besalel

yekke: there are some who believe that everyone in the world should be learning and not working. you think they are wrong but you need to be considerate and tolerant of this view even if you disagree and think its wrong. similarly, rav yoel believed that the state of israel is a frustration of gods will. i may think that the dass torah which disagrees is right and that rav yoel is wrong but how can i disagree with rav yoel? i cant. i need to be tolerant of this view even if i disagree and not only that but love the jews who subscribe to this view.

i need to accept that there are beliefs i accept as true but i can’t foreclose the possibility that i am wrong and they are right. in other words, i believe in what i do but i cant say there is no other way.

there is right and wrong but you shouldnt be so sure of your rightness that you become intolerant of a view you think is wrong.

the only positions that i am intolerant of are those which justify evil and are therefore a chillul hashem. a position that its permitted to steal or kill or injure, for example.

we should be able to debate our viewpoints without being intolerant of another’s. the key is to love every jew and treat every person with respect. disagreements have always been part of the jewish dialogue. there is no reason to frustrate disagreements but there is no reason to be intolerant either.

if in the rambam’s time there were already at least four different world views, who are we to regrind ground flour? in my small view, the torah is not a “how to get into heaven for dummies” guide but a guide on how to live a rich life on earth. people disagreed with this view 900 years ago and there will be those who disagree today.

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Perek Tet Zayin.

apushita: its not that i havent seen explanations is that the explanations dont always seem the most plausible. i see toast.

haleivi: to support your point, the tiferes yisroel explains a mishna which speaks out against sichas yeludim, as speaking out against humor which is “light headed babble” and that good humor would be one which you can learn something from it.

on the other hand, we have some stories that really do not come to teach any apparent lesson. for example, a gemoro in shabbis which relates a story of a mother in law pulling the ultimate punking of her daughter in law by getting the daughter in law to light herself on fire. seems hard to find a lesson there. or a gemoro in bava kamma which says chanan bija who couldnt find someone to make change for an old zuz in order to pay someone half a zuz which he owed as a penalty to someone he hit so he fixes the problem by hitting the victim a second time in order to pay him a full zuz. lesson? or the story in sota where the gemara says ever since rebbe died there are no anuvim left in the world and rav yosef says “what about me?” looks like a joke for the purpose of a joke. there are other examples.

maybe its a cultural thing. i think if you look at real sfardishe baalei shiyur like rabbi yosef, ztl, there is humor spread out throughout the shiyurim. it plays a big role. seems to me that culturally, that part of the world had humor as a very regular part of life. conversely, rabbi yisroel salant, listed 13 important values in life and did not include humor as one of them. the gaon, who came from lita also refused to see idle humor in shas (and for example, explains rav yosef’s statement to be talking about someone named ‘anna’ and not that rav yosef was trying to be funny. and explains sasson and simcha to be teaching a deeper lesson.)

or maybe there are some that are like this (lesson teaching jokes) and some are like that (just jokes) and some of those that i fail to see a lesson in its because i havent delved into them enough. or maybe all of them have lessons. i am open to the idea that my theory is wrong and that i just need more convincing. i dont pretend that i am always right.

Haleivi: I believe the purpose of both story one and story two is to be humorous. We have enough instances throughout shas where the purpose is to be humorous or entertaining that I am ok seeing the toast and not the Jesus. Of course there are those that see the Jesus and I am not there to argue with them and tell them I’m right and you’re wrong. I’m just saying I see toast. Of course not all aggaditeh are meant that way but many are.

haleivi: it does not trouble me greatly to believe that the gmara wasnt precise in its recollection of a story that does not perform a haluchaic function. i understand that there are some (many) who disagree. i, personally, would need much more “of a reason” (to use your words) to change a girsa which implicates haluchu.

although i havent seen this explanation anywhere i dont think its unreasonable to conclude that the gemara quoting sasson and simcha as heretics was a typo. i say this because there is nothing heretical in what they say and the very next story is about a heretic with the same name. i think its not unreasonable to conclude that the heretic is only in story two and the identification of these men as heretics in story one is a typo. again, this is not a pshat i have seen anywhere – just personal reflections.

in the times of the second beis hamikdash we had the abtinas family and the garmo family. today we have shietel machers, those who sell matzo and arba minim in their place.

So I sat down with my boys to watch the film. Absolutely brilliant. The music was incredible. The storyline was genius. The script was fantastic. The only negative thing I can say is the animation was not perfect but knowing how time consuming and expensive animation can be you can’t blame them. And it genuinely seems like the producers considered the possibility that kids will be influenced negatively and made a concerted effort to avoid the problem. The film was an absolute home run and I hope it becomes successful enough to warrant further productions.

whats troubling is not the ban itself. the rabbonim are certainly entitled to their position. what saddens me is the language used in the ban “divoeineninu vedivoin eneinu” calling the script “marid” and using the term “racmunu litzlnun” isnt that overkill? wouldnt it be more rational and measured to simply state – we dont believe you should buy this. why all the drama? at some point people are going to stop running to the call of wolf.

Logician said: There are very clear statements that certain Gedlom advised against emigration to America DESPITE the obvious dangers in Europe.

I heard the following story from someone who was present. Rav Zelig Epstein ztl, once recounted that certain individuals within Mir were scared of the situation as it was unfolding before WWII and found a way to get papers to go to China. They asked the roshei yeshivos at the Mir what to do and were told not to get the papers to China because everything was going to turn out okay in Europe. The bochrim went out and got the papers anyway. When things got bad they were able to get everyone out. When Rav Zelig was telling this story the listeners asked him how could the Mir Bochrim do such a thing and go against “daas torah.” he responded by saying, “this story happened before daas torah was invented.”

