besalel

Much has been said about the failure of the yeshiva system to bequeth its talmidim with a secular education. Not enough has been said about its failures in giving a true torah education. Usually everyone can agree that the bnei yeshiva are of impeccable middos and derech eretz. With some unfortunately this too has eluded them.

Both sides are to blame, actually. The government knows that the army does not need or want chareidi soldiers and is only pushing this agenda in order to stomp on the chareidim. on the other hand, the chareidim are not interested in a compromise even if it were to benefit their communities and dig them out of poverty. i am not sure which side is reacting to the unreasonableness of the other.

Ben Levi: cant the intrinsic value simply be that it is something that gives a person great joy on life? I imagine that first and foremost the Torah’s intention is to make us live a happy life. a person who would enjoy living if she practiced a certain career would see great intrinsic value in a career.

As for those who have argued (and believe it or not I have seen the argument) that it is not very important for the Torah whether or not the person is happy, I suggest you begin by reading Devarim and see all promises made to those who keep the Torah. It is not “you will get to heaven.” Not once is that even mentioned. Sometimes common sense needs to prevail. Of course the Torah wants you first and foremost to be happy.

Of course the Torah prescribes to you what you need to do in order to live a happy life but “be a housewife and not a [dentist/accountant/brick layer]” is not among the Torah prescriptions. The Torah wants you to live a happy/Torah life as a [housewife/dentist/accountant/brick layer] and in many ways finding out what makes you happy in life is the first step in keeping a Torah life.

oomis: i am not a fan of censorship either but this particular website needs to be cognizant of possible chillul hashem and i think the threat of chillul hashem is great enough to warrant censorship. you may disagree with the method by which discretion may have been used but you are not the one with the burden of this great task either. some leeway must be given to the moderators to make the wrong call sometimes.

apikorsus. i see. is that the 14th principle of faith? oh wait. wearing furry hats is the 14th principle. this must be the 15th. or is the 15th the one about the iphones? i get confused.

unfortunately, my employment has kept me from responding meaningfully. someone who sits and learns in order to “pad his stats” for olam habba is derided by chazal. Kiddushin 40b, Megillah 27a; Kiddushin 40b; Bava Kama 17a, Berachot 17a, Yevamot 109b. there are others.

a guy who says im going to learn and does not use it to teach is compared to a desert rose (which no one can enjoy). rav yochanan says that somewhere. i dont remember the mekor for that one.

if you believe that a pushete yid cannot be as accomplished as any other jew youve missed the whole point of our torah. bais yaakov maidel who puts down cleaning ladies would do herself a favor reevaluating how she judges people’s worth and those who have taught her need to rid themselves of their william zanzinger mentality.

Bais Yaakov Maidle: I think you may have a different value of “accomplishment” than the Torah does. It is not really your fault as most BY and yeshivas brained washed a generation to believe that a person’s accomplishment is how much torah they will learn. This is not a Torah value. a person’s accomplishments comes from how positively he has affected his community. a person who sits and learns but never teaches torah or good middos to anyone else is valueless. a cab driver is more valuable to society than a person that just sits and learns and does not use any of that towards the betterment of society.

in the torah society you can accomplish a lot of good in many different ways. ?????????? ???????????, ?????????? ?????????????, ????, ????? ??????????. ???????? ?????????–????????, ?????? ???????? ?????????: ??????? ???????, ??? ?????? ????????

once you realize that accomplishments can come in many different forms you will see that the guy who knows of all of shas may also not be accomplished and the woman who is sincere in her faith and raises the next generation of god fearing jews is far more accomplished.

when i read this part of a tshuve i thought of this thread and this forum in general.

