and boys learning to slit throats?
There were different nonJews, some would be motivated by proselytizing, others for saving lives … There are hard cases,.. one of my relatives left her blonde son with a neighbor, telling her that if something happens with the boy she’ll report the neighbors Jewish husband …. The boy survived
I brought sources not as ultimate answer but for a discussion and to highlight the issue. Please bring modern teshuvos and let’s see how we got from one to another. Stop complaining about me quoting S A, there are worse crimes here!!
Rw, I think there are way more obscure expressions in nach, not even counting Aramaic.. maybe some native speakers of modern Hebrew can tell us which one is closer?
Avram, I mentioned local Rav not r Moshe because you want to be sure you get unbiased advice. If you read r Moshe and then read someone else paskening differently, how do you know you didn’t select the cheapest option? Unless you always go by IM.
I see what you are saying about taxes. This is an argument that welfare is not my community charity. Otherwise you could claim you fulfill tzedoka through IRS… I see welfare as nonJewish collective charity. Note that they let you to sometimes subtract your charity from taxes, do they see the kesher. Politically, people definitely see difference between types of spending. Most people are okay going getting unemployment and social security, but many wouldn’t sign up for subsidies for the poor and look down at people who use those without a need. This may be old fashioned and outdated, but I think it still exists.
I agree that the fact this is not coming from a king may changes that SA refusal to use the funds. But it could cut both ways. As stealing from a tzibur is hard to atone for. So, if you inappropriately spent NJ funds, you got to go to all towns and build water fountains there!? It maybe sakanah
When discussing geula, you may be mislead by history: we know when and how we left mitzraim, how many years in bavel, why beis hamikdash was destroyed.. note that all of that is post factum, even when there was direct communication with Hashem before that. So, all heshbonos we have for geula might appear in a different light in reality. Say, in 1967, maybe tzahal would have gone to har habait, a red cow would be walking around, a stray cannon or a worm collapse the mosque, or mosque leaders come out with their own karbonot in hand. … So it doesn’t have to require a lot of time ..
Moishe, try using this approach when saying morning brochos: shoes hurt today, so skipping kol tzarki, back hurts, so much work feel like an even. Ingratitude is a bigger problem than even TDS
RebE, in some sort of engineering. Math and machine learning work the same for bridges and airplanes.. ctlawyer, right how do you know someone went to Harvard? It’s the first thing they tell you. Most research shows the value of ivy etc is in signaling to the employer that this person probably had high sat score. Instead of direct test that would often be illegal.
Is it worth going there? I would say either if you are poor enough to qualify for aid; plan to be a workaholic so that all these connections matter; and you live at home or with a group of observant students, and have enough of political maturity not to be swept by ideology that is strongest at best places. Everyone else should be at YU, Touro, strong local college or strong online college. In no particular order. Clep mills are other extreme to avoid, you are trying to get an education not just a line on the resume
So, Yidden with medical degrees should go work in areas where Yidden live, and Yidden in areas where there are not enough doctors, should go get medical degrees.
Rebbi should not have taught the lesson when he was personally offended. He should have noted a problem, then find a time when the kid offends someone else and teach him then.
RW > why nach and Mishna are written in a much simpler tongue than Torah.
Where are holding in Nach to say this?! Mishna is cliff notes of scholarly discussions, not necessarily full spoken language, even if it brings examples of common speech.
Look carefully at teshuvot that discuss in-person communication, such as Igros Moshe: is he mentioning an alternative of answering teshuvos in writing? As most of warning is regarding voice, talking, looking, it is obvious that writing is preferred. If there are some restrictions on writing, the poskim should be mentioning those. But this is for necessary discussion. The biggest question on CR would be for silly discussions…
There is also a halakhic consideration of derech eretz that overrides extreme precautions. If you are in a society where people talk, then you should say shabbat shalom and mazal tov; if you live in a shtetl where this is not done, then don’t (most poskim, check with your own). So, ignoring a reasonable post by a lady may qualify as an offense against derech eretz.
common, you are talking different centuries. People looked way closer at your time. Nowadays, there are now 2-3 times more people attending college. Observant people from Jewish schools work in many places already and either are a testimony or a facilitator for the younger ones.
My experience is similar to yours: I was a butt of (friendly) jokes in my first post-grad workplace – I was the first hire whose PhD was not from top three schools in the industry. Now, that firm routinely hires PhDs from my school, not sure whether I started the trend or, more likely, they lowered the standards. As for me, that was the only time when the school was looked at.
Gadol,
there is a real problem here – uneducated masses would improve their life by better education and they may or may not achieve that by going to college and then having debt (after also getting grants).Let’s see what would be a reasonable “investment”:
– identify productive majors and schools based on school previous track record.
– before someone goes to school, provide him low-cost subsidized insurance: if someone goes into an approved school/major and then does not succeed, then his loans are partially forgiven.
This would let people take (reasonable) personal risk, benefit if they succeed and not be total losers if they don’t.There is also a private market solution, that there are some limited experiments on:
– investors pay for school (partially or fully) in return for a percentage of future earnings. These could be school themselves or separate investors.
Not sure how easy to push this further given all the giveaways.Gadol > social welfare transfer programs
Social welfare? I thought it is inflation reduction 🙂 If I can speak for all (200 mln) of us, this is very grating for some many reasons:
it is a transparent giveaway of common funds to interest groups, timed to elections, attempted to look like benign: President before said that he will consider “up to 10K” – so the headline is 10K, then another 10K for many, then another several perks, some with special preferences for government workers, so that nobody really knows the price and details, without Congress, with insane moral hazard and unfairness, and zero positive effect on improving future policies.
It is beyond anything King George was accused of, more like late Roman Emperors who were increasing Legions’ pay to keep them happy.
Iamhappy> I do know people who got into Ivy League schools with these degrees
Me too. Based on what common is saying, maybe they had some additional leg up? Super high LSAT? Internships that their parents helped to find? Sympathetic professors aware of those yeshivos?
> I also know people who gotten into the B schools and in a way they got better offers cuz they were top in those law or graduate schools as opposed to being in the middle or bottom of Harvard or Yale.
This is confusing, could you explain? Are you saying, a good rank at the yeshiva helped (do yeshiva even give ranks to grad schools?!) Or do you mean job offers after being top in grad school? Agree on this, your undergrad does not matter after your grad school.