I would like to take issue with the term HaKatan uses for the army which is shmad, or to destroy. The term has historically meant to make someone not observant anymore. It is probably true that the army causes one to lose his or her chareidi culture (or furthers a decision by one to do so) but it is not fair to call someone who is no longer chareidi as destroyed. I do not mean to minimize the loss of someone’s chariediness as someone who has a deeply-held, sincere, religious belief should not be forced to walk away from it. For someone who is chareidi it is a tragedy to make them no longer chareidi. But it is not shmad or destruction for that person to become an observant non-chareidi. nor do i take any position about the “share the burden” legislation as I hear both sides, am not intimately involved or familiar with the law and am confused about the whole thing myself. but calling it shmad is wrong. i grew up in a chassidishe environment and have rachmunu litzlan seen many of my classmates/friends go on to completely lose their religion. these kids’ parents would be thrilled if their children were now no longer chassidic but observant. what has happened to them is shmad. losing your chareidiness, while tragic in its own way, is not shmad. since so many of those who serve in the army come out observant using the term shmad is offensive because it suggests that anyone who is not chareidi is “destroyed.” this is not fair and inflammatory.

a juvenile and uneducated way to understand chumash is to accept medrash aggada as pshat, disregard all authorities except rashi and explain the words in a way that contravene common sense. it is also a fallacy to believe that the avos were malachim and not people and that they did not not have human emotions.

I agree. Is there a lack of graves in Europe that they brought us to this desert to die? I remember the fish we used to eat for free in Europe. And we had all the cucumbers, melons, leeks, onions, and garlic we wanted. If only we had died in the land of Europe, or if only we might die in this wilderness! Why is the Lord taking us to that land to fall by the sword? Our wives and children will be carried off! It would be better for us to go back to Europe! Let us head back for Europe.

the pilpul learning done nowadays in most yeshivas (at least in america) is very entertaining but not how learning was historically done. all those mnemonics you see all over shas are there because the whole point of learning was to remember it – not necessarily dissect it and forget it like is done today.

Bais Yaakov Maidel: it seems like you are unhappy in your lot. i think the torah probably wants a jew to be happy more than anything else. if i had daughters i would want them to choose a path that they will be happy in and that is what i will want for my sons too. if they will want to learn then to use that path if they want to be an akeres habayis then that path if they want to be a cardiologist then that path and if they want to be a brick layer then that path.

and i also agree with logician. yes, torah learning when used for the better good is intrinsically valuable and women can contribute towards that value by being enablers but a womans value (or a mans value) is not limited to this particular intrinsically good mitzvah and learning torah or being an enabler for someone to learn can also make you an “unaccomplished” jew depending on other factors. a person who is honest in his or her dealings, makes a kiddish hashem wherever he or she goes and is mechazek the rabbim can also be a very accomplished yid. in other words, bais yaakov maidel’s premise that she can only be an accomplished jew vicariously is only true in a world where the only way a jew can become accomplished is by learning torah. this is unfortunately what the bais yaakovs (of all places) teach.

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there are also many mamrey chazal which derides the ones who only learns and does nothing with it. i will try to look them up and quote them here.

i’d prefer not to believe in gilgulim but there are certain events that are difficult to understand without the concept of gilgulim. i guess, as a whole, i am agnostic about gilgulim.

oomis: in such a case it would be okay if the water boiler never went to 110 at all during shabbos not just when the water is going in. i heard of someone who rigged his system exactly as you describe.

DY, Berlin, etc: grommo is ussur mdirabunun. many great talmidei chachumim matired electricity use on shabbos and yuntiff. the olam didnt agree (and the tzad hetr was based on faulty science in any event).

just to set the record straight: i dont believe that giving a shadhchin $1,000 to show your hakuris hatov is too much if you can afford it. i just think its absurd to think of shadhunis as a business. it is disgusting. its like being a kidney broker. it is sick. if chas visholim i needed a kidney and someone made a shiddich for me i would be’ahava give that person a reward but kidney brokers are scum. if we, in our world, cannot see that, something has gone awfully wrong with us.

Daas Yochid,

If you take a look at the back and forth from two years ago you will see that it was actually AZ who suggested, in response to suggestions that it was a scam, that the success of the program will be the arbiter.

I do not doubt that many sincere people contributed to the program and that many very righteous men were part of that team but ultimately, I have little doubt that the program was driven by greedy shadchunim who managed to use a good cause and manipulate good people into an evil endeavor.

the gemoro is brochis says dovid hamelech woke up at midnight to do thillim. the mekubulim say this is because night time is not right for rachamim but is a time for din. for the same reason, we lehaluchu dont do slichis in tishrei until chatzoys or during the day.

as the introduction in the artscroll says, the reason shkulim was included in the cycle was because the vilna shas used to print shkulim with bavli. the cycle is based on what the printer included in the volumes and what it did not.

with respect to yerushalmi aramaic versus bavli: (1) as stated before, aramaic was the language of israel in those days (see, mel gibson, passion of the christ) (2) as stated before, the dialects differed.

it is also important to note that both gemaras are essentially a collection of peoples notes. the notes collected for yerushalmi were reprinted in a form much closer to its original. there was less editing. hence, yerushalmi appears in shorthand.

as stated above, the bavli went through extensive editing over the years and evolved to what you see today. the yerushalmi is less evolved.