,??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ,????? ?? ?? ????? ?? ?? ?? ???? ???? ??????, ???? ???? ??? ????? ,?? ????? ??? ?? ????? ,?????? (-????”? ??? ?”? ?????) ????? ?????? ????? ?? ???? .?????? -?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???????? ,????? ?????? ???’ ,????? ,?? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?????[ ,???? ??? ???? ???? ????”? ??????????? ???????? ,????? ????? ??’ ??? ??? ,??????”? ??’ ??? ,???’ ????? ??? (?? ?”? ???-???) ,?”?] ,?? ???-??? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ??????? ??”? ??? ???? ,????? ?????? ,??? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???????? ,?”???? ?????” ,??”?????? ???”? ?? ?? ????” ,?????? ,??? ??? ???? ????? ?”? ??”? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ,????? ???? ????? ?? ?? ??????? ??? ?? ?????? -????? ?? ??”?[ .???? ?? ?? ????? (?”? ?????) -?????? ???????? (??”? ?????) ??? ???? -???? ??? ???? ,????? ,?????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ,???? ??? (??”?) ?”???????” ????? ?????? ????? ????? ????]. ?????? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ??????? ????? ?? ???

DY: try and try again you will not get me to chas vesholim say anything against the rama hakadoish. the part where we believe that our lack of derekh eretz is rooted in haluchu, i get. i just dont know how we got here.

what is starting to bother me so much about the heimish community is how far detached from reality we have become that we have lost sight of basic human decency sometimes. I sometimes wonder when did it happen that basic human decency was replaced by our heimish subculture. I find it in complete lack of taste for a shadchan to demand money that even debating the issue is in poor taste. for so many people to be gung ho about insisting that shadchanim must be paid “like caterers and florists” is just nauseating. can you imagine what someone from the outside would think when looking at us? that all we care about is money, money, money. even on mitzvis we look to make money. what ever did happen to us? but i guess when no one protested esrogim at hundreds of dollars and matzos at dozens of dollars per pound, sheitles at thousands of dollars – we started down this slippery slope where it is okay for people to think that not only can they make a living off of mitzvis but become rich off of it. what ever happened to doing things because it is a mitzveh? what ever happened to us?

If you've read "NASI Project Responds", have you changed your mind?

Two years ago, when the project came out, AZ said ,”I think we’ve beaten this bush to death and now we will let the results do the talking.”

In reply I stated, “AZ makes one good point: time will tell a lot. if the folks at nasi become filthy rich, as they hope, then obviously nasi has filled a void that actually existed. if they fall flat then we learn, in hindsight, where these folks were coming from – just using scare tactics to make money off of people’s fears and weaknesses.”

Add to that 5 engagements (how many marriages?) in 2 years and there is zero evidence that this program was anything other than another scam perpetrated by people who need to find a real job but cannot because they do not offer anything worthwhile to society.

i do not think its a bad idea to tell her “look, i cant force you to clean but i will be unhappy living in an unkept home. what would be more difficult for you, cleaning or living with an unhappy husband?” marriage is about sacrifice (and taking the lesser of two evils sometimes)

Dear Chasson,

I was not sure what to write to you so I thought – with this being the most special day in our lifelong bonding, and all- that i should have strangers from the forum at yeshiva world write it for me. they said i should tell you i like you but truth be told i am not sure i even know what that means. i know i like liking you and like even better you liking me. they said i should tell you how much i cant wait to be your wife but i guess i dont really know what that is going to be like either. no one truly does on their wedding day. so thats pretty much it, i guess.

like,

lovehashem

p.s. call misaskim hotline 24 hours a day 7 days a week.

his brother, who was recently niftar, was named naim ovadia. ovadia was the last name. in addition, maran is named abdulrahim yousef and his jewish name is ovadia yosef. his full name was therefore ovadia yosef ovadia. he dropped the second ovadia and adopted his middle name as his last name making it ovadia yosef. rav reuven elbaz who is a very sweet and genuine talmid chuchum added chaim to the beginning making his full hebrew name chaim ovadia yosef. i have this sneaking suspicion that when maran gets back he will drop the chaim as he is was well known to have had a different approach towards naming than rav elbaz. i can only chuckle as i envision maran’s reaction to the idea that rav elbaz added chaim to his name. his mother’s name was georgia as in the state which was a common name is baghdad.

i am generally considered a liberal democrat as are most new yorkers. that being said, one thing the past few decades have proved is that new yorkers are also very smart when it comes down to who will get their vote for mayor and do not automatically vote for the liberal democrat. new yorker vote for whomever will do the best job and as such i foresee lhota in a landslide.

“of course i cannot tell you what to do. but i do love you and want to help you make decisions which are best for you. you are an adult now and there are many adults out there, 18 years old, 28 years old, 38 years old and 98 years old who make terrible choice every single day. it is their right just like it is your right. and i cannot and do not wish to control your decisions. but as someone who loves you more than anyone else in the world and who wishes to see nothing but the best for you, as well as someone who has learned from my own mistakes and from the mistakes of others over the years, i wish to offer you what i believe are the best options for you and i pray and hope that with your free will you choose to consider my advice, which comes from a combination of my love for you and my years of experience, as you form your own destiny”

You’ve all heard of Godwin’s Rule of Nazi Analogies. I think on YWN there is a CR Rule of NK Analogies. The longer any discussion about any topic progresses the greater likelihood NK name will be invoked. Which actually just makes it one more thing NK and the Nazis have in common.

i believe we are all MO. Not what MO has become but what modern orthodoxy teaches. Prior to the modern orthodoxy renaissance, the frum velt believed that it is inappropriate for a frum yid to study secular sciences and math and that everything you need in life can be obtained from the study of torah. modern orthodoxy preached that we should study the secular studies in order to be able to live in the modern world and earn money and provide for our families. (there is a branch that believed in studying secular studies lishma but main stream modern orthodoxy preached it only in order to be able to learn a vocation). while many stood against this idea when it was first promulgated, today, everyone agrees that a secular education is vital. only in those chassidhe schools where secular education is not taught and in israel where “core subjects” are not taught, all frum main stream jews gain a secular education through high school and a majority through college of some sort.

in that sense we are all MO.

what has become of “modern orthodoxy” with its ideals of “moderation” and laxity in certain areas of the torah is not what MO was originally touted as being.

i suggest that those who bash MO should read the literature about it and see if they really disagree with the ideals instead of looking at those who label themselves MO and notice how different they are.

Kanoi: you hate the Zionists, many (most?) jews are Zionists, you hate many (most?) jews, an anti-Semite hates jews, you are an anti-Semite.

but that is not even what i meant: what i meant was most people who tell you they are anti-Zionist really mean they hate Judaism and Jews who identify as Jewish. Like Ahmadinejad who says he is not anti-Jewish but anti-Zionist. This is not true. In his heart he hates Judaism and those who identify with it. Same with Jewish people like Noam Chomsky or Norm Finklestein. Same with “religious” (looking) Jewish people. an anti-Semite is an anti-Semite is an anti-Semite. May they all be destroyed soon.

sure, there are (few) exceptions, that is why i called it a general rule. and then there is Satmar which is outside this conversation.

i am staring at a quote that says exactly that by Rabbi Yechezkel Levenstein on page pey hey of the ponovich hagadah.

bure and mactavish, with one and six tenth seconds, puck is dropped, mactavish controls and its all over, the new york rangers have won the stanley cup, something that most people did not think they would hear in their lifetime.

vogue: this is a greater problem for people who do not have a strong family bond. every institution in the world whether it be BY, Yeshiva, college, graduate school, societies, clubs, etc. will try to impart upon you its own brand and even within each institution you will find individuals who will go beyond and feed you extremist views. This isnt a BY problem. If you come in with strong family hashkofos these hashkofos will teach you how to filter the grains from the husks and allow you to grow in any environment.

look at comment #8 in this article.

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=155509

you figured out pshat?

i think we begin a very slippery slope when we start judging how “orthodox” someone is and if we were to put ourselves to such a test who knows how we will fare. there will always be someone who thinks you are not orthodox enough. and some people are openly one way but secretly another so who knows! in any event, some of them are chareidi, such as Dov Lipman and chareidi zionist such as eli ben dahan.

i absolutely loved this gem from akuperma: “If you don’t have a career you aspire to, and only aspire to have a high salary, you should stay in yeshiva until you are mature enough to go to the outside world.” so true.